How would you raise Balor to CR 20-25?

[Pinjata]

Hey guys,

I'm doing some mechanical refluffing for 5e and I need to give some aditional "oomph" to a specific balor (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Balor#content). I know there are quite a few people here, who will be able to point out monster's glaring weaknesses, as well as suggest upgrades far better then me, so - i ask :)

A few limitations:
- I'd like to limit books to core (PHB, MM and DMG)
- I'd prefer for the guy to be boosted via innate traits and abilities vs. giving him special items
- if you really need to give the guy a magic item, give him ONE item. Again, no Epic Bag of Zounds of Squirrels, please :)

thank you :)

[NatureKing]

Give the whip has a restrain effect
Make the Sword Vorpal instead do the triple crit

Spellcasting as an Ancient Dragon of its intended CR (ie, 4 8th level spells: Dispel Magic, Dominate Monster, Flame Storm, Telekinesis)

Implosion: Can maintain Concentration for 4 rounds. If at the end of, 4 rounds the chosen creature is reduced to 0 hit points, and disintegrated into a bloody puff.

Legendary Actions
Legendary Action Teleport, and make a melee attack at a creature in reach (2 Actions)
Attack (action)
Cast a spell (3 actions)

Lair Actions appropriate to the Lair.

[Great Dragon]

@NatureKing: Very good.

I'd suggest giving the Balor a different energy damage type to weapons.

Everyone expects the Whip to be fire (LotR)
But if you change that to, say, Thunder;
Plus the restraining suggestion.

Having the Sword x3 damage plus Necrotic.

These might not be things the Players expect.

Use Dispel Magic on obviously powerful weapons, where the Balor's Resistance/Immunity to non-magical weapons comes into play.

Watch out for tactics to burn Legendary Resistance, but using it against Banishment and similar makes sense.

[Zuras]

Give it the old Balor powers from previous editions—cast Symbol: Fear or Despair, but as an action (not taking a whole minute) and have it be a glowing unholy rune of fire sitting in the air.

Give it legendary actions, as others recommend, but enhance the teleport effect by dealing the Balor’s Fire aura damage to anything adjacent to it after the teleport.

Alternately, if you want to play up the flying and not the teleport, give it a wing attack legendary action like a dragon.

Give it the ability to cloak itself in so much fire it is heavily obscured, like the Shadow of Moil spell (giving the PCs disadvantage to hit it). Balor can do it as a bonus action, and it can’t be dispelled, but 20+ points of cold or water damage suppresses it temporarily.

Let it create mirror images of itself as a (recharge 6) bonus action—but they are actually living mirages of fire with the stats of a fire elemental, but otherwise distract like the mirror image spell.

You have lots of options, but you basically have to decide how you want it to play.

Tactical and cunning—give it spells and legendary actions, play hit and run.

Magical Brute—give it spells and enhance its action economy so it can multiattack and cast on the same turn.

Melee Brute—Give it some protection from attacks and legendary actions that force the PCs to do something besides just focus fire on it each turn.

[vexedart]

Always roll magic items before encounters, so monsters can use them too.

I imagine a balor with a cloak of the archmage and bracers of defense will make it much harder to hit. (+7ac) drop the sword, get a vorpal whip, use a flaming +3 heavy shield instead, no we’re at (+12ac). Teach it glyph of warding and give it improved invisibility, and counterspell, and shield (+17ac), should help turn it into a real monster. Legendary resistance should buy time against casters. You could get these numbers higher too. Depends on how bad you want to challenge your party, remember DMs have unlimited resources, while players are limited. When it dies and returns to the abyss it can just dwamjis instant summons all it’s nice gear back.

[Zuras]

Give the whip has a restrain effect
Make the Sword Vorpal instead do the triple crit

Spellcasting as an Ancient Dragon of its intended CR (ie, 4 8th level spells: Dispel Magic, Dominate Monster, Flame Storm, Telekinesis)

Implosion: Can maintain Concentration for 4 rounds. If at the end of, 4 rounds the chosen creature is reduced to 0 hit points, and disintegrated into a bloody puff.

Legendary Actions
Legendary Action Teleport, and make a melee attack at a creature in reach (2 Actions)
Attack (action)
Cast a spell (3 actions)

Lair Actions appropriate to the Lair.

