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JNAProductions
2019-06-17, 08:30 AM
So, there are zombies (full corpses). There are skeletons (just the bones). Why aren't there undead that are just skin? Or just muscle?

Or are there, and I don't know about them?

Edit: Asked a good friend, and they pointed out that you're typically either gonna get a full corpse or a decayed corpse with only the bones left intact.

Still, are there any weird undead I don't know about?

ExLibrisMortis
2019-06-17, 09:07 AM
Insects make cool skeletons because they have exoskeletons.

Uh, yeah. That's all really. Insect skeletons are cool. I suppose crab skeletons are, too. Squid skeletons, not so much.

OldTrees1
2019-06-17, 09:11 AM
So, there are zombies (full corpses). There are skeletons (just the bones). Why aren't there undead that are just skin? Or just muscle?

Or are there, and I don't know about them?

Edit: Asked a good friend, and they pointed out that you're typically either gonna get a full corpse or a decayed corpse with only the bones left intact.

Still, are there any weird undead I don't know about?

Skin & Muscle
Forsaken Shell & Skin Kite {D&D 3.5 Libris Mortis}
Edit: Mentally replaced a word.

Great Dragon
2019-06-17, 09:13 AM
There were other types of Undead in older Editions.

Including improved Zombies called Juju Zombies that were just as tough, but also smart.

I don't have the books, so forget what it was called, but there was Undead Skin. (Forsaken?)

Slithered around like a snake, would engulf the target, and after killing them, would create another one....

Ninja'd by OldTrees1

JNAProductions
2019-06-17, 09:13 AM
Skin & Muscle
Forsaken Shell & Fleshkite {D&D 3.5 Libris Mortis}

I see the Forsaken Shell, but not the Fleshkite. Is Fleshkite under monsters, or somewhere else in the Libris Mortis?

Yanagi
2019-06-17, 09:35 AM
So, there are zombies (full corpses). There are skeletons (just the bones). Why aren't there undead that are just skin? Or just muscle?

Or are there, and I don't know about them?

Edit: Asked a good friend, and they pointed out that you're typically either gonna get a full corpse or a decayed corpse with only the bones left intact.

Still, are there any weird undead I don't know about?

Yeah, there are some weird ones. I mean, undead are like recipes. Most of the time you get what you need with the necromancy equivalent of soup and sandwiches--pciked-over bones and cadavers being plentiful in the murderhobo ecosystem, available to be appropriated on short notice--but clearly some guys are willing to put in the kitchen/lab time to create the undeath equivalent of sous-vide duck a l'orange.

3e Libris Mortis has the largest sample menu.

Blood Amniote is just congealed blood.
Brain in a Jar is mostly sweetbreads and a pinch of tumeric for color is self-explanatory.
Raiment is an undead formed of the clothes of a dead person.
Skin Kite is a flying undead made of people's skin
Skulking Cyst is a cyst that develops in a person, kills them, then persists as a kind of undeand. Also, it skulks.
Tomb Mote is an pick-and-mix assembly of grave detritus--teeth, hair, bone bits.

Doubtless there's other possibilities. Somewhere I've seen a splatbook undead that was animated intestines. I didn't stat it, but I once had a point element in which cremation remains were reanimated into a kind of sand-storm like whirling mass.

Segev
2019-06-17, 10:18 AM
Crawling claws are constructs in some editions, and undead in others: they're made from severed left hands of murderers (or just severed hands, depending on how attentive to detail the lore-writer is).

An undead severed lizard tail could be a cool "snake zombie" or the like.

Great Dragon
2019-06-17, 11:15 AM
Found
3.5 Undead List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474935-3-5-Undead-list)

BWR
2019-06-17, 12:08 PM
Druj (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540231-Druj-%96-diminutive-undead-(PEACH))typically possesss skulls, hands or eyes.

Phhase
2019-06-17, 02:46 PM
Here you go: <Hopefully you finished reading as links like this are apparently questionable, even though it didn't seem pirated/etc. to me>

Monsters proper start at 83, including the Forsaken Shell (100) and Skin Kite (119). In general, this book has some pretty crazy stuff. There's a whole series of spells about cancer, for example.

