Help with character selection

[RodopianYeti]

Hi guys, I am joining an existing campaign as a player for first time since 2015. The campaign is lead by a player from my group who decided to try dm-ing and I encouraged her and helped her from distance since I am abroad. The party consists of a book lock, a life cleric with a fighter dip, a vengeance pala, a sun monk and a battlemaster. From my dm I know that they are good at slashing but do not fight as a group, so she asked me to help with that. I am leaning towards lore bard or divination wizard pc that do not blast but mostly provides battlefield control, buffs, debuffs and out of combat help. I rolled quite high 17, 18 and others 10-12. What would you suggest will inspire a group not used to rp to start thinking about tactics and rp. What feats, spells etc would you chose.
Will appreciate any help, cuz I tried to make my friend dm talk with the group about the issue, suggested her to punish players for mistakes but she is softy and innocent so I have to make an example. I am starting level 4 or 5, PHB, XGE and feats allowed.
Thanks in advance!

[TyGuy]

You sound pretty set to me. Just remember to share your portent if you decide on wiz.

[TyGuy]

Oh, and if the life cleric actually heals then that tips the scales towards a utility wizard IMHO.

[RodopianYeti]

You sound pretty set to me. Just remember to share your portent if you decide on wiz.

Hahha Yes I am almost set just need reassurance, maybe some advice more on the rp part than the mechanical- I have been dm-ing for half a year actively creating monsters with some control spells to disrupt my players but as a player with mostly hack and slash guys I am afraid that I may turn out too pushy, giving orders what to do. That is why I dropped the idea for Battlemaster/mastermind archer dissarming guys and giving commands aka help action. I want to look like they are doing the stuff and force them to act. For what I know the paladin is bores when not rolling dices... I try to explain that the game is a role playing and not a roll playing but now from the other side will have to "lead by example"

[zinycor]

Both class options are solid and I have personally played both as a support to a great success. The main problem to solve is that most buff and control spells require concentration.

Some support spells that don't require concentration are:

Chill touch
Vicious mockery
Guidance
Guiding bolt
Blindness/deafness
Counterspell
Dispel magic

Also ritual spells have tons of utility and spend no resources

[Mercurias]

I would honestly play an Arcane Trickster Rogue. The party has most things covered other than a skill monkey for traps and someone to read magic stuff. If they aren’t working as a unit, incorporating someone who needs tactical assistance for sexy backstab damage might help them get into a teamwork mindset.

I honestly LIKE that your DM isn’t punishing players for playing how they like. Hopefully you all sit down and talk things out some everyone is having fun.

[zinycor]

Yeah, I don't get the punishing players part either.

[RodopianYeti]

I would honestly play an Arcane Trickster Rogue. The party has most things covered other than a skill monkey for traps and someone to read magic stuff. If they aren’t working as a unit, incorporating someone who needs tactical assistance for sexy backstab damage might help them get into a teamwork mindset.



That is why I was thinking of the Lore bard with spy background - party face, magic user and a trap dismantler. Also good skill monkey as being half elf. The other one was variant human wizard as I dont like high elves nor gnomes.
And the rogue is out of the list as being good at dmg dealing, I kinda want to stay away of direct damage, cuz they will see me as extra dpr only.

[RodopianYeti]

Yeah, I don't get the punishing players part either.

Punish as when they screw up in combat decisions she just remove half of the hp of the monsters and that kind of stuff. I am not sure as how much of this is due to dm not being able to build proper encounter or them being just roll attack-roll dmg repeat. As she explained everybody got scattered doing his own thing and she had to not act realistically - isolate and kill 1 by one. Whic I would totaly do (maybe not a tpk but I would let my players see that the bad guys are uaing tactics and geoup on them as a u it and if thwy do not help each other they will follow the unconcious warlock)

[zinycor]

Punish as when they screw up in combat decisions she just remove half of the hp of the monsters and that kind of stuff. I am not sure as how much of this is due to dm not being able to build proper encounter or them being just roll attack-roll dmg repeat. As she explained everybody got scattered doing his own thing and she had to not act realistically - isolate and kill 1 by one. Whic I would totaly do (maybe not a tpk but I would let my players see that the bad guys are uaing tactics and geoup on them as a u it and if thwy do not help each other they will follow the unconcious warlock)

Oh, yeah that seems like too much.

[RodopianYeti]

So any suggestion on the playstyle, or rp activities I should try to perform or other ideas about classes- like druid and what type or multiclass and what feats to chose?

