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Rowanomicon
2007-10-06, 11:39 PM
Is it just me or does the Rogue need a Capstone Ability? I mean, Why take 20 levels in Rogue? It's be more worth it to take your 20th Level in Fighter to say nothing about PrCs. I mean, at least give them another Special Ability if you can't think of something creative.

Maybe this should be in homebrew...
Oh well, if I think of something to homebrew as a Rogue Capstone I'll put it there.

For now this is just a discussion thread.

Well, what are you waiting for? Discuss!

Quietus
2007-10-06, 11:54 PM
If you really feel the need to give them something, give them another Rogue special ability at level 20.

reorith
2007-10-07, 12:26 AM
a death attack like the class ability of the assassin could be pretty cool.

Solo
2007-10-07, 12:28 AM
Hide in Plain Sight?

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-07, 12:29 AM
I think HIPS and Death Attack should just be on the Rogue's special ability list.

namo
2007-10-07, 12:38 AM
Not Death Attack - it's the Assassin's trademark. HiPS is one of Shadowdancer's, but I think it would fit.

Mojo_Rat
2007-10-07, 12:45 AM
Theres an article on the wizards site called 'dead levels' which offers solutions to fill in classes perceived levels where hey get nothing. Most of the Benefits are Just minor things Almost fluff but It does make a suggestion for a rogue Capstone on the grounds that few people do a full 20 levels of rogue.

I think its something to do with traps disarming them in half the time r something similar.

goat
2007-10-07, 07:14 AM
I'm sure I've seen an expanded Rogue special ability list. Can't remember where though.

daggaz
2007-10-07, 11:48 AM
No offense, but if its going to be a twentieth level capstone, it should be something freaking good and worth it, not some junk fluff or lameo skill like improved trapsense or improved timesaver etc...

serow
2007-10-07, 09:12 PM
Rogue 20: You no longer need to roll for your sneak attack damage.

kemmotar
2007-10-07, 09:25 PM
Rogue 20: You no longer need to roll for your sneak attack damage.

That's no longer a rogue capstone ability...that's a broken PrC all in one level...doubt anyone would allow it since everybody would just play rogue...Then you get +60 damage with each hit. Then everybody would get heavy fortification armor and that's the end of the rogue capstone "no longer roll SA":smalltongue:

Person_Man
2007-10-07, 09:39 PM
Don't worry, it'll be fixed in 4th ed.

I'd probably just give them another special ability (which when combined with the Savvy Rogue feat, is quite potent). Anything else would probably overlap with an existing class or PrC.

Quietus
2007-10-07, 09:50 PM
Don't worry, it'll be fixed in 4th ed.

I'd probably just give them another special ability (which when combined with the Savvy Rogue feat, is quite potent). Anything else would probably overlap with an existing class or PrC.

There's an idea. Give'em Savvy Rogue.

goat
2007-10-08, 07:47 AM
There's an idea. Give'em Savvy Rogue.

But what if they already TOOK savvy rogue? Not everyone will want to wait that long to get it. I favour capstones being something unique.

Tokiko Mima
2007-10-08, 07:53 AM
How about a +5 inherent bonus for every skill on the Rogue class skill list as their level 20 Capstone? Rogues are the skill masters of D&D, more or less, and it would make them better than anyone else can possibly be with skills. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2007-10-08, 08:45 AM
Taking The Forgotten would be nice for rogues (although possibly underpowered as a capstone).

It is an ability from Werewolf originally; if you steal something, it'll make the previous owner forget he owned said item. It makes for an interesting approach to, say, dragon hoards.

trehek
2007-10-08, 09:35 AM
OMG that forgetting thing would make SoH stealing totally sureproof regardless of the victim rolling spot or not, as long as you manage to get the item:

"Hey! What did you just take from me?!"
"Just this. It's mine. It must've gotten stuck on your belt."
"Alright. I don't have a wand like that."

Ossian
2007-10-08, 09:48 AM
Why not simply add an extra "Skill Emphasis" slot? Or maybe a Skill Mastery - (Search, Disable Device, Decipher Script)? That would be ok for a high level rogue, who can stay calm, cool and collected (i.e. take 10) and search/disable the Nuclear-Bomb trap (which wire do I cut? red or blue?) even under a rain of frogs and with the Angel of Death knocking at door's room.

