theory-crafting a worse blade ward and worse true strike

[NaughtyTiger]

What if, blade ward and true strike were made 1 step worse.
Non-concentration, but it takes 1 round to cast.
The duration is still 1 round (lasts till the end of your next turn)

For example
your initiative is 7.
Round 1 (init 7): you use your action to start casting Worse Blade Ward (WBW). you are unprotected
Round 2 (init 7): [you are unprotected.] you finish casting WBW (WBW). you are protected by WBW until the end of your turn Round 3. you use your action to start casting WTS. you are still protected by WBW.
Round 3 (init 7): you are still protected by WBW. you finish casting WTS. you are still protected by WBW until the end of your turn, and you have advantage a an attack next round.


Obviously, this is not about blade ward or true strike. it is about being able to complete a 1-round task in 1-round. or a 1-hour task in 1-hour.

EDIT added, [you are unprotected] at the start of round 2 to clarify that WBW is not in effect.

[JackPhoenix]

"1 round" casting time is not a thing, because "1 round" is not a type of action you can take.

[Segev]

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this thought exercise. Can you explain why we're even thinking about this "what if?"

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this thought exercise. Can you explain why we're even thinking about this "what if?"

They're trying to illustrate why Planar Binding is not impossible to use effectively.

[Segev]

It looks like he's declaring it to have a 2-round duration rather than a 1-round duration as part of being "worse?" Or as part of having a full round casting time?

[NaughtyTiger]

"1 round" casting time is not a thing, because "1 round" is not a type of action you can take.

"1 hour" casting time is not a thing, because "1 hour" is not a type of action you can take.
"1 action" casting time is not a thing, because "1 action" is not a type of action you can take.

I do not understand your concern.


It looks like he's declaring it to have a 2-round duration rather than a 1-round duration as part of being "worse?" Or as part of having a full round casting time?

WBW is NOT in effect while you are casting it. (note the phrase: you are unprotected at the end of round 1)
WBW is in effect from [after you cast it in round 2] until [the end of turn in round 3]. this is both stated in the original spell AND in my text.

[JackPhoenix]

"1 hour" casting time is not a thing, because "1 hour" is not a type of action you can take?

1 hour is 600 rounds per the rules. If you cast a spell with casting time longer than one action or reaction, you must use your action to keep casting the spell on each turn. To cast a spell with 1-hour long casting time, you must spend 600 turns casting the same spell.

Assuming "1 round" casting time is longer than one action or reaction, you (per the same rules) cast the spell by spending 1 action. At which point, declaring the casting time is something else than 1 action is redundant (well, not really, it'll break your concentration on any other spell too, but True Strike would do that anyway). What you apparently want is the spell to have *2 rounds* casting time, and the example wouldn't work the way you've described it either way. It would be either


your initiative is 7.
Round 1 (init 7): You use your action to cast Worse Blade Ward (WBW). The spell is cast and you're protected until the end of your next turn.
Round 2 (init 7): You are protected by WBW until the end of your turn. You use your action to cast WTS. WBW ends at the end of your turn.
Round 3 (init 7): You are unprotected. You have advantage on the first attack against the target of WTS this turn, assuming your concentration wasn't broken since you've cast it
if the casting time is 1 round, or


your initiative is 7.
Round 1 (init 7): You use your action to start casting Worse Blade Ward (WBW). You are unprotected
Round 2 (init 7): You are unprotected until you finish casting WBW with your action. You've already used your action to finish casting WBW, so you can't use it to cast WTS. You're protected by WBW until the end of your turn on round 3.
Round 3 (init 7): You're protected by WBW until the end of your turn. You use your action to start casting WTS. WBW ends at the end of your turn.
Round 4 (init 7): You are unprotected. You use your action to finish casting WTS, assuming you still have valid target.
Round 5 (init 7): You are unprotected. You have advantage on the first attack against the target of WTS this turn, assuming your concentration wasn't broken since you've cast it.
if the casting time is 2 rounds

Of course, you may also create completely new rules for what "1 round casting time" means to make an exception to existing rules, but that's beyond the scope of your original post.

[JackPhoenix]

Ah ha! and this (the bolded) is the interpretation where we disagree.

