Comments on a few class houserules

[Zobo]

Hello!

I have a few thoughts about some classes. Generally, I want to make the later levels of classes (Beyond 5th) more interesting, possibly reduce the power of early levels to discourage dipping too much.

Fighter - Champion.
This is a rather simple class. It doesn't really have a niche; Contrast it to battlemaster with battlefield control and Eldritch Knight with spells for more battlefield stuff but also some non-combat utility.

How about Champion is the Fighter's skill monkey path? It wouldn't make it more powerful in the battlefield, and would make it the one to pick for some types of players.
First, the 6th level remarkable athlete is a goner. Replace it with Skill Expertise, just like the rogue. Also, whenever you gain any champion power you also receive one free proficiency in a skill, language or tool usage.

--

Paladin: Change the smite power. Divine smite is 2nd paladin level ability.
Currently, when you gain it it will scale with used spell slot. No more. At paladin level 2 smite will do +2d8 radiant damage on a smite despite the spell level used.
The ability to benefit from higher level spell slots to increased smite damage is acquired at the levels paladin gains those higher spell slots.
Paladin gains 2nd level spells at paladin level 5. At Paladin level 5 you therefore gain the ability to use 2nd level spells to smite for +3d8 damage.
Similarily for 9th paladin level for ability to use 3rd spell level for +4d8 smites.
Finally, at 13th paladin level you can use 4th spell level slot for +5d8 smite damage.

So, a single class paladin has no change. Multi-class paladins, however, will not be smiting as powerfully as they used to, thought probably they will have more smite usages from more spell slots.

So, are these changes ones you find good, bad or ugly? Why?

Thanks, Z.

Edited: Further clarification on how paladin smite change works.

[DarkKnightJin]

Hello!

I have a few thoughts about some classes. Generally, I want to make the later levels of classes (Beyond 5th) more interesting, possibly reduce the power of early levels to discourage dipping too much.

Fighter - Champion.
This is a rather simple class. It doesn't really have a niche; Contrast it to battlemaster with battlefield control and Eldritch Knight with spells for more battlefield stuff but also some non-combat utility.

How about Champion is the Fighter's skill monkey path? It wouldn't make it more powerful in the battlefield, and would make it the one to pick for some types of players.
First, the 6th level remarkable athlete is a goner. Replace it with Skill Expertise, just like the rogue. Also, whenever you gain any champion power you also receive one free proficiency in a skill, language or tool usage.

--

Paladin: Change the smite power. When you gain it, it merely allows you to use a spell slot to infuse your strike with +2d8 radiant damage. At paladin level 5, you gain the extra power to use 2th or higher level slot for +3d8 damage. When the paladin class gains a spell level (up to 4th level spells), you gain the ability to use that spell level in smites for extra effect.

So, a single class paladin has no change. Multi-class paladins, however, will not be smiting as powerfully as they used to, thought probably they will have more smite usages from more spell slots.

So, are these changes ones you find good, bad or ugly? Why?

Thanks, Z.

So, your idea is to give the Champion access to Expertise on 1-2 skills, like a Rogue.. instead of the more thematic physical stat-only version of Jack Of All Trades it is.

And the Paladin thing.. How exactly is that any different from how Divine Smite works now?

[Jerrykhor]

I dont like the idea of giving Expertise to Champions, its not thematic. I'd give them something to help their Saves, and something to help their damage.

You might want to re-consider your wording for your revised Divine Smite. I too cannot understand the changes you made. You need to use the proper game terms.

[ProsecutorGodot]

For Remarkable Athlete, I can't comment on the balance with much certainty as I have yet to play a fighter myself, I will say that the version you suggested appeals less to me. The downside that I've observed most people citing for it is that it benefits checks that you would already have proficiency in (fighters don't really have a lot of uses for their skill proficiencies other than Athletics and Acrobatics) but it also does have a slight benefit of also giving them a bonus to initiative.

It looks boring, steals from the classes who are recognized as the skill users (Bard and Rogue) and is less thematic overall. I don't like it.

