What's the Largest Non-magical Object Wortg 25,000gp or Less?

[unseenmage]

With a single Wish what is the largest single non-magic thing that can be bought for 25,000gp?


EDIT:
Fast time demiplane has been okay-ed at 1 round = 1 day.
Shapechange into Zodar for a new Wish every round has been okayed.
Wishes can only make non-magical material or non-permanent items but a wished for scroll can make Simulacrums.
edit No wishing for permanent magic items.
No Simulacrums or similar of Intelligent Magic Items.


The Big Idea
So with all of the above a single Sim of a spellcaster could stand and Shapechange -> Zodar -> Wish -> Scroll of Sim of spellcaster forever.
Second Sim of spellcaster starts and grows a fast time Genesis demiplane to house all these Sims of spellcasters.
Third Sim of spellcaster starts making Sims of spellcasters whose job it is to link everyone via telepathy.
Fourth starts a Gate corps who can open similtaneous gates around any offending enemy.
Fifth starts the corps of Sims of spellcasters whose job it is to drop absolute craptins of whatever material this thread seems most effective on enemies through the previous corps' Gates (if that's even possible).

If possible I'd like to drop Faerzness generating material and those antimagic subterranean trees on the enemy first entombing them in a mundane antimagic prison of Underdark shenaniganery.

It's not a great plan and I'm sure it's a waste of super high OP potential but I like the mental imagery of the sky tearing open at my character's mental command to rain sheer mass on my enemies.

[Crake]

Nothing... Literally.

25,000gp worth of nothing is infinite in size.

[Oberron]

With a single Wish what is the largest single non-magic thing that can be bought for 25,000gp?

i'd have to guess something with a poor description or no description and weights "-" like chalk. 1 cp/"piece" which has no description on the SRD what it is or how big a "piece" is. That's 2,500,000 "pieces" of chalk worth with a wish spell. But with no description it could even be argued that you can have a single piece of chalk be of any size and still weigh "-" and 1cp. Wait.... take a piece of chalk, break in half, you now have two pieces of chalk... whelp there goes the economy.

[noob]

i'd have to guess something with a poor description or no description and weights "-" like chalk. 1 cp/"piece" which has no description on the SRD what it is or how big a "piece" is. That's 2,500,000 "pieces" of chalk worth with a wish spell. But with no description it could even be argued that you can have a single piece of chalk be of any size and still weigh "-" and 1cp. Wait.... take a piece of chalk, break in half, you now have two pieces of chalk... whelp there goes the economy.

I knew I was forgetting to put an item on my character sheet.
1cp and no weight for the power to write and mark stuff thus allowing to escape a bunch of mazes and a whole other slew of possible shenanigans.

[Bronk]

With a single Wish what is the largest single non-magic thing that can be bought for 25,000gp?

I think a 100 foot long warship (SRD) would be a good place to start.

[MisterKaws]

i'd have to guess something with a poor description or no description and weights "-" like chalk. 1 cp/"piece" which has no description on the SRD what it is or how big a "piece" is. That's 2,500,000 "pieces" of chalk worth with a wish spell. But with no description it could even be argued that you can have a single piece of chalk be of any size and still weigh "-" and 1cp. Wait.... take a piece of chalk, break in half, you now have two pieces of chalk... whelp there goes the economy.

There's a better trick with ladders: you can buy ladders, disassemble them, and sell them as wood poles. Ladders are cheaper than the total amount of wood poles you'd expect to use building them, so you can break the wood pole market and become rich by doing that.

[noob]

There's a better trick with ladders: you can buy ladders, disassemble them, and sell them as wood poles. Ladders are cheaper than the total amount of wood poles you'd expect to use building them, so you can break the wood pole market and become rich by doing that.

It would work if people accepted wooden poles with holes in them at the same cost as regular wooden poles.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

With a single Wish what is the largest single non-magic thing that can be bought for 25,000gp?

From the Stronghold Builder's Guide, a 1000 section, freestanding wall of masonry. At 10,000 feet (or 3.048km) long, your nonmagical wall will be almost 1/7000th the size of the Great Wall of China.
Hmmm... if you're optimizing just for maximum size for your cost, you might want to go with the packed earth; that will be 25 times larger for the same cost.

