Wishing for Leomund's Secret Chest

[Dalebert]

If you Wish for a Leomund's Secret Chest, what happens? You don't need to meet "any" requirements "including costly components". The components listed are an expensive chest and an expensive replica.

1) Does it create the big chest?
2) Does it create the little replica of the chest?
3) If no on 2, Do you now have a big chest that you can summon and dismiss without the need for tiny replica? (my interpretation)
4) If 1, is it a plain chest or the fancy expensive one as described?
5) If yes on 2, is it a fancy expensive replica as described?
EDIT: 6) Do three items it creates stick around after the duration?

[Sparky McDibben]

Just ask the player what they want. With using wish to get something, I'd probably make it permanent.

[Dalebert]

Just ask the player what they want. With using wish to get something, I'd probably make it permanent.

If it helps, this would be in an AL game. Wishing for an 8th or lower spell effect is considered safe. I don't want to count on it to do any more than what it says as I change tables with the character.

[Chronos]

Personally, I'd rule that you still need a thing to be summoned and a thing to use to summon it, or the spell just doesn't work. But using Wish removes the need for those things to be valuable. So you could use a copper piece that you had lying around to summon and dismiss the big cardboard box your refrigerator came in, if you wanted.

[Dalebert]

I just added a question. Do the chest(s) stick around after the duration?


Personally, I'd rule that you still need a thing to be summoned and a thing to use to summon it, or the spell just doesn't work.

Excuse me but... WISH fails because I don't have some bizarre crappy material components that you just arbitrarily added? Okay. *Shrug* Now back to what I can reasonably expect in an AL game.

[JackPhoenix]

There are few spells that don't work if you remove the need for material component if you duplicate them through Wish. SCAG x-Blade cantrips still require you to have a weapon in hand to make the attack, Clone will die immediately if you don't provide the container, and you still need both chests for Leomund's Secret Chest, because the chest isn't just a material component, but the target of the spell, and you need the smaller chest to be able to recall it.

[Zhorn]

I'd say you get the chest and the associated mini-chest as a result of the wish, functioning word-for-word as described by the spell, with after 60 days it starts having the chance to disappear as normal.

It might behave like a magic item, but it it's still a non-magic chest under the effects of a spell. The components cost less than 25,000 gp and the spell's level is less than 8th-level limit of wish. Nothing there leads me to believe the spell would work any differently than described.

If you are trying to make the chest persist beyond the duration of the spell effect, it might be fair to rule that this will induce the stress as described at the end of wish's spell text (because you are creating something, not just duplicating a spell). But if you are just wishing for the chest to persist only for the spell's duration and allow it to vanish once the spell ends, then no stress effect.

[Dalebert]

I guess I can see an argument for the big chest also being a target of the spell since the spell says range is touch. The replica is definitely a material component and thus not needed. However I strongly disagree about the clone container. Wish says the spell completes without ANY of the normal requirements. It should either make them unnecessary or create them for you instantly. In the case of clone, I've always assumed it just created the vessel but I suppose it could also just create a force bubble around the clone.

[LibraryOgre]

I just added a question. Do the chest(s) stick around after the duration?



Excuse me but... WISH fails because I don't have some bizarre crappy material components that you just arbitrarily added? Okay. *Shrug* Now back to what I can reasonably expect in an AL game.

I'd treat it as you having cast the spell, and having the miniature in your possession. It's well within the range of a Wish.

[Kane0]

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.

It seems to me that the spell takes effect as normal, with any necessary components such as the chest and replica being created to enable the spell. What happens afterwards is more murky, i'd personally rule that the chest and replica stay around.

[Dork_Forge]

With anything like this with Wish, I'd rule that Wish creates whatever the material is (in this case the two chests, in contingency the small statue of yourself, in clone the container just appears). In regards to the time limit I'd understand making it permanent but I'd rule they'd just have to cast it again after the 30 days (I think?) to keep the spell active. I don't think just casting a spell with no cost but the slot once a month is a deal breaker or unreasonable.

[Dalebert]

I was just re-reading the spell and the duration is instantaneous. After 60 days, there's an increasing chance of the chest being lost in the ethereal plane. So it would be kind of bizarre for the chest or the replica to ever disappear assuming you either re-cast or stop sending it back after 60 days.

[Chronos]

The ordinary Leomund's Secret Chest spell doesn't create anything: It just gives an existing thing (or rather, pair of things) a magical property. So if Wish is duplicating Leomund's Secret Chest, it wouldn't create anything, either; it also just gives a pair of things a magical property. It just removes the special requirements on those things it's affecting (what makes them components and not just targets).


