2 lessons I realized about 3.5

[gooddragon1]

1st, not as important:
Power attack on a charge or move can slightly make up for not being able to full attack on a charge normally.

2nd, more important:
If the DM throws you into "AMF land", they should realize that you are going to be less effective and throw weaker encounters against you. They also need to ad hoc xp as higher than indicated by cr because it would be a challenge. That's probably true for many cases where the environment is a serious inconvenience as well as perhaps certain creatures. Though sometimes dm's might not interpret things that way.

[noob]

1st, not as important:
Power attack on a charge or move can slightly make up for not being able to full attack on a charge normally.

2nd, more important:
If the DM throws you into "AMF land", they should realize that you are going to be less effective and throw weaker encounters against you. They also need to ad hoc xp as higher than indicated by cr because it would be a challenge. That's probably true for many cases where the environment is a serious inconvenience as well as perhaps certain creatures. Though sometimes dm's might not interpret things that way.

That or make the amf itself count as an encounter.(if it was a lot of antimagic zone traps it would be a whole lot of CR6 traps)

[Crake]

1st, not as important:
Power attack on a charge or move can slightly make up for not being able to full attack on a charge normally.

2nd, more important:
If the DM throws you into "AMF land", they should realize that you are going to be less effective and throw weaker encounters against you. They also need to ad hoc xp as higher than indicated by cr because it would be a challenge. That's probably true for many cases where the environment is a serious inconvenience as well as perhaps certain creatures. Though sometimes dm's might not interpret things that way.

This should apply equally in both directions. Encounters that are trivialized by something (melee big hitter monster by just flying and plinking for example) should award less xp, wheras the reverse (melee only party vs flying ranged enemies) should award more.

[gooddragon1]

This should apply equally in both directions. Encounters that are trivialized by something (melee big hitter monster by just flying and plinking for example) should award less xp, wheras the reverse (melee only party vs flying ranged enemies) should award more.

It's a tricky balance. A dm might want to tell a story without worrying about cr being too high (or low). Players want to able to contribute. I think the reasonable approach might be to remember the general effects of certain things. Low magic campaigns are less power. 32 point buy is higher power. Monsters with certain abilities can be harder in general, beholder amf, dispel magic at will. Stuff like that. Then party composition might be less of an issue as long as the casters reign it in (and the dm remembers that enemy tactics can also have an effect). It's not perfect, but it could be the point before diminishing returns takes effect in efforts to balance things out. Maybe go a reasonable bit higher or lower on ad hoc to tell the story and let party and player skill work with the situations.

Just imo.

[Remuko]

This should apply equally in both directions. Encounters that are trivialized by something (melee big hitter monster by just flying and plinking for example) should award less xp, wheras the reverse (melee only party vs flying ranged enemies) should award more.

ive always been wary about this, because if an enemy cant fly and the party is smart enough to exploit that, I dont think they should be punished with getting less exp for it. in fact, id personally probably award bonus exp to parties that find creative ways to defeat foes (not saying that flying vs flightless is an example of creative but its similar context).

[RoboEmperor]

ive always been wary about this, because if an enemy cant fly and the party is smart enough to exploit that, I dont think they should be punished with getting less exp for it. in fact, id personally probably award bonus exp to parties that find creative ways to defeat foes (not saying that flying vs flightless is an example of creative but its similar context).

Example: Hydra. You're not supposed to fight it head on melee vs melee. Taking away xp because the PCs exploited a weakness is a ******ed thing to do as a DM.

AMF however is an added challenge that's not part of the creature so it would award more xp. If the AMF was part of the creature's abilities then no extra XP should be given.

[King of Nowhere]

Any DM I dealt with (granted, weren't many) never gave much weight to the xp-per-encounter table. more likely xp per sessions were awaarded, with the dm controlling the speed at which the party was supposed to proceed. ok, if you spend the whole session exploring the city you won't get much xp, but you are not directly rewarded for murderhoboing around.

Anyway, level-appropriate encounters are easy to the point of being boring, especially once the pparty starts being mildly optimized. If you want to challenge them, you have to go above their level. and then if you follow the xp table you risk giving the party a couple levels per sessions.

[Crake]

Example: Hydra. You're not supposed to fight it head on melee vs melee. Taking away xp because the PCs exploited a weakness is a ******ed thing to do as a DM.

