Circle of Spores minor buff

[ZenBear]

I have a new player in my group that has decided to play a CoS Druid, and in the interest of making her experience as much fun as possible, I’ve done a little research into the class and come up with some minor tweaks.

I’m thinking that in order to compensate for the inherent weakness of the poison damage type, all spore effects will do two-type damage, poison and necrotic. This overcomes several monsters’ Immunities, though most higher level undead have Immunity and/or Resistance to one or both, and all ethereal type undead are fully immune. It strikes me as odd that a subclass that has explicit motivation to kill high level undead is so incapable of doing so...

I also want to make Symbiotic Entity activate with a bonus action so they can still attack on that turn, and have its damage bonus to melee attacks do two-type damage and scale with level on par with cantrips (1d6 @ 2, 2d6 @ 5, etc).

Thoughts? Will this be too strong, or not make much difference? I want melee to be a viable option for her in the late game, if we ever get there.

[KOLE]

IMO, Circle of Spores is a very, very strong subclass that turns Druids into awesome gishes. I think the poison resistance issue is overblown, unless the campaign has a special emphasis on undead. Even then, I think its good as is.

[Trustypeaches]

IMO, Circle of Spores is a very, very strong subclass that turns Druids into awesome gishes. I think the poison resistance issue is overblown, unless the campaign has a special emphasis on undead. Even then, I think its good as is.How does adding 1d6 poison damage to a druid’s Single melee attack turn them into an “awesome gish”?

It’s not like they get extra attack or even SCAG cantrips.

[KOLE]

How does adding 1d6 poison damage to a druid’s Single melee attack turn them into an “awesome gish”?

It’s not like they get extra attack or even SCAG cantrips.

They also get a metric ton of temp hit points, and you don’t need extra attack when you can shillelagh/thorn whip/cast a spell AND attack for decent damage as a reaction.

[sophontteks]

OP you are suggesting a lot of buffs to a UA class and I'd tread very carefully here. None of them are needed, and some could be abused.

Poison damage resistance.
The damage is already split between necrotic and poison. Halo is necrotic damage while the bonus weapon damage is poison. In fact the only poison damage at all is the 1d6 bonus weapon damage. There is no need to complicate this by splitting damage types on both. Its more work for a very minimal gain. If this was a concern I'd suggest just allowing elemental adept to work with the bonus 1d6 damage, so the player has an option if they want it.

Bonus action symbiotic entity
Symbiotic entity lasts 10 minutes, so the player can cast it before combat begins, unlike 1 minute duration spells and effects. They already don't need to waste their first action on it unless they are surprised by combat. Furthermore Shillelagh is going to be a natural pick for any spore druid, and it is a bonus action cantrip. Technically RAW you can't do two bonus actions. Even if allowed, the gains are minimal because at the end of the day they still need to waste an action getting their two buffs up if they are surprised.

Scaling damage
I'd be careful with this. Most damage buffs do not scale, and this ability is not a cantrip. What if your player decides to stack this with a cantrip through magic initiate? This feat is already very attractive to the player for the SCAG melee cantrips, and they will almost certainly pick it. Now both effects are scaling on top of the reaction damage. That's quite a lot of damage for a primary caster to be dishing out.


How does adding 1d6 poison damage to a druid’s Single melee attack turn them into an “awesome gish”?

It’s not like they get extra attack or even SCAG cantrips.
Because that's not their only ability?
They also do damage every round with a reaction that scales with level, have Shillelagh to change the stat to their casting stat, and gain temporary hit points. That is very gish.

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, I'd just change it so that when they use their features, they can deal damage in this spread that they choose when they use their Wild Shape:


Normal: Poison
-1: Necrotic
-2: Acid

The idea being that they adapt their spores to suit the opposition, with slightly differing methods.

And that'd cover any major concern regarding resistances.

[Rukelnikov]

I don't think anything will break by giving her a secondary damage type, though I am of the mind that there's nothing wrong with certain characters being bad matchups for certain encounters.

The thing is, at lvl 5 adding 2d6 to each attack may not seem that much if you are only doing 1 attack per turn, its less than 5th lvl Sneak Attack, but she could dual wield, and that would now mean 4d6 extra damage a round. Even if she doesn't dual wield or MC for Extra Attack, by lvl 7 she'll learn Polymorph, the de facto form, T-Rex, has 2 attacks, by changing Symbiotic entity to BA, she could activate entity, and cast polymorph in a single round, and then hit for ridiculous damage (i'll admit T-Rex hits like a truck all on its own, but this would take it even further).

If you don't think she's gonna do any of that, and you are actually more worried she'll end up underpowered than overpowered, you could do the following change:

"Your melee weapon attacks deal an extra 1d6 poison damage to any target they hit."

changes to:

"Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d6 poison damage to the target."

Then increase the damage in the same intervals as the rest of the spores abilities, 6th(2d6), 10th(3d6), 14th(4d6)

This would allow her to be a competent melee damage dealer, and she can activate this and Shillelagh on her first combat turn, which makes a pretty competent melee combatant.

