Clarification on Polymorph 3.5

[OboTheHobo]

Question 1
Do you keep your advancement modifiers while polymorphed? Say a level 15 barbarian with a 21 in strength [18 base +3 Advancement] gets polymorphed into a Owlbear, is his new str 24? [21 base +3 advancement]

[4. Ability Score: If your character has just attained 4th, 8th, 12th,
16th, or 20th character level, choose one of his or her ability scores
and raise it by 1 point. (It’s okay for a score to go above 18.) [PH page 58]]


Question 2
Everyone and their brother lists Immunities in their polymorph handbooks, doesn't that fall under Special qualities that don't get added in the new form? Does this somehow change when you consider you gain a new Type and Subtype?

Question 3
If you're supposed to keep your Int, Wis, Cha scores in the polymorphed form, do you lose your racial bonus to them and gain no bonus from the form you're in?

Say a level 3 Dwarven bard Cha 12 [Base 14 -2 racial] polymorphs into a human does he retain his -2 racial bonus to his Cha score as a human?

Question 4
The following line from [Alter Self] let's me know I keep my Half-celestial template (or at least some of its qualities) even though my form has changed "You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack)." Doesn't that mean I would keep the stat bonuses it gives as well? [Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4]

I'm looking at polymorphing my level 15 half-celestial wizard into an [Angel, Planetar] with PaO, I want to be sure I end with a net positive result so I don't end up with a permanent debuff till I can dispell the effects

I apologize for any bad grammar or misspellings, I am typing this out on my phone and I will do my best to make corrections where & when I can.

[Âmesang]

I believe the intent is to use the chosen creature's default Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution for ease-of-use more than anything else …but if you've got the time to prepare the stats ahead of time, I figure house-ruling adjusted stats wouldn't be too bad; the idea I had in mind was to subtract 10 from your even physical stats and 11 from your odd physical stats, turning them into "pseudo-racial modifiers," then applying them to the physical scores of the chosen creature.

For example, the average wolf has a Strength of 13. My sorceress, Quintessa, has a Strength of 7 (–4 "racial modifier"), which would result in her polymorphing into a wolf with a Strength of 9 …whereas my ranger, Den Bloodsoul, has a Strength of 18 (+8 "racial modifier"), resulting in her polymorphing into a wolf with a Strength of 21.

Naturally this provides a significant advantage to those who are already particular strong/tough/agile, and less optimal to those who aren't so physically adept. :smallconfused:

[ExLibrisMortis]

(1) No. Every four levels, you increase your score. This increase is not a bonus; it's a change to the underlying number.

(2) Immunities due to type aren't extraordinary abilities, so you do get them.

(3) Polymorph doesn't change those scores, so those racial modifiers stay.

(4) No. Ability adjustments aren't (Su) or (Sp).

[Kayblis]

1) No. Your score increases do just that, your natural score is one higher. You don't keep them when changing physical scores in any case.

2) Immunities usually come from the Type and Subtype of the creature, and those are the useful ones everyone talks about.

3)You just keep your normal scores. No adjustment is changed.

4)Stat bonuses are racial modifiers. You lose them too unless it's a stat you keep(mental ones).

This game doesn't ask you to remember your racial and level-up modifiers every time you cast a temporary spell. Your base stats are your base stats, when you use an ability like Polymorph to change something you change them in full. The only stat changes you keep are extras like enhancement, luck, sacred etc. bonuses.

[OboTheHobo]

[QUOTE=ExLibrisMortis;23975458]

(2) Immunities due to type aren't extraordinary abilities, so you do get them.


[Alter self] "You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or [special qualities] not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth."

It's the wording of, "you do not gain any special qualities not listed" that throws me off for that ruling because immunities are definitely listed in monster descriptions under special qualities.

[Crake]

[QUOTE=ExLibrisMortis;23975458]

(2) Immunities due to type aren't extraordinary abilities, so you do get them.


[Alter self] "You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or [special qualities] not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth."

It's the wording of, "you do not gain any special qualities not listed" that throws me off for that ruling because immunities are definitely listed in monster descriptions under special qualities.

Alter self does not change your type, wheras polymorph does. It's worth noting that many immunities due to type can definitely be seen as physical qualities. Plants are immune to mind affecting because of their physical nature as plants, [fire] creatures are immune to fire due to their physical fiery nature, etc etc.

[OboTheHobo]

[QUOTE=OboTheHobo;23975471]

Alter self does not change your type, wheras polymorph does. It's worth noting that many immunities due to type can definitely be seen as physical qualities. Plants are immune to mind affecting because of their physical nature as plants, [fire] creatures are immune to fire due to their physical fiery nature, etc etc.