AMF however is an added challenge that's not part of the creature so it would award more xp. If the AMF was part of the creature's abilities then no extra XP should be given.

You need to remember that the standard environment is closed quarters, aka dungeons. In a situation like that, the hydra can still hit people even if they're flying, thanks to it's vertical reach. However, if you're changing the setting to somewhere where you can just fly out of it's reach and attack it with impunity, then yes, I would say that should warrant an ad-hoc reduction in xp, whether or not you're going to exploit that weakness.

The DMG does say that the encounter should be judged on it's merits, and the merits of fighting a big creature in an open space is: you can spread out, have it chase one of you, while the rest all use ranged attacks. This is an inherent weakness in the encounter, making it far easier than it would be in closed quarters, and thus should warrant an XP reduction. Whether or not the players choose to use flight, or any other tactic is irrelevant to the situation at hand.

[Seerow]

You need to remember that the standard environment is closed quarters, aka dungeons.


[Citation Needed]

A Hydra's native environment is a temperate marsh, not a cave or the inside of some cramped dungeon. A temperate marsh is exactly the sort of place you could get away with flying high above blasting at will.

[AnimeTheCat]

[Citation Needed]

A Hydra's native environment is a temperate marsh, not a cave or the inside of some cramped dungeon. A temperate marsh is exactly the sort of place you could get away with flying high above blasting at will.

A temperate marsh is likely to have some sort of tree coverage, or in many places a lot of it, which would grant concealment for the hydra and would count as cover from ranged attacks. Far less ideal than just having free reign over the creature from above. You could lure it out into an opening for sure, but as it starts to lose instinct would probably kick in and it would likely flee, choosing to live over die, unless it was cornered or bound in some way.

[Zaq]

You need to remember that the standard environment is closed quarters, aka dungeons. In a situation like that, the hydra can still hit people even if they're flying, thanks to it's vertical reach. However, if you're changing the setting to somewhere where you can just fly out of it's reach and attack it with impunity, then yes, I would say that should warrant an ad-hoc reduction in xp, whether or not you're going to exploit that weakness.

The DMG does say that the encounter should be judged on it's merits, and the merits of fighting a big creature in an open space is: you can spread out, have it chase one of you, while the rest all use ranged attacks. This is an inherent weakness in the encounter, making it far easier than it would be in closed quarters, and thus should warrant an XP reduction. Whether or not the players choose to use flight, or any other tactic is irrelevant to the situation at hand.

My gut take on this (not RAW, mind you): creativity should be rewarded. If it’s unusual for the PCs to engineer situations where they’re flying and the enemy isn’t, especially if they had to do more than just prep a mass fly spell, that’s cool and interesting and should be rewarded. However, if they always do this and they’re just using their go-to strategy that they’ve used a million times, that definitely doesn’t deserve a bonus. (Not super comfortable with an explicit penalty, but I guess it’s a case-by-case thing. Of course, if it’s a truly dominant strategy that doesn't really have any downsides or ways it can go wrong, I feel like it should be narrated over after the first few times.)

Caveat: many build elements (especially on anyone who isn’t a prepared caster) are inflexible. A fighter can’t stop being specced for (e.g.) tripping and shouldn’t be punished for using tripping as their primary strategy. But hopefully my point is clear.

[daremetoidareyo]

A temperate marsh is likely to have some sort of tree coverage, or in many places a lot of it, which would grant concealment for the hydra and would count as cover from ranged attacks.

You're thinking temperate swamp. Marshes, by definition, have very little tree cover. On the other hand, marsh grasses near to dry patches can typically reach like 15' above the water line, so the concealment option still kinda works.

[AnimeTheCat]

You're thinking temperate swamp. Marshes, by definition, have very little tree cover. On the other hand, marsh grasses near to dry patches can typically reach like 15' above the water line, so the concealment option still kinda works.

You're right. I guess it can still work, but is far less logical for a huge or larger creature. It's probably more likely to dive in deeper pools, if it can or if there are any.

[Crake]

My gut take on this (not RAW, mind you): creativity should be rewarded. If it’s unusual for the PCs to engineer situations where they’re flying and the enemy isn’t, especially if they had to do more than just prep a mass fly spell, that’s cool and interesting and should be rewarded. However, if they always do this and they’re just using their go-to strategy that they’ve used a million times, that definitely doesn’t deserve a bonus. (Not super comfortable with an explicit penalty, but I guess it’s a case-by-case thing. Of course, if it’s a truly dominant strategy that doesn't really have any downsides or ways it can go wrong, I feel like it should be narrated over after the first few times.)

