Redcloak’s first epic feat

[Fish]

Redcloak is going through the dungeons with an epic lich sorcerer and an MiTD. Is he gaining any XP from this? Assuming that he is, it shouldn’t be long before Redcloak hits epic levels. Depending how many doors, how much is behind each door, and how fast they can grind, it might be more than one level.

What do you think his epic feat(s) will be? Something to aid the cause? Something to thwart Xykon? Something to beat back the Order?

[Peelee]

I don't think we'll ever be given any indication that Redloak has hit epic level.

[CriticalFailure]

I wonder if a goblin has ever reached epic levels in this world's history. It would be a kind of cool milestone if not.

[HorizonWalker]

Given that Redcloak is a Cleric, a primary spellcaster, I'd wager that his very first Epic feat is going to be Epic Spellcasting, because, well. It's Epic Spellcasting. It lets you research and cast Epic Spells. Why wouldn't you take it as soon as it's available?

[Peelee]

Given that Redcloak is a Cleric, a primary spellcaster, I'd wager that his very first Epic feat is going to be Epic Spellcasting, because, well. It's Epic Spellcasting. It lets you research and cast Epic Spells. Why wouldn't you take it as soon as it's available?

Because that was more Dorukan's shtick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15415463&postcount=331).:smallwink:

[Fish]

Why wouldn't you take it as soon as it's available?
If Redcloak reaches epic level and it becomes part of the story, I imagine he would take something that could be immediately applied to the story. Researching epic spells doesn’t mean much when you’ve got only days left before the world ends.

[Jasdoif]

If Redcloak reaches epic level and it becomes part of the story, I imagine he would take something that could be immediately applied to the story. Researching epic spells doesn’t mean much when you’ve got only days left before the world ends.You really think he'd pass up the ability to create a new Gate to apply the Gate ritual to (or replace the entire Gate ritual with)? If the world ends, it doesn't matter what he chooses, since the rifts will be inaccessible at best.

[Rogar Demonblud]

But he doesn't know that. And since he needs to get to level 21 to get an Epic Feat, I doubt it will come up (we know he just made 17 when he wiped out the Azure City Resistance last book).

[Jasdoif]

But he doesn't know that.Doesn't know...what?

[tyckspoon]

Given that Redcloak is a Cleric, a primary spellcaster, I'd wager that his very first Epic feat is going to be Epic Spellcasting, because, well. It's Epic Spellcasting. It lets you research and cast Epic Spells. Why wouldn't you take it as soon as it's available?

I fully expect this will be glossed over or work differently if it's ever bought up in-comic, but the main reason would be because doing anything useful with Epic spells as presented in the rules requires ludicrous amounts of time, money, XP expenditure, and being able to hit stupidly high Spellcraft DCs to cast them. A brand-new level 21 character rarely has the resources to do anything with Epic Spells that they couldn't do better with their regular Level 9 spells. Redcloak would be a bit of an exception because he can go back to Gobbotopia and get a bunch of low level casters to contribute to his spells, which is by far the easiest/most scalable way to bring the Epic Spell rules into something approaching reasonable application.

As a very first Epic feat, getting Level 10 spell slots (not the same thing as Epic Spells, because D&D doesn't know what clarity in writing is) so you can prep more level 9 spells in them and/or use metamagics on higher level spells is usually more useful. Epic Casting is something you want to look at more around 24 or 27, when you have resources more appropriate to Epic characters instead of not much more than what you had at level 20 (or you cheese the everloving hell out of it.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Doesn't know...what?

The whole deal with the rifts, the Snarl, the Graveyard of the Worlds or that The Plan's Side B is really just assisted deific suicide. The amount of data he's lacking is downright shocking.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

The whole deal with the rifts, the Snarl, the Graveyard of the Worlds or that The Plan's Side B is really just assisted deific suicide. The amount of data he's lacking is downright shocking.

Xykon mentions they could make gates if they were both epic level after they destroyed Lirian's.

The point Jasdoif was making was that if RC made his own gate they don't need to worry about 5 open rifts meaning god-based annihilation. It doesn't matter if he doesn't know the 'side B' of The Plan. We don't even know if the plan has a 'side B'. All we know is, there's a world in the gates and also the Snarl does exist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html). What RC doesn't know is only in the blackmail side of things, where the gods might not heed his request for goblin rights.