That makes sense, however, where is the line drawn at what is obtained from a new Type and subtype with a polymorphed form, most of the following falls into a creatures Special qualities

Angel Traits
An angel possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.)
Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.


Edit* Line is probably drawn at the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form and any supernatural or spell-like abilities possessed by the new form.

[Remuko]

I believe the intent is to use the chosen creature's default Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution for ease-of-use more than anything else …but if you've got the time to prepare the stats ahead of time, I figure house-ruling adjusted stats wouldn't be too bad; the idea I had in mind was to subtract 10 from your even physical stats and 11 from your odd physical stats, turning them into "pseudo-racial modifiers," then applying them to the physical scores of the chosen creature.

For example, the average wolf has a Strength of 13. My sorceress, Quintessa, has a Strength of 7 (–4 "racial modifier"), which would result in her polymorphing into a wolf with a Strength of 9 …whereas my ranger, Den Bloodsoul, has a Strength of 18 (+8 "racial modifier"), resulting in her polymorphing into a wolf with a Strength of 21.

Naturally this provides a significant advantage to those who are already particular strong/tough/agile, and less optimal to those who aren't so physically adept. :smallconfused:

this disincentivizes casters from morphing themselves and stepping on martial toes, and encourages them to poly their martials instead. i actually like that

[Psyren]

I believe the intent is to use the chosen creature's default Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution for ease-of-use more than anything else …but if you've got the time to prepare the stats ahead of time, I figure house-ruling adjusted stats wouldn't be too bad; the idea I had in mind was to subtract 10 from your even physical stats and 11 from your odd physical stats, turning them into "pseudo-racial modifiers," then applying them to the physical scores of the chosen creature.

For example, the average wolf has a Strength of 13. My sorceress, Quintessa, has a Strength of 7 (–4 "racial modifier"), which would result in her polymorphing into a wolf with a Strength of 9 …whereas my ranger, Den Bloodsoul, has a Strength of 18 (+8 "racial modifier"), resulting in her polymorphing into a wolf with a Strength of 21.

Naturally this provides a significant advantage to those who are already particular strong/tough/agile, and less optimal to those who aren't so physically adept. :smallconfused:

This is basically what Pathfinder polymorph does - modifying the creature's natural stats rather than overwriting them, and thus rewarding you for using it on already strong party members.

[Elkad]

This is basically what Pathfinder polymorph does - modifying the creature's natural stats rather than overwriting them, and thus rewarding you for using it on already strong party members.

Except PF gives you flat stat bonuses that have nothing to do with the target creature type.

[Psyren]

Except PF gives you flat stat bonuses that have nothing to do with the target creature type.

1) Hence why I said "basically," rather than "exactly."

2) The stat bonuses are based on the specific polymorph spell you use, which in turn are based on type - e.g. Beast Shape for animals and magical beasts, monstrous physique for monstrous humanoids, giant form for giants etc.

[Crake]

2) The stat bonuses are based on the specific polymorph spell you use, which in turn are based on type - e.g. Beast Shape for animals and magical beasts, monstrous physique for monstrous humanoids, giant form for giants etc.

I believe when he said "creature type" he meant "type of creature" rather than the mechanical term "type". So Giant form will give you flat stats whether you turn into an ogre or a fire giant.

[Elkad]

1) Hence why I said "basically," rather than "exactly."

2) The stat bonuses are based on the specific polymorph spell you use, which in turn are based on type - e.g. Beast Shape for animals and magical beasts, monstrous physique for monstrous humanoids, giant form for giants etc.

So your dwarf can turn into a powerful orc and gain 2 str. Or turn into a nimble elf and.... gain 2 str.

I understand nerfing polymorph. But PF made no attempt to make the bonus fit the form at all.
Applying the racial adjustments to your base stats would have been fine. Even if there was a cap to the change. This is something else entirely.

[Jack_Simth]

So your dwarf can turn into a powerful orc and gain 2 str. Or turn into a nimble elf and.... gain 2 str.

I understand nerfing polymorph. But PF made no attempt to make the bonus fit the form at all.
Applying the racial adjustments to your base stats would have been fine. Even if there was a cap to the change. This is something else entirely.Not no attempt. Turn into a halfling and you get +2 dex. They made all the stat adjustments based on the spell and the new form's size, across the board. The consistency is worth a few artifacts.

[Psyren]

So your dwarf can turn into a powerful orc and gain 2 str. Or turn into a nimble elf and.... gain 2 str.

And? Alter Self in 3.5 has no stat adjustments at all, so what's your point?


Not no attempt. Turn into a halfling and you get +2 dex. They made all the stat adjustments based on the spell and the new form's size, across the board. The consistency is worth a few artifacts.