For the Diving Smite change, it definitely works to incentivize Paladins to not multiclass into Sorcerer but even though Sorcadin are considered "overwhelmingly strong" I don't see them as that much of an issue.

Not a terrible change, it does what you want without hurting the base class. I personally just think it's unnecessary.


I dont like the idea of giving Expertise to Champions, its not thematic. I'd give them something to help their Saves, and something to help their damage.

You might want to re-consider your wording for your revised Divine Smite. I too cannot understand the changes you made. You need to use the proper game terms.
It just ties the level of spell slot you can expend to smite with to your Paladin spell slot progression rather than your characters spell slot progression. It would prohibit a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 10 character from using any slot higher than 1st level for smiting since as a Paladin they would only have 1st level slots. It's functionally identical for a single class Paladin, it's just a direct nerf to multiclassing as a Paladin.

[Zobo]

Looking at the replies in general, I think the relevant question here is what a champion is?

I don't think it's limited to a physical paragon.


So, your idea is to give the Champion access to Expertise on 1-2 skills, like a Rogue.. instead of the more thematic physical stat-only version of Jack Of All Trades it is.

And the Paladin thing.. How exactly is that any different from how Divine Smite works now?

1 expertise only, and later than a rogue. And I disagree on the theme of champion, I think.

The paladin thing: Multiclass paladin nerf. Get 2 levels of paladin only? Well, you may be level 18 sorcerer, but you can only get +2d8 divine smites off. Luckily you'll probably be able to convert higher level spell slots into first level slots so you'll be smiting seven days to sunday without needing rest breaks.



I dont like the idea of giving Expertise to Champions, its not thematic. I'd give them something to help their Saves, and something to help their damage.

You might want to re-consider your wording for your revised Divine Smite. I too cannot understand the changes you made. You need to use the proper game terms.

Well, The idea I had was to NOT make champion better in a fight, but to give it a chance to be a something outside of it. To be a champion in a fight and versatile outside of it. The fighter subtype for people who want to do stuff outside combat.

I will edit the first post to clarify the smite thing further. Thanks for letting me know it's unclear.

[Zobo]

For Remarkable Athlete, I can't comment on the balance with much certainty as I have yet to play a fighter myself, I will say that the version you suggested appeals less to me. The downside that I've observed most people citing for it is that it benefits checks that you would already have proficiency in (fighters don't really have a lot of uses for their skill proficiencies other than Athletics and Acrobatics) but it also does have a slight benefit of also giving them a bonus to initiative.

It looks boring, steals from the classes who are recognized as the skill users (Bard and Rogue) and is less thematic overall. I don't like it.


The first chapter is abit opaque to me. Do you meant to say other people find the remarkable athlete to NOT benefit what you already have a proficiency in, so in fact you are not remarkable at all? Now, being able to do athletics with expertise, that would be remarkable indeed.

Being able to contribute outside of combat is boring? I don't get it.

Does Divine soul sorcerer steal from clerics? They are a subclass that gets cleric spell list but not other cleric stuff?

I don't agree that giving an ability (expertise) to another class that's not generally considered op and is generally considered to be boring outside combat some shine can be classified as stealing. You obviously disagree.

Also, Stealing from bards sounds good.



For the Diving Smite change, it definitely works to incentivize Paladins to not multiclass into Sorcerer but even though Sorcadin are considered "overwhelmingly strong" I don't see them as that much of an issue.

Not a terrible change, it does what you want without hurting the base class. I personally just think it's unnecessary.

It just ties the level of spell slot you can expend to smite with to your Paladin spell slot progression rather than your characters spell slot progression. It would prohibit a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 10 character from using any slot higher than 1st level for smiting since as a Paladin they would only have 1st level slots. It's functionally identical for a single class Paladin, it's just a direct nerf to multiclassing as a Paladin.

Yes, you seem to have gotten the idea for this proposal perfectly.

If you see no need, don't change. I and some others might see a problem,
and this change is thematic, clear and it works.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Looking at the replies in general, I think the relevant question here is what a champion is?