[Trustypeaches]

Because that's not their only ability?
They also do damage every round with a reaction that scales with level, have Shillelagh to change the stat to their casting stat, and gain temporary hit points. That is very gish.
But melee is virtually never going to be their best option past Tier 1, and compares poorly with other actual gishes like swords/valor bards, bladesingers, or bladelocks in terms of damage output.

They get a tiny bonus to their melee damage output and some extra bulk, but I wouldn't say that necessarily makes them a gish.

[sophontteks]

But melee is virtually never going to be their best option past Tier 1, and compares poorly with other actual gishes like swords/valor bards, bladesingers, or bladelocks in terms of damage output.

They get a tiny bonus to their melee damage output and some extra bulk, but I wouldn't say that necessarily makes them a gish.
Funny that you included valor bards when the only offensive thing they get is a second attack....:smallconfused:

The same argument applies to them. Their attack is not their best option. But they are gishes just like spore druids.

[Trustypeaches]

Funny that you included valor bards when the only offensive thing they get is a second attack....:smallconfused:

The same argument applies to them. Their attack is not their best option. But they are gishes just like spore druids.A second attack doubles their resourceless, at-will damage output with weapons, which is a lot more than the spore Druid will ever be able to output. Melee often is the Valor Bard’s best option: when they already have their concentration occupied or they don’t want to expand spell slots or dealing damage is critical (since bards lack many direct damage abilities). Also it doubles their opportunities to shove or grapple foes with expertise athletics.

They also get the ability to cast cantrips as a bonus action after using the Attack action in tier 3. They can also use magical secrets for spells that improve their weapon damage output, such as Swift Quiver or Holy Weapon.

Meanwhile an extra 1d6 to melee attacks might as well be a ribbon for the Spore Druid. They are tanky casters, not gishes. While the Spore Druid’s melee option gets outclassed by a scaling cantrip, Valor’s weapon options are relevant past Tier 1.

[sophontteks]

A second attack doubles their resourceless, at-will damage output with weapons, which is a lot more than the spore Druid will ever be able to output. Melee often is the Valor Bard’s best option: when they already have their concentration occupied or they don’t want to expand spell slots or dealing damage is critical (since bards lack many direct damage abilities). Also it doubles their opportunities to shove or grapple foes with expertise athletics.

They also get the ability to cast cantrips as a bonus action after using the Attack action in tier 3. They can also use magical secrets for spells that improve their weapon damage output, such as Swift Quiver or Holy Weapon.

Meanwhile an extra 1d6 to melee attacks might as well be a ribbon for the Spore Druid. They are tanky casters, not gishes. While the Spore Druid’s melee option gets outclassed by a scaling cantrip, Valor’s weapon options are relevant past Tier 1.
Its not a lot more. Its not more at all. Its actually the same damage. They both do the same average damage, and they both use their melee option after already expending their concentration spell.

I did the math. If both have a +3 to their attack stat at level 6 the bard will do 15 damage and the druid will do 18 damage. Bard damage would be less commonly resisted. Druids can tie their attack stat to their wisdom. Bards con't have to make a con save for damage. Druids can make a ranged attack as a reaction every round while casting. Bards can cast a cantrip late game. Druids can raise zombies.

Semantics. They both have different advantages with their styles, but all things considered they are gishes of the exact same breed.

[KOLE]

Its not a lot more. Its not more at all. Its actually the same damage. They both do the same average damage, and they both use their melee option after already expending their concentration spell.

I did the math. If both have a +3 to their attack stat at level 6 the bard will do 15 damage and the druid will do 18 damage. Bard damage would be less commonly resisted. Druids can tie their attack stat to their wisdom. Bards con't have to make a con save for damage. Druids can make a ranged attack as a reaction every round while casting. Bards can cast a cantrip late game. Druids can raise zombies.

Semantics. They both have different advantages with their styles, but all things considered they are gishes of the exact same breed.

+1 to this, though I’d give an extra point in the Druids favor for all that Temp HP they get twice per short rest. I’ve seen a min maxed Spore druid in action, they can be scary.

[ZenBear]

Alright, comments noted, thanks for the feedback! I don’t feel compelled to adjust the damage type so much, but I do still want to fix melee. I’ll adjust the wording so that you have to take the attack action in order to gain the bonus damage so there’s no chance for Booming Blade cheese, though to be honest she’s brand new to D&D so I doubt she’d even know how or care to try, but I still want to add scaling dice. I don’t want Chill Touch to out damage her melee or she should just be casting instead. So at 11th and 17th levels she gets an extra damage die. I suppose I’ll leave Symbiotic Entity as a standard action to activate.

[Trustypeaches]

Its not a lot more. Its not more at all. Its actually the same damage. They both do the same average damage, and they both use their melee option after already expending their concentration spell.

I did the math. If both have a +3 to their attack stat at level 6 the bard will do 15 damage and the druid will do 18 damage. Bard damage would be less commonly resisted. Druids can tie their attack stat to their wisdom. Bards con't have to make a con save for damage. Druids can make a ranged attack as a reaction every round while casting. Bards can cast a cantrip late game. Druids can raise zombies.I see.

The difference between our opinions is that you consider the spore druid a gish because it has features that reward being in melee range, whereas my metric for a gish is that they have features that reward them for using melee attacks. By your definition, I agree that the spore druid is a gish.