Kyrell1978
2019-06-17, 02:48 PM
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/shredskin/

Just skin......

Segev
2019-06-17, 02:53 PM
Here you go: {deleted}

Monsters proper start at 83, including the Forsaken Shell (100) and Skin Kite (119). In general, this book has some pretty crazy stuff. There's a whole series of spells about cancer, for example.

I don't think you're allowed to post pdfs of copyrighted books here. May want to delete that.

OldTrees1
2019-06-17, 10:03 PM
I see the Forsaken Shell, but not the Fleshkite. Is Fleshkite under monsters, or somewhere else in the Libris Mortis?

Sorry, Skin Kite (page 119 in Libris Mortis).

Lord Arkon
2019-06-18, 03:04 AM
One 3rd party book for Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition had a set of 'Siege Undead'. The book was either the Creature Collection, or the Creature Collection II, by White Wolf's 'Swords & Sorcery Studios' label. Part of the Scarred Lands setting.

They were an attempt by necromancers to make undead on limited resources (they were under a siege at the time).

First, they took off the skin, filled it with sand and rocks, and sewed it closed to make a hulking vaguely humanoid thing. Then they removed the bones, tied them together, and made a variant skeleton. Next, they added some sticks and rods to the remaining meat, and some other reinforcements and that was powerhouse of the set. All three were then animated together by a single Animate Dead.

I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact names and can't access the books right now.

And I think Ravenloft had some undead skins you could pack up and store in a chest to surprise adventurers.

a_flemish_guy
2019-06-18, 10:10 AM
this thread has me thinking about cloackers made out of skin and then about how it would feel getting engulfed by one, thank you very much, now I have to go and get a 2nd lunch

Segev
2019-06-18, 11:03 AM
One 3rd party book for Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition had a set of 'Siege Undead'. The book was either the Creature Collection, or the Creature Collection II, by White Wolf's 'Swords & Sorcery Studios' label. Part of the Scarred Lands setting.

They were an attempt by necromancers to make undead on limited resources (they were under a siege at the time).

First, they took off the skin, filled it with sand and rocks, and sewed it closed to make a hulking vaguely humanoid thing. Then they removed the bones, tied them together, and made a variant skeleton. Next, they added some sticks and rods to the remaining meat, and some other reinforcements and that was powerhouse of the set. All three were then animated together by a single Animate Dead.

I'm sorry, I don't remember the exact names and can't access the books right now.

And I think Ravenloft had some undead skins you could pack up and store in a chest to surprise adventurers.

In Exalted, the soul structure of humans makes it feasible to get three undead from every person: a ghost (the higher soul, or hun), a hungry ghost (the lower soul, or po), and a zombie (the corpse). Hungry ghosts behave like semi-corporeal ghouls for the most part, when left to their own devices. Ghosts and zombies are what you'd expect them to be, more or less.

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-19, 01:09 AM
The Vamphyrii books by Brian Lumley have a number of interesting uses for undead. The books themselves are ... fairly pulpy, but fun regardless, and as may be obvious, has to do largely with the vampire style of undead. However vampires, once converted by a symbiont, are largely indestructable - or will at the very least survive some rather impressive mutilation in a controlled environment.

What this means is that the various vampire lords would create all manner of war beasts and flying mounts for themselves - out of lesser vampires. It also means that their eyries have plumbing and sewage systems, gas production and -light, all powered by vampires reduced to vats and pipes and so on. Automated doors and curtains are another example.

Quite ... gruesome, one might consider - but then isn't most necromancy?

Imbalance
2019-06-20, 09:56 AM
I don't know of any publication, but I can't fathom this idea is original: I was revising security drawings and imagined a "closed circuit" surveillance system using a network of reanimated eyeballs and optic nerves in place of modern cameras.

ExLibrisMortis
2019-06-20, 10:23 AM
I don't know of any publication, but I can't fathom this idea is original: I was revising security drawings and imagined a "closed circuit" surveillance system using a network of reanimated eyeballs and optic nerves in place of modern cameras.
You might have issues with relay speed. Human neurons conduct signals at speeds of up to 120 m/s (thanks, Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve#Function)!), which is a lot slower than a comparable electric connection.

