OOTS #1167 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[TRH]

Minrah is still channeling Elan, I see.

[pendell]

Indeed. The action sequence continues!

I'm glad to see the dwarves in action -- it seemed for awhile there as if only the OOTS actually got to do anything. While the OOTS is still the cause of this intervention, it's nice to see the dwarves are able to take care of business themselves.

ETA: I was a bit confused at first. I would have thought anyone "violating dwarven law" would be instantly petrified, and plane shifting someone would seem to be such a violation. But then I looked and that only applies to the BLUE barrier. It appears the dwarves and vampires are duking it out in the space between the orange and blue barriers, where such shenanigans are permitted.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quebbster]

So glad Minrah wasn't done living.

[gbs5009]

Ouch. Hostile plane shift is always a nasty one.

I guess they didn't use an immediately fatal plane *just* to deny Thor one more soul. Petty.

[Rogan]

Poor guy who's name I did but catch...

[DaOldeWolf]

And as such, we say good bye to weird speaking dwarf guy. Kind of wish we learnt why he spoke so different or at least what class he is.

[Resileaf]

:elan: No! Not guy-whose-name-Minrah-didn't-catch! He was the fresh face this story needed, but his life was cut tragically short before he could be merchandised!

[hroþila]

I love Minrah.

[hamishspence]

So, what do you think that plane is? The layer Malbolge in the Nine Hells? Gehenna? Somewhere in Hades?

[Ruck]

I definitely wasn't refreshing the forums at work hoping for a new comic or anything.


ETA: I was a bit confused at first. I would have thought anyone "violating dwarven law" would be instantly petrified, and plane shifting someone would seem to be such a violation. But then I looked and that only applies to the BLUE barrier. It appears the dwarves and vampires are duking it out in the space between the orange and blue barriers, where such shenanigans are permitted.

I don't know if we'll find out-- indeed, I rather think it unlikely-- but I would like to know what exactly the thought process was that the designers of this chamber had for structuring it in such a way.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wherever that is, it does not seem like a fun place to be plane-shifted to. Hopefully he will soon be rescued.

[Fitzclowningham]

If Minrah and Durkon aren't in a relationship when all this is over, I'm going to be terribly disappointed.

[Ghosty]

Wherever that is, it does not seem like a fun place to be plane-shifted to. Hopefully he will soon be rescued.

I love it. It's the Evil opposite to the Mountain of Good that Roy was climbing in the LG Afterlife.

(I've been refreshing the page pretty furiously this morning too.)

[AutomatedTeller]

Minrah is awesome. And that guy is definitely bad!!

[Resileaf]

I don't know if we'll find out-- indeed, I rather think it unlikely-- but I would like to know what exactly the thought process was that the designers of this chamber had for structuring it in such a way.

As Gonthor theorized, it could be because the designers thought only outsiders would ever attack them, or that the weakness was left on purpose so that the people in charge might be able to manipulate things unseen.

[The MunchKING]

Oh I wonder if it's one of those punishment zones that keeps you alive so you CAN get hurt forever.

Like the rooms in Sorcerer or something.

[Robot Samurai]

I'm loving this, but wondering what Xykon is up to while all this vampy action is going on.

[Locnil]

Tbh I kinda got the impression "infinite pain slope" was just a metaphor, kinda, in the sense that it was just a slope that went on forever, so he would just keep bouncing off the side.

[ThatNickGuy]

Spiel Periwinkle, nooooo!

(See, because it's blue text. Spiel is another word for speak and periwinkle is a shade of blue!)

[drazen]

As Gonthor theorized, it could be because the designers thought only outsiders would ever attack them, or that the weakness was left on purpose so that the people in charge might be able to manipulate things unseen.

So, because plot, then?

The correct thing to do would seem to be for the orange and blue barriers to be nearly consecutive, so there's no room for fooling around.

[Book Wombat]

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. That must hurt a lot.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ah, Not-Thad, we hardly knew ye. You were too powerful, and in danger of overshadowing PCs, so narrative convenience required you to be nullified. You shall be missed.


t appears the dwarves and vampires are duking it out in the space between the orange and blue barriers, where such shenanigans are permitted.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

They are indeed. Given that they bring bodyguards to the meeting, the separation is probably designed to give a place for those bodyguards to do their job. With the added advantage that they would have had time to re-buff, while anyone coming in would just had all their magic dispelled.


So, because plot, then?

The correct thing to do would seem to be for the orange and blue barriers to be nearly consecutive, so there's no room for fooling around.

That assumes (at least) 1) that they were put in place at the same time; b) that they can be combined; iii) that they don't want their bodyguards given the extra layer of protection by forcing enemies to go through a magical barrier; and four) that it wasn't a compromise between factions, some of which feared different scenarios.

I find no reason to make all those assumptions.

Grey Wolf

[Great equalizer]

I warned you about slopes, bro.

[St Fan]

Minrah still need to work on her mid-battle banter against villains. The intent is here, but the execution still has lots or room for progress.

[chy03001]

Ouch...

Poor Durkon's Cousin's Brother-in-Law's Niece's Fiance (or DCBILNF?),Just thinking about that plane of existence makes me itchy.

[Fyraltari]

Never change Minrah.

Also vampire with sandy hair, I wouldn’t be so prodigal with my Plane Shift spells if I was on a mission to destroy the planet I am currently standing on had an at-will ability that makes me immune to the damage my foes can inflict and time was on my side. But that’s just me. You do you.

[Psyren]

Dammit! We were so close to finding out what that guy was!! :smallyuk:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

had an at-will ability that makes me immune to the damage my foes can inflict

I don't know about that. I would not be surprised if that blue sword of his cut smoke clouds as effectively as it cuts undead flesh.

Grey Wolf

[theinsulabot]

Man.

Blue sword guy didn’t exactly cover himself in glory there. Whiffed on what I guess was every attack of a full attack and then failed his savings throw and got tossed out of the fight.

[Leftour]

I'm loving this, but wondering what Xykon is up to while all this vampy action is going on.

Checking the next door is a reasonable guess.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know about that. I would not be that blue sword of his might cut smoke clouds as effectively as it cuts undead flesh.

Grey Wolf

Granted but it doesn’t seem to have a ranged attack while this room as a high roof.
Then again maybe she prepared the spell twice just for this kind of occasion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Granted but it doesn’t seem to have a ranged attack while this room as a high roof.

The thing about that kind of move is that it is effectively allowing yourself to be taken out of the fight. Right now, vampire is tanking (which regenerating creatures are good at, in general) and actively assisting the fight. If they float to the ceiling and stay there, that is one less foe for the invaders to contend with.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, because plot, then?

The correct thing to do would seem to be for the orange and blue barriers to be nearly consecutive, so there's no room for fooling around.

This is a self-aware parody universe. The room was probably constructed entirely for the purpose of having a dramatic battle to save the Council here.

[Worldsong]

Couldn't you have two blue barriers, one immediately in front of the orange barrier and one a bit further out? That way you'd be able to protect the council members while at the same time giving the bodyguards the opportunity to do their job.

[Jay R]

So, what do you think that plane is?

It appears to be an inclined plane.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Couldn't you have two blue barriers, one immediately in front of the orange barrier and one a bit further out? That way you'd be able to protect the council members while at the same time giving the bodyguards the opportunity to do their job.

That might be too expensive. Or would turn the bodyguards to stone if they did try to do their jobs. These barriers aren't intelligent, they don't make judgement. I'm assuming that when they say "it turns you to stone if you break dwarven law", it is not going to be capable of subtleties like "killing in defence of my employer". It might turn you to stone for attacking another dwarf, full stop.

But we'll see. We haven't really seen how the Blue barrier operates, so it is hard to understand what it's actual effects are and what triggers them. But if it is designed to force dwarves to talk to one another instead of resorting to violence, I would imagine that they do NOT want their bodyguards in it.

Grey Wolf

[thorr-kan]

Man.

Blue sword guy didn’t exactly cover himself in glory there. Whiffed on what I guess was every attack of a full attack and then failed his savings throw and got tossed out of the fight.
No, he got one hit in.

Panel 1, not cuts on vampire. Panel 3, one cut on vampire's face. Panel 11, crosshatch cut's from Minrah's attacks.

[Jasdoif]

So, what do you think that plane is? The layer Malbolge in the Nine Hells? Gehenna? Somewhere in Hades?I was looking through the plane descriptions in the DMG the other month, and I think it was one of the layers of Gehenna that was described with infinite 45-degree mountains where someone could fall endlessly/eternally/some-other-adverb-implying-"don't-even-try-measuring-the-time". Don't have access to books to double-check now, though....

[Snails]

Couldn't you have two blue barriers, one immediately in front of the orange barrier and one a bit further out? That way you'd be able to protect the council members while at the same time giving the bodyguards the opportunity to do their job.

As been discussed thoroughly in previous strip threads, yes, the configuration is clearly less than optimal, and even small changes might make a big difference.

My best guess is that the dwarves who designed the thing were not stupid, but improved the defenses incrementally in a manner that made enough sense at the time, but the end result seems to have unnecessary possible holes when looked as a larger system. Unfortunately the best "fixes" are not to change one small thing, but go back in time and start over with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.

[Frozenstep]

Minrah wasn't kidding when she had a hammer and knew how to swing it. She's been putting in great work with it. Has she even missed once with that thing?

[Fyraltari]

The thing about that kind of move is that it is effectively allowing yourself to be taken out of the fight. Right now, vampire is tanking (which regenerating creatures are good at, in general) and actively assisting the fight. If they float to the ceiling and stay there, that is one less foe for the invaders to contend with.

Grey Wolf

I mean, they don't need to fight. All they have to do is retreat behind the blue barrier. Taking the heroes out is more like a bonus at this point. Durkon* had history with them, and the Exaargh may want revenge on the Order for his humiliation on the Mechane but what is she getting out of this fight? Is sheer sadism worth blowing up the bridge you'll need to cross if you actually win? That's counter-intuitive.

[Ruck]

As Gonthor theorized, it could be because the designers thought only outsiders would ever attack them, or that the weakness was left on purpose so that the people in charge might be able to manipulate things unseen.

Yes, I remember the theorizing; I'd like to know definitely what the designers actually plotted or intended.

[zimmerwald1915]

Dammit! We were so close to finding out what that guy was!! :smallyuk:
Trying to figure that out is beside the point of the story and everyone should stop. Is probably the point that is being made by the strip.