Excuse me but... WISH fails because I don't have some bizarre crappy material components that you just arbitrarily added? Okay. *Shrug* Now back to what I can reasonably expect in an AL game.
You're saying that you don't have any container at all? Why not? The solution to that one is really easy: Just get some random container. Why would it even matter to you that Wish doesn't provide something that you can so easily obtain by mundane means?

[Dalebert]

So if Wish is duplicating Leomund's Secret Chest, it wouldn't create anything, either; it also just gives a pair of things a magical property.

It doesn't just duplicate it. It's actually a better version; one without any of the reqts of the normal spell, e.g. providing the containers, both of which are listed as material components.


You're saying that you don't have any container at all? Why not?

It's not about me and what I have. It's a RAW question that has several ramifications.

* If I'm naked in a dungeon, can I or can't I obtain a place to store things that I find by wishing up this spell? Based on the wording of Wish, I find the answer of "That's outside the power of Wish." to be a stretch.
* As a side effect of doing this with Wish, do I now own a beautiful and expensive chest? In AL I wouldn't be allowed to ever sell them but it would still be cool fluff.
* One interpretation, reasonable in my opinion, is that I would have a superior version that doesn't even require me to keep a small replica on me. I can just call the chest with a magical phrase. In fact I feel this is the closest to a strict RAW interpretation of "no components required". The fact that it is normally required should not apply to the wished up version.

[Segev]

I'd probably let the wish create the chest and its replica, and let the player keep both. I could see a ruling where it creates both, but they vanish when the spell duration expires (or the larger chest is lost to the Ethereal).

[Chronos]

Again, it's a matter of what spell you're replicating. What does LSC do? It lets you move a container to the ethereal plane. What does Wish mimicking LSC do? It lets you move a container to the ethereal plane.

What you're arguing is like saying that using Wish to replicate Finger of Death creates an enemy for you to kill, because that's one of the requirements for Finger of Death.

[Dalebert]

What you're arguing is like saying that using Wish to replicate Finger of Death creates an enemy for you to kill, because that's one of the requirements for Finger of Death.

Hardly. The target of FoD is not listed as a material component of the spell. FoD would be completely pointless without an enemy target. The chest in LSC is actually listed as a material component. It's not the target of the spell. It's a requirement to cast the spell.

When you cast Simulacrum, the snow is listed as a material component. It's not the target. It's a requirement. If you wish up a simulacrum, you don't have to provide it. The Wish either just makes a simulacrum out of nothing or it provides the snow. Either way, it's just fluff. The result is that you can safely wish for anything that can be provided by an 8th or lower level spell AND you don't have to fulfill the normal reqts of that spell. You just get what you wished for.

Note that Wish doesn't just say you don't need material components. It says you don't have to fulfill any of the requirements of the spell and then just to clarify it says that "includes" costly material components. Note that it also goes on to talk about how you can wish for wealth or items to just appear out of thin air. That's not a safe use if it's not imitating a spell effect, but it's capable of it.

[vexedart]

“The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect.“

A chest has value, this it has cost, costly could vary between people, to someone without a copper piece, a copper piece is costly. The spell would create the items from thin air I’d imagine to fit the needs of the spell to function correctly for the spell to take effect. I’d rule, at my table, a chest is provided, as is the tiny chest. So that it may function as the spell is written.

The way you point it out is that if I make a simulacrum of someone with wish they would be invisible because I don’t need the requirement and the spell just takes effect, no ice or flesh means no visible creature, which seems silly to me.

Instead just have it supply the material components so that the spell may take effect as it is written.

[Chronos]

Hardly. The target of FoD is not listed as a material component of the spell. FoD would be completely pointless without an enemy target. The chest in LSC is actually listed as a material component. It's not the target of the spell. It's a requirement to cast the spell.
But Finger of Death isn't pointless without an enemy target, because it does more than just killing an enemy. It also gives you a free zombie, which is the main benefit of the spell.

Could you just Wish for a free zombie? Probably; the existence of Finger of Death is evidence that it's within the power range allowed for Wish. But you can't do it just by duplicating an existing spell, and so that won't be a safe Wish. To get a free zombie using a safe Wish, you need to have someone available to kill.

Similarly, it's probably within the allowed power of Wish to create a chest out of thin air and hide it in the Ethereal Plane. But you can't do that using an existing spell, because there's no existing spell that does both of those things. So it would be an unsafe Wish. To do it with a safe Wish, you have to provide your own container of some sort.