Ossian

Telonius
2007-10-08, 10:17 AM
Peerless Sneak Attack. Once a day, for Rogue Level/rounds, every attack you make is considered a sneak attack. This ability even affects creatures normally immune to sneak attack damage due to the target's race (ie incorporeal, construct, ooze, undead, etc.) All magical effects that normally negate sneak attack instead have a 50% chance of negating the sneak attack. Fortification armor (including any granted by race, such as Warforged) is reduced in effectiveness by 50%. (Heavy Fortification covers 50%, Moderate covers 25%, light is ineffective).

How's that for a capstone? :smallsmile:

Ganon11
2007-10-08, 10:23 AM
Peerless Sneak Attack. Once a day, for Rogue Level/rounds, every attack you make is considered a sneak attack. This ability even affects creatures normally immune to sneak attack damage due to the target's race (ie incorporeal, construct, ooze, undead, etc.) All magical effects that normally negate sneak attack instead have a 50% chance of negating the sneak attack. Fortification armor (including any granted by race, such as Warforged) is reduced in effectiveness by 50%. (Heavy Fortification covers 50%, Moderate covers 25%, light is ineffective).

How's that for a capstone? :smallsmile:

I'm by no means an expert in balancing things, but it seems a little overpowered. Like someone said earlier, this means you get a +10-60 dmg on every attack ever.

Maybe limit it somehow - 3 times a day, you can declare your next attack a sneak attack, even if you normally wouldn't be able to sneak attack at that time (for any reason - construct, undead, not flanking, etc.).

Quietus
2007-10-08, 10:27 AM
But what if they already TOOK savvy rogue? Not everyone will want to wait that long to get it. I favour capstones being something unique.

Don't let players take it, or let them pick a different feat.

Telonius
2007-10-08, 10:35 AM
I'm by no means an expert in balancing things, but it seems a little overpowered. Like someone said earlier, this means you get a +10-60 dmg on every attack ever.

Maybe limit it somehow - 3 times a day, you can declare your next attack a sneak attack, even if you normally wouldn't be able to sneak attack at that time (for any reason - construct, undead, not flanking, etc.).

Well, Rounds/level would usually mean for the duration of a single encounter - and there are usually four of those per day. At level 20, a Rogue will probably have already bought a widget of 3/day Gravestrike, a Ring of Blinking, etc. I don't think this is much more than what can already be achieved by magic items. But it's got enough of a "Wow!" factor that it would make that last Rogue level something worth taking.

Rowanomicon
2007-10-09, 12:49 AM
Peerless Sneak Attack and HIPS are both good ideas.

I thought about something to do with skills.

I also thought about a basic Luck thing like +x to all checks and rolls, but that's kinda bland.

Perhaps just the ability to SA/Crit opponents who are usually immune to such things. or the ability to bypass all DR despite normal requirements.

Funkyodor
2007-10-09, 02:14 AM
How about a choice?
- Can add +X (insert acceptable number here or tie it to an ability like INT or WIS etc) to Rogue class skills
- Can sneak attack enemies that have Uncanny Dodge as if they did not have this ability. (Barbarians or other Rogues beware)
- Can take 20 on Rogue skills once a day, the number of skills this can be applied to equals 1+INT.

So this benefits the combat build by allowing sneak attack on enemies with class levels, or a skill monkey build by improving all skills by a fixed amount, and adds another ability option allowing emergency skill use at an exceptionally high level.

Hawriel
2007-10-09, 05:31 AM
From the first time I looked at the Rogue class in 3rd ed. I said they should have a special rogue ability pick at 20. Thats all I really think it needs.

serow
2007-10-09, 09:13 AM
Don't rogues already get the ability to sneak everything with the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature?

Maybe their level 20 ability should be the ability to take 3 on all their sneak attack damage rolls.

I mean, it's not like it's such a great ability to have at level 20, compared to the 3 (or 2) levels of level 9 spells already available to primary casters. It's still negated by concealment and fortification and such stuff.

Telonius
2007-10-09, 09:27 AM
Don't rogues already get the ability to sneak everything with the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature?

Maybe their level 20 ability should be the ability to take 3 on all their sneak attack damage rolls.