You say it takes 2 actions to cast a 1-round spell or 12 seconds to cast a 6 second spell.
You say it takes 601 actions to cast a 1-hour spell or 3606 seconds to cast a 1-hour spell.
You do not count the action that starts casting the spell as contributing to the casting time.

Whereas, if I am spending my entire action and turn concentrating and casting a spell, then I will count that action and turn as contributing to the casting time.

No, I never said anything like that. Read the whole thing again. I said


Assuming "1 round" casting time is longer than one action or reaction, you (per the same rules) cast the spell by spending 1 action. At which point, declaring the casting time is something else than 1 action is redundant (well, not really, it'll break your concentration on any other spell too, but True Strike would do that anyway).

The bolded statement is from the example that clearly says it applies if the casting time is 2 rounds

[NaughtyTiger]

No, I never saiy anything like that. Read the whole thing again. I said



The bolded statement is from the example that clearly says it applies if the casting time is 2 rounds

yeah. i just reread that and deleted my post. let me repost.

[MaxWilson]

The controversy here is over duration, not casting time. Does a spell that lasts "one round" like Blade Ward let you take another action before it ends? (Explicitly yes.) Does a spell like Haste or Vampiric Touch that lasts one minute let you take ten actions before it ends? (It doesn't explicitly say, but yes is a reasonable answer.)

Does a spell like Conjure Elemental that lasts for one hour let you take six hundred actions before it ends, so that someone has time to cast Planar Binding? A reasonable answer is "Yes." It's hard to see "No" as a reasonable answer here. If you want the answer to be "that doesn't work" them make it clear by increasing the casting time of Planar Binding to sixty six minutes or something like that. Don't SURPRISE players by making spells that clearly are intended to work together inexplicably not work.

[NaughtyTiger]

Assuming "1 round" casting time is longer than one action or reaction, you (per the same rules) cast the spell by spending 1 action. At which point, declaring the casting time is something else than 1 action is redundant]

I disagree with your interpretation on this. Cuz you aren't spending a whole 6-second round casting this. You are only spending your turn. You don't need to concentrate. You don't need to worry about being hit/con-save at Round 1 init 4 or Round 2 init 14.


But all it does it move the casting faster by 1 round.



if the casting time is 1 round,

your initiative is 7.
Round 1 (init 7): You use your action to cast Worse Blade Ward (WBW). The spell is cast and you're protected until the end of your next turn.
Round 2 (init 7): You are protected by WBW until the end of your turn. You use your action to cast WTS. WBW ends at the end of your turn.
Round 3 (init 7): You are unprotected. You have advantage on the first attack against the target of WTS this turn, assuming your concentration wasn't broken since you've cast it

By the end of your turn in Round 2: You said that you finished casting Worse True Strike while still protected by Worse Blade Strike.
A 1-round casting can be completed before a 1-round duration expires, by a single caster.
As such, a 600 round casting can be completed before a 600-round duration expires, by a single caster.
And that is my point.



Don't SURPRISE players by making spells that clearly are intended to work together inexplicably not work.
But they can work together, so it isn't a surprise. Folks that say "no" interpret the RAW differently from those that say "yes", and that's okay. JackPhoenix and Chronos aren't wrong to say it doesn't work together, but I ain't wrong

[manyslayer]

Just make them Ritual only.

[JackPhoenix]

I disagree with your interpretation on this. Cuz you aren't spending a whole 6-second round casting this. You are only spending your turn. You don't need to concentrate.

It doesn't matter, you do need to. "When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so".


By the end of your turn in Round 2: You said that you finished casting Worse True Strike while still protected by Worse Blade Strike.
And that is my point.

Sure, because WBS specifically lasts "until the end of your next turn".


The controversy here is over duration, not casting time. Does a spell that lasts "one round" like Blade Ward let you take another action before it ends? (Explicitly yes.) Does a spell like Haste or Vampiric Touch that lasts one minute let you take ten actions before it ends? (It doesn't explicitly say, but yes is a reasonable answer.)