[unseenmage]

From the Stronghold Builder's Guide, a 1000 section, freestanding wall of masonry. At 10,000 feet (or 3.048km) long, your nonmagical wall will be almost 1/7000th the size of the Great Wall of China.
Hmmm... if you're optimizing just for maximum size for your cost, you might want to go with the packed earth; that will be 25 times larger for the same cost.

I remember there being rules for damaging structures that limits the damage to 10 foot sections... Here's hoping the wording doesn't limit how large an area of structure can be affected by a single spell.too.

[MisterKaws]

It would work if people accepted wooden poles with holes in them at the same cost as regular wooden poles.

If you cut the sections with holes and sell all of them as one-foot poles you're still profiting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wish for a spellbook filled with 25,000 gp's worth of wall of salt spells. The book itself is small (and apparently nonmagical), but each spell on it can expand into a 35 square foot wall that is 7" thick.

And each one is worth its literal weight in literal silver, and since it's a trade good, you can use it directly as money!

...Wait, what were we talking about, again?

[MisterKaws]

Wish for a spellbook filled with 25,000 gp's worth of wall of salt spells. The book itself is small (and apparently nonmagical), but each spell on it can expand into a 35 square foot wall that is 7" thick.

And each one is worth its literal weight in literal silver, and since it's a trade good, you can use it directly as money!

...Wait, what were we talking about, again?

You forgot the blue text.

Huh, what was that? Just my imagination.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You forgot the blue text.

Huh, what was that? Just my imagination.I did what, now?

[Crake]

Wish for a spellbook filled with 25,000 gp's worth of wall of salt spells. The book itself is small (and apparently nonmagical), but each spell on it can expand into a 35 square foot wall that is 7" thick.

And each one is worth its literal weight in literal silver, and since it's a trade good, you can use it directly as money!

...Wait, what were we talking about, again?

I understand that this is meant to be a joke, but why are you talking like you can cast spells out of a spellbook like they're scrolls?

[MisterKaws]

I understand that this is meant to be a joke, but why are you talking like you can cast spells out of a spellbook like they're scrolls?

Well, Spellhoarding Dragons can, for one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I understand that this is meant to be a joke, but why are you talking like you can cast spells out of a spellbook like they're scrolls?Alacritous Cogitation? Amulet of spell conversion? Uncanny Forethought? Versatile Spellcaster?

All of them allow you to spontaneously cast from your spellbook. All ONE spell in it.

[Torpin]

a club of infinite size cost 0g

[MaxiDuRaritry]

a club of infinite size cost 0gSo 25,000 / 0 = infiniclub error?

[MesiDoomstalker]

So 25,000 / 0 = infiniclub error?

Little known fact; the Verbal component for gate is "Divide by zero".

[Crake]

Alacritous Cogitation? Amulet of spell conversion? Uncanny Forethought? Versatile Spellcaster?

All of them allow you to spontaneously cast from your spellbook. All ONE spell in it.

Right, the way you wrote it made it sound like you were talking about a spell book filled with multiple copies of the spell, not just one, and then expending the copies to cast many copies of wall of salt.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Right, the way you wrote it made it sound like you were talking about a spell book filled with multiple copies of the spell, not just one, and then expending the copies to cast many copies of wall of salt.That's the joke.*




*Yeah, I don't believe it either.

[Elysiume]

Are you looking for an actual printed item or can I just say an infinitely large quarterstaff (or any other item with no price)?

[unseenmage]

Are you looking for an actual printed item or can I just say an infinitely large quarterstaff (or any other item with no price)?

Printed would be best. Extrapolated but RAW could work too

[MisterKaws]

Pebbles are price - as well, so you can technically bend down and pick up any random planet-sized pebble.

[mabriss lethe]

A whole lot of Grell Crystal? For 25k, that's a sheet 62500 sq.ft. (250 ft. on a side) at one inch thick. Though you'll probably want to invest in a decanter of endless water.