You're definitely right, if, for example, they hydra lives in a musky dungeon, in an enclosed room, and the players decide to literally blow open the roof to the hydra's room to kill it, great job, full xp even though they were competely able to kill the hydra with impunity. The example of the hydra being out in the open on the other hand, wasn't something the players engineered, and as I stated, is an issue with the encounter itself, hence why, no matter what, it should always be docked for xp, because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in closed quarters.


Caveat: many build elements (especially on anyone who isn’t a prepared caster) are inflexible. A fighter can’t stop being specced for (e.g.) tripping and shouldn’t be punished for using tripping as their primary strategy. But hopefully my point is clear.

As I noted, the DMG specifically says that whether or not an encounter should be increased or decreased in xp should be completely independant of the players' specific capabilities. If something is trivialized by something a player has, you need to ask yourself, was the player's exploit something that could be considered a general weakness of the encounter, or was it simply the players having metaphoric scissors to the encounter's paper.

[RoboEmperor]

You're definitely right, if, for example, they hydra lives in a musky dungeon, in an enclosed room, and the players decide to literally blow open the roof to the hydra's room to kill it, great job, full xp even though they were competely able to kill the hydra with impunity. The example of the hydra being out in the open on the other hand, wasn't something the players engineered, and as I stated, is an issue with the encounter itself, hence why, no matter what, it should always be docked for xp, because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in closed quarters.

For pyro hydras why don't we submerge the entire area in lava? Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in a non-lava-submerged battlefield. While we're add it lets add a dead magic zone. Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in a non-dead-magic-zone battlefield. And on top of that lets make the battlefield so small that there is nowhere that is out of reach for the hydra. Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in a non-lava-submerged-non-dead-magic-zone-non-closed-quarters. And while we're add it lets cut all connections to all planes to still render a ton of stuff worthless in case the PCs use invoke magic. Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otheriwse be in a non-lava-submerged-non-dead-magic-zone-non-closed-quarters-non-planar-cut battlefield.

No, a battlefield should only cut xp if it hampers the creature and give bonus xp if it hampers the party. And here you are saying a non-hampered creature should reward less xp because temperate marshes mean inside low roof dungeon. By your logic any creature that has fly-by attack should give more xp for being in a non-dungeon setting with a low rooftop since they shouldn't be able to fly into the sky.

Check the official modules. All of them. They reduce CR because the environment hampers the creature's abilities, not because the environment failed to prevent the PCs from exploiting a weakness. In fact it's the opposite.

We should dock xp for putting the hydra fight in an environment where the PCs can cast force cage because the environment didn't block forcecages and the PCs exploited that.

[Psyren]

You can get around this by not bothering with XP at all. Of course, that's more of a headache in 3.5 than in Pathfinder since tracking XP is expected there.

If the party levels up via story milestone instead, then you don't have to worry about penalizing them if/when they use cleverness to make an encounter easier - they'll level up when they're supposed to regardless. And if instead they power through a harder fight, you can grant them other rewards instead - hero points/"inspiration", favors/services from NPCs, a divine boon of some kind, or even extra treasure if you're feeling especially generous.

[RoboEmperor]

You can get around this by not bothering with XP at all. Of course, that's more of a headache in 3.5 than in Pathfinder since tracking XP is expected there.

If the party levels up via story milestone instead, then you don't have to worry about penalizing them if/when they use cleverness to make an encounter easier - they'll level up when they're supposed to regardless. And if instead they power through a harder fight, you can grant them other rewards instead - hero points/"inspiration", favors/services from NPCs, a divine boon of some kind, or even extra treasure if you're feeling especially generous.

You're playing pathfinder. In 3.5 players use XP as a resource to obtain things far more powerful than a level up.

[Psyren]

You're playing pathfinder. In 3.5 players use XP as a resource to obtain things far more powerful than a level up.

Yes, I said that :smalltongue:

[gooddragon1]

I'd actually be more worried about assigning appropriate challenges than xp. It should be a challenge, but know what is reasonable.