[Cazero]

Come on, Giant. That's not how Sisyphus works and you probably know it.

[Resileaf]

Yes, I remember the theorizing; I'd like to know definitely what the designers actually plotted or intended.

I think the point is that it's not important what they plotted or intended. It's happened thousands of years ago and it's just going to make people say "Well they should have done..."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, they don't need to fight. All they have to do is retreat behind the blue barrier.

The blue barrier only stones you if you break dwarven law. We don't know what that means precisely, at this time. But if dwarven law allows non-harming cleric spells, letting them in could easily mean that their domination scheme breaks down to a couple of well-placed spells.

At this time, I see no reason to assume that retreating behind the blue barrier is a fool-proof move on their part.


I think the point is that it's not important what they plotted or intended. It's happened thousands of years ago and it's just going to make people say "Well they should have done..."

This, absolutely. We don't know what constraints they were under when they built it they way they did. Was their budget stretched to the limit? Did it get built in phases? Was there competing factions? We don't know, they story is not about to tell us, and we are free to make whatever assumptions we want. And as always, one should prioritise the assumptions that make the story make sense.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I think the point is that it's not important what they plotted or intended. It's happened thousands of years ago and it's just going to make people say "Well they should have done..."

Hence why I said "Indeed, I find it rather unlikely" we will find out.

[Psyren]

I was looking through the plane descriptions in the DMG the other month, and I think it was one of the layers of Gehenna that was described with infinite 45-degree mountains where someone could fall endlessly/eternally/some-other-adverb-implying-"don't-even-try-measuring-the-time". Don't have access to books to double-check now, though....

Good memory - Gehenna does indeed contain endless 45 degree angle slopes.


Trying to figure that out is beside the point of the story and everyone should stop. Is probably the point that is being made by the strip.

I mean sure, that's obviously the joke - yeeting the guy anticlimactically out of the story just as he's about to reveal his power source, or get into a fight that could yield valuable empirical data even if he died immediately.

Doesn't mean I can't be salty about it :smalltongue:

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Yes, I remember the theorizing; I'd like to know definitely what the designers actually plotted or intended.

I bet it was Odin's high priest at the time. Odin set up everything about this Hel thing. I wouldn't be surprised if he gave a prophecy about what the designs of the Council Of Clans barriers should be.

Also, surprising for "doesn't-have-a-name" to be 13th level. I bet Exarrgh is at least one spell level higher.

[Fyraltari]

The blue barrier only stones you if you break dwarven law. We don't know what that means precisely, at this time. But if dwarven law allows non-harming cleric spells, letting them in could easily mean that their domination scheme breaks down to a couple of well-placed spells.

At this time, I see no reason to assume that retreating behind the blue barrier is a fool-proof move on their part.

Grey Wolf

I had assumed misting protected against healing spells since Durkon didn't use any when Malack misted out. Was I wrong?

[zimmerwald1915]

Doesn't mean I can't be salty about it :smalltongue:
Yeah it does. If you're salty about it, you're reading the story wrong.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I had assumed misting protected against healing spells since Durkon didn't use any when Malack misted out. Was I wrong?

No idea, D20 SRD is blocked for me. Also not sure how that is relevant? I doubt that the blue energy swords run on healing energy?

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

That might be too expensive. Or would turn the bodyguards to stone if they did try to do their jobs. These barriers aren't intelligent, they don't make judgement. I'm assuming that when they say "it turns you to stone if you break dwarven law", it is not going to be capable of subtleties like "killing in defence of my employer". It might turn you to stone for attacking another dwarf, full stop.

But we'll see. We haven't really seen how the Blue barrier operates, so it is hard to understand what it's actual effects are and what triggers them. But if it is designed to force dwarves to talk to one another instead of resorting to violence, I would imagine that they do NOT want their bodyguards in it.

Grey Wolf

Wait, I thought that the blue barrier dispelled and the orange barrier petrified.

The idea was that with one blue barrier right in front of the orange barrier and another blue barrier a bit further out you'd have a space in which bodyguards can do the violence against invaders who just got their buffs removed while also adding another layer of defence against magic compulsion before the actual council area.

Although granted it is pretty likely that two blue barriers might just have been too expensive for them.

[kenlund]

Poor guy!
When I play D&D, I hate it when my character has been plane shifted away and misses a fight. I prefer to just be killed outright.

Wow, dying and coming back has been a huge confidence boost for Minrah!

Where's Hilgya btw? Having a cleric of her level in that fight would make a huge difference. She definitely seems a lot less committed since she killed Durkon.

[hamishspence]

Come on, Giant. That's not how Sisyphus works and you probably know it.

It is, however, how both Malbolge and Gehenna work, so...

[Fyraltari]

No idea, D20 SRD is blocked for me. Also not sure how that is relevant? I doubt that the blue energy swords run on healing energy?

Grey Wolf

I'm assuming the roofs stay level from Middle to Inner Chamber. It would certainly be novel architecture to have a lower roof at the center of your building than at the exterior.

EDIT: Anyway we know from the Orange Barrier that vampire dwarves count as dwarves as far as magic is concerned and I am confident dwarven laws forbid dwarves to it one another with a sword evn one made of --

[ottdmk]

My first thought was that the blue sword guy was an Incarnate or something similar. Could be a Soulborn, I suppose, but RAW Soulborns can't make weapons out of Incarnum (which I've always thought is kinda stupid.)

Loving the action stuff though. Double sap sneak attack, hee! :smallbiggrin:

[RyanW1019]

I was looking through the plane descriptions in the DMG the other month, and I think it was one of the layers of Gehenna that was described with infinite 45-degree mountains where someone could fall endlessly/eternally/some-other-adverb-implying-"don't-even-try-measuring-the-time". Don't have access to books to double-check now, though....

I think this is right. That's the one where the General (most powerful yugoloth) has the moving city that crawls on a bunch of mechanical legs.

[Mightymosy]

I am surprised by how often Plane Shift is used offensively in this comic. Is this intended by design? I assumed it would be more of a travel spell or defensive spell. How is real play experience: is offensive Plane Shift much of a thing?

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, surprising for "doesn't-have-a-name" to be 13th level. I bet Exarrgh is at least one spell level higher.
Clerics gain access to plane shift at 9th level, as it is a 5th-level spell for them.

[Worldsong]

I am surprised by how often Plane Shift is used offensively in this comic. Is this intended by design? I assumed it would be more of a travel spell or defensive spell. How is real play experience: is offensive Plane Shift much of a thing?

It's Will negated and affected by spell resistance, so it's probably got limited usage against most high level adversaries.

[Psyren]

Yeah it does. If you're salty about it, you're reading the story wrong.

Okay comic police, I'll save you some time and cuff myself now.


I had assumed misting protected against healing spells since Durkon didn't use any when Malack misted out. Was I wrong?

Cure spells and Heal are touch range. Malack strategically kept his distance (post-Heal) until he correctly ascertained that Durkon was pretty low on juice. (Well, Durkon found him, but he figured out he didn't have to retreat anymore once Durkon did nothing but swing.)


My first thought was that the blue sword guy was an Incarnate or something similar. Could be a Soulborn, I suppose, but RAW Soulborns can't make weapons out of Incarnum (which I've always thought is kinda stupid.)

It's not on their list, but they can get it with a feat (the lawful ones anyway.)

[KorvinStarmast]

It's Will negated and affected by spell resistance, so it's probably got limited usage against most high level adversaries. Notable recent Will save failures:

Hilgya versus Durkula.

IIRC, the OoTS ground fighting squad versus Nighcrawler.

Blue Horned guy versus sandy vamp.

@Jay R: love the inclined plane joke. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Yay Minrah!
(For those of you who are shipping Durkon and Minrah - I doubt it, so I'll wager my theoretical two silver pieces against.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Where's Hilgya btw? Having a cleric of her level in that fight would make a huge difference. She definitely seems a lot less committed since she killed Durkon.

Well, this is definitely not her fight. She barely knows what is going on, and has no interest in learning it. Her motivation for sticking around is muddled at best at this point (as was noted by Roy).


I'm assuming the roofs stay level from Middle to Inner Chamber. It would certainly be novel architecture to have a lower roof at the center of your building than at the exterior.

Again, I'm a bit lost as to how this is relevant? I suspect you and I are picturing two different things.


EDIT: Anyway we know from the Orange Barrier that vampire dwarves count as dwarves as far as magic is concerned and I am confident dwarven laws forbid dwarves to it one another with a sword evn one made of --

Sure, but it also stops a dwarf from biting another one in the neck. Retreating to the inner chamber means the vampires can't really attack anymore, and if the Good team can dispell their mind control en-mass, then their plan goes out the window (from their actions in the middle chamber, one can reasonably assume that mind-control is also grounds for petrification in the inner chamber).

Again, we aren't sure how the barrier works, but from the spirited fight, it seems they would rather Team Good didn't make it to the inner chamber, so giving up on the fight and either floating to the ceiling or retreating to the inner chamber are likely not viable alternatives.

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

Notable recent Will save failures:

Hilgya versus Durkula.

IIRC, the OoTS ground fighting squad versus Nighcrawler.

Blue Horned guy versus sandy vamp.

@Jay R: love the inclined plane joke. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Yay Minrah!
(For those of you who are shipping Durkon and Minrah - I doubt it, so I'll wager my theoretical two silver pieces against.)

...Fair point.

All right, Plane Shift are used constantly in all fights because apparently Will Saves are useless.

[Hekko]

I love Minrah.

Seriously. She's awesome. :)

[Lightning Lance]

This is just speculation, but with that blue text balloon, maybe they're a disguised southern pantheon god? Just wanted to throw that out there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is just speculation, but with that blue text balloon, maybe they're a disguised southern pantheon god? Just wanted to throw that out there.

A Southern God transforms themselves (badly) into a dwarf, goes outside of their territory to start dating a regular dwarf and happens to hear the call to join a battle against vampires through family grapevine?

Seems implausible.

Grey Wolf

[Psychronia]

So an infinite pain slope...I have questions.