Of course, this relies on the entirely ludricous notion that modern neurological insights have some bearing on reanimated eyeballs. Still, for what it's worth...

Lord Arkon
2019-06-20, 11:24 PM
One 3rd party book for Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition had a set of 'Siege Undead'. The book was either the Creature Collection, or the Creature Collection II, by White Wolf's 'Swords & Sorcery Studios' label. Part of the Scarred Lands setting.

Okay, having checked, it was the Creature Collection II. And the Siege Undead were the Boneman (skeleton and brain, it retained some rudimentary intelligence), the Sandman (skin, with sand and stones for structure), and the Meatman (made from the rest of the body, with weapons secured in place of the hands).

And that's some of the fun you can have with necromancy! If you want, you can add creating an incorporeal undead, and some horrible ooze-like animated blood, and your necromancers can get five undead out of one corpse.

Tvtyrant
2019-06-20, 11:31 PM
Ghosts are just the soul, so there is that.

Flameskulls are just flying skulls that are on fire.

I imagine someone has made giant's feet into boots that are made for stomping.

Segev
2019-06-21, 10:20 AM
Libris Mortis has rules for armor made from bone and flesh (not that Hide and Leather and Dragonscale aren't the latter already). It might be interesting to craft Bone Armor with enough bones in the right places to try to animate it as a skeleton and wear it like power armor. Or maybe even a zombie, with enough flesh worked into it.

Bacon Elemental
2019-06-21, 12:22 PM
Lets not forget the joys of Dwarf Fortress, where a necromancer resurrecting the products of a butcher's shop is a very real threat to any dwarf incapable of surviving an undead hide attack.

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-21, 12:34 PM
Edit: Asked a good friend, and they pointed out that you're typically either gonna get a full corpse or a decayed corpse with only the bones left intact.

I'd like to point out that there's typically a few points between that, and I sincerely doubt that in the DnD world you're going to get an intact skeleton. Firstly, there are several stages between 'freshly dead' and 'desiccated skeleton'. I'm just not entirely sure how to describe them on a PG-13 forum, but they do exist.

And secondly, in a world where you have dire wolves, dire bears and dire honey badgers, something is going to come and eat or break bits of bone to get at the good stuff. Getting an intact skeleton with enough natural predators with bone breaking capability is just going to be hard. And at that point, you might as well start mixing and matching skeletons because you're missing an awful lot of ribs and why not just go for a unique design at that point?

Not to mention, several methods of corpse disposal, such as natural mummification through desert burial or chucking the body into a peat bog. In both cases various bits survive but it really isn't 'fresh'.

Personally, I'd like to see stats for some undead made out of cremated remains, just so a a necromancer can give the finger to anyone who thought they were going get away doing that. Thought you were safe, HUH?


Yeah, there are some weird ones. I mean, undead are like recipes. Most of the time you get what you need with the necromancy equivalent of soup and sandwiches--pciked-over bones and cadavers being plentiful in the murderhobo ecosystem, available to be appropriated on short notice--but clearly some guys are willing to put in the kitchen/lab time to create the undeath equivalent of sous-vide duck a l'orange.

This makes me think that we need stats to make an ossuary into an undead. Or google 'Bone Church'. Now THAT'S a magum opus for a necromancer!

Segev
2019-06-21, 12:49 PM
Personally, I'd like to see stats for some undead made out of cremated remains, just so a a necromancer can give the finger to anyone who thought they were going get away doing that. Thought you were safe, HUH?!

This actually is something I've given periodic thought to. Given that burial leaves behind corpses to rise (spontaneously or otherwise) as undead, why do any cultures practice that rather than cremation? IRL, there's elements of reverence for the shell that once held a person, plus there's a lot of sense that afterlife might well need an intact corpse (hence why "proper burial" is a big deal; prevents predators and scavengers from ripping them apart post-mortem). But when the evil necromancer and the spontaneous animation of the dead actually gathers in places associated with death, having a cemetary full of corpses seems really dumb.

So, then...the consequences of cremation must be at least as bad, if not worse.

