True Polymorph, Shape Change, and Staff of the Magi

[Kenny Snoggins]

Quick rules question. Can my level 20 bard cast true polymorph into an ancient brass dragon, then at some future point shape change into a creature capable of attuning to my Staff of the Magi, and use the staff to dispel the enchantment on myself?

I play AL. I feel like it's not as tactically abusive as playing that you retain spell casting by shape changing into your regular form, since it would take at least a short rest to transform back into yourself, and you couldn't switch back to a dragon until you have a long rest. RAW wise I think this is legal.

[nickl_2000]

True Polymorph into an ancient dragon - Sure
Shapechange into something else - Sure Dragons can do this. You can even attune to a magical item as a dragon since the attunement in the DMG only says a creature can attune.
Attune to staff of the magi. Here is your problem, shapechange allows you to change into CR <= Dragon CR. You are getting the NPC stats block and NPCs don't have PC level and therefore don't have PC classes. Thus you can't attune to a staff of the magi. (this is wrong, see my post below in large letters)


Now, this is my interpretation of the situation, but I'm not an AL DM. Although wouldn't it be easier to just beat yourself up or drop out of the sky over and over again to force yourself out of true polymorph form?

[Kenny Snoggins]

So you would say that a CR 14 arch mage could not attune to a staff of the magi?

I dont know about suiciding yourself downTo 0 HP. Way easier but I have seen DMs play it that if you drop to 0 as a dragon, you go into death saves, not back to your PC.

[Hail Tempus]

So you would say that a CR 14 arch mage could not attune to a staff of the magi?

I dont know about suiciding yourself downTo 0 HP. Way easier but I have seen DMs play it that if you drop to 0 as a dragon, you go into death saves, not back to your PC. The limitations in the DMG on attunement apply only to players. An NPC can be attuned to whatever the DM wants them to attune to.

[nickl_2000]

So you would say that a CR 14 arch mage could not attune to a staff of the magi?

I dont know about suiciding yourself downTo 0 HP. Way easier but I have seen DMs play it that if you drop to 0 as a dragon, you go into death saves, not back to your PC.

No, I wouldn't because an Archmage is a spellcaster who happens to be able to cast wizard spells using intelligence. There is nothing in his stat block that says he has PC levels as a wizard. It may seem like a semantic argument, but you are talking about an AL table here.

As for the second part, maybe I misread it how it works. I will let others that knw more jump in.


Crud, I am completely and utterly wrong. I read the DMG more carefully now. "If the class is a spellcasting class, a monster qualifies if that monster has spell slots and uses that class's spell list." (pg 136 and 138). So, an archmage can, in fact, attune to a Staff of the Magi. So, dispel away!

[Keravath]

DMG p138
"A creature's attunement to an item ends if the creature no longer satisfies the prerequisites for attunement"

So could a bard true polymorph to a dragon? sure
Could that dragon shape change into a caster capable of attuning to a staff of the magi? Yes
Could the shape changed dragon then use the staff to dispel the true polymorph? Yes

After that, you are back to being a bard who can't be attuned to the staff so you lose the attunement if that was the objective of all the maneuvers.

Otherwise, I don't see any reason you couldn't do it ... I just don't see why you would.

Reading some more, it seems as if you are interested in this as being a way back to being a bard.

As long as you take the time to ..
- attune to the staff
- cast as many DC19 dispel magic as needed to finally dispel the true polymorph depending on how many charges are in the staff
.. then I would think it would work.

"I feel like it's not as tactically abusive as playing that you retain spell casting by shape changing into your regular form"

From reading the description of shape change in the MM .. I'm not sure that changing to a PC and retaining most of their abilities is possible."

"Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form."

Class features are listed as not being included when you shape change. However, spellcasting is explicitly listed under the class features for player character classes so I would think that RAW, a shape changed dragon isn't allowed to cast spells or use ANY of the PC character class abilities if they choose to shape change into a character class based creature. NPCs on the other hand don't have classes so they don't have the same constraint.


