Are the Primordials and Archomentals in D&D lore the same?

[Mr Blue]

I've read on some wikis that they're indeed the same beings, at least as of 4e.

Just for clarification, when I say "Primordials," I'm referring to the ancient, godlike beings of the Elemental Chaos who fought the Estelar (the Astral gods, AKA "the gods" who are now in charge) during the Dawn War. And when I say "Archomentals," I'm referring to the elemental princes: the most powerful of the elementals.

[Naanomi]

The Dawn War concept seems to have been ignored in writing the 5e fluff all together

[Zuras]

I believe Primordials are a 4e concept.

Archomentals are a 1st edition concept. Originally there were just evil ones, elemental versions of the Demon Princes and Archdevils, but by 2nd edition they were fleshed out with good, evil and neutral versions, with the neutral versions being significantly stronger.

Whether they are the same in your personal lore really depends on how much consolidation you want to do.

[Naanomi]

The neutral archoelementals were developed into actual Gods sometime during the 2e development cycle (Akadi, Istishia, Kossuth, and Grumbar

[Rafaelfras]

The Dawn War concept seems to have been ignored in writing the 5e fluff all together

Amém
Let it be forggoten so it never threaten the Realms again.


"Archomentals," I'm referring to the elemental princes: the most powerful of the elementals.



The Archomentals are present and the adventure "Princes of the Apocalipse " features the princes of elemental evil Yan C Bin, Olydra, Ogremoch and Imix

[JackPhoenix]

Amém
Let it be forggoten so it never threaten the Realms again.

The Archomentals are present and the adventure "Princes of the Apocalipse " features the princes of elemental evil Yan C Bin, Olydra, Ogremoch and Imix

Maegera the Dawn Titan is in SKT. It's a primordial.
Dendar the Night Serpent is in one of the ToA AL modules. It's refered to as as "one of the Primordials that lost the war against the gods". Fun fact: if you can't defeat it, it'll destroy the whole planet in a "cutscene" and make the characters unusuable in further AL adventures, even if they aren't killed during the fight.

[Millstone85]

SCAG makes a major reference to primordials and the Dawn War.
Another legend asserts that Io created the dragons at the birth of the world, but dragonborn did not yet exist. Then, during the Dawn War, Io was killed by the primordial known as Erek-Hus, the King of Terror. With a rough-hewn axe of adamantine, the behemoth split Io from head to tail, cleaving the dragon-god into two equal halves, which rose up as new gods--Bahamut and Tiamat. Droplets of Io's blood, spattered across the world, became the first dragonborn.

They are also integral to the backstory of Abeir, a world that Ao the Overgod duplicated/sundered from Toril so both the estelar (super cool name, by the way) and the primordials would be left in charge somewhere. Dragons, however, would soon become the true masters of Abeir. Thus, to retcon primordials and the Dawn War, one would have to scrap Abeir entirely, which 5e very much didn't.

Now, it is true that SCAG simply lists Akadi, Istishia, Kossuth and Grumbar as gods. But I wouldn't call it irreconcilable with their 4e lore.
The few primordials that remained in Toril when Abeir split away never fought the gods as their fellows did. These primordials are sometimes worshiped as deities despite their elemental origin.

[Naanomi]

Dendar the Night Serpent (and his battles with the Gods) predates 4e Dawn War lore, he (along with Kezef and Ityak-Ortheel) appearing at least as far back as Powers and Pantheons

[hamishspence]

Dendar the Night Serpent (and his battles with the Gods) predates 4e Dawn War lore, he (along with Kezef and Ityak-Ortheel) appearing at least as far back as Powers and Pantheons

True - but it appears that 4E's retcon of Dendar making her a primordial, has been carried over into 5e.

[Naanomi]

True - but it appears that 4E's retcon of Dendar making her a primordial, has been carried over into 5e.

The term ‘Primordial’ has been used in DnD lore to mean all sorts of unrelated ‘very old things’; I don’t take the use of that term to indicate The Dawn War as anything more than Legend... or at best a local event that occurred in Realmspace and not a Cosmology spanning event

[Millstone85]

The term ‘Primordial’ has been used in DnD lore to mean all sorts of unrelated ‘very old things’; I don’t take the use of that term to indicate The Dawn War as anything more than Legend... or at best a local event that occurred in Realmspace and not a Cosmology spanning eventFor that matter, the term "Estelar" was FR-specific even in 4e.