I like the whip restraining and grappling them. I would add an effect that makes the target really want to break free, as well. You could add a legendary action that lets the Balor hurl a restrained target through hell for 10d10 Psychic (as the Pact of the Fiend ability) that can only be used on a target restrained by the whip immediately after its turn.

[Great Dragon]

In addition to the Fire Aura that is always in place, (I liked that being added to Teleport. Kinda a Fire-based Thunderstep) add a Lightning damage effect (an alternate Hellish Rebuke) when hit.

With multi-attack allowing both Sword and Whip in the same round, maybe give some Bonus Action options:
Dash, or Disengage.

Plus, as a Reaction, it can cast the Cold version of Hellish Rebuke.

And then pile on the Legendary Actions.
*****
Makes going toe-to-toe with it not a great idea.

But, staying ranged isn't easy, with the Balor's movement (including flight) plus Teleportation.

Spellcasters are easy targets for the Balor, this way.

[vexedart]

Hell(devil land) doesn’t make sense for a balor, it’s from the abyss(demon land). But I guess if it’s homebrew it works well. Could teach it planeshift and roll a few planes(maybe just the chaotic and evil axis planes) at random, keep the psychic damage. Seems more in line for a being of literal chaos and evil incarnate.

Don’t forget to trap whatever room they end up fighting it in. Unless the balor goes to them. Maybe align it with some hags to foretell the future to properly plan ahead. This is a creature that was formed from the elemental chaos warped by an alien fragment of pure evil brought to the elemental chaos(abyss, maybe read up on tharzudan if it hasn’t been retconned) since before time had been recorded. That is supernaturally good at everything it does, it is an intelligent arch-villain. Plan accordingly. It’s not supposed to be a weekend monster to kill, but a shadow in the background puppeting governments to move against one another to revel in the chaos and evil in their wakes. You’d think after an eternity a petty death wouldn’t be enough, you’d need it on a massive scale, something biblical should be in the works, fire in the sky, the death of everyone’s first born so that they might understand loss, a corruption of the land, winds that whip the flesh, diseases running rampant, the dead walking the earth. A culmination of prophecies. Cr25 is in line with the avatars of gods.

[darknite]

Some sort of magic nerfing - as a reaction can absorb 9 spell levels aimed at it specifically and use those spells levels to gain additional Legendary Actions points (Legendary Action total resets on its' turn).

[vexedart]

That is more powerful than any of the gods avatars listed abilities, maybe 6th level and lower spell immunity as in line with other cr25 creatures.

This removes already a huge function of spellcasters agency, and removing player agency is a nono in games if you want people to actually have fun and interact in your game without having their eyes gloss over from boredom(from not being able to do anything useful, captured ‘princess’ syndrome). Legendary resistance is already a can of worms that automatically negates a casters agency three times. Which only invites cheesy spells that don’t offer a saving throw and instead automatically take effect, or target a skill instead. If a spellcaster cant do anything might as well teleport/plane shift out and let the stabby shooty smashy guys do the heavy lifting.

As in line with tiamats avatar. A balor should probably be a pinch weaker than the split divinity of the creator of the d&d universe. (Io is rumored to have been split in two, one half bahamut, the other, Tiamat, and it’s blood creating the Dragonborn.)

At least in my opinion.

[Zuras]

Some sort of magic nerfing - as a reaction can absorb 9 spell levels aimed at it specifically and use those spells levels to gain additional Legendary Actions points (Legendary Action total resets on its' turn).

Making magic not work against it may make a harder fight, but it doesn’t usually make it more fun...

If you are increasing the difficulty by restricting magic effectiveness, I would either stick with Legendary Resistances, which players already understand the counterplay for, or environmental effects that the players have a chance to experience for at least one warm up fight.

[Great Dragon]

@darknite: Yikes!
A bit over the top, there.
More powerful than Legendary Resistance, since it can be used every round, without limit.
Added to LR, means that Spellcasters best not bother coming to the fight at all.

I agree with vexedart, in that Immunity to spells 6th Level or lower would be better.
While it might take casting Lighting Bolt as a 7th level spell sucks, it's at least an option.

[darknite]

Making magic not work against it may make a harder fight, but it doesn’t usually make it more fun...

If you are increasing the difficulty by restricting magic effectiveness, I would either stick with Legendary Resistances, which players already understand the counterplay for, or environmental effects that the players have a chance to experience for at least one warm up fight.

Legendary Resistances work against more than Magic. One thing you want with a big bad is to give it more options, more often. Link that to a natural immunity to magic that makes it difficult to one shot it once the legendaries are gone. And it's not a bad thing to have an ability the players don't understand. Legendary camping happens ("Wait, that was their third Legendary! I cast Disintigrate at 8th level!"). As long as the DM understands what's happening then its' up to the player to figure it out.

[vexedart]

Yeah but check out the numbers, this is if there’s one pure ninth level caster.

6th level immunity and under
2 7’s
1 8th
1 9th

3 legendary resistances

Means you have one chance that it’ll likely save against anyways. If they multiclass at all they can’t effect it with spells, they might as well planeshift out and gate it into a room with a million glyphs of warding, not fun for anyone.

That’s why you have to use spells that do not give saving throws, otherwise you’re just a liability, also not fun.

[Zuras]

Legendary Resistances work against more than Magic. One thing you want with a big bad is to give it more options, more often. Link that to a natural immunity to magic that makes it difficult to one shot it once the legendaries are gone. And it's not a bad thing to have an ability the players don't understand. Legendary camping happens ("Wait, that was their third Legendary! I cast Disintigrate at 8th level!"). As long as the DM understands what's happening then its' up to the player to figure it out.



Hey, if it works for you and your players, great. In my experience, though, if players have put in the time and effort to play Superman in Tier 3/4, they don’t want encounters to only be challenging because the enemy brought Kryptonite.

[NatureKing]

Legendary Resistances work against more than Magic. One thing you want with a big bad is to give it more options, more often. Link that to a natural immunity to magic that makes it difficult to one shot it once the legendaries are gone. And it's not a bad thing to have an ability the players don't understand. Legendary camping happens ("Wait, that was their third Legendary! I cast Disintigrate at 8th level!"). As long as the DM understands what's happening then its' up to the player to figure it out.

Ah, 'gotcha' Dming. Nice.

[KorvinStarmast]

How would you raise Balor to CR 20-25?
Increase the number/CR of other demons that it can summon; use the summon other demons variant in the MM; make the summoning assured.

[PhoenixPhyre]

CR 20-25 is a huge range. So let's talk sheer numbers.

A Balor in its CR 19 incarnation has the following relevant values.
Offense: oCR 20 (115.67 DPR, ATK +14)
Defense: dCR 23 (458.5 effective HP, AC 19).

So it's already under-CR as far as by the book calculations--it was reduced due to play-testing I'm sure.

CR 25 has the following benchmarks:
Offense: 221.5 DPR, ATK +12. Accounting for the extra accuracy means that the target DPR is 203.5, a change of about +85 needed.
Defense: 603 effective HP. AC is right on par, so you need another 42 effective HP.

Each legendary resistance in T4 is worth 30 effective HP, so a standard 3 LR puts it defensively right in range.
As for 85 DPR, giving it the standard set of legendary actions (move, attack) adds ~34*3 ~ 100 DPR, so right in the right range.

So simplest scaling:

Add 3 Legendary Resistances.
Add 3 Legendary Action uses:
* Move (maybe can Teleport as LA)
* Attack (Longsword)
* Attack (Multi-whip)

[Great Dragon]

PhoenixPhyre:

Would adding my suggested Bonus Action options and Reaction have any real effect to those calculations?

[PhoenixPhyre]

PhoenixPhyre:

Would adding my suggested Bonus Action options and Reaction have any real effect to those calculations?

Dash/Disengage as a BA, no.

Hellish rebuke as a reaction would add X damage, which might push it over the top. You'd have to calibrate the X.

[Great Dragon]

Dash/Disengage as a BA, no.

Hellish rebuke as a reaction would add X damage, which might push it over the top. You'd have to calibrate the X.

Let me see:
10d10 damage = 60 Averaged?
Save for half.

Maybe an additional +45 HP overall?

(I'm only ok at Higher Math)

So, Balor
Move to PC #1 (Paladin) Fire Aura

Attack PC #1 with Sword.

Attack PC #2 (Rogue) with whip. Chance of restraining.

Bonus Action: Misty Step to PC #3 (Cleric) [Fire Aura] delibertly provoking AoO, if Cleric takes and hits, Hellish Rebuke as Reaction.

PC X goes. (Whoever is next in Initiative)

Legendary Action: (costs 2)
Teleport (+30 Hp damage?) and attack PC #4 (Wizard) with Sword.

PC Y goes.

Legendary Action:
Attack Wizard with Sword. (Unless they moved away)

All actions by Balor used this round, finish as normal.

Sound about right?

[darknite]

Ah, 'gotcha' Dming. Nice.

Only 'gotcha' because PCs don't have full info on an alpha predator in the Abyss? How many times have the PCs fought one of these juiced Balors? Have they met anyone who survived such an encounter and provided them insight on this ability? Is this sort of info something that's common knowledge? Probably not, because if I'm a Kick@$$ Balor I'm not broadcasting my weaknesses to my competitors, ie everyone in the Abyss. So if you want to pigeon hole me like I'm cackling and rubbing my hands together awaiting my poor players demise against my glorious creation, that's not cool. In my experience players get a bigger positive reaction when there's something they didn't expect and they overcome it and that's what I aim for.

[Kane0]

Hmm. Looking at the regular Balor I'd add some Lair and Legendary actions and a bit of spellcasting then round out their existing actions with some control effects and alternative damage types.
And of course buff up the numbers to match the desired CR.

[Malifice]

Add: Legendary resistances x 3.

Add: Legendary actions (3):

1) Teleport: The balor magically teleports, along with any Equipment it is wearing or carrying, up to 40 feet to an unoccupied space it can see.

2) Slash: The Balor makes 1 x Longsword attack.

3) Spellbreaker: Costs 2 actions. The Balor innately casts Dispel magic as a 5th level spell. Its casting ability score for this is Charisma (+6).

Change Whip attack to:

Whip: Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 30 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d6 + 8) slashing damage plus 10 (3d6) fire damage, and if the the target is no more than 1 size category larger than the Balor it must succeed on a DC 21 Strength saving throw or be restrained (Escape DC 20) and pulled up to 25 feet toward the balor. The Balor cant use its whip on a different target while its target is restrained in this manner.

Up its AC by 3 (to 22), increase its HP by 50 percent to 393, and increase proficiency bonus to +7 (attacks, skills, saves, save DC's increase by +1, already factored into Whip attack above).

Increase its Death Throes and Fire Aura dice to d8's.

CR 22.

[NatureKing]

Only 'gotcha' because PCs don't have full info on an alpha predator in the Abyss? How many times have the PCs fought one of these juiced Balors? Have they met anyone who survived such an encounter and provided them insight on this ability? Is this sort of info something that's common knowledge? Probably not, because if I'm a Kick@$$ Balor I'm not broadcasting my weaknesses to my competitors, ie everyone in the Abyss. So if you want to pigeon hole me like I'm cackling and rubbing my hands together awaiting my poor players demise against my glorious creation, that's not cool. In my experience players get a bigger positive reaction when there's something they didn't expect and they overcome it and that's what I aim for.

Not really. There is an expectation that things fall within norms. When you start with Legendary Reactions or Actions, giving them more than normal is typically something comes across as 'Gotcha'.

There are plenty of tools that operate within the normal, that normal being 3 Legendary Saves and Actions, that allow a creature to be dangerous. The moment you start wheeling out 'I specifically chose this creature to have higher than normal amounts of legendary resist because I know you players only wait until 3 Legendary saves are used up' is gotcha, in the same way as choosing only enemies with Int Save abilities against Int Save weak PCs is gotcha, or a monster having 10AC higher than normal, just because.

Its antagonistic and unnecessary.

[Malifice]

Not really. There is an expectation that things fall within norms. When you start with Legendary Reactions or Actions, giving them more than normal is typically something comes across as 'Gotcha'.

There are plenty of tools that operate within the normal, that normal being 3 Legendary Saves and Actions, that allow a creature to be dangerous. The moment you start wheeling out 'I specifically chose this creature to have higher than normal amounts of legendary resist because I know you players only wait until 3 Legendary saves are used up' is gotcha, in the same way as choosing only enemies with Int Save abilities against Int Save weak PCs is gotcha, or a monster having 10AC higher than normal, just because.

Its antagonistic and unnecessary.

I couldnt disagree more.

There examples already in core of creatures with more (or less) than 3 legendary actions/ saves already.

And in any event, you're presupposing an antagonistic DM and player relationship. The DM is there to create entertaining and fun challenges for his players.