Perhaps cremated corpses have a greater tendency to produce incorporeal undead, arising spontaneously. Shadows, spectres, wraiths...restless spirits tormented after death rather than being laid peacefully to rest. But "tormented after death" makes cremation an actually evil, horrid thing to do, so that's probably too much. Maybe, then, the reason corpses are so easily animated and the reason they're laid on hallowed ground is that they really do gather necromantic, negative energies. Older corpses hold more. Unless they break down or apart, in which case those elements...escape.

They're like septic tanks: the icky death energies pool in them, rather than being released into the world.

Cremated corpses don't perform this service. Likewise, however, they don't become spontaneously-arisen undead because of it. Cremation is the "easy" option, but there's a great deal of death energy that pervades the air. Lands are harsher, and uncremated corpses are more likely to arise spontaneously, and the restless spirits of the dead ARE more likely to remain due to the energies being available to coalesce. Properly buried on sanctified ground (or in desecrated ground dedicated to harnessing the horrid energies for another purpose), corpses gather in that miasma of death, and store it. The hallowed ground contains them and keeps them quiescent. Specifically unhallowed ground is likely designed to channel it somewhere...useful.

Corpses that break down eventually do release this energy. Ancient cemetaries need periodic cleansings. This can lead to the rise of Bonyards and other megalithic undead conglomerations. Or necromentals, which aren't really elementals nor undead, but have the trappings of both as the energies that would animate the dead instead animate elements in a mockery of real elementals.

But a properly-maintained cemetary, despite its spooky atmosphere, leads to a balance of energies in the surrounding area that favor life. This may be why farming cultures tend more towards burial, and warrior cultures more towards cremation: aside from the difficulty of maintaining mausolea when on a military campaign, death is the business of war, and they care less about lush farming. Also, if causality works the other way, the cremation culture will have less abundant crops for the same amount of work, as they aren't siphoning the death out of the land and air into the carefully-consecrated storage facility.

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-21, 01:13 PM
This actually is something I've given periodic thought to. Given that burial leaves behind corpses to rise (spontaneously or otherwise) as undead, why do any cultures practice that rather than cremation? IRL, there's elements of reverence for the shell that once held a person, plus there's a lot of sense that afterlife might well need an intact corpse (hence why "proper burial" is a big deal; prevents predators and scavengers from ripping them apart post-mortem). But when the evil necromancer and the spontaneous animation of the dead actually gathers in places associated with death, having a cemetary full of corpses seems really dumb.

Another problem is, no DnD setting that I am aware of has any relationship between the fate of the soul and what happens to the body. You could have the darn thing fed to wolves and then the wolves set on fire and the Paladin is still going to be chilling on Mount Celestia fist bumping angels and probably not even notice until someone told them.

Now, the argument could be made that player characters REALLY need to be discouraged from MORE desecration of bodies, (even non-murder hobos aren't going to be okay with the guy who killed their favorite NPC taking a nice vacation to the Nine Hells.)

The only problem I have with the idea of a graveyard being a way to trap icky death energies is that well...Bodies don't really last long in the ground. I mean, you barely have a few years in the best of circumstances and then the body is kinda well, not really all there if you get my meaning. However, many places around the world effectively have a time share on burial plots or mausoleums, in which case the area is reused. Maybe a family could share a plot or the like, with the eldest child of each generation or whatever having the responsibility of being buried for a time to create the negative energy sink

Personally, I've been toying with the idea that a setting might retain corpses of high ranking nobles or wise priests to ask them questions later on. Sorta had when you set the body afire...Or it could be that 'good' necromancy could potentially exist and you want some friendly ghosts of your ancestors to protect you so keeping a hold of their remains allows you to be protected by them. Why does Evil get all of the ghostly fun, anyway?

Segev
2019-06-21, 01:26 PM
Another problem is, no DnD setting that I am aware of has any relationship between the fate of the soul and what happens to the body. You could have the darn thing fed to wolves and then the wolves set on fire and the Paladin is still going to be chilling on Mount Celestia fist bumping angels and probably not even notice until someone told them.