See the answer above. Another spell with duration of 1 round is Booming Blade, and that one ends at the START of your next turn, meaning you can't take another action before it ends (ignoring stuff like Haste, Action Surge or bonus actions you can take in the same turn you've cast it). Same with Shield.
Message is another example. It's even weirder, because it doesn't specify when it ends in relation to your turn.... the 1 round duration is there propably to allow the recipient to answer, though it's not actually needed, as you can talk outside your turn. Same with Sending.
Command lasts until the target's turn, which means its 1 round duration may end on the same round you've cast it, if the target has lower initiative.

[NaughtyTiger]

JackPhoenix,
I think your interpretation is that a 1-round casting would be done by the end of the round. (True or false?)
My interpretation is that a 1-round casting would be done by start of your next turn in the next round.

I think your interpretation is that a 1-round duration would be done by the end of the round. (True or false?)
My interpretation is that a 1-round duration would be done by start of your next turn in the next round.

[NaughtyTiger]

I disagree with your interpretation on this. Cuz you aren't spending a whole 6-second round casting this. You are only spending your turn. You don't need to concentrate. It doesn't matter, you do need to. "When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so".

I meant that your interpretation means you aren't spending a whole 6-seconds casting the spell. Your interpretation means you are only spending your turn. Your interpretation means You don't need to worry about being hit/con-save at Round 1 init 4 or Round 2 init 14.

[MaxWilson]

See the answer above. Another spell with duration of 1 round is Booming Blade, and that one ends at the START of your next turn, meaning you can't take another action before it ends (ignoring stuff like Haste, Action Surge or bonus actions you can take in the same turn you've cast it). Same with Shield.
Message is another example. It's even weirder, because it doesn't specify when it ends in relation to your turn.... the 1 round duration is there propably to allow the recipient to answer, though it's not actually needed, as you can talk outside your turn. Same with Sending.
Command lasts until the target's turn, which means its 1 round duration may end on the same round you've cast it, if the target has lower initiative.

And because there is precedent for both, either is a reasonable answer... For any given spell in isolation.

So why would a DM pick the surprising interpretation for Planar Binding that makes it just *barely* not work even though players and even the 5E designers want it to work? If you want it to not work, it's bad design to rely on a technicality which exists only in the DM's head. You'll just look like a jerk to your players when you tell them that their elemental always disappears *right* before they finish their hour-long Planar Binding spell, and if you try to justify it by having <DurationWar> right there at the table you'll just run everybody's night.

If you want it to not work, it is not reasonable to not change Planar Binding's casting time to make it obvious that it won't work. "In my game, Planar Binding takes sixty six minutes to cast."

Inventing a surprising technicality and then insisting on it in play is not good game design.

[JackPhoenix]

And because there is precedent for both, either is a reasonable answer... For any given spell in isolation.

So why would a DM pick the surprising interpretation for Planar Binding that makes it just *barely* not work even though players and even the 5E designers want it to work? If you want it to not work, it's bad design to rely on a technicality which exists only in the DM's head. If you want it to not work, it is not reasonable to not change Planar Binding's casting time to make it obvious that it won't work. If you want it to work, it's reasonable to leave them as is and just let them work as the authors intended.

The summoned creature will exist for 600 rounds.

First round of its existence will be when the caster finishes casting the summoning spell on his turn. Not one round later, when he starts casting Planar Binding on his turn. The creature may or not be able to take its turn that round, depending if its initiative is higher or lower than the caster's initiative.
1st round of PB's casting, when the caster spends his first action to start casting the spell on his turn would be the 2nd round of the creature's existence.
600th round of its existence will be when the caster is in the 599 round of 600-rounds-long casting of Planar Binding. Presumably, the creature will disappear at the end of that round instead of at its start, but that doesn't change things.
600th round of PB's casting, when the caster finish the spell on his turn, would be the 601st round of the summoned creature's existence.


Even if you stick to the narration rather than mechanics, 3600 seconds of the summoned creature's existence will run out before the 3600 seconds-long casting of PB that started ~6 seconds after the first duration started ticking pass.


Inventing a surprising technicality and then insisting on it in play is not good game design.

As I've noted in the other thread, on the forums, I generally argue for what the RAW says, even though I would often rule differently in actual game. This is one such case... it is pretty clear the intent is that the spells should work together, they just don't due to developer mistakes in RAW*. Fortunately, 5e is the "rulings, not rules" edition, so that's not a problem unless you either have a GM that's extremely strict with sticking to the RAW (he propably should play a different game), or arguing on forums.