For starters, it seems to imply that this wouldn't kill him, so while painful, do the falls not do damage?
For that matter, how is Hit Point damage calculated in a world of DnD? If you can sneeze too hard and burst an artery, then can you die of toe-stubbing?
And it's just an infinite roll down the slope, so there's no slowing down or grabbing anything? Are the slopes also really slick and do physics just work differently there?
Next, since it seems to be a fairly convenient way of getting rid of people and an otherwise infinite plane, you'd think there'd be more people rolling around in there. If the plane is so large that this isn't visible on-panel, then will they be able to locate sir Name-I-Didn't-Catch if he's constantly "moving" at a pretty quick pace?
Do you think there's anyone dedicated to shifting to that place once in a while to pick up anyone tossing about?


I'm sure these are all very important lore questions that the Giant will answer specifically in the coming pages. Definitely.

[understatement]

Um, great strip!

...???

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So an infinite pain slope...I have questions.

For starters, it seems to imply that this wouldn't kill him, so while painful, do the falls not do damage?
That is definitely what the name implies, yes.


For that matter, how is Hit Point damage calculated in a world of DnD?
Poorly. It is an abstraction of the sheer amount of damage one can take. A warrior has more not because he has "more health" but because they can take more hits to the face before passing out.


If you can sneeze too hard and burst an artery, then can you die of toe-stubbing?
Maybe.


And it's just an infinite roll down the slope, so there's no slowing down or grabbing anything?
Presumably.


Are the slopes also really slick and do physics just work differently there?
Why not both?


Next, since it seems to be a fairly convenient way of getting rid of people and an otherwise infinite plane, you'd think there'd be more people rolling around in there.
The thing with infinity, it's that even when very large finite amounts of items are involved, the distance between them will still be infinite.


If the plane is so large that this isn't visible on-panel, then will they be able to locate sir Name-I-Didn't-Catch if he's constantly "moving" at a pretty quick pace?
There are spells to locate people that'll help.


Do you think there's anyone dedicated to shifting to that place once in a while to pick up anyone tossing about?
I doubt it.


I'm sure these are all very important lore questions that the Giant will answer specifically in the coming pages. Definitely.
Indeed. And hopefully the unofficial answers above (answered in the same spirit as I read you asking them) will tide you over while you wait.

Grey Wolf

[tyckspoon]

It's Will negated and affected by spell resistance, so it's probably got limited usage against most high level adversaries.

It's a Will save-or-die (well, not really, but it works the same as far as players are concerned in any individual fight.) There's a niche for that - especially since unlike most Will save spells it is *not* Mind-Affecting, so you can use it on Mind-Blanked individuals or creature types that are naturally immune to Mind-Affecting - but it's a pretty narrow niche. If you're fighting something that you're pretty sure you can land a Will-save spell on, you could probably also Charm it or Dominate it or just knock it unconscious with a different spell, thus either converting a foe to an ally or at least giving you access to the body to interrogate, loot, or necromance. Plane Shift them and they're functionally lost to you - better hope they didn't have anything you needed to know or items you wanted to take from them!

..'course, from a cartooning perspective, Plane Shift is handy because it lends itself to jokes based on where the victim winds up, and from a storytelling perspective it allows you to have a character suffer a decisive but non-lethal defeat without having to worry about the implications of things like resurrection magic too much.

[thorr-kan]

A Southern God transforms themselves (badly) into a dwarf, goes outside of their territory to start dating a regular dwarf and happens to hear the call to join a battle against vampires through family grapevine?

Seems implausible.

Grey Wolf
You're right. The odds are million to one agai...

Wait a minute...

[Envyus]

The plane was Gehenna you can see other Infinite Mountains in the background.

[Themrys]

Minrah is awesome. And that guy is definitely bad!!

Actually, that's a woman. The short hair fooled me at first (shame on me, I actually hate gender stereotypes, but with stick figure faces it is rather hard to tell), but she has breasts and round hips.

I love Minrah. Her rambling in the last panel is totally understandable, she's angry and upset over guy-whose-name-she-didn't-catch (or should we call him Durkon's cousin's brother-in-law's niece's fiance?) getting planeshifted, it is hard to be eloquent in such a situation.

Regardless, she really hammered home her point to that vampire. Literally. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

Minrah fits in well with the OOTS.

[Ruck]

Interesting that The Vamp With No Name chose Gehenna; there was another perfectly good plane of infinite pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html) available for use!

[Anarion]

Ah, Minrah is great. Pity about the dwarf with the cool magic sword, but like Minrah said, they'll totally rescue him!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You're right. The odds are million to one agai...

Wait a minute...

No, it'd only be million-to-one if he was standing on one leg blindfolded while singing The Hedgehog Song.

No-one ever said "it's a 995,351 to 1 chance but it might just work".

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

A Southern God transforms themselves (badly) into a dwarf, goes outside of their territory to start dating a regular dwarf and happens to hear the call to join a battle against vampires through family grapevine?

Seems implausible.

Grey Wolf

You say that like poorly disguising oneself into a mortal to woo mortal women and joining fights on a whim weren’t time-honored godly traditions. And doing it on somebody else’s turf is half the fun really.

[Resileaf]

You say that like poorly disguising oneself into a mortal to woo mortal women and joining fights on a whim weren’t time-honored godly traditions. And doing it on somebody else’s turf is half the fun really.

Eastern Pantheon's been dead since forever though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You say that like poorly disguising oneself into a mortal to woo mortal women and joining fights on a whim weren’t time-honored godly traditions. And doing it on somebody else’s turf is half the fun really.

Fair, but on my defence, the guy who presumably made a habit of doing that was killed by the Snarl some countable billions of worlds ago. Somehow, Rooster doesn't quite fit the same bill.

ETA: Ninja'ed!

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

This is just speculation, but with that blue text balloon, maybe they're a disguised southern pantheon god? Just wanted to throw that out there.

Somehow I imagine a god wouldn't just be plane-shifted away, even if they were holding back most of what they could do to not get caught.

And also it would come completely out of nowhere.

[Worldsong]

Somehow I imagine a god wouldn't just be plane-shifted away, even if they were holding back most of what they could do to not get caught.

And also it would come completely out of nowhere.

If we're going for the long stretch Heimdall might have decided that he wouldn't let Hel get away with her rules lawyering and deception.

[Thanatosia]

It's a Will save-or-die (well, not really, but it works the same as far as players are concerned in any individual fight.) There's a niche for that - especially since unlike most Will save spells it is *not* Mind-Affecting, so you can use it on Mind-Blanked individuals or creature types that are naturally immune to Mind-Affecting - but it's a pretty narrow niche. If you're fighting something that you're pretty sure you can land a Will-save spell on, you could probably also Charm it or Dominate it or just knock it unconscious with a different spell, thus either converting a foe to an ally or at least giving you access to the body to interrogate, loot, or necromance. Plane Shift them and they're functionally lost to you - better hope they didn't have anything you needed to know or items you wanted to take from them!

..'course, from a cartooning perspective, Plane Shift is handy because it lends itself to jokes based on where the victim winds up, and from a storytelling perspective it allows you to have a character suffer a decisive but non-lethal defeat without having to worry about the implications of things like resurrection magic too much.
It's also just nice and flexable.

You could use a spell slot on a spell that is JUST a save or die.

Or you could use a spell slot that can be a save or die, or an escape route, or a travel method depending on circumstances.

[Jasdoif]

If we're going for the long stretch Heimdall might have decided that he wouldn't let Hel get away with her rules lawyering and deception....you're proposing that one of the Northern Gods is disguised as one of the Southern Gods in disguise, for some sort of false flag operation to cover not letting Hel win, then gets plane shifted away despite the sheer unlikelihood of that happening without allowing it to happen....

...and you go with Heimdall instead of, say, Iounn?

[tigerusthegreat]

It appears to be an inclined plane.

You're terrible

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry, Worldsong, somehow I missed this post of yours:


Wait, I thought that the blue barrier dispelled and the orange barrier petrified.

Orange: dispells any and all magic that attempts to cross it, and stops any non-dwarf from crossing it.

Blue: creates a zone within which "breaking the dwarven law" means you get turned to stone. (How that works out in practice is unknown. Can you complete the action? Is it reversible? How intelligent is it - does it allow for circumnstantial clauses like "in self-defence"?)


The idea was that with one blue barrier right in front of the orange barrier and another blue barrier a bit further out you'd have a space in which bodyguards can do the violence against invaders who just got their buffs removed while also adding another layer of defence against magic compulsion before the actual council area.

My problem with that idea is, as always, that it strikes me too much of dealing with this specific scenario. It is a flaw, yes, but an understandable one that when designing the system they thought that just one dispelling effect would be enough. After all, the bodygaurds are guarding the middle chamber. No-one should have the chance to place spells on everyone else in that chamber, not with all the bodyguards watching. That they didn't consider the danger of dwarven vampiric at-will smoke-assisted domination gaze is understandable. Heck, a much simpler solution would be to add "living" to the conditional of the orange barrier than duplicate it around the blue one.

Grey Wolf

[ericgrau]

For once I'd like someone powerful to randomly pass a save without it being a major class/build feature. But then I guess that would make the comic pretty dull. Maybe all the passed saves happen off panel.

[Hamsandlich]

Blade of Pure what?! What's it made of!?

[Resileaf]

How much you wanna bet that he was originally going to say what his blade was made of, but seeing all the speculation on the forums, Rich decided to troll everyone by having him get interrupted just before he could reveal it?

[Forikroder]

How much you wanna bet that he was originally going to say what his blade was made of, but seeing all the speculation on the forums, Rich decided to troll everyone by having him get interrupted just before he could reveal it?

maybe his blade was forged from pure nothingness that he carved off the corpse of a god of non-existance?

[Lheticus]

Welp, so much for that guy being a more featured character. At least in this arc. (I'll still hold out for a cutaway of him being rescued after about several ten thousand "ow"s.)

[Phhase]

and you are bad!

Thor bless ye, Minrah.

Nameless vampire brings up an interesting point, though. If planeshifting to another plane allows one to escape the end of the world, who to say there aren't refugees from previous universes hiding out there, somewhere?

Also, that is Gehenna, right?

[Jasdoif]

For once I'd like someone powerful to randomly pass a save without it being a major class/build feature. But then I guess that would make the comic pretty dull. Maybe all the passed saves happen off panel.It's happened a few times. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

[Forikroder]

and you are bad!

Thor bless ye, Minrah.

Nameless vampire brings up an interesting point, though. If planeshifting to another plane allows one to escape the end of the world, who to say there aren't refugees from previous universes hiding out there, somewhere?