[unseenmage]

A whole lot of Grell Crystal? For 25k, that's a sheet 62500 sq.ft. (250 ft. on a side) at one inch thick. Though you'll probably want to invest in a decanter of endless water.

What the crap is Grell Crystal?

[tyckspoon]

With a single Wish what is the largest single non-magic thing that can be bought for 25,000gp?

You may need to define what aspect of 'largest' you're looking for here, because the answer may change depending on what you want to optimize. If you just want volume of the object, for example, I would bet the answer is 25,000 GP worth of some material fashioned into a hollow sphere - the thinner you can work the material before it collapses the better, so looking to adamantium, obdurium, riverine, aurorum, and the like. Not a physical property the game spends much time on, tho, so I doubt there's any practical way to determine just how big a sphere you could make out of any given material. (Riverine is probably the answer, considering it's made mostly of force and so is functionally infinitely strong and could theoretically be stretched almost infinitely thinly, but that's questionably 'non-magical' for purposes of Wishing. Would be an explanation for Spelljammer's Crystal Spheres, tho.. 'I wish for the largest possible sphere of Riverine' resulting in a universe-sized wall of impossibly thin force surrounding the plane >.> )

If you want the heaviest object you can get for that value, it's probably a different answer, and I would guess Hulking Hurler optimization threads probably have the answer.

[Thurbane]

25,000gp = 250,000 lbs of iron, if that helps...

[unseenmage]

You may need to define what aspect of 'largest' you're looking for here, because the answer may change depending on what you want to optimize. If you just want volume of the object, for example, I would bet the answer is 25,000 GP worth of some material fashioned into a hollow sphere - the thinner you can work the material before it collapses the better, so looking to adamantium, obdurium, riverine, aurorum, and the like. Not a physical property the game spends much time on, tho, so I doubt there's any practical way to determine just how big a sphere you could make out of any given material. (Riverine is probably the answer, considering it's made mostly of force and so is functionally infinitely strong and could theoretically be stretched almost infinitely thinly, but that's questionably 'non-magical' for purposes of Wishing. Would be an explanation for Spelljammer's Crystal Spheres, tho.. 'I wish for the largest possible sphere of Riverine' resulting in a universe-sized wall of impossibly thin force surrounding the plane >.> )

If you want the heaviest object you can get for that value, it's probably a different answer, and I would guess Hulking Hurler optimization threads probably have the answer.
It's for planet building.
Am looking to Wish up as much material as possible at one time.

[MisterKaws]

It's for planet building.
Am looking to Wish up as much material as possible at one time.

Back to optimizing planet-sized pebbles, then!

[Bronk]

It's for planet building.
Am looking to Wish up as much material as possible at one time.

There was another thread for that just a little while ago then...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589819-I-wish-for-a-rock

[MisterKaws]

There was another thread for that just a little while ago then...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589819-I-wish-for-a-rock

There was another one, too. I've also been following that, even recycling the jokes.

[AvatarVecna]

If you want the heaviest object you can get for that value, it's probably a different answer, and I would guess Hulking Hurler optimization threads probably have the answer.

HH threads tend to go looking for density rather than mass, and tend to not be worried about the cost as much - the goal is to reach your CC throwing limit in as small an area as possible so it's at least theoretically possible to carry your "whatever it is" around (usually a big metal sphere). Unfortunately for a lot of materials, density doesn't come up much - what special materials do make mention of how they change the weight of items they make up don't make mention of how they change the composition (ie how much mithral does it take to make mithral chainmail instead of the doubly-heavy steel chainmail?), which makes it hard to measure. However, if what we're looking for is the highest weight for our money rather than volume, what we wanna do here is find something relatively heavy that is inexplicably worthless. Since people have already pointed out the "just wish for an infinite number of {thing that costs literally nothing but has any weight whatsoever}", let's just take a stroll through the SRD and look for some possible contenders.