[zinycor]

So any suggestion on the playstyle, or rp activities I should try to perform or other ideas about classes- like druid and what type or multiclass and what feats to chose?

As for rp, I normally play my support characters as very professional people, the sort of guy/gal Who is there doing their job. I believe it would also be good for you, since there are some tactics problems at the group.

Another thing I like to do as support characters is being kind of lazy, and letting my teammates do all the work xD. However this might not be the most helpful advice.

As for feats, I would take ritual caster and magic initiate. More spells equals more options.

[Guy Lombard-O]

So any suggestion on the playstyle, or rp activities I should try to perform or other ideas about classes- like druid and what type or multiclass and what feats to chose?

Actually, since you're worried about being bossy, I'd suggest going with more of a clown. Do the spy/lore bard, and make great use of things like cutting words, vicious mockery, and Tasha's laughter to regularly insult/debuff the enemies with flair and effect. By acting more like a clown, but leading more by example of demonstrating the power of support instead of directly ordering and potentially bossing the dimwits other players around, you can hopefully show rather than tell the efficacy of this play style for them. Also, I've found that handing out a few inspirations to other players can really make them appreciate the fact that you're there.

I'd also maybe gently joke/prod the cleric about whether their god ever bestows benefits upon the cleric and his flock, possibly even mentioning Bless or Aid by name.

For a feat, you could pick up Inspiring Leader (entertain them before battle by mocking and belittling yesterday's defeated foes, or today's expected bad guys). Great feat, support focused.

[TyGuy]

So any suggestion on the playstyle, or rp activities I should try to perform or other ideas about classes- like druid and what type or multiclass and what feats to chose?

I think you've got it with lore bard and diviner.

Maybe as a bard play it happy-go-lucky traveler who's laid back and along for the ride. A catch phrase would be "let me help you with that". Bards also have the best one-liner potential so make sure you have some witty remarks at the ready for things like cutting words and vicious mockery.

As the diviner I can see a meta PC that roleplays the meta as being a knowledgeable tactician. Catch phrase would be something like "we really need ___" before ritual casting alarm or tiny hut, or shutting down enemies with control spells. A little uptight, but not to the point that the other players hate your PC.

[Man_Over_Game]

Rather than Lore Bard, I'd recommend Glamour. Not only does Glamour have more support for social interactions, but their use of Bardic Inspiration works great with a melee heavy team in order to have them maneuver into positions together. Or you can have your allies scatter before you cast Sleep, or something along those lines. Lore Bard is very...basic. Something attacks someone, you spend a Reaction to make that attack go away. There's not really a lot of strategy involved with it, only effectiveness.

Portent does well for scouting for your team, just keep in mind that your team might not be able to utilize a lot of your information. If you see that there are 6 orcs around the corner, how can your Paladin/Fighter/Cleric use that information for the better?

[RodopianYeti]

Those are some nice advice- I have alist with good insults collected from some reddit posts and those forums as well as some of my own and I think I could change them on the spot to be more appropriate. The idea of a joker is quite good for that kind of job- play the fool and nobody will suspect you for gathering information- big fan of Robin Hob's books. Any suggestions for good magical secrets? Before I used paladins aura and animate daggers for some kind of a blade master bard but I would pick stuff as counterspell is a staple, maybe some wall effect? And what spells to hunt for with ritual caster/ magic initiate?

[zinycor]

Portent does well for scouting for your team, just keep in mind that your team might not be able to utilize a lot of your information. If you see that there are 6 orcs around the corner, how can your Paladin/Fighter/Cleric use that information for the better?

What? What are you talking about?

[Man_Over_Game]

What? What are you talking about?

Sorry, I meant Diviner, not Portent.

Diviner's big schtick is that it provides your team with an abundance of information. But the thing is, the party are mostly a bunch of guys with a hammer. It doesn't matter how much information you give them, they'll still be limited to using the hammer, like a hammer.

Surprised? Hit 'em with a hammer!
Sneaking? Hit 'em with a hammer!
Flying? Throw a hammer at 'em!


There's a difference between "Helping the team" and "Helping the team act strategically", and I think Portent and Cutting Words fall more into the first category, although the OP mentioned he's looking more for the second.

[zinycor]

For magical secrets I would grab haste, guiding bolt or Counterspell

For magic initiate I would probably pick bless.