Basically: Tucker's kobolds are not CR 1 (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=pSQHXZeZMube0gKatrSIBw&q=tucker%27s+kobolds&oq=Tucker%27s+&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.1.0.0j46j0j46j0l4.1189.3179..4302...0.0..0.138. 571.1j4......0....1.......3..41j0i131j46i131j46i13 1i275j46i275.21y4IDVsdRw). (I'm not sure if that was the assertion, but I think I heard it mentioned somewhere)

[Crake]

For pyro hydras why don't we submerge the entire area in lava? Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in a non-lava-submerged battlefield. While we're add it lets add a dead magic zone. Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in a non-dead-magic-zone battlefield. And on top of that lets make the battlefield so small that there is nowhere that is out of reach for the hydra. Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otherwise be in a non-lava-submerged-non-dead-magic-zone-non-closed-quarters. And while we're add it lets cut all connections to all planes to still render a ton of stuff worthless in case the PCs use invoke magic. Because the encounter itself is far easier than it would otheriwse be in a non-lava-submerged-non-dead-magic-zone-non-closed-quarters-non-planar-cut battlefield.

No, a battlefield should only cut xp if it hampers the creature and give bonus xp if it hampers the party. And here you are saying a non-hampered creature should reward less xp because temperate marshes mean inside low roof dungeon. By your logic any creature that has fly-by attack should give more xp for being in a non-dungeon setting with a low rooftop since they shouldn't be able to fly into the sky.

Check the official modules. All of them. They reduce CR because the environment hampers the creature's abilities, not because the environment failed to prevent the PCs from exploiting a weakness. In fact it's the opposite.

We should dock xp for putting the hydra fight in an environment where the PCs can cast force cage because the environment didn't block forcecages and the PCs exploited that.

You understand that most monsters, regardless of the "environment" line, are actually balanced and playtested around being inside a dungeon. Has it ever occured to you why dragons are so hilariously low CR? Maybe it has to do with the fact that inside a dungeon, their amazing outdoor mobility is quite reduced. And no, according to my logic an outdoor flier should reward more xp, because being outdoors isn't a weakness to such a creature, it would be a benefit, making the encounter harder, unlike how it would be for a slow melee brute. Ad-hoc xp adjustments aren't a one-size-fits-all thing. You can't say "outdoors, thus X% more/less", that's completely counter to the meaning of ad-hoc.

Also, no, XP adjustments shouldn't be specifically limited to when one side is hampered. The DMG example is specifically orcs on hang-gliders, one side isn't hampered in that scenario, the other side has an advantage. Whether that advantage be the enemies being hampered, or you being helped in some way, the advantage is what matters. For a slow melee brute, big open spaces are an advantage against them, wheras for outdoor fliers, outdoors are an advantage to them, when compared to the "expected" setting of a dungeon environment.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, creatures like the roc for example have no place in a dungeon, and are thus balanced around the fact that they will have space to fly and maneuver, but ultimately it comes down to DM judgement calls.

[MrSandman]

By your logic any creature that has fly-by attack should give more xp for being in a non-dungeon setting with a low rooftop since they shouldn't be able to fly into the sky.



Y And no, according to my logic an outdoor flier should reward more xp, because being outdoors isn't a weakness to such a creature, it would be a benefit, making the encounter harder, unlike how it would be for a slow melee brute.

Am I the only one who is slightly confused by this back-and-forth?

On a side note, I would argue than in such case flying is already accounted for in the creature's CR and it doesn't warrant extra XPs for being in an environment where it can actually use it. Now, an environment where ot can't fly, on the other hand, might count as hampering the creature.

[Crake]

Am I the only one who is slightly confused by this back-and-forth?

On a side note, I would argue than in such case flying is already accounted for in the creature's CR and it doesn't warrant extra XPs for being in an environment where it can actually use it. Now, an environment where ot can't fly, on the other hand, might count as hampering the creature.

I think I misread robo's statement, losing track of the pluses and minuses. Personally, I would consider how mobile and capable a creature is on the ground already. A dragon for example, is quite a capable combtant not only on the ground and in the sky, but in some cases also in the water. If you consider the standard setting for a dragon as a situation where it can't just fly-by attack a party to death with it's breath weapon, then a situation where it can basically attack a party with impunity, even to the point where if someone in the party casts fly on the fighter, he can just out-maneuver the fighter, then yes, i would say that the situation is to the dragon's advantage over what would be the expected setting. Likewise, fighting a dragon with a swim speed underwater would give the dragon a similar advantage, because the aquatic environment isn't the expected setting.