I don't think it's limited to a physical paragon.

The description of the Champion in the PHB says:

The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows.

Physical fitness and peak physical performance is the flavor of the class. Remarkable Athlete may be mechanically limited but it pays out in spades as a very flavorful ability. Being a Champion is literally about being a physical paragon and every ability the subclass grants is meant to further that theme.


Being able to contribute outside of combat is boring? I don't get it.

I didn't say that being able to contribute out of combat is boring, I said that giving Champion Fighter's expertise is boring. It's an uninspired bandaid fix to a non-issue ribbon ability. Instead of improving Remarkable Athlete to accentuate it's features in a way that is unique to the theme of this subclass you gave it a core class feature from the skill based classes and called it fixed.

That is boring.


Does Divine soul sorcerer steal from clerics? They are a subclass that gets cleric spell list but not other cleric stuff?

They do borrow from clerics, and that's the entire idea behind the subclass, to make a Cleric like Sorcerer. Champion isn't trying to be a skill monkey so it really shouldn't get a general expertise skill.

[Jerrykhor]

Well, The idea I had was to NOT make champion better in a fight, but to give it a chance to be a something outside of it. To be a champion in a fight and versatile outside of it. The fighter subtype for people who want to do stuff outside combat.

Why would you not want to make them better at fighting? Unless you are unaware, Champions is one of the poorer subclasses in terms of DPR.

[Dork_Forge]

The multiclass nerf is kind of unnecessary, multiclassing is optional anyway and a tying the slots to Paladin level imo would maybe push it to Paladin 8 Sorc 12, hitting all the big Paladin features and ASIs whilst still giving the character plenty of Smites.

In regards to the Champion thing... it doesn't really make sense. If you want to homebrew alter a class/subclass you need to consider what that class is and the Champion IS a physical paragon. If I were to add anything to the champion then maybe allow them to add a d4 to a save a number of times per long rest equal to Con mod. It more fits the physical paragon theme of just toughing things out rather than just tacking on an unrelated ability.

[bid]

How about Champion is the Fighter's skill monkey path? It wouldn't make it more powerful in the battlefield, and would make it the one to pick for some types of players.
First, the 6th level remarkable athlete is a goner. Replace it with Skill Expertise, just like the rogue. Also, whenever you gain any champion power you also receive one free proficiency in a skill, language or tool usage.
Champion 7 (not 6) is weak enough that you don't need to remove remarkable athlete. A good DPR fix is to add another use of action surge, which opens up more derring-doo.

Adding a single expertise also works, although champion is seen as a dabbler in all rather than expert in one.

[Zobo]

If champion was meant to be the physical paragon, it fails miserably.

If you really meant it to be that, you could do it better with my changes, using your skills for physical skills (so instead of half proficiency you'd get full and you would get the expertise on top.)

The PHB physical paragon is clearly Barbarian, as their unarmored ac and level 20 stat boosts actually make it one. How about we forget the physical paragon description from champion, and go with PHB sub-classes being about magic, battlefield control or skills - thus all the sub-classes would have an area where they excel.

Yes, champion is not the highest DPR fighter class. Fine! It is simple, and thus might attract a new player, or someone for whom the non-combat aspects of role-playing hold more attraction. Let them have more options there. It is not all about DPR, anyway.

What if you could also get an option to build the champion to be a socially adept fighter? In history many leaders were fighters, or the closest to it reality had to offer.

And to those who think fighter shouldn't tread on the niche of skill-monkey the rogues have, I do reply with one word: bards. If you can get expertise on a full caster, I really fail to see any reason your argument has merit. 5E doesn't do niche protection.

Z.

p.s. oh, and it was indeed level 7. My mistake.
p.p.s. Yes, paladin 9 (for third level spells) sorcerer 11 would indeed be a healthy multi-class. Exactly what the rules change was looking for

[ProsecutorGodot]

If champion was meant to be the physical paragon, it fails miserably.
Nobody has ever said that the Champion is the best possible subclass but it doesn't fail to reach the goal it sets out to. They are the best athlete that a fighter can be. None of the other published fighter subclasses* give you anything that makes you physically dominant over the others, Champion does.
*Interesting point, one of the reasons that the Brute UA was poorly received was that on top of being a ridiculous damage dealer, it stole the identity of the Champion and people didn't like that.