[Naanomi]

For that matter, the term "Estelar" was FR-specific even in 4e.
Even if the Dawn War did happen, the specifics have to be much different than 4e presented... we have established history before the Gods existed in 5e, we don’t see evidence of Ao having any influence out of Realmspace, we have evidence of the War of Law and Chaos that fills some of the same ‘ancient war that shaped the cosmos’ idea space... and of course the Cosmology (particularly with the Inner Planes, the Abyss, and the inhabitants of both... and the Far Realm) is much more fitting with 1e/2e Great Wheel material than anything in 4e

[JackPhoenix]

Even if the Dawn War did happen, the specifics have to be much different than 4e presented... we have established history before the Gods existed in 5e, we don’t see evidence of Ao having any influence out of Realmspace, we have evidence of the War of Law and Chaos that fills some of the same ‘ancient war that shaped the cosmos’ idea space... and of course the Cosmology (particularly with the Inner Planes, the Abyss, and the inhabitants of both... and the Far Realm) is much more fitting with 1e/2e Great Wheel material than anything in 4e

In other worlds, FR lore is a mess due to retcons happening everytime a new edition rolls out. What's new?

[Naanomi]

In other worlds, FR lore is a mess due to retcons happening everytime a new edition rolls out. What's new?
I don’t mind FR lore being a mess; Crystal Spheres can be pretty divergent from the larger setting; and FR more than most because of AO being so active compared to other Over-Powers... it is when they start mangling the larger Great Wheel that I personally struggle more

[Millstone85]

I don’t mind FR lore being a mess; Crystal Spheres can be pretty divergent from the larger setting; and FR more than most because of AO being so active compared to other Over-Powers... it is when they start mangling the larger Great Wheel that I personally struggle moreI think the FR version of the Dawn War is pretty harmless to the Great Wheel.

The FRCG starts describing it with a paragraph that I would keep unchanged for 5e.
In the beginning existed a misty realm of timeless nothingness, crafted by Ao the Hidden One from the raw elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston. Within this dim sphere, several worlds drifted upon the Sea of Night. Though the worlds were lifeless and barren at this time, powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might coveted them. The name of their kind has been lost to the ages; the few sages who today know of their existence refer to them simply as the primordials.

The next paragraph is bothersome, but easily fixed.
Unknown to the primordials, detritus remaining from its creation coalesced around the universe within Realmspace as an ocean of silvery liquid. From this glittering realm of starlight formed beautiful twin beings, polar opposites of each other, one dark and one light. The twin goddesses birthed of the Astral Sea Sea of Night quickly moved to defend the virgin worlds from the destructive primordials. Other gods were created from the residue of the deific battles or summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight against the primordials and their monstrous servants.

Then the conflict goes on over the ages, involving the creator races and such, until Ao finally steps in.
Yet before the world was torn completely asunder, the Hidden One intervened. Lord Ao created a twin of the planet, granting the primordials dominion over the new world of Abeir and the gods control over the original world of Toril.

Things like the Abyss becoming part of the Elemental Chaos happen way later, with little to no connection to the Dawn War.

[Xihirli]

Doesn’t Ao the Hidden One creating the timeless nothingness contradict Elder Evil and Aboleth lore, where there were planets and oceans before any gods existed?

[Millstone85]

Doesn’t Ao the Hidden One creating the timeless nothingness contradict Elder Evil and Aboleth lore, where there were planets and oceans before any gods existed?Not at all, because Realmspace wasn't the first crystal sphere.

[Naanomi]

Not at all, because Realmspace wasn't the first crystal sphere.
Yeah, the Aboleth dominated the Prime Material for ages before there were any Gods (as we know them, there were a few things sometimes labeled ‘Gods’ in the earliest days of the cosmos; but not as we would define the term now) and for the most part well before any of the main-setting Crystal Spheres appeared (excepting perhaps Mystara).

It wasn’t until well into the War of Law and Chaos (when battles spilled into the Prime) that Gods really started making an appearance; and around the same time a few older beings in the cosmos ‘became’ Gods where they were just other ancient things before