On the other hand, a roc's expected setting is clearly not a dungeon, because on the ground a roc has a miserable 20ft walk speed, and loses it's two talon attacks since it's using them to walk. Similarly, naturally aquatic creatures are expected to be in aquatic environments, and thus don't have an unusual advantage by fighting underwater, wheras say, a mermaid fighting on land with it's 5ft land speed would most certainly be at a disadvantage.

[RoboEmperor]

I think I misread robo's statement, losing track of the pluses and minuses. Personally, I would consider how mobile and capable a creature is on the ground already. A dragon for example, is quite a capable combtant not only on the ground and in the sky, but in some cases also in the water. If you consider the standard setting for a dragon as a situation where it can't just fly-by attack a party to death with it's breath weapon, then a situation where it can basically attack a party with impunity, even to the point where if someone in the party casts fly on the fighter, he can just out-maneuver the fighter, then yes, i would say that the situation is to the dragon's advantage over what would be the expected setting. Likewise, fighting a dragon with a swim speed underwater would give the dragon a similar advantage, because the aquatic environment isn't the expected setting.

On the other hand, a roc's expected setting is clearly not a dungeon, because on the ground a roc has a miserable 20ft walk speed, and loses it's two talon attacks since it's using them to walk. Similarly, naturally aquatic creatures are expected to be in aquatic environments, and thus don't have an unusual advantage by fighting underwater, wheras say, a mermaid fighting on land with it's 5ft land speed would most certainly be at a disadvantage.

Show me RAW that a hydra and dragon's expected environment is a dungeon where they can't fly and that the authors gave them fly by attack to cripple them even further by wasting a feat they will never use. Because I'm remembering Age of Worms and all the dragon battles in that module was out in the open and nowhere did it say give extra xp for being in the open.

So show me the RAW that says hydras give less xp for being fought in the open and dragons give more xp for being fought in the open so that it can use half of its feats.

Also show me the RAW that aquatic creatures get special treatment while flying creatures get crippled except for specific flying creatures.

The Roc is expected to fight on the ground without flying because the CR is calculated for ground combat without its talons in a dungeon with a low ceiling because 20ft speed is normal and giving them the ability to use their talons is giving them an unfair advantage.

[Elysiume]

You can get around this by not bothering with XP at all. Of course, that's more of a headache in 3.5 than in Pathfinder since tracking XP is expected there.

If the party levels up via story milestone instead, then you don't have to worry about penalizing them if/when they use cleverness to make an encounter easier - they'll level up when they're supposed to regardless. And if instead they power through a harder fight, you can grant them other rewards instead - hero points/"inspiration", favors/services from NPCs, a divine boon of some kind, or even extra treasure if you're feeling especially generous.I've come to significantly prefer milestone leveling. Whether it's an option (Pathfinder) or baked into the game itself (Shadow of the Demon Lord), milestone leveling significantly streamlines things. It gets rid of the internal conflict of "do I try to X because it makes sense or Y because it would give more experience," cuts down on math and tracking ("did I give out exp last session? what are you guys at right now?"), and lets levelups fall at logical and/or thematic points rather than needing to try to carefully orchestrate events to tip over an exp threshold at the right time. Hell's Rebels has certain things that explicitly give an XP reward but, as you said, that can be replaced (and is, in the campaign I'm currently in).

[Crake]

Show me RAW that a hydra and dragon's expected environment is a dungeon where they can't fly and that the authors gave them fly by attack to cripple them even further by wasting a feat they will never use. Because I'm remembering Age of Worms and all the dragon battles in that module was out in the open and nowhere did it say give extra xp for being in the open.

So show me the RAW that says hydras give less xp for being fought in the open and dragons give more xp for being fought in the open so that it can use half of its feats.

Also show me the RAW that aquatic creatures get special treatment while flying creatures get crippled except for specific flying creatures.

The "RAW" is "it's a DM judgement call." Relax. Also, the authors didn't give dragons flyby attack. The authors actually didn't give dragons any feats, the DM's supposed to pick feats for dragons individually.