As far as rituals go, I would make sure to pick find familiar

[Goggalor]

Since you are looking to be the "fifth" (technically sixth, but you get the idea) man of the group, I would vote Lore Bard, but go a slightly different route with Halfling and pick up the Lucky feat later on down the road. You could call the character either Danger Dan or Lucky Lucio or something similar to denote all of the rerolls/extra rolls (Lucky feat, Halfling lucky feature, Cutting Words/Bardic Inspiration) the character would be able to allow through an adventuring day. The character practically writes itself once you get rolling!

[RodopianYeti]

Halflings are sweet, haven't considered them before. They can also hide behind others so rhis is also fitting for the kind of character I wanna build. We have a cleeic and a pala for the bless, and I know that the cleric is using it quite a lot. He was complaining that he can not heal fast enough (he is with the mindset from video games where u spam heal to keep the guys always full) and so he picked up some fighter levels to have what to do when he is out of cure wounds.

[Man_Over_Game]

Halflings are sweet, haven't considered them before. They can also hide behind others so rhis is also fitting for the kind of character I wanna build. We have a cleeic and a pala for the bless, and I know that the cleric is using it quite a lot. He was complaining that he can not heal fast enough (he is with the mindset from video games where u spam heal to keep the guys always full) and so he picked up some fighter levels to have what to do when he is out of cure wounds.

Darn, should have him pick up Warding Bond + Heavy Armor Master and stick with Life Cleric.

Combined, a single Healing Word goes from healing one ally for like 5 HP, to healing himself and an ally for a total of 11 HP, all as a Bonus Action at Range.

[RodopianYeti]

Darn, should have him pick up Warding Bond + Heavy Armor Master and stick with Life Cleric.

Combined, a single Healing Word goes from healing one ally for like 5 HP, to healing himself and an ally for a total of 11 HP, all as a Bonus Action at Range.

How does that work? I thought that only dmg is transfered? Is healing a negative dmg or I am missing smthing?

[TyGuy]

Lore Bard is very...basic. Something attacks someone, you spend a Reaction to make that attack go away. There's not really a lot of strategy involved with it, only effectiveness.
That extra magic secrets at level 6 tho!


Since you are looking to be the "fifth" (technically sixth, but you get the idea) man of the group, I would vote Lore Bard, but go a slightly different route with Halfling and pick up the Lucky feat later on down the road.
Too bad luck points can't be shared with other PC's, that would have been so good for OP's goal. But, you can at least take Bountiful Luck and help remove your teammate's nat 1s.

[Man_Over_Game]

How does that work? I thought that only dmg is transfered? Is healing a negative dmg or I am missing smthing?

The damage is transferred, yes, but the Life Cleric gets a feature that allows him to heal himself every time he heals an ally.

Take this scenario of an enemy that deals 10 damage to your Fighter.

Scenario 1 (default):
Fighter takes 10 damage twice, for 20 damage.
Cleric uses Cure Wounds. Heals 1d12+3 HP, plus another 3 from your level 1 feature. Total healed: 12.5
Total damage prevented: 12.5

Scenario 2 (My example)
Fighter takes 10 damage twice, for 20 damage.
You take half of that damage as two separate hits. 10 each. Each hit is reduced by 3 damage from Heavy Armor Master.
Fighter has taken 10 damage, while you've taken 4.
Cleric uses Healing Word. Heals 1d4+3 HP, plus another 3 on the target, plus another 3 to yourself from your level 6 feature. Total healed: 14.5
Healing Word requires a Bonus Action. The Cleric now casts a cantrip or makes a melee attack. It's also a ranged spell, so the Cleric can be in an opportune position.
Total damage prevented: 20.5


That level 6 feature often goes to waste, because Life Clerics don't always want to be on the front lines. Warding Bond ensures that the Life Cleric will always be taking damage on behalf of his ally, which means that his level 6 feature is always relevant, and Heavy Armor Master just happens to synergize stupidly well with Warding Bond.

[RodopianYeti]

Yeah, that 6th lvl stuff... Always forget it. And as a DM I wouldn't allow to reduce dmg caused by a magical connection between your bodies with your armor feat, but by RAW you can. Will suggest it on the table, maybe using a 2nd level spell slot :D

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Both class options are solid and I have personally played both as a support to a great success. The main problem to solve is that most buff and control spells require concentration.

Some support spells that don't require concentration are:

Chill touch
Vicious mockery
Guidance
Guiding bolt
Blindness/deafness
Counterspell
Dispel magic

Also ritual spells have tons of utility and spend no resources

Don't forget Grease, one of the best spells in the game for BFC and support.

[zinycor]

Don't forget Grease, one of the best spells in the game for BFC and support.