If you really meant it to be that, you could do it better with my changes, using your skills for physical skills (so instead of half proficiency you'd get full and you would get the expertise on top.)
Technically true but your change is bland and leaves open the option that the fighter could instead take expertise in non physical skills, taking away from the subclasses identity. In fact, one of the strengths of Remarkable Athlete is that you could choose not to take proficiency in Athletics, choosing another skill instead, and still maintain a good bonus to Athletics.

In effect, it already has utility in allowing a Champion to focus on other skills while maintaining their theme as a paragon of strength.


The PHB physical paragon is clearly Barbarian, as their unarmored ac and level 20 stat boosts actually make it one. How about we forget the physical paragon description from champion, and go with PHB sub-classes being about magic, battlefield control or skills - thus all the sub-classes would have an area where they excel.
There's no limitation saying that there cannot be multiple classes dedicated to physical skills. That's why there are several martial classes as opposed to just Fighter, Nature Fighter and Sneaky Fighter.


Yes, champion is not the highest DPR fighter class. Fine! It is simple, and thus might attract a new player, or someone for whom the non-combat aspects of role-playing hold more attraction. Let them have more options there. It is not all about DPR, anyway.
The limitation of options on champion is exactly what makes them a fantastic starter class. With so little to memorize of manage a fighter can easily contribute fully in combat and not be bogged down by bookkeeping and resource management. Less attention to the mechanical aspects of a class allows them to contribute more to every aspect of the game, including non combative parts.


What if you could also get an option to build the champion to be a socially adept fighter? In history many leaders were fighters, or the closest to it reality had to offer.
With all the extra ASI that Fighter receive as well as the plethora of background options, there is no limitation on making a Champion Fighter who is a skill historian or social butterfly. You already can accomplish this goal without making unnecessary changes.


And to those who think fighter shouldn't tread on the niche of skill-monkey the rogues have, I do reply with one word: bards. If you can get expertise on a full caster, I really fail to see any reason your argument has merit. 5E doesn't do niche protection.
Bards were skill monkeys since 2nd edition, it's one of the defining aspects of the class since its inception even in first edition that they're able to borrow aspects from many classes (on account of their rather arduous classing requirements back in ye olde times)

Fighters have never been known for their versatile skill options so it makes a lot more sense for them to have a focused form of skill expertise which Remarkable Athlete, despite its flaws, accomplishes well.

[MoiMagnus]

Champion change:

Expertise does not feel right. I would rather give them a reroll per short rest on any For/Con/Dex skill test (and if that's too strong, I would make it consume the action surge or the second wind).

Paladin change:

Changes that are complex with few consequences are usually bad. This one in particular doesn't have that much consequences, and exists just for forcing Sorcadin to take more Paladin levels. If you're goal is to prevent one particular player from abusing the game, talking with him is better than coming with a nerf targeted at him. But if he is fine with the nerf, that's not a bad change per itself.
I personally expect my players to take at least 30% of their level in any class they want to multiclass to (though I would probably make exceptions if asked), which already prevent the split 2-10.

[Zobo]

Note: I swapped quoted paragraph order to make a point.



Technically true but your change is bland and leaves open the option that the fighter could instead take expertise in non physical skills, taking away from the subclasses identity. In fact, one of the strengths of Remarkable Athlete is that you could choose not to take proficiency in Athletics, choosing another skill instead, and still maintain a good bonus to Athletics.

The limitation of options on champion is exactly what makes them a fantastic starter class. With so little to memorize of manage a fighter can easily contribute fully in combat and not be bogged down by bookkeeping and resource management. Less attention to the mechanical aspects of a class allows them to contribute more to every aspect of the game, including non combative parts.