Since you're such a stickler for the rules though, here is the exact quote on page 39 of the DMG:

Modify all ELs and experience rewards as you see fit, but keep these points in mind.
• Experience points drive the game. Don’t be too stingy or too generous.
• Most encounters do not need modifying. Don’t waste a lot of time worrying about the minutiae. Don’t worry about modifying encounters until after you have played the game a while.
• Bad rolls or poor choices on the PCs’ part should not modify ELs or XP awards. If the encounter is difficult because the players were unlucky or careless, they don’t get more experience.
• Just because the PCs are worn down from prior encounters does not mean that later (more difficult) encounters should gain higher awards. Judge the difficulty of an encounter on its own merits.

[RoboEmperor]

The "RAW" is "it's a DM judgement call." Relax. Also, the authors didn't give dragons flyby attack. The authors actually didn't give dragons any feats, the DM's supposed to pick feats for dragons individually.

Since you're such a stickler for the rules though, here is the exact quote on page 39 of the DMG:

1. Most encounters don't need modifying. It's in the quote you gave.
2. You failed to quote the RAW that says Rocs get special treatment, all other creatures are under the assumed to fight in closed spaces, and a creature's fly speed and feats are not factored into CR
3. Draconomicon begs to differ since every single dragon including the ones given in the MM have flyby attack so your claim that they aren't supposed to fly is incorrect.

[Crake]

1. Most encounters don't need modifying. It's in the quote you gave.

Cool story, I never said anything to the contrary.


2. You failed to quote the RAW that says Rocs get special treatment, all other creatures are under the assumed to fight in closed spaces, and a creature's fly speed and feats are not factored into CR

Understanding the context of the 3.5 playtest and how things were expected to be encountered by the designers based on that is where I got that information. This is an extrapolation of the RAW of "DM's judgement call".


3. Draconomicon begs to differ since every single dragon including the ones given in the MM have flyby attack so your claim that they aren't supposed to fly is incorrect.

I never said they aren't supposed to fly? I said that flight was a tool in their arsenal, but far from their only major ability, if you can even call it a major ability compared to everything else they get. However, giving a dragon the room to fly most certainly counts as an advantage in my book.

[RoboEmperor]

I never said they aren't supposed to fly? I said that flight was a tool in their arsenal, but far from their only major ability, if you can even call it a major ability compared to everything else they get. However, giving a dragon the room to fly most certainly counts as an advantage in my book.

Like giving a Roc the chance to use its talons
or like giving a 5ft ground speed aquatic creature to use its swim speed instead
or like giving a creature with spellcasting the ability to use their spells by not putting them in a dead magic zone

But nope, all these advantages are not factored into their CR at all and their CR should rise when they are allowed to fly or swim

The point of the draconomicon example is to show that WotC expects dragons to fly and your claim that they don't is wrong. Putting them in an environment where neither the PCs or the dragon are hampered is NORMAL so no one gets bonus xp for facing a dragon outside in the open just like hydras don't get their xp rewards reduced for fighting PCs in the open. A monster capable of using 100% of its stat block = NORMAL.

You're claiming casting mass fly results in docked xp for the hydra while casting forcecage does not which is ludicrous.

side note: I'm bothered by your logic not the XP docking itself. At the tables I play at we play at a severe XP penalty so that our high powered characters don't become epic in one week so I don't care if a DM reduces XP reward. In fact I welcome it as it's the only way I can go all out without breaking one aspect of the game.

Aquatic Creatures and flying creatures give NORMAL xp when fought in an environment that lets them use 100% of their stat block. Flying creatures give DOCKED xp when fought in an environment that prevents them from utilizing part of their stat block (aka fly speed). And creatures that don't fly don't get their CR docked because they fight in the open. Maybe if they're fighting underwater their XP is docked but definitely not when they're in the open. The only creatures whose XP get docked fighting in the open are creatures who are designed to NOT fight in the open and can't utilize their crucial combat strategies in the open. Stealthy creatures for example.

[Crake]

Like giving a Roc the chance to use its talons
or like giving a 5ft ground speed aquatic creature to use its swim speed instead
or like giving a creature with spellcasting the ability to use their spells by not putting them in a dead magic zone

But nope, all these advantages are not factored into their CR at all and their CR should rise when they are allowed to fly or swim

The point of the draconomicon example is to show that WotC expects dragons to fly and your claim that they don't is wrong. Putting them in an environment where neither the PCs or the dragon are hampered is NORMAL so no one gets bonus xp for facing a dragon outside in the open just like hydras don't get their xp rewards reduced for fighting PCs in the open. A monster capable of using 100% of its stat block = NORMAL.