I found a few good contenders, like Large Sling Bullets, but even that paled in comparison to the "why is this cheap bull**** so heavy" champion: firewood. A day's worth of firewood weighs 20 lbs and costs just 1cp. That's 2000 lbs/gp. Wishing for "all the firewood a safe wish can give me" would give me 50 million pounds of firewood. I don't know how much a 25000 gp 100 ft long Warship weighs on the SRD, but a quick google indicates the standard displacement of an 800+ ft Iowa-class Battleship is about 100 million lbs of water (eight times the length of the ship we can get on the SRD, and only twice as much weight as our giant pile of firewood, so it's probably safe to say that the SRD's warship has a worse lb/gp ratio than firewood).

[unseenmage]

Seems that I'm looking for a bit more narrow a solution than that thread provides.

[AvatarVecna]

Of course if you're wanting to wish up a planet by making a giant pile of firewood, you're probably going to be wishing for quite some time: Pluto is too small to be considered a planet anymore, but it still weighs equivalent to 28 sextillion lbs, meaning you'd need to make about 600 trillion wishes to get enough firewood to match that size, and doing so at a rate of one wish per round would take 100 million years. 100 million years of nonstop wishing to make Pluto.


Seems that I'm looking for a bit more narrow a solution than that thread provides.

Sorry bud, I dunno what to tell you. Who knew you couldn't buy a planet worth of material for the same price as a medieval warship?

[AvatarVecna]

If you use Circle Magic followed by a Persisted "Greater Consumptive Field", you'd be looking at CL 60 going forward. Then let's combine Circle Magic with metamagic reduction to get a Widened Twinned Repeated "Wall Of Iron" spell that is 14 levels higher, using Earth Spell and Arcane Thesis (Wall Of Iron) to get an extra +16 CL for a total of CL 76. Let's assume you can cast that spell twice per round (quicken+normal) all day without anything in this process breaking down somehow. Each wall would normally have a volume of 5198400 cubic inches, but this is Widened so double that per wall. We get four walls per casting, therefore each casting gives 41587200 cubic inches of iron. At 2 castings/round for 24 hours, 1197711360000 cubic inches of iron per day. That much iron would weigh 340150026240 lbs, or approximately 1/100 billionth of the mass of Pluto.

...and despite the giant pile of bull**** pushed into this casting, it's still slower than the firewood method: this build casts 2/round instead of the 1/round the firewood wish number assumed, and it still would take 273 million years, or nearly three times as long as wish-firewood method.

[unseenmage]

If you use Circle Magic followed by a Persisted "Greater Consumptive Field", you'd be looking at CL 60 going forward. Then let's combine Circle Magic with metamagic reduction to get a Widened Twinned Repeated "Wall Of Iron" spell that is 14 levels higher, using Earth Spell and Arcane Thesis (Wall Of Iron) to get an extra +16 CL for a total of CL 76. Let's assume you can cast that spell twice per round (quicken+normal) all day without anything in this process breaking down somehow. Each wall would normally have a volume of 5198400 cubic inches, but this is Widened so double that per wall. We get four walls per casting, therefore each casting gives 41587200 cubic inches of iron. At 2 castings/round for 24 hours, 1197711360000 cubic inches of iron per day. That much iron would weigh 340150026240 lbs, or approximately 1/100 billionth of the mass of Pluto.

...and despite the giant pile of bull**** pushed into this casting, it's still slower than the firewood method: this build casts 2/round instead of the 1/round the firewood wish number assumed, and it still would take 273 million years, or nearly three times as long as wish-firewood method.
This is actually incredibly useful. Thank you.

I have new info from the GM am adding it to the OP now.

[mabriss lethe]

What the crap is Grell Crystal?

an alchemical substance from Lords of Madness. It's kind of lovecraftian quick dry cement. a bag of it + five gallons of water produces a sheet of stone-like hardness 25 sq feet and 1 inch thick in like an hour.

[AvatarVecna]

Maybe getting into exponential mass production will speed things up. A resetting Wish trap of "I wish a Decanter Of Endless Water set to geyser would come into existence nearby" would do pretty well...or any method of getting a wish per round, I guess? Each wished-up Decanter would generate 250.2 lbs of water per round, with each round having more decanters helping out. Of course, that means in X rounds you generate 125.1(X+X2) lbs of water. Normally that kinda formula would be weird to figure out, but because we're working with such large weight numbers for planets, it can be simplified a bit and we just acknowledge there's a slight room for error: the number of rounds it takes to generate {planet's mass} is equal to "{planet's mass/125.1}^.5". So for a pluto-sized planet, this takes approximately...3000 years. Hmm.