*another such mistake allows the spells with "1 round duration" last for 2 rounds.

[NaughtyTiger]

The summoned creature will exist for 600 rounds.
[LIST]
First round of its existence will be when the caster finishes casting the summoning spell on his turn. Not one round later, when he starts casting Planar Binding on his turn.

This is where we disagree. I say the caster finishes casting just before his next turn.

you: start of your turn to the end of your turn = about 6 seconds
me: end of your turn to the start of your next turn = about 6 seconds
(do i have your position correct?)

[MaxWilson]

The summoned creature will exist for 600 rounds.

First round of its existence will be when the caster finishes casting the summoning spell on his turn. Not one round later, when he starts casting Planar Binding on his turn. The creature may or not be able to take its turn that round, depending if its initiative is higher or lower than the caster's initiative.
1st round of PB's casting, when the caster spends his first action to start casting the spell on his turn would be the 2nd round of the creature's existence.
600th round of its existence will be when the caster is in the 599 round of 600-rounds-long casting of Planar Binding. Presumably, the creature will disappear at the end of that round instead of at its start, but that doesn't change things.
600th round of PB's casting, when the caster finish the spell on his turn, would be the 601st round of the summoned creature's existence.


If I get to take 600 actions before creature vanishes, it's still only taking 600 actions itself. It gets an hour's worth of actions. It's not taking 601 actions and neither is the caster.


Even if you stick to the narration rather than mechanics, 3600 seconds of the summoned creature's existence will run out before the 3600 seconds-long casting of PB that started ~6 seconds after the first duration started ticking pass.

So you are going to start <DurationWar> with your players? Why would you do this? If you want it to work this way, why are you not increasing the casting time of Planar Binding to 66 minutes? In what way is it conducive to fun when their elementals always vanish "six seconds" before they finish casting Planar Binding?

Should have finished reading before responding. Okay, so you're not going to do this at the table. Good, neither would I. I don't think any good DM would.


As I've noted in the other thread, on the forums, I generally argue for what the RAW says, even though I would often rule differently in actual game. This is one such case... it is pretty clear the intent is that the spells should work together, they just don't due to developer mistakes in RAW*. Fortunately, 5e is the "rulings, not rules" edition, so that's not a problem unless you either have a GM that's extremely strict with sticking to the RAW (he propably should play a different game), or arguing on forums.

*another such mistake allows the spells with "1 round duration" last for 2 rounds.

You haven't made your case here, and Blade Ward demonstrates exactly why. The fact that it lasts until the end of your next turn does not give it a "2 round" duration.

But at least we apparently all agree that you can use Planar Binding at the table, even if we disagree about whether or not you can use it on an Internet forum.

[Chronos]

There's still the concentration issue, though. Now, Conjure Fey and Conjure Elemental have special rules that the creature doesn't disappear when concentration is broken, but instead become hostile, so you can still cast the binding (but you'd better hope that you had a circle cast, and you'd better hope you upcast it for longer duration or that last bit will get interesting). Is it a "gotcha" if you only cast Magic Circle at its default level and so you lose control of the creature? And Conjure Animals, Conjure Celestial, Conjure Minor Elementals, and Conjure Woodland Beings don't have any special rules for loss of concentration: Is it a "gotcha" if Planar Binding doesn't work with them?

[MaxWilson]

There's still the concentration issue, though. Now, Conjure Fey and Conjure Elemental have special rules that the creature doesn't disappear when concentration is broken, but instead become hostile, so you can still cast the binding (but you'd better hope that you had a circle cast, and you'd better hope you upcast it for longer duration or that last bit will get interesting). Is it a "gotcha" if you only cast Magic Circle at its default level and so you lose control of the creature? And Conjure Animals, Conjure Celestial, Conjure Minor Elementals, and Conjure Woodland Beings don't have any special rules for loss of concentration: Is it a "gotcha" if Planar Binding doesn't work with them?

Planar Binding has a 60' range. For most monsters, tanking a single round of attacks just equates to standing out of range, in a place where they can't run away in the opposite direction.

I think it's fine if spells that don't say the creature remains if you lose concentration, require a second spellcaster. That's not a gotcha.