[Fish]

What about, say, Undead Mastery?

[CriticalFailure]

The whole deal with the rifts, the Snarl, the Graveyard of the Worlds or that The Plan's Side B is really just assisted deific suicide. The amount of data he's lacking is downright shocking.

I don't see why it's shocking he doesn't know things only the creator deities would have a way to know?

[Jasdoif]

The whole deal with the rifts, the Snarl, the Graveyard of the Worlds or that The Plan's Side B is really just assisted deific suicide. The amount of data he's lacking is downright shocking.It's true, Redcloak doesn't have the information that the Snarl getting loose almost certainly means the Dark One will die off before there's a new world. If Redcloak knew he was looking at a win-or-lose in the near future, rather than a win-or-win-less-impressively; he'd have far more incentive towards focusing on short-term gains to achieve that win rather than a loss. Without knowing that...being able to recover "Side A" looks like allowing for a better victory without much risk of an actual loss. And doubling down for bigger payoffs is sort of Redcloak's thing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

More like doubling down for the same original payout, despite the fact you've already lost the house, car, pension and college fund. He's pretty much the avatar of sunk cost fallacy.

[Quartz]

I fully expect this will be glossed over or work differently if it's ever bought up in-comic, but the main reason would be because doing anything useful with Epic spells as presented in the rules requires ludicrous amounts of time, money, XP expenditure, and being able to hit stupidly high Spellcraft DCs to cast them. A brand-new level 21 character rarely has the resources to do anything with Epic Spells that they couldn't do better with their regular Level 9 spells.

This is not correct. All Redcloak - or any Epic character - needs to do is reduce the DC of the Epic spell to zero and they can cast Epic spells on the fly. Backlash and spell slot sacrifice are two ways of reducing the DC. Read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre on ENWorld to see what Nwm could do. Nwm was a druid with a Vow of Poverty.

[Goblin_Priest]

Assuming he got there at lvl 17, he's probably still got a while to go to hit lvl 21.

I don't expect him to reach it by the end of the story.

[Redgoblin]

You really think he'd pass up the ability to create a new Gate to apply the Gate ritual to (or replace the entire Gate ritual with)? If the world ends, it doesn't matter what he chooses, since the rifts will be inaccessible at best.

I would also point out that those seals would actually be what Thor wants. Xykon's magic presumably draws on the original 3 quidities, while Redcloak's magic is of the purple.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah I doubt that Redcloak will make it to epic levels but if he does his epic feat will probably be something homebrewed and gate/rift related. I guess I don't see the point of him actually getting there unless it's for something plot related like that. Though I guess if there are going to be negotiations between the human governments and the goblinoids, the goblinoids having an epic character on their side could be significant. There don't seem to be too many floating around.

[Fish]

That’s why I think it’ll be something like Undead Mastery. He’s been under the thumb of Xykon for so long, he may well go for a feat that would give him a slim chance of controlling Xykon. Also, we’ve seen his undead control work before, so it’s been set up.

Yes, I know the chances of him succeeding are not good, but it’d be a great storyline even if he tried and failed.

[CriticalFailure]

That would be pretty entertaining. I highly doubt that Redcloak's charisma is anywhere near 21, but that would be pretty entertaining.

[RatElemental]

I fully expect this will be glossed over or work differently if it's ever bought up in-comic, but the main reason would be because doing anything useful with Epic spells as presented in the rules requires ludicrous amounts of time, money, XP expenditure, and being able to hit stupidly high Spellcraft DCs to cast them. A brand-new level 21 character rarely has the resources to do anything with Epic Spells that they couldn't do better with their regular Level 9 spells. Redcloak would be a bit of an exception because he can go back to Gobbotopia and get a bunch of low level casters to contribute to his spells, which is by far the easiest/most scalable way to bring the Epic Spell rules into something approaching reasonable application.

Depends. If you formulate a spell that has a DC of 0 (by excessive use of drawbacks) you'd have an epic level spell you can research in a single day for free and be able to cast regardless of your ranks in spellcraft.

[Quartz]

That’s why I think it’ll be something like Undead Mastery.

Undead Mastery doesn't change the level of undead you can attempt to control; Undead Mastery only increases the total HD limit of those undead you do control.