Also, that is Gehenna, right?

theres a big time lag between end of one world and spawn of the next, plus the gods wipe the devas memories at least

and i think its just the Plane of Endless Slopes

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For once I'd like someone powerful to randomly pass a save without it being a major class/build feature.

Wish granted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html)


How much you wanna bet that he was originally going to say what his blade was made of, but seeing all the speculation on the forums, Rich decided to troll everyone by having him get interrupted just before he could reveal it?

I doubt he needed to read the forums to correctly guess we'd be speculating about it.


Nameless vampire
Is there any other kind? In OotS, I mean.


If planeshifting to another plane allows one to escape the end of the world, who to say there aren't refugees from previous universes hiding out there, somewhere?

Mortals tend to die of old age. Alternatively, not much to eat after the gods have unmade the universe and are waiting for the Snarl to calm down so they can form a new prison. If the gods are in danger of starving themselves, what chance does a mortal have?

Grey Wolf

[Souju]

For once I'd like someone powerful to randomly pass a save without it being a major class/build feature. But then I guess that would make the comic pretty dull. Maybe all the passed saves happen off panel.

From what I can tell, pretty much everyone hit with Harm has likely passed the save except for Nale. And both Destruction and Disintegrate have been resisted more than they've succeeded. Notably by the young black dragon, O-Chul, and Hinjo on separate semi-unrelated occasions (though it was Redcloak casting Destruction both times...). Also there was the "Legendary Cleric Battle" where they kept casting spells on each other and making saving throws until the High Priest of the Twelve Gods didn't do the math right and died.

In fact I'm pretty sure Disintegrate has only succeeded twice: once on the young black dragon, and once on Kubota. I guess the ancient black dragon's head and Nale's corpse would count too...but nale's corpse is an object at that point and the Ancient Black Dragon's head is...less than able to resist the spell.

But that actually goes more towards what you were saying: Just as randomly succeeding at saves would be really dull, Destruction and Disintegrate have drama-killing problems going for them.

Though it is rather amusing that, non-humanoids notwithstanding, the most common targets of these types of spells seem to be Linear Guild "members" (Qarr and Nale especially)

[Hekko]

If you can sneeze too hard and burst an artery, then can you die of toe-stubbing?

Toe-stubbing is a painful experience. Pain is exhausting. It is possible to die from exhaustion. So that's a yes from me.


Do you think there's anyone dedicated to shifting to that place once in a while to pick up anyone tossing about?

There were people defending the rifts from being sealed. Sure there are people who dedicate their lives to S&R of plane-shifted victims. Now how effective they would be is a different question.

[Jasdoif]

Nameless vampireIs there any other kind?Named vampires (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)?

[D.One]

Oh, Minrah, I just love your overexplanation :smallbiggrin:

On a side note, NoName McFangs is at least Cleric 9 to cast Plane Shift.


Mortals tend to die of old age. Alternatively, not much to eat after the gods have unmade the universe and are waiting for the Snarl to calm down so they can form a new prison. If the gods are in danger of starving themselves, what chance does a mortal have?

Someone able to cast Plane Shift to made such escape might be able to solve the food problem also (a Cleric could cast Create Food,a Wizard would have more trouble, but Magnificent Mansion, for example, comes with food). The aging problem, however would still exist, and such refugees would probably be no more in recent times.

That, however, creates an interesting plot about a small community of refugees from previous worlds that survived escaping with Plane Shift and using magic to create food and etc, and have to live a planar nomadic life because the gods hunt them to protect the secret (:xykon: "Take that to the fanfiction sites")

[Frozenstep]

For once I'd like someone powerful to randomly pass a save without it being a major class/build feature. But then I guess that would make the comic pretty dull. Maybe all the passed saves happen off panel.

I think V passed a reflex save against an acid breath here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

a Cleric could cast Create Food

A cleric would probably no longer have access to spells once the gods are in survival mode. Or might use the request to hunt them down.

A wizard, I'll grant you, can probably survive in their own pocket mansion for some time. Assuming that the threads of reality that magic is composed of is not part of what gets recycled by the gods in the next iteration.

Which it probably is, come to think of it. So my headcanon is that the gods don't need to know where you are to reuse your very existence to reform the prison.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

So my headcanon is that the gods don't need to know where you are to reuse your very existence to reform the prison

That's not quite how they describe it, since someone who is in another plane is expected to survive the world undoing event, so their threads doesn't get re-used.

I'll grant that the food producing effects are dubious, because we don't realy know how they interact with the undoing of the material world when the character is in another plane. (and yes, Clerics are screwed, because casting anything after the escape would put a giant mark on them for the gods to find and, at least, erase their memories)

I still like the idea of the adventures of the planar refugees :smallbiggrin:

[Silent Wrangler]

Sometimes it seems like that in OOTSverse, only Fighters get good Will saves.This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) kinda suggests it...

[Worldsong]

Sorry, Worldsong, somehow I missed this post of yours:



Orange: dispells any and all magic that attempts to cross it, and stops any non-dwarf from crossing it.

Blue: creates a zone within which "breaking the dwarven law" means you get turned to stone. (How that works out in practice is unknown. Can you complete the action? Is it reversible? How intelligent is it - does it allow for circumnstantial clauses like "in self-defence"?)



My problem with that idea is, as always, that it strikes me too much of dealing with this specific scenario. It is a flaw, yes, but an understandable one that when designing the system they thought that just one dispelling effect would be enough. After all, the bodygaurds are guarding the middle chamber. No-one should have the chance to place spells on everyone else in that chamber, not with all the bodyguards watching. That they didn't consider the danger of dwarven vampiric at-will smoke-assisted domination gaze is understandable. Heck, a much simpler solution would be to add "living" to the conditional of the orange barrier than duplicate it around the blue one.

Grey Wolf

Guess I got the colours mixed up.

And yeah it probably would be a bit too niche. Granted as a semi-engineer/designer the question "How could this possibly go wrong" is one I often ask myself and the moment I saw that they put quite some space between the two barriers my first reaction was "So what about magic users who manage to get past the first barrier and have the opportunity to cast some spells?"

[Emperor Time]

Minrah keeps staying awesome which is great. And glad the vampires don't have the upper hand anymore either.

[Forikroder]

there exists a plane of ranch dressing so if they can plane shift they could just pick one capable of supporting life

[gatemansgc]

It's happened a few times. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

i was literally just thinking of that comic!

[Vendanna]

How much you wanna bet that he was originally going to say what his blade was made of, but seeing all the speculation on the forums, Rich decided to troll everyone by having him get interrupted just before he could reveal it?

I think this was just one of those kickstarters Cameos rewards (that finally got into the comic) so he came in, and now it makes its exit. (rescue will be off panel probably)

Man, with all these orange and blue barriers questions, I think we will see someone getting stoned just so people differenciate between the two.

[Ruck]

I think this was just one of those kickstarters Cameos rewards (that finally got into the comic) so he came in, and now it makes its exit. (rescue will be off panel probably)

Man, with all these orange and blue barriers questions, I think we will see someone getting stoned just so people differenciate between the two.

Was there more than one Kickstarter cameo offered? Rich made it very clear that Veldrina was the Kickstarter cameo.

[Vendanna]

Was there more than one Kickstarter cameo offered? Rich made it very clear that Veldrina was the Kickstarter cameo.

dunno, that happened way too long ago, so I don't recall it anymore. but I think there was more than 1 (the difference is that Rich had to think on a way to put them on the story without making it look weird). anyone with the kickstarter could check on the offered rewards and tell us later.

[Seward]

It's a Will save-or-die (well, not really, but it works the same as far as players are concerned in any individual fight.) There's a niche for that - especially since unlike most Will save spells it is *not* Mind-Affecting, so you can use it on Mind-Blanked individuals or creature types that are naturally immune to Mind-Affecting - but it's a pretty narrow niche.

Much more commonly used were Dismissal (L4 ranged will save of die, with save advantage or penalty based on your relative caster level vs target hit dice), Banishment (L6 ranged area effect will save or die, no weird hit die limits or benefits) and <alignment> Word, which sent wrongly-aligned folks back to their home plane if they failed a save and tended to still mess them up if they made the save. Even Dispel Evil tended to get more use than Plane Shift offensively because it was a multi-use spell and the banishing effect (thouch wills save+SR or gone) was just one reason to prepare it.

Plane Shift is strictly for sending folks who BELONG to a plane somewhere else. That's the thing it does that no other option does. We primarily used it as a travel spell (or as a teleport-like OH **** escape spell if we're on some other plane for some reason). Using it offensively when it has the similar mechanical effect and level as, say, Slay Living or Harm was pretty unusual.

[Seward]

For once I'd like someone powerful to randomly pass a save without it being a major class/build feature. But then I guess that would make the comic pretty dull. Maybe all the passed saves happen off panel.

Yeah. I noticed long ago that saves were either automatic in OOTS or spells with saves pretty much always worked anyway (see Haley getting toasted by a maximized fireball - a spell with a low DC (3rd level vs 6th level slot) vs the bandit sorceress or V repeatedly sticking disintegrates on dragons, regardless of whether it made sense.

Take it from me who played over a decade of boht 3.5 and Pathifinder in all the levels the OOTS has shown (1-16 basically).

Lowish save folks like Belkar still make the save at least 1 in four times, and it is extraordinarily rare for a party of the Order's level to have almost everybody taken out by a single mass hold spell (although granted the DCs from that worm critter are pretty high). Also things like Hilgya failing a will save do happen. It's rare for a PC to get much better than a 1 in 4 chance to make their "good" save unless the opposition is much lower level. (monsters, because of how hit dice scale, tend to automatically make every save most of the time once you get past about level 12, that's another story, which is why save/xxx effects are far less desirable after you exit the first 10 levels - moving to area spells where at least SOMEBODY will fail the save or things like Wall of Force, where there is no save or mixed use spells like Holy Word where there's a no-save component and failed saves are just gravy).

In OOTS, save or XXX work better than in real life most of the time. Although it's fairly true about the Mighty Cleric Battle where they did panel after panel of touch Fort/Will save spells and "made the save". Clerics are unusual in tending to have both good base class saves in those categories backed by high attributes (wisdom/con) AND an investment in raising those attributes as thye level. Even so, they were probably swinging for more than a 5% failure chance on each attempt, it is just too hard to consistently outstrip growth in save DCs as a PC when you start the game at L1 usually at about 50/50 on weak saves and only 10% better on stronger saves.