[JackPhoenix]

* If I'm naked in a dungeon, can I or can't I obtain a place to store things that I find by wishing up this spell? Based on the wording of Wish, I find the answer of "That's outside the power of Wish." to be a stretch.

It's not outside the power of Wish. It is, however, outside Wish's ability to duplicate spell of 8th level or lower, because there's no spell that does something like that (well, you can get chest by duplicating Creation, but no sending it to the ethereal with the same Wish). You *can* do both, but it would be unsafe use of the spell.


* As a side effect of doing this with Wish, do I now own a beautiful and expensive chest? In AL I wouldn't be allowed to ever sell them but it would still be cool fluff.

You would not, at least if you want to replicate LSC. LSC doesn't create the container.


* One interpretation, reasonable in my opinion, is that I would have a superior version that doesn't even require me to keep a small replica on me. I can just call the chest with a magical phrase. In fact I feel this is the closest to a strict RAW interpretation of "no components required". The fact that it is normally required should not apply to the wished up version.

Not really. You duplicate the effect of the spell. One of the effects of the spell is that you can touch the small replica when you want to recall the chest to you. If you don't have the small replica, you can't touch it. And if you don't have chest, you don't have anything to send to (or recall from) ethereal plane in the first place.

[Christian]

Hardly. The target of FoD is not listed as a material component of the spell. FoD would be completely pointless without an enemy target. The chest in LSC is actually listed as a material component. It's not the target of the spell. It's a requirement to cast the spell.

It's both a material component and the target of the spell.

The effect of the spell is to hide a container on the ethereal plane, which you can then recall by touching a miniature replica of it. You need to touch both of those objects when you cast the spell. (Range: Touch is in the listing--the spell is cast on something you're touching.)

In the spell description, there are two expensive material components described, and those components have to be the target of the spell. It's a perfectly reasonable ruling that, when cast using Wish, the expensive material components are not required (as per the Wish spell description), but that doesn't change that you need a target for the spell. I could see a DM ruling that you need an actual chest and a replica of it, as those are the listed spell targets.

All that said, in a home game I was running, I would likely let the Wish create the chest for the spell as part of the casting ...

[LibraryOgre]

So, let's assume you let the following wish work as intended.

"I wish that I had cast Leomund's Secret Chest and had the miniature right here."

No fiddling about with the wish; the miniature is here, the spell is active. There's a chest, with your name on it, and the miniature is in your hand. The chest doesn't have anything in it, and the spell will function as it does in the spell description. We're not even going to play around with WHEN the spell was cast ("Oh, it was cast 300 days ago and is long lost in the ether"). It just works the way intended.

What are logical consequences of this wish happening? What other spells could use this loophole and cause real problems?

[Segev]

What are logical consequences of this wish happening? What other spells could use this loophole and cause real problems?

I suppose my question is: what are you viewing as "this loophole?" This just seems to be wishing for a lower-level spell to be cast, to me.

Is it the creation of the chests? I suppose you could argue that instant summons could be used to create items it could summon, but then, wish can probably already do that, right? (Is instant summons still a spell in 5e?)

The big question is whether the chest is the TARGET of the spell or not. If it's the target, the spell being able to create it is problematic for things like, say, planar binding. If it's a component, though, there's no issue.

[Man_Over_Game]

With anything like this with Wish, I'd rule that Wish creates whatever the material is (in this case the two chests, in contingency the small statue of yourself, in clone the container just appears). In regards to the time limit I'd understand making it permanent but I'd rule they'd just have to cast it again after the 30 days (I think?) to keep the spell active. I don't think just casting a spell with no cost but the slot once a month is a deal breaker or unreasonable.

The catch is, every time you cast Wish that doesn't expend the component, you end up making items. Like casting Contingency with Wish. Is it broken? Hardly, but it is a weird side effect of this ruling.

[LibraryOgre]

I suppose my question is: what are you viewing as "this loophole?" This just seems to be wishing for a lower-level spell to be cast, to me.

Is it the creation of the chests? I suppose you could argue that instant summons could be used to create items it could summon, but then, wish can probably already do that, right? (Is instant summons still a spell in 5e?)

The big question is whether the chest is the TARGET of the spell or not. If it's the target, the spell being able to create it is problematic for things like, say, planar binding. If it's a component, though, there's no issue.