So, you accuse my simple changes in a recognized starter class as categorize them as bland? I give out about one feat point worth of skills over 14 levels. It is not too much, I think. The expertise, well, rather bland, yes.
Still, blandness certainly fits a theme of the class. I didn't seek to make the changes difficult, and thus very much beginner friendly. But in a way that might make even experienced players with a vision choose it.



There's no limitation saying that there cannot be multiple classes dedicated to physical skills. That's why there are several martial classes as opposed to just Fighter, Nature Fighter and Sneaky Fighter.

Fighters have never been known for their versatile skill options so it makes a lot more sense for them to have a focused form of skill expertise which Remarkable Athlete, despite its flaws, accomplishes well.


So, no rule about other classes taking on roles of fighters, but apparently a rule against fighters with many skills. Gotcha.

Seriously, the lack of skill-monkey fighter is an oversight. I proposed to correct that, but it's not done...



With all the extra ASI that Fighter receive as well as the plethora of background options, there is no limitation on making a Champion Fighter who is a skill historian or social butterfly. You already can accomplish this goal without making unnecessary changes.


This is like the argument about bad rules in older games, when people said
a good gm could fix it, so it's not a problem. I disagree. Using a feat for
gaining skills means you will fall even further down on combat power.
Not acceptable, good sir.



Bards were skill monkeys since 2nd edition, it's one of the defining aspects of the class since its inception even in first edition that they're able to borrow aspects from many classes (on account of their rather arduous classing requirements back in ye olde times)


Bards were over-complicated in earlier editions? Fixed.
Clerics could not use edged weapons even if worshipping war gods? Fixed.
Thieves were unable to do much anything in combat? Fixed.
Clerics were better fighters than martial classes because buffs? Fixed.
High level casters made any non-caster useless in high levels? Fixed.
Mages just couldn't use armor? Fixed.
Fighters don't have a class that gives skills? No, no, things were historically
done this way so don't you go changing it.

[JNAProductions]

The Champion modification seems reasonable. The point of Champion is simplicity-but that doesn't add much complications outside of leveling up unless the player decides to try to use their big numbers, which is a good thing.

Paladin change seems unneeded. Sorcadins and whatnot do have crazy-strong novas... But then they're out of gas for the rest of the day. Just don't allow for 15-minute workdays, usually, and the problem shouldn't be there.

[Zobo]

Champion change:

Expertise does not feel right. I would rather give them a reroll per short rest on any For/Con/Dex skill test (and if that's too strong, I would make it consume the action surge or the second wind).

The re-roll thing - though I would just say in a skill you are proficient in, as
making a social or wilderness or academic fighter is what I try to do - sounds
like a somewhat reasonable replacement expertise. Maybe even a tag stronger.



Paladin change:

Changes that are complex with few consequences are usually bad. This one in particular doesn't have that much consequences, and exists just for forcing Sorcadin to take more Paladin levels. If you're goal is to prevent one particular player from abusing the game, talking with him is better than coming with a nerf targeted at him. But if he is fine with the nerf, that's not a bad change per itself.
I personally expect my players to take at least 30% of their level in any class they want to multiclass to (though I would probably make exceptions if asked), which already prevent the split 2-10.


Consequence: you have to choose between better smites (more paladin) or more smites (other full caster).
Choice with benefits and hindrances either way is I think better than one where going MC with full caster gives you the same power in smites but just way more of them. Just the advantage, no trade-off.

The rule is simple in it's basic form: gain better smites when you gain spell levels in paladin class. It's just hard to write out clearly and succintly in game terms.

I have no player problems. I think the last time I had player problems was in the mid nineties, so last millenium.

------
Oh, about your 30%:

If you have several classes, you cannot take a level in a class where you have another class with one third or less levels.
Example: a level 5 fighter takes a level of rogue.
Next level, 5 fighter levels is more than three times your 1 rogue level) so you can't take fighter.
Next, 5 fighter is more than three times 2, you can take fighter. Let's say you do.
Next, 6 fighter levels equals 2 rogue level times by three, so fighter is blocked again.

What this rule means is two classes will end up 15/5, three classes
12/4/4 if you favor one or 9/8/3 if you favor two.