Finally a Tarquin-like "Always saves" person can be done in 3.5, it usually involves massive multiclassing and a melee-type build (because multiclassing often benefits builds if you are careful about BAB and don't have to maintain caster level). Such characters also have reroll items on them (like a luck sword) to deal with the occasional rolling a "1".

Mild digression on how building an offensive spellcaster tends to work in 3.5 past early levels....

While it's a common belief that folks switch from direct damage to save/xxx spells as levels rise, the reality is that being decent at damage spells or save/xxx spells tend to require feats/gear focusing on one or the other, with a generalist sucking at both past level 10. The real power at higher levels for a generalist tends to be in battlefield control spells that "just work", buffing spells that supercharge the party or transport spells that do the equivalent of dropping Roy and Belkar next to the thing that needs to die just as both are ready to full attack. It is difficult but possible build a raw damage dealing arcanist that works all the way to L20 with the motto "dead is the best status condition" or focus on absurdly high save DC's and spell penetration if you like that route, but both require pretty deep system knowledge to pull it off, plus a few emergency spells for when you are up against something where that just won't work (and player skill to recognize that fact). The damage dealers in particular tend to burn spell slots like water and prefer sharp-short overkill fights and few encounters/day, often relying on some spells known/slots doing information gathering, transport and/or stealth to assure ambush-style wins with retreat/sleep plans all part of the operation (Scry and Fry being the generic example, although the "5 minute adventuring day" where you supercharge the party with buffs and transport it out when they wear off is another popular variant).

[Squire Doodad]

There were people defending the rifts from being sealed. Sure there are people who dedicate their lives to S&R of plane-shifted victims. Now how effective they would be is a different question.

There's a "life form readings" equivalent to scrying, right? You could just have them scry for "life-forms originating from a different plane" and go from there.

[JumboWheat01]

The twin dwarf rogues may be my favorite.

[Seward]

The twin dwarf rogues may be my favorite.

Yeah. Although they might not be twins. They might have some weird ability or use-magic-device based spell that lets one rogue split into two and become his own flank buddy. (a scroll of similicra would do it, although a permanent item with x/day would be a lot more cost effective).

It's a variant of something I did once, where I did a Pathfinder rogueish sneak-attack build with an animal companion (and feats enough to advance it and keep it alive into the id levels) as her own built-in flank buddy. As the companion faded in the mid-high levels the rogue had enough feats and gear to get sneak attacks other ways.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah. Although they might not be twins. They might have some weird ability or use-magic-device based spell that lets one rogue split into two and become his own flank buddy. (a scroll of similicra would do it, although a permanent item with x/day would be a lot more cost effective).

It's a variant of something I did once, where I did a Pathfinder rogueish sneak-attack build with an animal companion (and feats enough to advance it and keep it alive into the id levels) as her own built-in flank buddy. As the companion faded in the mid-high levels the rogue had enough feats and gear to get sneak attacks other ways.

They've been doing that for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) a long time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html), then.

[Seward]

Sometimes it seems like that in OOTSverse, only Fighters get good Will saves.This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) kinda suggests it...

Well the opposite actually. Durkon believes that basically nobody in OOTS can make a mid-level domination will save except him. Which implies that V, Belkar and Haley not only have weak class saves (true) but also have low wisdom and have not invested any cash or feats in shoring up their saving throws, and that Elan's very low wisdom is countering his class's high will saves plus again probably spending no cash for level-appropriate saving throw gear. Roy canonically has at least decent wisdom, probably has a feat or two invested and is the most likely to spend cash on stuff that helps saves (although we've seen only Belkar do that on camera).

Note that Belkar waiting until level 15ish to get a +3 protection vest is absurdly late (it's relatively cheap and affordable at half that level, although commonly you tend to get about a +1 prot cloak/vest per 3 levels for most characters, so he's buying a Level 9 item 6 levels late). So perhaps a lot of the Order's problem with saves is reluctance to spend cash shoring them up and/or a GM that never has any available to buy that are level-appropriate.

Characters actually played in wealth-by-level campaigns who pay normal attention to saves (buy class-appropriate stat enhancing items+cloak of protection +x) tend to end up like this.

Mage - middling saves in everything (good dex/con but low class save, low wisdom but good class save)

Rogue - great reflex, middling to low will/con (rogues have reasons to raise will (perception type rogue skills), con (hitpoints) and dex (to-hit, rogue skills) as they level but some rogues really dump wisdom or focus on int/charisma which don't help saves)

Cleric - great will/fort, suck reflex (good wis/con + class save, heavy armor encourages low dex and not improving it + bad class save)
Paladin - Great Fort, middling to good will, poor to middling reflex - depending on how much charisma vs wisdom they have

Heavy Infantry (eg armored fighter) - great fort, suck reflex/will (good con+class, little reason to start with or spend gear on improving dex/will)
Light Infantry (eg typical barbarian) - same but middling reflex due to dex investment.
Monk or Mutt Fighter - most likely to have great saves in all due to multiclassing or monk saves+attribute priorities. Mutt fighters sometimes have extremely weak will saves though if they multiclass a bunch of weak-will classes and never mix in any spellcasting classes.

The best and worst saves are the multiclassers. Depending on what they mix and where the +2 vs +0 falls.

[Elkad]

Plane Shift works on everyone. Well, other than people who cast Dimensional Anchor on themselves. It's the best option if you are capped at 5th level spells and need to target a Will save. Slay Living targets Fortitude, a poor choice vs most guys who'd like to melee you, and Death Ward is a pretty common buff.

Plus the utility uses mentioned upthread. If you don't use it on a bad guy, you can use it to transport yourself and your party instead.

[Grey Watcher]

Exit, pursuant to a stair.

(OK, it's a mountainside, not a stair, but I couldn't resist.)

[eilandesq]

Contrary to some comments above, I take "Infinite Pain" to mean "any creature who is not immune to falling damage and/or able to stop themselves is going to die eventually, no matter how many hit points they have," as they are going to continue accelerating to whatever terminal velocity is in that environment and repeatedly taking damage each time they bounce. Even a tarrasque is going to hit negative hit points pretty quickly under that kind of abuse, and the corpse will continue bouncing, counteracting any regeneration.

Oh well, at least they'll go to Thor rather than Hel.

[Seward]

They've been doing that for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html) a long time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html), then.

Good catch. I never noticed the two little identical boys Durkon carried in the memory storm.

[blunk]

Man, I hope that whole "rescuing Poochie" thing is a bluff.

[b_jonas]

In fact I'm pretty sure Disintegrate has only succeeded twice: once on the young black dragon, and once on Kubota. Vaarsuvius successfully disintegrated the Death Knight's skeletal horse steed in #437. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html)

[Ruck]

Man, I hope that whole "rescuing Poochie" thing is a bluff.

You want him to keep falling infinitely?

[blunk]

You want him to keep falling infinitely?Will that keep him out of the comic? Then yes.

[Ruck]

Will that keep him out of the comic? Then yes.

I think they can rescue him without taking up comic time. And he's family, they can't just leave him to fall forever.

[Amarsir]

So, because plot, then?

The correct thing to do would seem to be for the orange and blue barriers to be nearly consecutive, so there's no room for fooling around.

Yeah, that was the conclusion I came to when they were first presented. But it's not so in-your-face that it bothers me. A lot of stuff moves at the speed of plot.

[Fyraltari]

Good catch. I never noticed the two little identical boys Durkon carried in the memory storm.

You know, I think I might just make an index of all of Durkon's memories in order for these kind of things.

[Spanish_Paladin]

I love Minrah xD

[Fish]

Man, I hope that whole "rescuing Poochie" thing is a bluff.
I think it’s likely the Side Quest that will keep Durkon’s ma occupied after they stop the vampires. There’s got to be something preventing a horde of dwarven adventurers from accompanying them to the final showdown, hasn’t there?

[Rogar Demonblud]

And they'll need someone with access to Plane Shift, which basically means Hilgya.

Anyone else notice that Cousin Logann's Little Sister is apparently a sorceress?

[Gorm_the_DBA]

It appears to be an inclined plane.

Please Sir, do be accepting this award of all of the Internets.

[denthor]

I mean, they don't need to fight. All they have to do is retreat behind the blue barrier. Taking the heroes out is more like a bonus at this point. Durkon* had history with them, and the Exaargh may want revenge on the Order for his humiliation on the Mechane but what is she getting out of this fight? Is sheer sadism worth blowing up the bridge you'll need to cross if you actually win? That's counter-intuitive.

If they win? They are memory wiped at best. Dust, used for power gone in the middle. Destroyed by the snarl at worst. So who cares if you die fighting you only stay around another 24 hours or so.

If they lose this fight what happens in her realm to them?

[Rogar Demonblud]

They serve the new Queen of the Northern Pantheon, possibly for aeons.

[Dausuul]

So, what do you think that plane is? The layer Malbolge in the Nine Hells? Gehenna? Somewhere in Hades?

I'm gonna say Gehenna. Malbolge is an infinite slope, but it's also heavily fortified and built-up by the devil inhabitants. I don't see any sign of structures on the plane where Mystery Dwarf was sent; it's just mountains. And I don't offhand know of any other area in the Lower Planes with the "infinite mountain" thing going on... though I'm sure the Abyss has a layer for that. The Abyss has a layer for everything.

[deuterio12]

Vampire spawns rulez, failcrawler droolz.:smallcool:

Also of course the official guards of the super important place get roflstomped by the hastily put together militia.

[Peelee]

dunno, that happened way too long ago, so I don't recall it anymore. but I think there was more than 1 (the difference is that Rich had to think on a way to put them on the story without making it look weird). anyone with the kickstarter could check on the offered rewards and tell us later.

You mount be thinking of the PDF backers choice stories. That had three. There was only one cameo though.

[CriticalFailure]

Minrah continues to be the best.

[The MunchKING]

A Southern God transforms themselves (badly) into a dwarf, goes outside of their territory to start dating a regular dwarf and happens to hear the call to join a battle against vampires through family grapevine?

Seems implausible.

Grey Wolf

I've heard of Gods doing sillier stuff.