Now, the argument could be made that player characters REALLY need to be discouraged from MORE desecration of bodies, (even non-murder hobos aren't going to be okay with the guy who killed their favorite NPC taking a nice vacation to the Nine Hells.)D&D's main incentive for burial and corpse-preservation is in their raise dead and related spells: you need a mostly-intact corpse. Why that applies to thsoe who never will afford it is another question, and I could concoct answers, but I don't feel like it.


The only problem I have with the idea of a graveyard being a way to trap icky death energies is that well...Bodies don't really last long in the ground. I mean, you barely have a few years in the best of circumstances and then the body is kinda well, not really all there if you get my meaning. However, many places around the world effectively have a time share on burial plots or mausoleums, in which case the area is reused. Maybe a family could share a plot or the like, with the eldest child of each generation or whatever having the responsibility of being buried for a time to create the negative energy sink Possible. It could also be that the consecration holds the corpses together better. I mean, we see mythical armies of the undead rising from graveyards in fiction, so the bodies must still be there to some degree. No, this may not be realistic given how decay actually works (I honestly don't know), but we're talking about fiction, here, so altering the rules to support the fiction isn't unreasonable.

I like your idea of "time share" and a "duty" to be buried in the family plot. The proper heir being buried there might form increasing concentrations of the death energies, making finding the "right" corpse for the evil necromancer's magnum opus all the more important. It also would explain vengeful spirits from ancient lines being more powerful than random familyless vengence ghosts. That Death Knight is the last scion of an ancient and venerable noble clan, killed before she could bear the next generation and bearing the entire line's grudges along with the accumulated curse of undeath of centuries.

This also means that mummification is a valid and valuable thing: the venerable corpse of a long-dead Pharoah is steeped in millenia of this energy, having stored it in the custom-built paradise of his own afterlife. When the sacred geometry and symbolism is broken, the mummy's curse is his awakened vengeance. A strongly good-aligned mummy is desperately trying to put his sacred tomb back together before he is overcome; an evil one is revelling in his chance to wreak havoc, starting with whoever disturbed his slumber (because it's a convenient excuse).


Personally, I've been toying with the idea that a setting might retain corpses of high ranking nobles or wise priests to ask them questions later on. Sorta had when you set the body afire...Or it could be that 'good' necromancy could potentially exist and you want some friendly ghosts of your ancestors to protect you so keeping a hold of their remains allows you to be protected by them. Why does Evil get all of the ghostly fun, anyway?Speak with dead would incentivize such behavior. Having a room full of "talking heads" that are preserved specifically so that nobles can question their ancestors would not be unreasonable.

In an Exalted game, I have a Lunar NPC who is a Necromancer who invented a spell that lets her animate heads and force them to answer questions with knowledge they would have had when alive. She uses this to supplement her impersonation of others she kills to take the form of. She questions their heads in depth about things she may not know, herself, so she can better fake their knowledge.

Malphegor
2019-06-23, 05:47 AM
Hm. that’s a thought. Undead based on cremated remains... Bone ash, animated.

Maybe it’d act like shapesand except it has a will of its own and will try to kill its user on a failed check...

Hands- Crawling Claws

Feet- also crawling claws with a DM’s permission since afaik there’s no foot undead

Zits: skulking cysts- toss some in an orphanage or a stable, come back in a few months to magically birth your swarm of undead infection vectors!

Eyes- I am certain there is a ‘use an eyeball as a animated scrying tool’ spell, not sure if you get any additional benefits from weird eyes like a bodak’s eye

The rainment is interesting because it is clothes- a necromancer wearing their minion so that even if they die their clothes will puppeteer them into combat is an entertaining concept- even death will not deter you!

I think I’ve seen animated muscles somewhere but as a reflavoured zombie type with the same stats.

Brain in a jar is a classic in libris
mortis albeit terrifying- a non psionic creature can create undead which are psionic.

Would be entertaining to have a single entity composed of multiple undead piloting a corpse. The heart pumping
the fluids around for the brain in a jar on top of the skeleton wearing a undead rainment.


At some point you’re probably going to have to ignore undead and start treating them as constructs and animated objects with the undead type where there’s no statblocks I suppose. Like, I doubt anyone’s statted out an undead appendix.