You're claiming casting mass fly results in docked xp for the hydra while casting forcecage does not which is ludicrous.

side note: I'm bothered by your logic not the XP docking itself. At the tables I play at we play at a severe XP penalty so that our high powered characters don't become epic in one week so I don't care if a DM reduces XP reward. In fact I welcome it as it's the only way I can go all out without breaking one aspect of the game.

Aquatic Creatures and flying creatures give NORMAL xp when fought in an environment that lets them use 100% of their stat block. Flying creatures give DOCKED xp when fought in an environment that prevents them from utilizing part of their stat block (aka fly speed). And creatures that don't fly don't get their CR docked because they fight in the open. Maybe if they're fighting underwater their XP is docked but definitely not when they're in the open. The only creatures whose XP get docked fighting in the open are creatures who are designed to NOT fight in the open and can't utilize their crucial combat strategies in the open. Stealthy creatures for example.

I guess if you're going to continue to facetiously present and argue against strawman representations of my points, we can't really have a productive discussion.

[rrwoods]

You can get around this by not bothering with XP at all. Of course, that's more of a headache in 3.5 than in Pathfinder since tracking XP is expected there.

If the party levels up via story milestone instead, then you don't have to worry about penalizing them if/when they use cleverness to make an encounter easier - they'll level up when they're supposed to regardless. And if instead they power through a harder fight, you can grant them other rewards instead - hero points/"inspiration", favors/services from NPCs, a divine boon of some kind, or even extra treasure if you're feeling especially generous.
It actually isn’t all that hard to do level by milestones with XP. My current group has an LA+1 character in it that has bought off his level adjust. The moment we diverged in XP, the DM decided what the base XP amount was based on story progression, then modified it for the Goliath by looking up that amount of XP in the table in the DMG.

[RoboEmperor]

I guess if you're going to continue to facetiously present and argue against strawman representations of my points, we can't really have a productive discussion.

It's not a strawman. You are arbitrarily calling dragon's flight speed an advantage that isn't factored into their CR by claiming WotC intends dragons to be grounded for their fights without any proof and claiming aquatic creatures and rocs' swim/fly speed aren't advantages because, once again, by your own arbitrary reasoning. I've been pointing out just how ludicrous it is to call one creature's fly speed an unfair advantage and another creature's fly speed as not an advantage. I've also been pointing out just how ludicrous it is to dock xp against a hydra for using mass fly but not forcecage.

If a creature can use 100% of its stat block it grants full xp. If not then you dock xp. This is universal for all creatures, and dragons don't get special treatment because of your arbitrary reasoning. Their flight speed is not an unfair advantage. Likewise if an environment doesn't hamper a creature it doesn't dock xp. Hydras fought in the open grant full xp. And casting mass fly has no repercussions to the xp reward.

Mass fly reducing encounter xp for being used on creatures who do not have a ranged attack or flight is arbitrary and you have no foundation for this claim.
Dragons must be fought indoors and their flight speed is not factored into their CR while Rocs and every other creature's flight speed is is arbitrary and you have no foundation for this claim.

Flying dragons have no more "advantage" against the PCs than flying Rocs, and your reasoning that Dragons having strong ground combat capabilities as grounds for claiming their flight speed is not factored into their CR is arbitrary and you have no foundation for this claim.

Don't be arbitrary. Treat all monsters equally. Either all monster's flight speeds are included in their CR, or none of their flight speeds are included in their CR. And treat all spells equally. Flight granting spells are just as legitimate as opponent crippling spells so claiming that one spell reduces encounter xp while the other doesn't is ludicrous. Don't be a dragoncist or a spellcist. Equality to all.

[Crake]

It's not a strawman. You are arbitrarily calling dragon's flight speed an advantage that isn't factored into their CR by claiming WotC intends dragons to be grounded for their fights without any proof and claiming aquatic creatures and rocs' swim/fly speed aren't advantages because, once again, by your own arbitrary reasoning. I've been pointing out just how ludicrous it is to call one creature's fly speed an unfair advantage and another creature's fly speed as not an advantage. I've also been pointing out just how ludicrous it is to dock xp against a hydra for using mass fly but not forcecage.