Granted it be more believable from the Eastern Pantheon. THOSE guys really liked coming down and slumming with the mortals. :smallbiggrin:


Eastern Pantheon's been dead since forever though.

Dang it, Totally ninjaed.


Nameless vampire brings up an interesting point, though. If planeshifting to another plane allows one to escape the end of the world, who to say there aren't refugees from previous universes hiding out there, somewhere?

If it's long enough GODS die off from lack of sustenance, I'm not really sure how the Vampires are planning on pulling it off. Not a lot of Outsiders have blood to drink,.



Someone able to cast Plane Shift to made such escape might be able to solve the food problem also (a Cleric could cast Create Food,a Wizard would have more trouble, but Magnificent Mansion, for example, comes with food). The aging problem, however would still exist, and such refugees would probably be no more in recent times.

That, however, creates an interesting plot about a small community of refugees from previous worlds that survived escaping with Plane Shift and using magic to create food and etc, and have to live a planar nomadic life because the gods hunt them to protect the secret (:xykon: "Take that to the fanfiction sites")

The problem is when the laws of reality get rewritten somewhere along the way and they lose all that power.



Monk or Mutt Fighter - most likely to have great saves in all due to multiclassing or monk saves+attribute priorities. Mutt fighters sometimes have extremely weak will saves though if they multiclass a bunch of weak-will classes and never mix in any spellcasting classes.

The best and worst saves are the multiclassers. Depending on what they mix and where the +2 vs +0 falls.

After seeing Miko do it, if you have the stats for it, Monk/Paladin has got to be pretty good for your saves. +3/+3/+3 from the first two levels of Monk and then + Cha to all saves when you hit Paladin 2.

[CriticalFailure]

V should have a good will save since it's her best save as a wizard. I would think That Durkon would have by far the highest will save in the Order, followed by V; it seems to be implied that Roy has a better will save that Elan due to their wisdom modifiers despite their classes but that might not be the case. Haley's will presumably be worse than Roy because their classes have the same base will save and she probably has a lower wisdom modifier than he does. If Elan's wisdom modifier is truly atrocious he could also be worse than her. Belkar has a class with a poor will save and a -1 wisdom modifier apparently so he probably has the worst will save. My guess would be that Elan, Haley, and Belkar are the half of the order that Durkon is talking about but I suppose it's hypothetically possible he was referring to Roy, Haley, and Belkar.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If it's long enough GODS die off from lack of sustenance, I'm not really sure how the Vampires are planning on pulling it off. Not a lot of Outsiders have blood to drink

With the help from Hel, who would have just got plenty of souls to sustain herself and them.

Grey Wolf

[Dausuul]

My guess would be that Elan, Haley, and Belkar are the half of the order that Durkon is talking about but I suppose it's hypothetically possible he was referring to Roy, Haley, and Belkar.
I'm quite certain he's talking about Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Roy hardly ever blows a Will save, and even when he does, he snaps out of it almost immediately - so fast that I suspect he isn't actually failing the save in the first place, just getting momentary swirly eyes for dramatic effect. The only time I can think of when Roy stayed under the influence for more than a few moments was Gerard's phantasm trap, which nailed Elan, Haley, and Belkar too.

We know for a fact that Roy has a solid Wisdom score (per the bureaucratic deva), hence a decent Will save despite being a fighter. He probably took a feat to boost it further, and maybe a magic item or two. Keeping control of his own mind is the sort of thing that would be a high priority for Roy. Haley would also value that, but she doesn't get Roy's bonus feats and her Wisdom is likely lower. Elan isn't the type to put that much thought into his level-up decisions, and Belkar has obviously optimized his build for DPR to the exclusion of all else. :)

[Squire Doodad]

With the help from Hel, who would have just got plenty of souls to sustain herself and them.

Grey Wolf

Divine Storage Facility (tm)- for preserving your personal Mythical Steed and Champion needs!

[dtilque]

there exists a plane of ranch dressing so if they can plane shift they could just pick one capable of supporting life

If the calendar page featuring a certain scoundrel is to be believed, Arcadia is known for having life-supporting drink available.....

[Squire Doodad]

If the calendar page featuring a certain scoundrel is to be believed, Arcadia is known for having life-supporting drink available.....

Arcadia? Is that where video game characters go when they die? No wonder we haven't seen it in-comic.

[deuterio12]

Oh, also reminder that Song of Freedom demands a 12th level bard.

And they specifically mention we meaning that Durkon's family is packing at least two level 12+ bards.

And yet the Durkon clan is supposed to be pretty low profile despite packing multiple 12+ people in their ranks, with Durkon's own mother which seems to be even higher level struggling to meet ends.

Further confirmation that high level characters are actually pretty common in Ootsverse.

[Peelee]

Oh, also reminder that Song of Freedom demands a 12th level bard.

And they specifically mention we meaning that Durkon's family is packing at least two level 12+ bards.

And yet the Durkon clan is supposed to be pretty low profile despite packing multiple 12+ people in their ranks, with Durkon's own mother which seems to be even higher level struggling to meet ends.

Further confirmation that high level characters are actually pretty common in Ootsverse.

Are you sure it's not two 6+ level bards, possibly preparing a fusion dance? They need the distraction so they don't become the obese version.

Next time, on Order of the Stick: "HYAAAAAAAAA..."

[Ruck]

Arcadia? Is that where video game characters go when they die? No wonder we haven't seen it in-comic.

Aww, now I really hope we get a gag cutaway to Arcadia at some point.

[Paleomancer]

Someone able to cast Plane Shift to made such escape might be able to solve the food problem also (a Cleric could cast Create Food,a Wizard would have more trouble, but Magnificent Mansion, for example, comes with food). The aging problem, however would still exist, and such refugees would probably be no more in recent times.

That, however, creates an interesting plot about a small community of refugees from previous worlds that survived escaping with Plane Shift and using magic to create food and etc, and have to live a planar nomadic life because the gods hunt them to protect the secret (:xykon: "Take that to the fanfiction sites")

In 3.5, there are also planes with the timeless quality, where aging and other physical changes and needs cease as long as you are on the plane. The Astral Plane is the only one I can find from the d20 3.5 SRD, and that one is present in some form in the comic (though whether it is timeless here is another matter). If the comic Astral Plane is anything like the standard, it is certainly plausible that people with access to Plane Shift or the like could have fled to the Astral Plane, either remaining indefinitely, or returning to a new world when it is made. Memory and sanity might be issues, though - can't be healthy being stuck with the same people in a place where time doesn't work the way your mind expects it, and who knows how reproduction would work. Of course, a lich or similar undead/immortal being might be able to survive on other planes with sufficient preparation, regardless of whether it is timeless or not.

As we have psionics, quintessence might be an (expensive) option for preserving living creatures on other planes, since the power description says in bulk it can protect a living creature from temporal wear and tear. Provided you have the means to wake them up later and protect them... and the psionic might to make a lot of quintessence! Or it could be a long lost tome detailing the end in the hope of throwing a light into the future, etc.

Not that we'll see either, of course, but both would make for a compelling side story nonetheless.

See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm (The Planes)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm (Quintessence)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Reading your line about people going mad, I wonder if we've just explained the Far Realms. It's the plane that hold the thoroughly insane leftovers of billions of previous worlds, each with their own basic rules.

[Paleomancer]

Reading your line about people going mad, I wonder if we've just explained the Far Realms. It's the plane that hold the thoroughly insane leftovers of billions of previous worlds, each with their own basic rules.

I rather like that idea! It would explain the weird physiology of such beings, as they were simply subject to physics and metaphysics that no longer exists in the prime realm, and that would take a toll on body, mind, and soul (assuming these are even the right words for said beings). It also adds a bit of tragedy to the denizens of the Far Realms - they have probably forgotten much of what they remembered and who they were, but nonetheless seek to return to a home that no longer exists, in a world which is not kind to their bodies.

I honestly don't think it's possible in the OOTS setting, but conceivably if outsiders could escape the mindwipe, they might seek exile in the vastness of the Astral Plane, only to end up trapped in the Far Realms where no God goes (the zone of thoughts that no one remembers). Thus, in addition to lower-order ex-mortal horrors... there are high-order eldritch horrors that were once powerful celestial, elemental, and infernal beings, who didn't fare any better than their mortal cohorts, and might develop colossal grudges against the Gods (and their unwitting followers), along with an army of eldritch minions to back it up.

[Rogar Demonblud]

We're well on our way to writing a setting expansion here, aren't we?

Let's see, next step is those Elder Evil abomination gods that are basically a Cthulhu cult with the numbers lightly filed.

Oh, I know! They're what's left of some of the new gods that arose on the earlier worlds. Seems they don't always starve to death. Some go mad themselves, and book it for the Far Realms, to subsist on the terror and adoration of the locals. And since they aren't worshiping the old god any more, the three pantheons don't know they are still around.

[Paleomancer]

We certainly have :smallbiggrin:

I would imagine that demigods would make a nice source of Far Realm deities, since no one takes a demigod serious in D&D :smallamused:, so no one notices when they go missing (or assumes they faded away). Given that the Far Realms is usually considered a significant threat (sometimes enough to get Celestial-Fiend alliances, even), how would they pose a threat to the pantheons (or something like the Snarl)? Using OOTS as a model, if a single mortal-become-deity can develop a new cosmic essence (i.e. quiddity) just by ascending independently of the main pantheons, it is entirely possible that the warped Far Realms, home to an unspeakable mix of long-lost survivors of dead worlds, and their long-defunct physical laws, could spawn forth any number of aberrant cosmic essences. But of course, it would do the main pantheons no good even if this is true, since the Far Realm makes Limbo seem stable and well-adjusted, and most Far Realms beings of any quasi-sanity probably blame the Gods for everything. There is the possibility of eventually spawning something as bad as, or worse than, a Snarl-type entity, but most Far Realms "deities" would likely be just as single-quiddity-dimensional and thus just as vulnerable.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Reading your line about people going mad, I wonder if we've just explained the Far Realms. It's the plane that hold the thoroughly insane leftovers of billions of previous worlds, each with their own basic rules.

that... ...oddly makes sense...

[Fish]

Nameless vampire brings up an interesting point, though. If planeshifting to another plane allows one to escape the end of the world, who to say there aren't refugees from previous universes hiding out there, somewhere?
I'll go you one further — we've already seen a refugee from a previous universe.