If something is only busted based on the presumption of a 'Jerk DM' (or a toxic player/ DM relationship), then it's not really busted. An antagonistic DM or a toxic player relationship is its own seperate problem entirely, that no rule can fix.

[darknite]

I couldnt disagree more.

...

And in any event, you're presupposing an antagonistic DM and player relationship. The DM is there to create entertaining and fun challenges for his players.

...

This. Natureking seems to think that any manipulation of the game beyond the 'norms' is somehow harmful DM power gaming. In my opinion, NOTHING about D&D should be 'normal'. There should be surprises and mysteries and great evils to overcome. The DM's job is to open that door for the players and provide a respectful space where they can have those experiences.

[Droodicus]

I'd give the whip grapple plus drag so they can be pulled into the flame aura.
Legendary resistance creatures swing throws are one of the few things I'd consider rolling behind the screen if I had power game inclined players so they wouldn't know if it rolled the save or I spent the resistance, keep them guessing on when to drop big spells.

[Waazraath]

This. Natureking seems to think that any manipulation of the game beyond the 'norms' is somehow harmful DM power gaming. In my opinion, NOTHING about D&D should be 'normal'. There should be surprises and mysteries and great evils to overcome. The DM's job is to open that door for the players and provide a respectful space where they can have those experiences.

Amen. Even: the more players are aware of these norms, the more chance there is it will come at the expense of 'fun'.

[Zuras]

This. Natureking seems to think that any manipulation of the game beyond the 'norms' is somehow harmful DM power gaming. In my opinion, NOTHING about D&D should be 'normal'. There should be surprises and mysteries and great evils to overcome. The DM's job is to open that door for the players and provide a respectful space where they can have those experiences.


You clearly have a different idea of what people who keep playing D&D through Tiers 3 and 4 want than the players I see in my high level games.

In my experience, nothing annoys a player more than when the DM decides the powers they spent a year plus of play time acquiring suddenly don’t work because it would make the encounter too easy.

My feeling is if you don’t want to DM Tier 3 that’s fine, but ask us to make new PCs, don’t run a Tier 3 game where high level spells only work 1/4 of the time and the Fighter has to make a DC 17 Int save each round to participate in combat.

Functionally, every combat where players have no idea what is going on actually plays out the same: concentrate max damage on the BBEG, because you have no idea what exactly is going on, and you don’t want to waste actions doing something useless.

In my experience success/failure in scenarios relying on key unknown information depends heavily on the DM’s ability to communicate the situation, and *all* DMs vastly overrate our ability to convey hints to our players.

[darknite]

You clearly have a different idea of what people who keep playing D&D through Tiers 3 and 4 want than the players I see in my high level games.

In my experience, nothing annoys a player more than when the DM decides the powers they spent a year plus of play time acquiring suddenly don’t work because it would make the encounter too easy.

...

Who said their powers don't work? They work fine under certain circumstances against certain VERY powerful creatures. And yeah, sometimes things don't go as planned. The cool thing is that high level PCs have LOTS of options, most of which aren't used much because casting Meteor Swarm and calling it a day usually works just fine. Welcome to Tier 4.

BTW, I have four 5e 20th level PCs and love a challenge. I put the time in because I like impossible, high level challenges ... not nuke, rinse, repeat encounters. So you're right, maybe I am playing with a different group of people and have different expectations. No wrong fun, you know.

[Zuras]

Who said their powers don't work? They work fine under certain circumstances against certain VERY powerful creatures. And yeah, sometimes things don't go as planned. The cool thing is that high level PCs have LOTS of options, most of which aren't used much because casting Meteor Swarm and calling it a day usually works just fine. Welcome to Tier 4.

BTW, I have four 5e 20th level PCs and love a challenge. I put the time in because I like impossible, high level challenges ... not nuke, rinse, repeat encounters. So you're right, maybe I am playing with a different group of people and have different expectations. No wrong fun, you know.


Understood, I just want to note for general discussion that any monster ability that no-sells PC abilities with no obvious counter-play is much more likely to annoy your players.

It’s like PC deaths. The ones that result from obvious, understood consequences normally don’t leave lasting player ill-will. If you kill a PC with a dodgy rule interpretation, on the other hand, they may hold a grudge forever. Tomb of Horrors/Tomb of Annihilation style D&D is not for everyone.