The highest-level undead Redcloak can control is level + 4. Assuming no magic relevant items, Xykon is level 23+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23923434&postcount=424), likely level 27+, and probably level 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23929516&postcount=445), so will be immune from attempts to Command Undead until Redcloak is at least level 19 and probably level 25 - a long way off.

[Squire Doodad]

Undead Mastery doesn't change the level of undead you can attempt to control; Undead Mastery only increases the total HD limit of those undead you do control.

The highest-level undead Redcloak can control is level + 4. Assuming no magic relevant items, Xykon is level 23+ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23923434&postcount=424), likely level 27+, and probably level 29 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23929516&postcount=445), so will be immune from attempts to Command Undead until Redcloak is at least level 19 and probably level 25 - a long way off.

I can see him reaching level 19 if the beasties in Monster Hollow are high enough, but getting to level 25 strikes me as implausible unless Xykon is actually like level 35 or something and Redcloak single handed-ly kills him and the monsters are also strong enough to give that ridiculously high level Xykon XP (meaning that in such a circumstance, RC would have had a good chance of gaining a level just from doing a couple doors).

Basically, 19 feels plausible but 25 may well require RC to kill Xykon or something to garner enough XP.

[Nith]

I mean, the lower bound of level 19 is no problem, since the whole idea is that Redcloak would have reached epic level. Epic is level 20+, isn't it? Though the more probable part of the range is out of reach.

[Peelee]

I mean, the lower bound of level 19 is no problem, since the whole idea is that Redcloak would have reached epic level. Epic is level 20+, isn't it? Though the more probable part of the range is out of reach.

21+. 20 is max level for non-epic.

[Squire Doodad]

I mean, the lower bound of level 19 is no problem, since the whole idea is that Redcloak would have reached epic level. Epic is level 20+, isn't it? Though the more probable part of the range is out of reach.

Honestly given that they're having a 4-man group going up against stuff strong enough to give a Epic Lich XP means that RC is probably level 19 now, or at least nearing it. He was 17 not long before taking out the ACUG, so I imagine he's gain at least one level. No evidence to support that though, and I could easily be wrong.

[CriticalFailure]

Wonder if MiTD is raking in XP too. What class do you think he'd take?

[zimmerwald1915]

That’s why I think it’ll be something like Undead Mastery. He’s been under the thumb of Xykon for so long, he may well go for a feat that would give him a slim chance of controlling Xykon. Also, we’ve seen his undead control work before, so it’s been set up.

Yes, I know the chances of him succeeding are not good, but it’d be a great storyline even if he tried and failed.
Redcloak does not believe himself to be under Xykon's thumb. He believes himself to be successfully manipulating Xykon.

[Anymage]

Improved Spell Capacity gets my vote. I wouldn't be surprised to see Red do something epic towards the end of the last book, since you can't have all that buildup between him and Xykon without some pretty major climactic payoff. As other people have noted, Epic Spellcasting is an outside possibility. But given how Rich doesn't seem to like epic spells being mitigated down to nothing, I don't see Red being able to pull that off.


Redcloak does not believe himself to be under Xykon's thumb. He believes himself to be successfully manipulating Xykon.

If Red reasonably believed that Undead Mastery could give him an edge when things went down against Xykon, he'd take the feat in a heartbeat. Xykon may be a tool, but he's an incredibly dangerous one that has to be handled with utmost caution. Any way to improve the control or reduce the risk would be very much appreciated.

[RatElemental]

I could see him both having easy access to and getting some mileage out of Bonus Domain, depending one what domains the dark one has.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Probably worthless. Most domains are just spells already on the cleric list, and the granted powers rarely matter once your levels reach the upper-single digits.

[Vulsutyr]

Maybe Multispell, for an extra Quickened spell per round? In a 1-v-1 casterfight, action economy is a big deal.

[mjasghar]

Since the gate moving spell is part of having the red cloak all he needs is the spell slot and whatever he needs to cast it

[Squire Doodad]

Redcloak does not believe himself to be under Xykon's thumb. He believes himself to be successfully manipulating Xykon.

Plus, wouldn't giving Xykon more HD increase the odds of him resisting control?

[HorizonWalker]

Plus, wouldn't giving Xykon more HD increase the odds of him resisting control?

Undead Mastery doesn't make the Undead you control more powerful. It just means you can control a greater amount of Undead.