Hint: it's somebody who knows how to
ESCAPE.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I definitely thought nottgad would last longer

[gerryq]

Much more commonly used were Dismissal (L4 ranged will save of die, with save advantage or penalty based on your relative caster level vs target hit dice), Banishment (L6 ranged area effect will save or die, no weird hit die limits or benefits) and <alignment> Word, which sent wrongly-aligned folks back to their home plane if they failed a save and tended to still mess them up if they made the save. Even Dispel Evil tended to get more use than Plane Shift offensively because it was a multi-use spell and the banishing effect (thouch wills save+SR or gone) was just one reason to prepare it.

Plane Shift is strictly for sending folks who BELONG to a plane somewhere else. That's the thing it does that no other option does. We primarily used it as a travel spell (or as a teleport-like OH **** escape spell if we're on some other plane for some reason). Using it offensively when it has the similar mechanical effect and level as, say, Slay Living or Harm was pretty unusual.

And the most important disadvantage of all... you don't get to loot the corpse!

[Wizard_Lizard]

I'll go you one further — we've already seen a refugee from a previous universe.

Hint: it's somebody who knows how to
ESCAPE.

I am not sure how that works.... ...but... ...I feel weirdly inclined to believe you....

[borg286]

Since we are getting more details about this new helmeted otherworldly dwarf, can someone point me to the current discussion on the class ideas?

EDIT: It seems this person is also known as not-thad, or not!thad

[Thecommander236]

The infinite pain slope seems distinctly unpleasant.

[Particle_Man]

We're well on our way to writing a setting expansion here, aren't we?

Let's see, next step is those Elder Evil abomination gods that are basically a Cthulhu cult with the numbers lightly filed.

The Holey Brotherhood that tried to keep one or more rifts opened the first time the Snarl got restless on this world, perhaps? Maybe they were backed by far realms entities that hoped the next world would fit them better than this one?

[Moriel64]

I love Minrah.

Minrah totally rules!

[danielxcutter]

I'm gonna say Gehenna. Malbolge is an infinite slope, but it's also heavily fortified and built-up by the devil inhabitants. I don't see any sign of structures on the plane where Mystery Dwarf was sent; it's just mountains. And I don't offhand know of any other area in the Lower Planes with the "infinite mountain" thing going on... though I'm sure the Abyss has a layer for that. The Abyss has a layer for everything.

Also, IIRC Malbolge got totally revamped when Asmodeus' daughter took over - Fiendish Codex 2, Tyrants of the Nine Hells.

[hamishspence]

Also, IIRC Malbolge got totally revamped when Asmodeus' daughter took over - Fiendish Codex 2, Tyrants of the Nine Hells.

True - though The Giant might have been using the BoVD version. The presence of other mountains, very faint, in the distance, does tip it toward Gehenna for me.

[Riftwolf]

Maybe Not-Thad can manifest a blue fire toboggan, or something...

[D.One]

And they'll need someone with access to Plane Shift, which basically means Hilgya.

Or, maybe, the 13th level Cleric of Thor who happens to be part of NotThad's extended family? Also known as Durkon.



True - though The Giant might have been using the BoVD version. The presence of other mountains, very faint, in the distance, does tip it toward Gehenna for me.

It's obviously the Demiplane of Sysiphoria. Expect huge rolling stones in the botton.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's obviously the Demiplane of Sysiphoria. Expect huge rolling stones in the botton.

An infinite slope has no bottom.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Expect huge rolling stones further on down?

[InvisibleBison]

An infinite slope has no bottom.

Grey Wolf

Not necessarily. It might have no top instead.

[Peelee]

Not necessarily. It might have no top instead.

We see at least one top.

[Fyraltari]

Expect huge rolling stones further on down?

‘‘Well, at least the music is nice.’’

-Durkon’s cousin’s brother-in-law’s niece’s fiancé, probably

[Peelee]

‘‘Well, at least the music is nice.’’

-Durkon’s cousin’s brother-in-law’s niece’s fiancé, probably

Easy to song to, too.

♫"I see an infinite slope and I want to paint it black."♪

[Frozenstep]

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the fact that the barriers do not block planar travel out of the room is going to be important in any way. It was probably just be a quick justification to allow not-thad to get pushed out of the story, but I'm also getting a sense that the fact it was called out so explicitly in front of the characters means they'll be able to use that fact somehow.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not sure how it could matter. The heroes aren't going anywhere, and it's probably easier to just smoke the vamps. I guess Durkon could ship Gontor to the Positive Energy Plane; depicting that might be a challenge Rich would enjoy.

[Worldsong]

Not sure how it could matter. The heroes aren't going anywhere, and it's probably easier to just smoke the vamps. I guess Durkon could ship Gontor to the Positive Energy Plane; depicting that might be a challenge Rich would enjoy.

My God... It's full of Elans!

[Shoelessgdowar]

Exit, pursuant to a stair.

(OK, it's a mountainside, not a stair, but I couldn't resist.)

That would make it a stair attack, and could lead to stairing contests. Forget Dwarf Throwing, Stairing Contests are on the decline due to repeated steps being taken to ramp down on them.


Contrary to some comments above, I take "Infinite Pain" to mean "any creature who is not immune to falling damage and/or able to stop themselves is going to die eventually, no matter how many hit points they have," as they are going to continue accelerating to whatever terminal velocity is in that environment and repeatedly taking damage each time they bounce. Even a tarrasque is going to hit negative hit points pretty quickly under that kind of abuse, and the corpse will continue bouncing, counteracting any regeneration.

Oh well, at least they'll go to Thor rather than Hel.

Will they? Couldn't Hel argue that the death was do to accidental falling damage and not due to combat? By being Plane Shifted out of Combat, Disurkcous (Short of Distant Durkon Cousin, which 'he', at least I'm pretty sure they're a He, technically is in some fashion) is literally outside of combat.


So, because plot, then?

The correct thing to do would seem to be for the orange and blue barriers to be nearly consecutive, so there's no room for fooling around.

See the previous comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1166.html) for exactly why dwarves would want a chamber where combat could occur with the bodyguards. The separation of the fields is a feature not a flaw.

[Worldsong]

Will they? Couldn't Hel argue that the death was do to accidental falling damage and not due to combat? By being Plane Shifted out of Combat, Disurkcous (Short of Distant Durkon Cousin, which 'he', at least I'm pretty sure they're a He, technically is in some fashion) is literally outside of combat.

Hel might certainly try but if Thor can claim an honourable death for a dwarf who died from a disease inflicted during combat I think he can safeguard the soul of a dwarf who effectively got thrown off a mountain in a fight.

[tyckspoon]

Hel might certainly try but if Thor can claim an honourable death for a dwarf who died from a disease inflicted during combat I think he can safeguard the soul of a dwarf who effectively got thrown off a mountain in a fight.

Dwarves can die honorably in combat with a tree. Blue Warrior Dwarf clearly died in honorable combat, attacking an evil mountain (he got sent to one of the lower planes, it's literally an Evil mountain) with his head.

[Seward]

V should have a good will save since it's her best save as a wizard.

As noted above, that's not how wizards end up at level 15.

Typically they have no wisdom bonus and don't buy any wisdom items but do invest in con/dex items and decent con/dex to begin with. So most wizards end up like this:

L15 (assuming elf wizard with normal wealth-per-level expenditures and no feats spent. V's saves may be worse than this.)

Fort +3 for class, +2ish for Con (10 base +4 belt of con) +5 for cloak of protection = +10
Refl +3 for class, +5ish for dex (16 base +4 gloves of dex) +5 for cloak of protection = +13
Will +9 for class +0 for wisdom +5 for cloak of protection = +14

Ie Refl and Will are about equal, with Fort falling a bit behind. (human wizards often have all 3 saves about the same for most of their career. It is not at all uncommon for wizards to dump wisdom and invest in constitution (wisdom 8 con 14), which would get you about a +12-13 in all 3 saves)

+10 isn't at all adequate for L15 DC's, +13-14 will save about half the time, 2/3 if the enemy is part of a larger group (and thus lower level). V may well not have a cloak of protection at all, or it might be worse (+2ish) given that the only prot item we've seen anybody buy is Belkar's +3 vest, purchased less than a week ago, and notable enough to get seen on camera. If V only has a +2 cloak, V only gets a +12 will save and will fail a LOT.

Note by contrast Roy, while getting only +3 for class likely has a wisdom bonus of +2-3, and probably has iron will feat (+2) as well as level-appropriate protection item (Ie actually has a cloak+5) for about the same save as V in spite of his class. Enough to make saves sometimes (as we saw vs Durkula) but it's a crapshoot. This is why V mind blanked V and Roy - their saves aren't up to the job but immunity means you don't have to roll the dice (and unlike the prot evil Wand, gets the benefit of V's high caster level making it much harder to dispel)

By contrast, Durkon would have +9 for class, probably about +5-7 for wisdom, dwarf +2 vs spells/spell like, ie +16-18 even without a protection item, and even with a cheap +2 cloak he's rocking a +20 will save. That'll save against trash monsters 95% of the time and level appropriate enemies about 80% of the time. So Durkon can be forgiven for thinking everybody else in the party, V included, has a squishy brain.

[CriticalFailure]

I know Durkon's will save will be way, way higher than the rest of the party because cleric, but in the context of Durkon saying half the party is weak willed I think he's definitely referring to Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Durkon being way better than the rest of them doesn't mean there isn't an appreciable gap between Roy/V and Haley/Elan/Belkar. I wasn't thinking much about items and I haven't played much at high level but that makes sense and it seems pretty likely Roy is supposed to have a higher will save than V. No one is arguing that the cleric doesn't have a will save significantly better than the rest in a part without any other classes relying on wisdom.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I know Durkon's will save will be way, way higher than the rest of the party because cleric, but in the context of Durkon saying half the party is weak willed I think he's definitely referring to Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Durkon being way better than the rest of them doesn't mean there isn't an appreciable gap between Roy/V and Haley/Elan/Belkar. I wasn't thinking much about items and I haven't played much at high level but that makes sense and it seems pretty likely Roy is supposed to have a higher will save than V. No one is arguing that the cleric doesn't have a will save significantly better than the rest in a part without any other classes relying on wisdom.

What do you mean? Belkar has clearly got the highest wisdom!

[Ruck]

What do you mean? Belkar has clearly got the highest wisdom!