Not only that, but this can get nonsensical fast. Dhampirs and Catfolk are lithe. Dwarves and Lizardfolk are tough. Orcs and Skarn are strong. Then you get to the aquatic, desert, jungle etc. variants. Having one spell cater to all of those humanoids to such a granular level is ridiculous.

[OboTheHobo]

In updating question 1, My DM ruled that since the Advancement bonus is a function of class level, Which is explicitly kept in a polymorphed form, it applies to the new form. Explained to me in the following way "If you polymorph into an elf you are now an elf with 14 wizard levels and thus are entitled to the ability increase any other level 14 wizard is." whether that is right or not, I do not know but woo I guess \0/

[Segev]

PF might have done better by just giving a +2 to a star of the DM’s choice for turning into a medium/small creature, with the guidance that it should go to a physical stat that makes sense for the form chosen.

Then an optional rule (like the quick vs full template for celestial creatures) to strip racial mods and apply those of the new form.

[Eldariel]

PF might have done better by just giving a +2 to a star of the DM’s choice for turning into a medium/small creature, with the guidance that it should go to a physical stat that makes sense for the form chosen.

Then an optional rule (like the quick vs full template for celestial creatures) to strip racial mods and apply those of the new form.

Or just to the stat the creature has the highest (physical) bonus to with default of X in case of none (perhaps just "no changes"). With PF Humans choosing their bonus, I suppose it would only be fair to give the bonus to whatever when turning into a Human.

[lord_khaine]

This is basically what Pathfinder polymorph does - modifying the creature's natural stats rather than overwriting them, and thus rewarding you for using it on already strong party members.

Since we are bringing this up? :smallconfused:

I hate nothing as much in Pathfinder as the way they -utterly- ruined one of the most flavorfull bits of 3.5, namely polymorh and wildshape :smallfurious:
Whoever changed it was a hamfisted hack who should not have been allowed to write the equipment list. Let alone something as delicate as this.

[Psyren]

Since we are bringing this up? :smallconfused:

I hate nothing as much in Pathfinder as the way they -utterly- ruined one of the most flavorfull bits of 3.5, namely polymorh and wildshape :smallfurious:
Whoever changed it was a hamfisted hack who should not have been allowed to write the equipment list. Let alone something as delicate as this.

That "flavor" came with a balance nightmare that has contributed to endless whining about casters dumping their physical stats and still easily taking the martial's job for nearly two decades now. Thanks but no thanks.

If I do have complaints about the newer polymorph, they're (a) the spell wasn't future-proofed to allow it to mimic subsequent polymorph spells like vermin shape, and (b) that casting those newer spells onto the martial character to buff them is more difficult as a result.


PF might have done better by just giving a +2 to a star of the DM’s choice for turning into a medium/small creature, with the guidance that it should go to a physical stat that makes sense for the form chosen.

Then an optional rule (like the quick vs full template for celestial creatures) to strip racial mods and apply those of the new form.

I don't mind this. Of course then you get into confusion around races that only have mental stat bonuses, like Samsarans and Imaskari, but it's still more elegant than not.

[Segev]

I don't mind this. Of course then you get into confusion around races that only have mental stat bonuses, like Samsarans and Imaskari, but it's still more elegant than not.

The idea would be that the spell gives a physical bonus, regardless or your form. The rebuild rule would favor those with only mental bonuses in their base races, but the alternative is to strip or grant mental prowess with physical form.

Could be interesting, but would require some work on defining how much decision-making and language is tied to intellect.

[Jack_Simth]

If I do have complaints about the newer polymorph, they're (a) the spell wasn't future-proofed to allow it to mimic subsequent polymorph spells like vermin shape, and (b) that casting those newer spells onto the martial character to buff them is more difficult as a result.It would have been nice if Pathfinder's Polymorph included a line that said something like "duplicates the effects of any one Sorcerer/Wizard Transmutation(Polymorph) spell of 3rd level or lower", with Greater Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange being written similarly (just using different spell levels).

[Psyren]

The idea would be that the spell gives a physical bonus, regardless or your form. The rebuild rule would favor those with only mental bonuses in their base races, but the alternative is to strip or grant mental prowess with physical form.

Could be interesting, but would require some work on defining how much decision-making and language is tied to intellect.

I'd rather leave the mental stats alone, so I'd be okay with less physical races getting a tiny advantage here.


It would have been nice if Pathfinder's Polymorph included a line that said something like "duplicates the effects of any one Sorcerer/Wizard Transmutation(Polymorph) spell of 3rd level or lower", with Greater Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange being written similarly (just using different spell levels).

We use that exact houserule :smallbiggrin: