Lvl 20' vs. Liches

[Pinjata]

Hey guys,

so, a level 20 party of five - standard array - fighter, cleric, rogue, caster + X of your choice vs Liches from 5e as opponents. How many Liches would it take to TPK such a party in a combat?

Liches can pick any spell from PHB only for their "spells known" abilities.

[Waazraath]

Hey guys,

so, a level 20 party of five - standard array - fighter, cleric, rogue, caster + X of your choice vs Liches from 5e as opponents. How many Liches would it take to TPK such a party in a combat?

Liches can pick any spell from PHB only for their "spells known" abilities.

My first guess is: three. All of them pick counterspell to negate the full casters, while picking spells powerfull controll spells to divide the party and mass versions of blindness, banishment, maze to remove party members (effectively) from the fight; then proceed to pick off the party 1 by 1.

Depends on the fifth character though. If it is also a caster with access to counterspell, you might need an extra lich.

It also depends on the party of course; if you can optimize it for this fight, have the fighter and rogue pick alert with their extra ASI's and make 'em dex based, they could kill 1 or more liches even before they could act.

"who wins initiative" is rather relevant here.

[Theron_the_slim]

First of all, it highly depends on the equipment of the group. Even with 5e being less dependent on equipment its still, especially at higher levels, a massive difference (when you have some items that let you do crazy stuff in general, but at higher lvls you can expect that the group would have some)

For my answer, I will assume that the parts doesn´t have any magic equipment except +1 weapons (since without any magic weapons the fighter and rogue would be pretty much delete from the thought experiment, since the Lich has immunity against nonmagical weapon damage. In this case its important to notice that the Liches are less bulky than most of the characters, with an average HP of 135 and an ac of 17 (shield usually should be factor in here, since counterspell would till be the most effective reaction use ... its all about the action economy). The Liches advantage is mainly legendary resistance (no save or suck effects in the first round) and their legendary action paralyzing touch (if it works, they may get the upper hand action wise). In everything else, they are basicly wizards, which is nice, but the other side has them too, so no advantage here, especially if the are outnumbered. Pure damage is their biggest enemy, since their saves are good and they can force a success.

Depending what the fifth class (I assume a Paladin would in this situation the most useful addition) is, 2 Liches would be the first point where there is at least a realistic chance for the party to lose the encounter, as long the initiative roll goes in the favor of the Liches and they are able to dominate at least one of the nova characters and occupie the group (its a case where Saving throws of the party also mostly have to fail, so yeah, not the most likely scenario dice wise, but pretty much the best the can hope for in that matter (sure one lich would win if he only rolls awesome and the group has one nat1 after the other, but lets be real)

I would give 2 Liches somewhat of a 10-15% chance of victory, possible, but the need a lot of luck and bad saves from the party.


With 3 Liches the situation is pretty even, with average rolls on both sides I would still bet my money on the party, just because I think they would be able to smite the Liches usually pretty fast, but here is a lot less luck from the Liches involved for them to pin the party down and win (the thing is, a Lich, like most player characters, is a very big offensive threath, but not too bulky) I would give the Liches a 40-45% Chance of success


With 4 Liches stuff is now turned arround, because chances that they take out one of the party are pretty good and after it is a 1on1 fight, forced saves and legendary actions will give a strong edge. Still, there is a decent to good chance that the party just rolls high on initiative and is able to just blast one of the Liches and resist the initial crowd controll spells (especially with the protection aura of a paladin the chances are pretty good here) (2 Character attacks with ressources should be enough to delete one lich usually) so yeah, I assume about a 75% chance for the Liches here (its all about the Nova dmg and own saving throws here)

[OvisCaedo]

There are just SO many ways for this to go because they're full casters and you're putting the option open of PHB spells for them. What's the engagement range or terrain gonna be like? Do both sides know this fight is coming, or is it an ambush? Full casters are just WAY too swingy and all over the place with possible tactics or preparations.