15th level full caster gets 8th level spells.

I have never utilized this in a game, but mathematically it works out nicely.

You still can make 1 level dips. Just go 19 levels in your original class, then take one level in another. :smallsmile:

[ProsecutorGodot]

Fighters don't have a class that gives skills? No, no, things were historically done this way so don't you go changing it.
Note that I've never said that fighters shouldn't have skill proficiency options period, just that versatility in skill choices is not a staple of the class. I've also been clear that Champion is not designed to be the skill based Fighter class. That distinction falls to Purple Dragon Knight and Samurai being socially oriented fighter subclasses.

Both gain additional skill proficiencies, their level 7 ribbon ability is also instead focused on social skills and they gain additional bonuses to persuasion (Expertise for PDK and +Wis Mod for Samurai).

Fighter's gain THE MOST ASI out of every class in the game. Even if you spend a majority of your ASI on increasing your attack stat and gaining additional combat feats, you will get to a point (probably around level 12) where you're either increasing a secondary ability score or looking into utility feats like Prodigy. There are many opportunities for a fighter to gain out of combat skills without sacrificing any of their fighting abilities, to imply that a subclass needs to be given the expertise feature to contribute just makes me believe you're being lazy with the subclass.


The re-roll thing - though I would just say in a skill you are proficient in, as
making a social or wilderness or academic fighter is what I try to do - sounds
like a somewhat reasonable replacement expertise. Maybe even a tag stronger

Then make a Samurai. At 3rd level you get persuasion proficiency, at 7th level you get to add your Wisdom Modifier to Persuasion checks. Take the archaeologist background. Now you've got a viable party face who is an intelligent historian who does his own delves into lost tombs. You don't need expertise to be an academic fighter.

Dex/Str Primary stat, Con secondary and Wisdom tertiary. Perfectly viable character who can excel in all pillars of the game.

[Zobo]

The Champion modification seems reasonable. The point of Champion is simplicity-but that doesn't add much complications outside of leveling up unless the player decides to try to use their big numbers, which is a good thing.

Paladin change seems unneeded. Sorcadins and whatnot do have crazy-strong novas... But then they're out of gas for the rest of the day. Just don't allow for 15-minute workdays, usually, and the problem shouldn't be there.

A skill every few levels is not a big complication. They gain them along with hopefully better understanding of rules.

As to sorcadin:

Yes, well, fixing the effects of bad rules is in my opinion not as good as fixing the bad rules themselves. With the paladin change you will have to balance between more smites and better smites.

I think the main problem is the class front-loading we see. It makes most non-casters stronger in the short run rather than broader in options. In a general sense multi-class should give you more options, not more power.

Yes, longer game days (or even the occasional no long rest tonight) is one way of curtailing sorcadin power. As is sometimes throwing in radiant resistant/immune monsters, Hordes with very few hp so smites are wasted, fights in areas where using smite would attract attention of a very powerful demon and the players know it... I have ways to keep the sorcadin in control, do not doubt.

[Wildarm]

How about Champion is the Fighter's skill monkey path? It wouldn't make it more powerful in the battlefield, and would make it the one to pick for some types of players.
First, the 6th level remarkable athlete is a goner. Replace it with Skill Expertise, just like the rogue. Also, whenever you gain any champion power you also receive one free proficiency in a skill, language or tool usage.

Paladin: Change the smite power.


For the Champion, expertise would not be where I'd go with it. Instead, I'd leave the physical jack of all trades ability as is and add in reliable talent for any Fighter Skill you are proficient in. This makes you the most consistent fighter out there without stepping on the Rogue's toes(Expertise and Reliable talent in all proficient skills) or the Barbarian(Advantage on Athletics Checks when raging).

For the Paladin, if you want to tone down the Sorladin, you can definitely do that but you just push the problem further up the level chain. Makes Paladin 6/Sorc14 more appealing and that is still super strong. Better and simpler fix, if you're trying to keep Nova capabilities in check, just have divine smite limited to 1/Round.