P.S. Perhaps the reason class features are excluded is to explicitly avoid the abuse of a PC who has true polymorphed into a dragon being able to shape change into any character class and then use that class abilities (which would really break things). On the other hand, it allows you to shape change to impersonate a PC but you don't get any of the class features.

[Kenny Snoggins]

I should clarify, my PC is lore Bard 17, Hexblade 3, which is how he is able to use the staff to begin with.

And I don't need to cast random archmage spells after the shape change, I just need to attune to the staff to dispel the polymorph.

Or just have another person in the party attune to the staff and cut out the middle step. The problem being that at very high levels tier 4 characters usually have all attunement slots filled.

[Keravath]

I should clarify, my PC is lore Bard 17, Hexblade 3, which is how he is able to use the staff to begin with.

Cool :) mine is a level 11 lore bard/2 hexblade at the moment who also has a staff of the magi and I really like the character :)

I've been looking at going 18/2 for the level 18 magical secrets though.

(However, I really do think it was a mistake for AL to put Legendary items on the tier 3 seasonal unlock list).

[Keravath]

And I don't need to cast random archmage spells after the shape change, I just need to attune to the staff to dispel the polymorph.


Just curious. How does attuning to the staff dispel the polymorph? I thought the attunement was needed to cast dispel magic from the staff on yourself since dispel magic isn't on the ArchMage NPC spell list.

[Dalebert]

You're aware that True Polymorph ends at the end of a session in AL games?

[Kenny Snoggins]

Just curious. How does attuning to the staff dispel the polymorph? I thought the attunement was needed to cast dispel magic from the staff on yourself since dispel magic isn't on the ArchMage NPC spell list.

It doesn't, you have to cast dispel magic from the staff.... but you can't cast from it if you aren't attuned to it of course.

And the No Dragons In Town rule is fine but sometimes the big combat encounter is before the big social encounter so I'd rather be a dragon then a bard in the same session.

[darknite]

What's been stated seems like it would work as long as we can agree that an Archmage == a wizard (which is capable of attuning to the Staff of the Magi). That said the Dragon could not be attuned and hence there would be an attunement period after the Change Shape to Archmage. Although that begs the question whether your PC remains attuned to items after poly'ing into a creature that could not be attuned in other cases. Yikes!

However, I usually go the route of True Poly'ing a Simulacrum as that allows me to play my PC and have a high CR buddy (who turns into ME if it runs out of HP) for the assist.

[ThePolarBear]

Could that dragon shape change into a caster capable of attuning to a staff of the magi? Yes

Nope. A dragon's Change Shape prevents the gaining of class features of the new form. Spellcasting (the special trait in the MM) is described to be a class feature (MM p10). A dragon changing shape to an archmage would end up as an archmage without Spellcasting, thus unable to attune to the Staff.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Why do you want to stop being an overpowered flying god of destruction again?

[Kenny Snoggins]

Why do you want to stop being an overpowered flying god of destruction again?

Great point (and username, 10/10) but roleplaying a giant angry reptile is less fun than RPing a persuasion mod OMG arch-bard. Turning into a dragon is more of a party trick than a lifestyle choice for my PC.

[Kenny Snoggins]

Cool :) mine is a level 11 lore bard/2 hexblade at the moment who also has a staff of the magi and I really like the character :)

I've been looking at going 18/2 for the level 18 magical secrets though.

(However, I really do think it was a mistake for AL to put Legendary items on the tier 3 seasonal unlock list).

Yeah you'll love the build. It's a social God that is very viable in combat and can also heal, and as you have probably seen, you use your action, bonus, reaction, mount action, and familiar action almost every turn. I love how many buttons you get to press with this build, it's very player interaction heavy although you have so many options it can be overwhelming.

Personally I have gauntlets of ogre strength, saddle of the cavalier, cloak of invisibility, +2 shield, +1 breastplate, and the staff of the magi. I took expertise in athletics and persuasion so I can diplomacy or grapple with a +17 (before cutting words) and power bomb idiots off my dashing spirit griffon from 120+ feet. I like to think hes singing an operatic section on the ascent right before he drops the big bad to his doom.