Personally, I don't see this as being much of a loophole; it's within the stated abilities of a Wish. But some folks seem to think it's a big one, so...

[Segev]

The catch is, every time you cast Wish that doesn't expend the component, you end up making items. Like casting Contingency with Wish. Is it broken? Hardly, but it is a weird side effect of this ruling.

I'd argue that you only create items when the component actually is essential to the functioning of the spell being replicated. If a spell's material component is, say, a mirror through which you see a distant location, the wish will create the mirror, or at least will give you the projection needed to see things. There's a lot of leeway in how to adjust the fluff. Maybe wish can make a cheap piece of polished wood do the trick, or even just project it onto the ground or the shiny bit of armor the fighter's wearing.

Maybe this wish doesn't make a fancy chest and replica, but takes a walnut that you have and makes a giant duplicate as your storage item.

Follow rule of cool to an extent, and don't stress too much over it. It does what it says it does, and you should take liberties to make it fit what you want it to for your game.

[Dalebert]

If it's a component, though, there's no issue.

Both are literally listed as material components.


The catch is, every time you cast Wish that doesn't expend the component, you end up making items. Like casting Contingency with Wish. Is it broken? Hardly, but it is a weird side effect of this ruling.

In that case, I can understand a DM ruling it makes less valuable versions so you're not getting free money every day, but being able to make a standard chest with Wish hardly seems a big deal for a tier 4 game.

Now in an AL game, there are wide-sweeping rules against getting free money via any loopholes. You just wouldn't be able to sell it. RAW, I think you should get the fancy chest. It's just fluff. You'd not be able to sell it ever.

[darknite]

Using Wish to replicate Leomund's Tiny Chest would totally create the chests you need. To quote the first line of the spell description ... 'Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast'. And using it to alt-cast a 4th level spell should be child's play for magic that potent.

[Rukelnikov]

Hardly. The target of FoD is not listed as a material component of the spell. FoD would be completely pointless without an enemy target. The chest in LSC is actually listed as a material component. It's not the target of the spell. It's a requirement to cast the spell.

When you cast Simulacrum, the snow is listed as a material component. It's not the target. It's a requirement. If you wish up a simulacrum, you don't have to provide it. The Wish either just makes a simulacrum out of nothing or it provides the snow. Either way, it's just fluff. The result is that you can safely wish for anything that can be provided by an 8th or lower level spell AND you don't have to fulfill the normal reqts of that spell. You just get what you wished for.

Note that Wish doesn't just say you don't need material components. It says you don't have to fulfill any of the requirements of the spell and then just to clarify it says that "includes" costly material components. Note that it also goes on to talk about how you can wish for wealth or items to just appear out of thin air. That's not a safe use if it's not imitating a spell effect, but it's capable of it.

Wish indeed allows you to ignore the requirements of a spell its duplicating, it does not, under a safe use at least, change the way a spell works. So while you wouldn't need to provide an expensive chest and a a miniature replica, you would still have to target a chest to hide it in the ethereal plane, and would still need to use your action to touch a miniature replica in order to summon the chest previously hidden, since both those things are not requirements but the spell description.

As other have said FoD doesn't create a target to be killed by it.

Another example of this would be Shillelagh, the Club or Quarterstaff are material components, if you use Wish to replicate it, does a Club/QS appear in your hand? Or can you now swing with an invisible force?

IMO, the most appropiate result would be for any required component to be created for the duration of the spell in cases where the spell would otherwise be useless (like LSC or Shillelagh). OFC if any of the components were above the 25k gp mark, then it just doesn't work.

[JackPhoenix]

Using Wish to replicate Leomund's Tiny Chest would totally create the chests you need. To quote the first line of the spell description ... 'Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast'. And using it to alt-cast a 4th level spell should be child's play for magic that potent.

You should propably read the whole spell descrpition, not just the first line. You definitely can create object through Wish, but it's a separate effect (and mutually exclusive for single casting) from replicating a spell, and carries more risks. And it doesn't matter what object you're creating, a single copper piece and a whole warship both carry the same risk.

[Dalebert]

You should propably read the whole spell descrpition, not just the first line.

And you should probably read the rest of the thread. You're not wishing for an object. Your wishing for a spell effect, and the point all along is the wish bypasses the need to meet ANY requirements including costly material components of which the chest and replica are listed as. That's been the driving point of this thread.

