Paladin code ( 3.5 ): association with Evil characters.

[Conradine]

A Paladin cannot associate with any character who persistently commits acts which would cause the Paladin him/herself to Fall.

So, simple question: can a Paladin associate with an evil character who is careful to never do any evil action while he's working with the Paladin?

( that would be possibile if the Evil character is a rational one, who committed opportuinistic crimes rather than a For The Evulz berserker like Belkar )

[Kaleph]

A Paladin cannot associate with any character who persistently commits acts which would cause the Paladin him/herself to Fall.

So, simple question: can a Paladin associate with an evil character who is careful to never do any evil action while he's working with the Paladin?

( that would be possibile if the Evil character is a rational one, who committed opportuinistic crimes rather than a For The Evulz berserker like Belkar )

Actually the wording is: "a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters".

So, first it's not a must, a requirement or (explicitly) a part of a paladin's code of conduct. It's more a given when it comes to paladin's RP.
On the other hand, the sentence refers to an ally just being evil, not committing evil acts.

A generic paladin should consequently refuse to associate with an NPC, for example, as soon as he uses detect evil and finds out his companion's alignment. At the same time, if he doesn't refuse, the PHB rules don't say explicitly that he becomes a fallen paladin - this would be a DM's call, and there could be limited cases where it would be without consequences (redemption, order of a superior, or simply the NPC is vital for a quest and the paladin receives the task to surveil him and make sure he sticks to the mission and doesn't derail doing random evil stuff in the meantime).

[Buufreak]

That's the thing, though. If the person is in a constant state of "pretend to be good around the paladin," how would the paladin be considered "knowingly associating with evil?" For as far as the paladin can tell, barring magical means, the person isn't evil.

[Kaleph]

That's the thing, though. If the person is in a constant state of "pretend to be good around the paladin," how would the paladin be considered "knowingly associating with evil?" For as far as the paladin can tell, barring magical means, the person isn't evil.

The problem is detect evil SLA at will at level 1.

[Conradine]

Not every Evil character is a murderous monster.

A tax collector who emblezzed money and exploited the poor to build his wealth five years ago, then left and settled in another town as a peaceful merchant is still Evil.
A soldier who looted and pillaged mercilessly during a war, out of greed rather than ferocity, then became a city officer - his bloody days left behind and known only to him.
The aristocrat who paid some thugs to kill silently and with discretion his romantic rival, then led a fairly normal life.

Not murderous, not rabid, he could even be shallowly kind, but he did Evil for his own gain and never repented.

[AnimeTheCat]

I think people conflate the code of ethics and associates. Those are two different passages. Here's the first:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
and here's the second:

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
The ex-paladins section has this to say:

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).
Simply adventuring with an evil character does not satisfy any of the reasons a paladin would lose their powers. The individual playing the paladin can refuse the help, aid, and assistance all day long, but unless the evil character actively breaks the law or commits an evil act in the presence of the paladin, it would likely be unlawful to simply strike him down in the streets and would be evil and unlawful to kill him in his sleep. The paladin would be honor bound and code of ethics bound to simply walk away or simply deny and aid and wait for their chance to deal swift and fair (the the crime) justice.

[hamishspence]

In Dragon Magazine's guidelines for the paladin, late in 3.5, it suggests that a paladin may associate on a very limited basis with Evil characters - solely with the intent of redeeming them.

Defenders of the Faith (3.0) also suggested that paladins must weigh the possibilities - the chance of redeeming an evildoer vs the chance of becoming personally corrupted.

[Conradine]

In Dragon Magazine's guidelines for the paladin, late in 3.5, it suggests that a paladin may associate on a very limited basis with Evil characters - solely with the intent of redeeming them.

What Issues?

[hamishspence]

Issue 358 (August 2007) - page 93.

[Buufreak]

The problem is detect evil SLA at will at level 1.

Right. And have you read detect evil? You either are a divine caster, of a decent level, or you dont have an aura. A lvl1 play in party with a lvl1 evil rogue will be none the wider until he is proven otherwise by, more likely than not, mundane means.

[Deadline]

Right. And have you read detect evil? You either are a divine caster, of a decent level, or you dont have an aura. A lvl1 play in party with a lvl1 evil rogue will be none the wider until he is proven otherwise by, more likely than not, mundane means.

Detect Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm)

Evil creatures show up on Detect Magic. Clerics just radiate a stronger aura (edit - stronger from level 2+. At level 1 they radiate the same as a 1 HD evil creature).

[Buufreak]

Why am I remembering it differently? Oh well, cant win em all. Just another tally in the "why paladins suck" column.