Jay R
2019-06-23, 10:18 AM
The trope is something dead coming back to the world. Something dead might be a corpse (zombies, vampires, etc.), a skeleton, or nothing at all (wraiths, ghosts, etc.).

So this is what the old stories show, and so this is what a game based on old stories has.

You can invent anything you like, of course, but to the extent that it is based on the old literature, that's what you are likely to get.

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-23, 11:04 AM
The trope is something dead coming back to the world. Something dead might be a corpse (zombies, vampires, etc.), a skeleton, or nothing at all (wraiths, ghosts, etc.).

So this is what the old stories show, and so this is what a game based on old stories has.

You can invent anything you like, of course, but to the extent that it is based on the old literature, that's what you are likely to get.

In all fairness, the vampire in DnD is clearly from Bram Stoker's novel, and not older incarnations of the myth. And that book is BARELY over 100 years, so that's pretty new as far as folklore goes.

Also, is there even a folklore basis for skeletons?

Malphegor
2019-06-23, 11:11 AM
In all fairness, the vampire in DnD is clearly from Bram Stoker's novel, and not older incarnations of the myth. And that book is BARELY over 100 years, so that's pretty new as far as folklore goes.

Also, is there even a folklore basis for skeletons?

A lot of old medieval artwork uses skeletons as shorthand for death incarnate, also there’s a Brothers Grimm story where a boy joins a troupe of eternally dancing skeletons and becomes one of them.

D&D probably originally bases its skeletons on animated skeletons in Sinbad movies of the 50s and the 1960s Jason and the Argonauts.

I can’t think of many skeleton focused entities directly, but skeletal beings do exist here and there in every mythology eventually since it’s innately spooky on a primal level- if you see a skeleton of your species one of your species has died and this may be a place to avoid.

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-23, 11:19 AM
A lot of old medieval artwork uses skeletons as shorthand for death incarnate, also there’s a Brothers Grimm story where a boy joins a troupe of eternally dancing skeletons and becomes one of them.

Being attacked by a metaphor does sound appropriate for certain sessions of DnD, I'll give you that.


D&D probably originally bases its skeletons on animated skeletons in Sinbad movies of the 50s and the 1960s Jason and the Argonauts.

I can’t think of many skeleton focused entities directly, but skeletal beings do exist here and there in every mythology eventually since it’s innately spooky on a primal level- if you see a skeleton of your species one of your species has died and this may be a place to avoid.

We really can't dismiss how much of DnD is influenced by movies, or have we forgotten the humble monk and its origins?

Great Dragon
2019-06-23, 12:04 PM
We really can't dismiss how much of DnD is influenced by movies, or have we forgotten the humble monk and its origins?

Well, I find it sad when talking about "Kung Fu", most people ask about a Panda, and not Kwai Chang Cane (David Carradine).....

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-23, 01:40 PM
Well, I find it sad when talking about "Kung Fu", most people ask about a Panda, and not Kwai Chang Cane (David Carradine).....

*pat pat* Yeah, I hate to say it, but I only know of that guy through Red Letter Media and Rifftrax. I don't really think he has much of a cultural impact anymore.

Back on track, does anyone know how long a body would last in a burial with and without a coffin? And would the coffin be cheating? The best guess is around 50 years with a coffin, but that is referencing body farms and modern day coffins.

Great Dragon
2019-06-23, 03:10 PM
Back on track, does anyone know how long a body would last in a burial with and without a coffin? And would the coffin be cheating? The best guess is around 50 years with a coffin, but that is referencing body farms and modern day coffins.

I'd say that it depends a lot on environmental conditions of the area.

Aren't they still finding mostly intact Skeletons in the drier areas of the US Midwest?

I do know that a lot of the more "wet" regions of the Southern states, they don't bury people in the ground, and use stone for "coffins" instead of wood.

Even here, I really have no clue for the chances of an intact Skeleton, though.

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-23, 04:52 PM
Aren't they still finding mostly intact Skeletons in the drier areas of the US Midwest?

I'd try to look for evidence of this, but do you mean in an archaeological sense, or a criminal sense? That would ah, change things a bit.

Great Dragon
2019-06-23, 06:39 PM
I'd try to look for evidence of this, but do you mean in an archaeological sense, or a criminal sense? That would ah, change things a bit.

I was thinking archeological, mostly.

Wierdest (https://www.rd.com/culture/weirdest-archaeological-discoveries/)

For criminal, I suppose Divination Magic (other than Speak with Dead) could duplicate modern forensics

History Detectives (https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/technique/learning-from-skeletons/)

Jay R
2019-06-24, 08:34 AM
Well, I find it sad when talking about "Kung Fu", most people ask about a Panda, and not Kwai Chang Cane (David Carradine).....

Kids these days! Why can't they be boomers like we were when we were kids?

Great Dragon
2019-06-24, 10:27 AM
Kids these days! Why can't they be boomers like we were when we were kids?

Hey! I'm only (barely) Gen X!
(Are kids born in the 70s called Gen Y?,
Kids born in the 80s called Gen Z?
*what are those that were Teens in the 80s called?*
And everything from 1990-2010 are Millennials?)

I kicked the Boomer's trash cans over, but I didn't kill their Lawn. (Though I might stand on it, just to be annoying! 🤣)

Although, I might have developed some of the "standards" of the Older Generations…..
Ponders how much that's due to being a Gamer.

Segev
2019-06-24, 10:45 AM
Hey! I'm only (barely) Gen X!
(Are kids born in the 70s called Gen Y?,
Kids born in the 80s called Gen Z?
*what are those that were Teens in the 80s called?*
And everything from 1990-2010 are Millennials?)

I kicked the Boomer's trash cans over, but I didn't kill their Lawn. (Though I might stand on it, just to be annoying! ��)

Although, I might have developed some of the "standards" of the Older Generations…..
Ponders how much that's due to being a Gamer.

My understanding is that you're Gen X if you were born from 1961 thru 1980, and are a Millenial if you were born 1981 thru 2000, and are Gen Z if you're born since then. Putting me very close to the cusp of Gen X and Millenial, but technically within the latter (I was born during the Reagan administration). Teens in the 80s are Gen Xers. If you were the target audience for He-Man, She-Ra, Transformers, Rainbow Brite, etc., you're either a very late Gen X or a very early Millenial. If your formative years were spent watching Disney Afternoon and the Justice League Animated Series, you're almost certainly a Millenial. (Teens in the 90s.)

So, now I must ask the obligatory question: Was Necromancy acceptable in the 80s? :smallbiggrin:

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-24, 10:59 AM
So, now I must ask the obligatory question: Was Necromancy acceptable in the 80s? :smallbiggrin:

Oh, silly Millennial, have you never seen the Thriller music video?

Segev
2019-06-24, 12:34 PM
Oh, silly Millennial, have you never seen the Thriller music video?

Believe it or not, I didn't see that until I was over 30.

I wasn't all that impressed, but then, Micheal Jackson's music is "unoffensive" to me, not "good." I know, them's fightin' words. Sorry to all his fans out there.

Great Dragon
2019-06-24, 12:48 PM
Oh, silly Millennial, have you never seen the Thriller music video?

Or Friday the 13th (1980), Part 2 (1981) Part 3 (1982), Part 4 (1984), Part 5 (1985), Part 6 (1986), Part 7 (1988), and Part 8 (1989); or A Nightmare on Elm Street (1984), Freddy's Revenge (1985), Dream Warriors (1987); The Dream Master (1988), The Dream Child (1989) or Evil Dead (1981)...

Malphegor
2019-06-27, 12:05 AM
If you want an example of old heroic ‘necromancy’ I highly recommend Disney’s bedknobs and broomsticks.

One spell, and all the forgotten warriors of britain rise up to defend against the foe, each one marching and carrying on the incantation as a battle hymn.

(specifically the spell used was more of a concentration-based Animate Objects but the objects themselves could concentrate on each other to maintain themselves, but it’s close enough to necromancy)

Honest Tiefling
2019-06-27, 11:05 AM
Believe it or not, I didn't see that until I was over 30.

To each their own, I'm more curious as to how you avoided it. You need to get out of your crypt once in a while.

And you raise an interesting point, Malphegor, but uh...I am completely unfamiliar with that work and it doesn't even have a wikipage. I don't know if it has a historical basis or was something that Mary Norton just invented. Given how forgotten that work is, I wonder if the creators of DnD were even aware of it.

Segev
2019-06-27, 12:02 PM
To each their own, I'm more curious as to how you avoided it. You need to get out of your crypt once in a while. But it's cozy in here! And I have internet access!

More seriously, I avoided it mainly by not watching music videos and not having people who tried to push them on me. I didn't have cable growing up, either. So it would've taken work to hunt it down, if I'd even known it was a thing.


And you raise an interesting point, Malphegor, but uh...I am completely unfamiliar with that work and it doesn't even have a wikipage. I don't know if it has a historical basis or was something that Mary Norton just invented. Given how forgotten that work is, I wonder if the creators of DnD were even aware of it.It's a good movie from the live action movies era of Disney. Same general period as Mary Poppins, about the same effects style and budget, too. Angela Lansbury played the main character witch. I believe the actor who played Mr. Banks in Marry Poppins played the charlatan magic teacher in it.

The spell in question actually animated objects and gave them personality based on their purpose and (it's faintly hinted) their former users. It's worth seeing the movie if you like family movies. But if you're not worried about spoilers...

The spell was used to animate a ton of war paraphenalia from medieval history and sending them to war against invading Nazis. The animated objects were immune to most forms of damage, since they had to be completely destroyed to stop them rather than shooting internal organs, and it was largely played as a moment of awesome and comedic curbstomp.

Great Dragon
2019-06-27, 12:41 PM
@Segev:
I actually did grow up with that, along with a lot of the other Live Action Disney movies of the 70s.

Although, Disney pushed Marry Poppins a lot more than B&B, so it's not surprising when someone hasn't seen it. I think they're talking about doing a modern remake of B&B, though.


****
Personally, I saw the "spell" as being Alteration/Necromancy*, and more of a sustained Ritual. (Being a plot driven Duration)

(* Alteration - excuse me, Transmutation - because the stuff is just Animated Objects, but Necromancy due to the individual Personality of previous owner/s could be seen as "Awakening" thier Spirits.)

But, Concentration could also work, since once the main Character stopped chanting (got hit/shot IiRC), Everything falls to the ground.

Either way: Still enough to drive away those pesky Nazi, though.

Imbalance
2019-06-27, 12:47 PM
I always interpreted it as conjuration.

"Treguna Mekoides and Trecorum Satis Dee" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutiary_Locomotion)

Jay R
2019-06-27, 04:24 PM
(* Alteration - excuse me, Transmutation - because the stuff is just Animated Objects, but Necromancy due to the individual Personality of previous owner/s could be seen as "Awakening" thier Spirits.)

It can't be necromancy, because she animates some objects belonging to living people -- Emelius Brown's shoes, Charlie's pants, the chaplain's hat, and her own nightgown.

Great Dragon
2019-06-28, 10:57 AM
Heh. It's fun discussing these things.


I always interpreted it as conjuration.

The debate of the difference between the effects of Alteration and Conjuration spells are nearly immortal.

I can't even remember when it was stated that Alteration could only change one thing to another.

But then Conjuration was only "allowed" to bring forth creatures/beings (and grudgingly objects) from somewhere else.


Imbalance
Substitutiary Locomotion
Those were the only words I really remembered from the movie. I knew there were actual words for the spell, but couldn't ever remember them.


It can't be necromancy, because she animates some objects belonging to living people -- Emelius Brown's shoes, Charlie's pants, the chaplain's hat, and her own nightgown.

It's just as possible that those items hadn't been owned/worn enough to "absorb" sufficient Spirit Energy to be given much Personality by the Necromantic side of the spell.

Plus, how much "Personality" can a 'flying' hat have?

I'll agree that it can't be Necromancy by itself.
Are Poltergeists the only ones that can Animate things?

As for D&D spell comparing, I think 3x was the only Edition to really have Dual School spells.