Now I'm squinting at Wish and Simulacrum and trying to figure out if you can wish for a simulacrum of anyone, or if you still need to be within touch range of the creature you instantly conjure a a copy of. Hmmm. You ignore any requirements, but I don't think that would normally include range... is it targetting the snow you don't need, or the person...?

[Blood of Gaea]

As low as one and as many as Six. Once you hit the final tier of play, CR matters a lot less and you have to design encounters to your party.


Do they have ways to draw aggro to the tankiest players?
Does your party have Simulacrums in reserve, if so, how many?
How resilient to saving throws is the party?
How resistant to saving throws are the party?
How much pure damage can they put out?
Do they have ways of crowd controlling a Lich?
How much countermagic does the party have access to?
How efficient are they at fighting casters and undead?
What magic items do they have?
How much preparation does each side have for this fight?



This isn't really a question that is so simple to answer.

[MaxWilson]

Hey guys,

so, a level 20 party of five - standard array - fighter, cleric, rogue, caster + X of your choice vs Liches from 5e as opponents. How many Liches would it take to TPK such a party in a combat?

Liches can pick any spell from PHB only for their "spells known" abilities.

As others have said, it's hard to estimate without knowing more about the party. On the assumption that you're just trying to create a tough-but-beatable challenge for a module or something (where you don't actually know anything about the party), aiming to go one fewer than the number of liches that would TPK them... I'd guesstimate that 3 liches using stuff like pre-cast Symbol of Insanity or Wish (Symbol of Insanity) during combat, Wish (Simulacrum of PC) during combat, Meteor Swarm, Forcecage, Hold Person V, Counterspell, pre-cast Glyph of Darkness (liches already have truesight), Antimagic Field, etc. will reliably (80+% probability) TPK over half of the 20th level parties typical players would create.

In other words, if you want your module to have a rep akin to the Tomb of Horrors, 3 liches fighting dirty at the climax is probably enough liches to create that reputation. The parties that DON'T TPK will feel like they've accomplished something difficult and special.

[Pinjata]

As others have said, it's hard to estimate without knowing more about the party. On the assumption that you're just trying to create a tough-but-beatable challenge for a module or something (where you don't actually know anything about the party), aiming to go one fewer than the number of liches that would TPK them... I'd guesstimate that 3 liches using stuff like pre-cast Symbol of Insanity or Wish (Symbol of Insanity) during combat, Wish (Simulacrum of PC) during combat, Meteor Swarm, Forcecage, Hold Person V, Counterspell, pre-cast Glyph of Darkness (liches already have truesight), Antimagic Field, etc. will reliably (80+% probability) TPK over half of the 20th level parties typical players would create.

In other words, if you want your module to have a rep akin to the Tomb of Horrors, 3 liches fighting dirty at the climax is probably enough liches to create that reputation. The parties that DON'T TPK will feel like they've accomplished something difficult and special.

This is EXACTLY what I'm going for. Moreover - Licehs are NOT meant to be engaged. BUt if they are, I need the stats.

[Mitsu]

Ech, depends on Initiative. Level 20 characters (especially Paladins/Sorcadins, Wizards or Fighters) have option to nova/remove one Lich from the fight instantly. Especially if party is well-coordinated and buff each other.

For example a High STR Cleric can put Anti-magic Field around himself (10 feet radius) and walk whole party to liches no problem being protected from their spells. Then rest of the party breaks off to their own Liches and Cleric grapple inside Magic Field another Lich.

Paladin/Sorcadin can just Nova one Lich to dust. GWM Fighter can do the same, especially if he has good magic weapon. Wizard can do a lot of stuff, If Abjuration he will probably counter spell Liches couter spell easy. Lore Bard would counter spell everything Liches have unless Liches are Sorcerers with Subtle spell.

If ALL of Liches go first and use some combos like Force Cage into Seekening Radiance, or Gravity Pull into Prismatic Wall or 3x Prismatic wall to close party, or 3x Wall of Force, or Wish etc. They have fairy good chance to harm party, maybe even remove one party member. However party also have counter spells, dispel magic etc.