...you know what, since you have Zodar SLA wishes, and you're not using them to just Wish for a spell-duplicating item with enough arbitrary CL to create all the mass you need, let's say that instead of wishing for a decanter every round, you're wishing for the above resetting-spell-trap per round. That should speed things up significantly...okay so now the formula is 62.55*(X4+2X3+X2)=Y, where X is rounds and Y is weight. Once again, this boils down to approximately "divide the target weight by 62.55 and put that to the 1/4 power to find the rounds", so a pluto-sized planet would take approximately...just over ten days of endless "I wish for a resetting trap of wish, which itself wishes every round for a decanter of endless water set to geyser to appear nearby". That gets you a pluto-sized "planet".

EDIT: We are not responsible for how you turn off all those decanters, although if you feel you can squeeze the extra words into each wish, you could try "I wish that a resetting Wish trap would appear nearby and would, for the next {specify time period} cast a Wish every round to wish for a Decanter Of Endless Water to appear nearby that would, itself, be in geyser mode for {specify time period}, at which point it would turn off entirely".

Here's approximately how fast this method accomplishes a "planet" of equal mass to various real-world celestial bodies, in various time measurements:



Body
Hours
Days
Months
Years


Pluto
244
10
0.34
0.028


Moon
375
15
0.52
0.043


Mercury
546
22
0.76
0.062


Mars
645
26
0.90
0.074


Venus
1072
44
1.49
0.122


Earth
1128
47
1.57
0.129


Uranus
2204
91
3.06
0.252


Neptune
2297
95
3.19
0.262


Saturn
3527
146
4.90
0.403


Jupiter
4766
198
6.62
0.544


Sun
27119
1129
37.66
3.096

[unseenmage]

Sorry, seems I forgot to add the one thing I meant to add to the OP. No wishing for permanent magic items.

My apologies.

[Telonius]

I'm not so certain that iron is the way to go here. It's a pretty dense material, so if you're trying to optimize for size (meaning, volume) you'd do better with wheat. 1 pound of wheat is worth 1cp, so 1 gp worth of wheat is 100 pounds. One Wish would get you a 2,500,000-pound pile of wheat. Apparently grain wheat is 49.32 pounds per (ft^3), which means it would take up about 50689 (ft^3). 125 (ft^3) per 5-foot cube, so that's about 405 squares worth of of wheat.

[noob]

Sorry, seems I forgot to add the one thing I meant to add to the OP. No wishing for permanent magic items.

My apologies.

my wish used only single use magical items that did use themselves instantly and created an infinite amount of non magical mass.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not so certain that iron is the way to go here. It's a pretty dense material, so if you're trying to optimize for size (meaning, volume) you'd do better with wheat. 1 pound of wheat is worth 1cp, so 1 gp worth of wheat is 100 pounds. One Wish would get you a 2,500,000-pound pile of wheat. Apparently grain wheat is 49.32 pounds per (ft^3), which means it would take up about 50689 (ft^3). 125 (ft^3) per 5-foot cube, so that's about 405 squares worth of of wheat.

Firewood was the best I found for weight-to-cost ratio, at 2000 lbs/gp, or 50 million lbs for our 25k gp budget. Neither the Player's Handbook nor the SRD specifies what kind of wood is used for firewood (they also don't specify how a fire generates light/heat, which isn't helpful either), but the densest wood I can find is Ebony (which is up to 83 lb/ft3). Assuming our 25000 gp worth of firewood is the heaviest ebony for some reason, 50 million lbs becomes 602409 cubic feet, or 4819 squares worth. If that firewood is a lighter wood, it'll be less dense, and thus that mass will be spread across an even larger volume.

Admittedly I'm also not sure whether mass or volume is what OP is looking for since they still haven't clarified.

[Thurbane]

A planet made of wood you say? (https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/wooden-world-vincent-wards-alien-iii/)