[RedMage125]

Why am I remembering it differently? Oh well, cant win em all. Just another tally in the "why paladins suck" column.

It may have been a house rule that a DM who ran for you played with. I run pretty close to RAW when I run games, and even I think the idea of having non-cleric, non-supernatural entities having zero alignment aura of any kind is a good idea for a house rule.

A 10-HD Evil Fighter, for example, still only has a Faint Evil Aura.

Also note that "Undead" have their own line in Detect Evil, which means that it doesn't matter what the undead creature's alignment is. A Vampire who has managed to feed only from willingly donated blood and is maintaining his previous Chaotic Good alignment will still register on a Detect Evil spell. As will the oft-vaunted Succubus Paladin. As an outside with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes and Paladin, she actually radiates all 4 alignments (and suffers from all 4 alignment-affecting spells like Holy Smite, Unholy Blight, Chaos Hammer, etc).

Even more amusing is that the line for Clerics, it is the deity's alignment that causes the aura. A level 10 LE cleric of Wee Jas (LN deity) only has a Faint Evil aura (as a humanoid), but a Powerful Lawful one. Likewise a level 10 LN Cleric of Hextor (LE deity) has a powerful Evil aura.

I mention those last bits because even going by RAW, Detect Evil isn't even always a perfect way to determine alignment.

[AnimeTheCat]

Seriously folks... read the class info. Simply adventuring with an evil character does not constitute the paladin falling from grace. The paladin either needs to willingly commit an evil act or needs to breech the code of ethics. The code of ethics paragraph does not discuss, or even refer to, associating with an evil character. That's an entirely separate paragraph with a different heading titled "associates". Further, just because the player is in the group doesnt mean the player has to accept the other character. Hell, the paladin or the evil character could be a tag along pursuing their own interests. This isnt really that difficult and people are making mountains out of molehills.

[RNightstalker]

A Paladin cannot associate with any character who persistently commits acts which would cause the Paladin him/herself to Fall.

So, simple question: can a Paladin associate with an evil character who is careful to never do any evil action while he's working with the Paladin?

( that would be possibile if the Evil character is a rational one, who committed opportuinistic crimes rather than a For The Evulz berserker like Belkar )

Simple answer to simple question: no.

Where can things go screwy?: define "associate".

[Conradine]

In my opinion there are two great categories of evil:

capital letter Evil
and
lower case evil

Capital letter Evil are those characters who must do evil things, like Blackguards, fiend worshippers and most evil clerics ( with mabye a small exception for evil clerics of neutral deities ). Sure, they may be redeemed one day, but untill that day it's virtually certain they'll keep doing Evil actions. It's the side they have chosen, it's what they are.


Lower case evil are those characters who did evil things for profit or convenience and never repented, but are in no way coerced to do these things again. Amoral mercenaries, common thugs, profiteer, greedy landlords, loan sharks and the like could be examples of lower case evil.


In may opinion a Paladin could cooperate with lower case evil characters if they refrain from evil actions but can in no way cooperate with Capital letter Evil characters.

[Seto]

Why am I remembering it differently? Oh well, cant win em all. Just another tally in the "why paladins suck" column.

You might be remembering the Pathfinder version, which works like you described (an aligned creature starts having a faint aura from 5HD)

[Âmesang]

I mean there's always, "the enemy of my enemy is my… tolerated acquaintance."

[Astralia123]

In Dragon Magazine's guidelines for the paladin, late in 3.5, it suggests that a paladin may associate on a very limited basis with Evil characters - solely with the intent of redeeming them.

Defenders of the Faith (3.0) also suggested that paladins must weigh the possibilities - the chance of redeeming an evildoer vs the chance of becoming personally corrupted.

Though I don't think BoED give a smart argument on most of the moral issues, it actually stated "Such a situation (a good party has to ally a group of drow to overthrow the ruling house) is dangerous both physically and morally, but cooperating with evil creatures is not necessarily evil in itself." This is not specific to paladins, but in such circumstances of dire needs, I don't think a paladin will be forced to strictly refuse any help or chances of allies only to stick to his code.

[illyahr]

I prefer to make a few adjustments to the Paladin's Code that makes it less stick-up-the-butt.

1 Change "doesn't associate with evil" to "doesn't associate with the wicked." This allows the Paladin to work with evil characters so long as they aren't going out of their way to harm others. Basically, they can work with characters as long as they aren't murderhobos.

2. Change "willingly commits and evil act" to "knowingly and willingly." This way a Paladin doesn't lose class features if he is tricked into committing an evil act without realizing the consequences. This is a buffer to prevent other players from trying to screw the Paladin.