When I started, I didn't fathom that people would actually question that it creates the big chest--only whether it would be the same really valuable one (closest to raw IMHO) or a standard chest that simply functions the same way. The only other thing I wondered was whether folks would think it creates the replica or just makes it altogether unnecessary to summon and dismiss the chest since that's a costly material component of the spell, i.e. not necessary.

So to people who insist on saying I still must provide material components, I say "Read the spell. Don't stop at the part that says you can cast an 8th or lower level spell."

[CNagy]

Alternatively, if you Wish for a Leomund's Secret Chest, in those words, I'd give you one that some other Wizard lost to the ethereal plane. It may or may not still have anything in it. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though: Wish duplicating a spell without components for a spell that then requires those components for the spell effect is not explicitly ruled on, but we can assume that since you want to avoid the stress effects of Wish, it can't do any of the things that the Wish spell lists as alternatives to duplicating a spell--and that includes creating items. So I'd rule that using Wish to duplicate Leomund's Secret Chest gives you the large and small chests--but they are not real; rather they are a mixture of force and illusion. In all other respects, the spell acts as normal, with the small "chest" being the object used to recall the large "chest" from the Ethereal plane. When the spell ends, both chests vanish. The large "chest" dumps its contents wherever it happens to be when it vanishes.

[Chronos]

You don't need to provide material components. You do need to provide targets. The chest for LSC is both.

If a Wish is creating something by mimicking a spell effect, then it must be mimicking a spell that creates something. LSC doesn't create anything, so mimicking it doesn't create anything, either.

I suppose that an alternate interpretation is that you cast Wish and successfully hide nothing on the ethereal plane, but that would be spectacularly useless.

And really, when there's such an easy way to do exactly what you want, without depending on any rules interpretation (just provide your own cheap, mundane chest), why not just do that?

Wizard: Dibs on the next treasure chest we find!
Fighter: That doesn't make sense. Maybe the next chest we find will contain a magic weapon or armor that you can't use.
Wizard: Oh, I'm not claiming the contents of the chest. I just want the chest itself.

[Dalebert]

So I'd rule that using Wish to duplicate Leomund's Secret Chest gives you the large and small chests--but they are not real; rather they are a mixture of force and illusion. In all other respects, the spell acts as normal, with the small "chest" being the object used to recall the large "chest" from the Ethereal plane. When the spell ends, both chests vanish.

That seems fine to me. It's essentially creating the chest. Thing is, the spell doesn't end. Duration is instantaneous. What people think of as duration is actually the risk of losing track of it IF you leave it on the ethereal plane too long (without recasting).

[CNagy]

That seems fine to me. It's essentially creating the chest. Thing is, the spell doesn't end. Duration is instantaneous. What people think of as duration is actually the risk of losing track of it IF you leave it on the ethereal plane too long (without recasting).

Did this spell get errata'd? As written, the spell has 4 end conditions; 3 immediate (cast the spell again, destroy the small replica, or voluntarily end the spell), 1 variable (effect continues for 60 days, then has a cumulative 5% chance per day thereafter of ending.) Casting the spell again isn't an issue when you have components that you originally used but is uniquely an issue when you use Wish to circumvent the requirements. The spell's effect ends whenever it meets any of the above 4 conditions, even if it spent barely any time in the Ethereal plane. Unless the spell was updated at some point.

[Dalebert]

I stand corrected. I misremembered. The effect does end in those cases. I think in the wished up version, the conjured chest would actually vanish regardless of what plane it's on when the effect ends. Best to toss another wish at it before then.

[MoiMagnus]

Excuse me but... WISH fails because I don't have some bizarre crappy material components that you just arbitrarily added? Okay. *Shrug* Now back to what I can reasonably expect in an AL game.

I'd say you can reasonably expect from a (strict) DM to be denied the creation of the big chest in AL.

My interpretation is:
The main effect of Secret Chest is to hide a chest. That's the first line. The big chest is the target, and a spell without target has no effect.
[Depending on the interpretation, it either fail, or send "nothing" to the ethereal plane]
However, wish allows you to ignore costs and requirement, which mean you don't need any of the chests as materials (but you still need the big chest as a target), in particular the cost restriction on the chest doesn't apply (as it is on the material list). The size restriction still apply (as it is recalled in the text of the spell).
Since the replica is purely a material, it is created for the spell.

Then, in any real game, I would probably give the big chest to the PC to reward a clever reasoning. I would probably be making a secret roll for "is something weird happening?", because it would be a good opportunity to make the PC conjure by mistake a Secret Chest of someone else (due to "undefined behavior" of the wish spell), which would lead to some interesting consequences.