Again with the strawman, you literally can't help yourself can you? I didn't say to dock a hydra fight for mass fly, I said to dock a hydra fight for being out in the open. Regardless of whether or not the players use flight, a slow brute can easily be kited out in the open, and that is a disadvantage to the monster, nothing more to be said. If you read the points in the DMG, it says to judge an encounter on it's own merits, not how the players solve it. Thus it's not about the players casting fly. They could, as I pointed out before, just as easily spread out so the hydra can only chase one of them down at a time, keep at just enough range so the hydra can never get an attack off against the person it's chasing, while the rest just barrage it with ranged attacks until it's dead. This is only possible because it's out in the open, thus fighting in the open is an inherent disadvantage to the hydra regardless of how the players handle it. Even if the players charge into melee and get shredded, the encounter is still reduced in xp, the fact that the players handled it poorly is irrelevant.


If a creature can use 100% of its stat block it grants full xp. If not then you dock xp. This is universal for all creatures, and dragons don't get special treatment because of your arbitrary reasoning. Their flight speed is not an unfair advantage. Likewise if an environment doesn't hamper a creature it doesn't dock xp. Hydras fought in the open grant full xp. And casting mass fly has no repercussions to the xp reward.

It's not about whether or not a creature can use 100% of it's statblock or not. It's about whether one side is at a particular disadvantage over another. If the party is fighting a spellcaster in an AMF, sure the party is at a disadvantage, but the spellcaster is at even MORE of a disadvantage. Thus the spellcaster naturally will be reduced in XP.


Mass fly reducing encounter xp for being used on creatures who do not have a ranged attack or flight is arbitrary and you have no foundation for this claim.

Again, player abilities are irrelevant to the situation at hand, and I will ignore any future arguments that bring up player abilities, because whether or not an encounter should be docked or boosted in terms of XP should stand entirely on the encounter's own merits, and should be entirely party independant.


Dragons must be fought indoors and their flight speed is not factored into their CR while Rocs and every other creature's flight speed is is arbitrary and you have no foundation for this claim.

Dragons suffer no inherent disadvantage for fighting on the ground, and dungeon environments can often be big enough to allow a dragon to still fly. The advantage however of being able to fly out in the open, and be able to completely dictate the pace of an encounter is indeed an advantage that the dragon has if fought out in the open.


Flying dragons have no more "advantage" against the PCs than flying Rocs, and your reasoning that Dragons having strong ground combat capabilities as grounds for claiming their flight speed is not factored into their CR is arbitrary and you have no foundation for this claim.

A roc still needs to get into melee to fight, thus it's flight doesn't give it the ability to control an encounter like it does for a dragon, not to mention that it loses 2/3rds of it's natural attacks while grounded. An inherent disadvantage for the roc. If however the roc was fought inside a dungeon where it could fly, vs out in the open where it can fly, the encounter pretty much plays the same, thus fighting out in the open offers no inherent advantage for the roc, no xp penalty or boost.


Don't be arbitrary.

Considering I can quite clearly show you the reasoning behind all my statements, it's quite clear none of my statements have been "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system."


Treat all monsters equally.

I will not treat all monsters equally, because not all monsters are equal.


Either all monster's flight speeds are included in their CR, or none of their flight speeds are included in their CR. And treat all spells equally. Flight granting spells are just as legitimate as opponent crippling spells so claiming that one spell reduces encounter xp while the other doesn't is ludicrous. Don't be a dragoncist or a spellcist. Equality to all.

Again, it's not about the flight, it's about being out in the open and being able to dictate the pace of an encounter. Flight itself is not the issue, an open battleground is. For the dragon, it's an advantage, for the roc, it is not.

[Psyren]

Whelp, seems to be moot now.

For the record, I agree that an encounter's EL should take into account all factors - including nonstandard terrain or tactics.

[johnbragg]

My personal preference, in 3X, is to just count Encounters, not XP, and you level up every 10 Encounters. Some encounters are abnormally Easy (x1/2), some are abnormally Hard (x2).
Easy and HArd can be because they're tough/weak monsters, or because the situation is favorable/unfavorable.
If you're lower-level than the rest of the party, the encounter might be Hard for you but Average for everyone else.