Yeah! can't believe I forgot Grease!! the wizard at the game I run uses it constantly!

[RodopianYeti]

Don't forget Grease, one of the best spells in the game for BFC and support.

It is one of my favourite spells too, but not sure if it worth a magical secret slot? If I pick it with magic initiate, can I cast it with bard spell slots?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It is one of my favourite spells too, but not sure if it worth a magical secret slot? If I pick it with magic initiate, can I cast it with bard spell slots?

I think it is a "Ask the DM" question as it is not clear from the text

In my table it would work.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, that 6th lvl stuff... Always forget it. And as a DM I wouldn't allow to reduce dmg caused by a magical connection between your bodies with your armor feat, but by RAW you can. Will suggest it on the table, maybe using a 2nd level spell slot :D

If the damage was intended to not be allowed to be mitigated, it'd be written in, like with how Redemption and Crown Paladins have their auras written. The Lead Designer said the same thing, along the lines of "If it was supposed to ignore resistances, then it'd say so".

Some people are concerned that, since the damage dealt to the Cleric was received from Warding Bond, that it counts as taking spell damage, but the lead designer has explained that Warding Bond isn't to be treated as being a source of damage. You cannot, for instance, use an Ancients Paladin's Aura of Warding to mitigate the damage from Warding Bond:

From the Lead Designer, Jeremy Crawford:

Q: Is warding bond the source of its generated damage instance? If so what damage type is it? Is it still spell damage? thanks

A: When you take damage via warding bond, you're taking damage from whatever caused damage to the target of warding bond. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/805222825183219712)

You can also review some of the other mentions of Warding Bond on Sage Advice: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/04/warding-bond/

Now, these aren't "the law", only just showing what the developers intended for the rules, but they've been very open towards players adjusting the game to fit each table. If a table wants Warding Bond to technically deal spell damage, then just make it a regular houserule.

The developers were very clear that the only way you could really break the game is by:

Allowing characters to cast spells with levels beyond the capacity of a Full-Caster of that level.
Messing around with Bounded Accuracy (Hit Rates/AC).
Dealing excessive damage.
Handing out too many magical items.
Messing around with Concentration.
Messing around with how many actions someone can take.


Don't mess with those, and there's not much you can break.

[TyGuy]

It is one of my favourite spells too, but not sure if it worth a magical secret slot? If I pick it with magic initiate, can I cast it with bard spell slots?

There are some features like racials that are worded as "you can cast x once every y" and others that are "you learn x spell and can cast it every y"

I think in the case of learning a spell from a feature/feat you can use spell slots.

[Man_Over_Game]

There are some features like racials that are worded as "you can cast x once every y" and others that are "you learn x spell and can cast it every y"

I think in the case of learning a spell from a feature/feat you can use spell slots.

The official word on that topic is:

You can only cast spells with spell slots if they came from a class level. You can mingle spell slots between classes, because of the multiclass rules, but you can't mingle it with other sources.

There is one odd exception: If you get a spell from Magic Initiate, and the spell you picked is on the spell list of a class you have levels in, you can spend spell slots to cast that spell. This is a special property of the Magic Initiate feat, not a general rule (so racials don't let you spend spell slots for racial spells).

Not sure why they made it so specific, but they did.

[TyGuy]

The wording of fey teleportation implies that you can cast it with spell slots since there's information on casting it without a spell slot.


You learn the misty step spell and can cast it once without expending a spell slot. You regain the ability to cast it in this way when you finish a short or long rest. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for this spell.

[Man_Over_Game]

The wording of fey teleportation implies that you can cast it with spell slots since there's information on casting it without a spell slot.

That one is really ambiguous, and you make a really good point. The key here is the word "Learn", which the race-specific traits don't usually have.

Although, I think the official word we have on the topic is this (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/31/do-the-spells-known-by-a-class-include-any-racial-spells-they-may-know/):

do the spells known by a class include any racial spells they may know? so bards start off with 2 cantrips, would a tiefling's thaumaturgy count as one of them?

A class's spells are on that class's spell list. Sometimes you'll get a feature that adds spells to that list—features like the bard's Magical Secrets. Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise.

And the only reason you can spend spell slots on spells that don't belong to your class is because the Multiclassing rules say so. The multiclassing rules only apply to...well, multiclassing, so it's not applicable in this scenario. The only way you'd be able to spend spell slots from a racial spell is if the spell was added to a class list, and the RAI implies that this doesn't happen (unless it says so).