I mean, it's not like it's such a great ability to have at level 20, compared to the 3 (or 2) levels of level 9 spells already available to primary casters. It's still negated by concealment and fortification and such stuff.

Haven't heard of Penetrating Strike before, what book has it?

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-09, 05:57 PM
I like the idea of a capstone that lets them use sneak attack on anything, regardless of type. That would make rogue 20 worthwhile, but it's not too overpowering (it doesn't make them stronger against everything -- just things they used to be horribly weak against).

Call it Mastery of Anatomy, Find Weakness or something.

"You can find and exploit points of weakness even in creatures normally immune to critical hits, such as undead and constructs, or those wearing fortification armor. Your sneak attack ability works normally against them, and you can score critical hits. Other effects, such as those from vorpal or wounding weapons or your Crippling Strike ability, also apply against targets that were magically protected against critical hits, but not against those that are naturally immune."

Something like that, anyway.

It would certainly cut down on the "lulz I just bought fortification armor, so now one of your defining class features is completely useless" cheese a little.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-09, 06:00 PM
Haven't heard of Penetrating Strike before, what book has it?

Wait, I missed that. Oops. :smallredface: Now I'm curious, too! What book? :smalltongue:

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-09, 06:00 PM
That's no longer a rogue capstone ability...that's a broken PrC all in one level...doubt anyone would allow it since everybody would just play rogue...Then you get +60 damage with each hit. Then everybody would get heavy fortification armor and that's the end of the rogue capstone "no longer roll SA":smalltongue:

Except it requires 20 levels of rogue.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-09, 06:03 PM
Wait, I missed that. Oops. :smallredface: Now I'm curious, too! What book? :smalltongue:

Dungeonscape. You trade in Trap Sense.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-09, 06:07 PM
Is it just me or does the Rogue need a Capstone Ability? It's not just you. The 20th level of Rogue is *actually useless.* There is no reason to ever take Rogue 20.

Quietus
2007-10-09, 06:07 PM
It's not just you. The 20th level of Rogue is *actually useless.* There is no reason to ever take Rogue 20.

Sure there is. To get Rogue 21.

kemmotar
2007-10-09, 07:03 PM
There is no reason to get 20 levels of rogue...maybe until 10 and 10 from a PrC, master thrower?Invisible blade?Assassin etc...maybe 5 levels of fighter or less to get some PrC relevant feats. If you make 20 levels rogue char you only get 7 feats make your options pretty scarce and you don't have that many options.

Rogue is a good class overall so it doesn't need a capstone. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, fighters don't got capstone abilities. Druids have abilities that scale by levels and therefore max out at level 20, but it's not a capstone ability...Monks have capstone abilities so i can kinda get the way they built the classes...weaker classes get capstones, stronger classes don't...besides rogues don't need a capstone...i've never seen a viable pure rogue build...Not getting a few levels of fighter and PrCs make you a pretty useless player..unless you're playing godly settings and you have 20 levels rogue along with the fighter and PrC levels...in which case you definitely wouldn't need a 20 level ability..Epic class levels in themselves aren't that much worth it anywayz...Epic PrCs...or even normal PrCs are much much more useful...even for casters(as long as you got full spellcasting progress)...

Person_Man
2007-10-09, 08:42 PM
Maybe:

Backstab: When you deal Sneak Attack damage by Flanking an opponent, you automatically bypass all damage reduction. If your enemy is forced to make a Save vs. Massive Damage as a result of this attack, add your Int or Dex bonus (whichever is higher) to the Save DC.

Chronos
2007-10-09, 08:47 PM
Uh, kemmotar, the reason that rogues need a capstone is precisely because there's currently no reason to go to Rogue 20. You're arguing cross-purpose, there.

Rowanomicon
2007-10-09, 09:20 PM
Chronos is right, there really is no reason to take level 20 of the Rogue class, and there should be.

That's an interesting idea Person_Man.

Caster's don't need a capstone because another caster level is the most powerful thing you could give them.

Oh well hopefully balance issues (including those of casters and PrCs) will be fixed in 4e.

Gralamin
2007-10-09, 10:04 PM
Perhaps an ambush feat variant in which a Rogue can give up sneak attack dice for different effects?

Rowanomicon
2007-10-09, 10:25 PM
That's an interesting idea, but what effects would it be worth trading in SA damage for?