How many Liches, even 1 Lich per player would not be TPK probably as players are much stronger than single monsters, apart from some Legendary creatures.

Initiative would matter the most. If Liches could get an ambush somehow - that would be a big possibility of maybe not TPK but at least some deaths.

Of course even if you put 4 players to 0 HP- cleric or druid can get them up instantly anyway. So at least focus healers first.

[Blood of Gaea]

Another thing I figure I should mention. Synergies between party member can make them much more powerful than they would be otherwise. One example would be a Caster using Foresight on a Sharpshooter Samurai with Elven Accuracy, that can be a terrifying amount of damage they'll be dishing out consistently.

A monk could blow through a Liches legendary saves and leave it vulnerable to immediately being cleaned up by a caster.

A Battlemaster can give a Rogue reliable reaction attacks, significantly boosting the parties damage.

A Cleric can lock multiple Liches in an antimagic field with an angry grapple Barbarian.

A Paladin will make everyone much more resistant to saving throws, and Monks absurdly resilient to them.

[MaxWilson]

This is EXACTLY what I'm going for. Moreover - Licehs are NOT meant to be engaged. BUt if they are, I need the stats.

Make sure there's some good loot that you get off their bodies if you do engage them. After all, the liches are going to come back for it as soon as their bodies reform!

Nasty things that can happen to you if you make an enemy of a lich include: the lich goes around Wishing a bunch of your previously-defeated foes back to life (dragons, archwizards, etc.), and then Teleports eight of them on top of you in the middle of the night, when you're ostensibly safe at home, not wearing your armor, and not near any of the other PCs.


Ech, depends on Initiative. Level 20 characters (especially Paladins/Sorcadins, Wizards or Fighters) have option to nova/remove one Lich from the fight instantly. Especially if party is well-coordinated and buff each other.

For example a High STR Cleric can put Anti-magic Field around himself (10 feet radius) and walk whole party to liches no problem being protected from their spells. Then rest of the party breaks off to their own Liches and Cleric grapple inside Magic Field another Lich.

Simplest counterplay in response to Antimagic Field from the party is to just leave (via Teleport or Dimension Door or even just plain walking, though Mislead + walking would probably be the most fun to DM) and come back in ten minutes. Now the party is down an 8th level spell slot with nothing to show for it.

A lich certainly has other options to eliminate the Antimagic Field including Paralyzing the spellcaster who cast it, but a 300,000-year-old lich has no reason to be impatient about waiting for a 10-minute spell to terminate.


A monk could blow through a Liches legendary saves and leave it vulnerable to immediately being cleaned up by a caster.

That's fairly unlikely really. Your average monk is going to succeed on approximately one Stunning Strike per four attacks against a lich. (AC 17 +5, Con saves +10). Depleting 1/3 of its Legendary Resistances is not going to create serious problems for the lich, much less for three liches.

[darknite]

One thing I like to do in a Lich's lair is to have a 'sanctum' circle the Lich hangs out in that has a variety of Glyphs of Warding in place that activate when certain conditions occur. The obvious ones are Globe of Invulnerability (cast at 8th level), Banishment against those that intrude, etc.

[vexedart]

Put the lich in an 15x15x15 ft (adamantine?) cage hanging from chains high above, so they can more safely cast in it. It would limit the players success by quite a large margin and is something a lich is capable of creating after millennia, and is a rather simple tactic. Can sport some archer skelly boiz or casters with counter spell dangling from the ceilings as well in similar set ups. This makes it so players have to be a bit more creative in how they decide to attack the lich in its lair.

It would reward spells that allow teleportation and flight.

Could have some loose bricks behind the wall the lich can move through to cast on them as well before the fight begins. The players could smash through the bricks and give chase. Could be a fun chase seen to the liches main lair.

Plus the players could get a sweet 15x15x15 ft adamantine cage that might come in handy later. Melt it down into more formidable tools or weapons. Could keep it to capture something nasty they need around. Whatever’s clever.