Belkar may have in fact had the highest [increase in wisdom as a percentage of previous] wisdom this book.

[Particle_Man]

That would make it a stair attack, and could lead to stairing contests. Forget Dwarf Throwing, Stairing Contests are on the decline due to repeated steps being taken to ramp down on them.

I bow to you, and will refrain from railing against the barrage of puns. :smallcool:

[Just Call Me J]

That would make it a stair attack, and could lead to stairing contests. Forget Dwarf Throwing, Stairing Contests are on the decline due to repeated steps being taken to ramp down on them.
This is a thing of beauty

[Rogar Demonblud]

So's an oncoming duststorm, until it gouges your eyes.

[Kelenius]

"The rest of you are going to die when the other gods destroy the world, while he'll at least roll forever on an infinite pain-slope."

Interesting, so the vampire is saying that people who are on the outer planes will not be destroyed along with the world...

[Fyraltari]

"The rest of you are going to die when the other gods destroy the world, while he'll at least roll forever on an infinite pain-slope."

Interesting, so the vampire is saying that people who are on the outer planes will not be destroyed along with the world...

Well yes. It’s been established that the Snarl cannot leave the Prime Material Plane, which is how the Gods have escaped it still and why the Outsiders need to have their memories of the previous worlds wiped. It is also how the vampires plan to survive this world.

[Resileaf]

"The rest of you are going to die when the other gods destroy the world, while he'll at least roll forever on an infinite pain-slope."

Interesting, so the vampire is saying that people who are on the outer planes will not be destroyed along with the world...

Well obviously, if the outer planes could get destroyed by the Snarl, the gods would have nowhere safe to retreat to between worlds (which is incidentally the Dark One's plan).

[eaglewingz]

...will refrain from railing against the barrage of puns.

Yes, if we descend to that level we will be in for a hard landing.

[Fish]

I bow to you, and will refrain from railing against the barrage of puns. :smallcool:
Clearly, there is no railing.

[Kelenius]

Well yes. It’s been established that the Snarl cannot leave the Prime Material Plane, which is how the Gods have escaped it still and why the Outsiders need to have their memories of the previous worlds wiped. It is also how the vampires plan to survive this world.

As far as I know, that was only discussed, not established.

[Kalirren]

Where has it been established that the Snarl can't -leave- the Prime Material? I thought the gates are for keeping the Snarl out?

You're saying they're for keeping the Snarl in?

[Jasdoif]

Where has it been established that the Snarl can't -leave- the Prime Material? I thought the gates are for keeping the Snarl out?

You're saying they're for keeping the Snarl in?Arguable. The Snarl is held inside a demiplane that was formed when the world was created (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), so I think it's a question of whether that demiplane can be considered "inside" the Material Plane (like how a sandwich inside a plastic bag inside a refrigerator, is a sandwich inside that refrigerator).

Whether the Snarl can/could/did get itself onto other planes from the Material Plane is...entirely conjectural, unless I've forgotten something.

[Fyraltari]

Arguable. The Snarl is held inside a demiplane that was formed when the world was created (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), so I think it's a question of whether that demiplane can be considered "inside" the Material Plane (like how a sandwich inside a plastic bag inside a refrigerator, is a sandwich inside that refrigerator).

Whether the Snarl can/could/did get itself onto other planes from the Material Plane is...entirely conjectural, unless I've forgotten something.

Wether or not it can, it has never done so on any of its escapes. Thor said that they only saved ‘‘some’’ of the previous worlds and he and the other major gods have always escaped its rampages. It never reached their Planes.

The logical conclusion based on the available data is that it cannot do so.

Hence why the Dark One’s plan hinges on moving it* there.

*Well moving the Rifts, at least.

[Jasdoif]

Wether or not it can, it has never done so on any of its escapes. Thor said that they only saved ‘‘some’’ of the previous worlds and he and the other major gods have always escaped its rampages. It never reached their Planes.

The logical conclusion based on the available data is that it cannot do so.See what I mean? "The Snarl never killed all of the gods on their infinite planes, so it's incapable of reaching their planes" is entirely conjectural.

[Kelenius]

However, there seem to be no characters from the previous world around. Someone like Xykon could easily last through the world destruction. So maybe it can reach into these planes and the gods are hiding somewhere else entirely, or maybe the gods wipe all the outer planes clean of all creatures when they wipe memories of the outsiders as well...

And now a vampire is claiming otherwise. Curious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

However, there seem to be no characters from the previous world around. Someone like Xykon could easily last through the world destruction. So maybe it can reach into these planes and the gods are hiding somewhere else entirely, or maybe the gods wipe all the outer planes clean of all creatures when they wipe memories of the outsiders as well...

And now a vampire is claiming otherwise. Curious.

How is it curious? The vampires believe that Hel will allow them to ride out the interorbis period with her. There is no particular reason to think she is lying, but lying or not, the difference hinges on requiring a god's assistance - and maybe requiring that god to be head honcho of the pantheon to boot. Xykon can't ride out the end of the world because the gods would object. Hel's plan involves an unassailable position where she can (and intends to) run roughshod over the desires of the other gods, and thus if she wants to save a handful of high priests for the next world, she might just be capable of pulling it off. Or she can't, and she knows this, and has lied to the vampires to get them on board. But either way, circumstances are particularly unique, even by billions-of-worlds standard.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Even all that aside, Maruts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm) exist.

[Fyraltari]

See what I mean? "The Snarl never killed all of the gods on their infinite planes, so it's incapable of reaching their planes" is entirely conjectural.

The second part maybe conjectural but the first is demonstrably not, and from the point of view of everyone else involved the difference between ‘‘the Snarl cannot’’ and ‘‘The Snarl will not’’ is purely academical.

[Jasdoif]

See what I mean? "The Snarl never killed all of the gods on their infinite planes, so it's incapable of reaching their planes" is entirely conjectural.The second part maybe conjectural but the first is demonstrably not, and from the point of view of everyone else involved the difference between ‘‘the Snarl cannot’’ and ‘‘The Snarl will not’’ is purely academical."The Snarl will not" is, again, entirely conjectural; what's there is "The Snarl has not".

And "The Snarl has not" and "the Snarl cannot" are significantly different, in that only the latter necessarily leads to "the Snarl will not".

[Fyraltari]

"The Snarl will not" is, again, entirely conjectural; what's there is "The Snarl has not".

And "The Snarl has not" and "the Snarl cannot" are significantly different, in that only the latter necessarily leads to "the Snarl will not".

In the same manner that the sun having consistently raised each morning for 5 billion years does not necessarily leads to it raising tomorrow morning, yes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

5 billion years

OK, I appreciate it's rounded to a single significant figure, but it feels somewhat wrong to add ~half a billion years to the age of the Earth, somehow.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

In the same manner that the sun having consistently raised each morning for 5 billion years does not necessarily leads to it raising tomorrow morning, yes.And in the same manner that not having starved to death does not necessarily lead to being immune to starving to death, yes.

We know a great deal more about the sun and starvation and death than we do about the Snarl, of course...which is kind of my point, making assumptions with so little information about what can't happen, is what leads to being caught completely unprepared when it does happen.

[Fyraltari]

OK, I appreciate it's rounded to a single significant figure, but it feels somewhat wrong to add ~half a billion years to the age of the Earth, somehow.

Grey Wolf

1.43 x 1017 ± 1015 seconds.

EDIT:

And in the same manner that not having starved to death does not necessarily lead to being immune to starving to death, yes.

We know a great deal more about the sun and starvation and death than we do about the Snarl, of course...which is kind of my point, making assumptions with so little information about what can't happen, is what leads to being caught completely unprepared when it does happen.

Except that when a poorly understood phenomenon happens again and again in the very same manner, assuming it will keep doing so is the rational way to do it. Medieval people didn't have information about the workings of lightning but when the thunderstorms came the one standing beneath the highest tree around wasn't the one behaving intelligently.

All I'm saying is that Nameless vampire is perfectly justified in her assumption that the Outer Planes will be safe from the Snarl should they succeed.

EDIT2: Wait, no. Their plan does not even involve the Snarl at all. They're trying to have the Gods destroy the the World. Of course they aren't going to destroy the other planes too.

[Jasdoif]

All I'm saying is that Nameless vampire is perfectly justified in her assumption that the Outer Planes will be safe from the Snarl should they succeed.And all I'm saying is that we, the readers, don't know one way or the other if the Snarl is capable of affecting the Outer Planes with its own abilities. These two are not exclusive, especially since the gods' trapping of the Snarl is a big constraint on the actions it can take, and thus the actions that could be observed.

[CN the Logos]

However, there seem to be no characters from the previous world around. Someone like Xykon could easily last through the world destruction. So maybe it can reach into these planes and the gods are hiding somewhere else entirely, or maybe the gods wipe all the outer planes clean of all creatures when they wipe memories of the outsiders as well...

And now a vampire is claiming otherwise. Curious.

Multiple versions of D&D note that liches don't actually last forever, even if no adventurers come along to enforce the "undeath always ends" trope. They get really bored or lose the ability to cope with how the universe keeps changing, spend longer and longer stretches of time hibernating, and eventually degenerate into a barely sapient hazard for PCs exploring really old tombs. Granted that's one of two explanations for what a demilich is (the other being that eventually liches become so awesome that they no longer need a body), but it would be entirely reasonable for the Giant to say that there are no Xykon equivalents from previous worlds left because they don't have the willpower to actually keep going FOREVER.

[eilandesq]

Hel might certainly try but if Thor can claim an honourable death for a dwarf who died from a disease inflicted during combat I think he can safeguard the soul of a dwarf who effectively got thrown off a mountain in a fight.

Yep. To use another example, the half ogre who accidentally backed off over a cliff while fighting Roy with his cheesy spiked chain style in #216 clearly died in honorable combat--it was just cheesy and stupid honorable combat.

[Rrmcklin]

Yep. To use another example, the half ogre who accidentally backed off over a cliff while fighting Roy with his cheesy spiked chain style in #216 clearly died in honorable combat--it was just cheesy and stupid honorable combat.

Thor arguing something, and winning the argument are not the same thing. We have no idea how they arbitrate these cases, but assuming any flimsy excuse Thor comes up with is automatically good enough doesn't strike me as a good idea.

[Fyraltari]

And all I'm saying is that we, the readers, don't know one way or the other if the Snarl is capable of affecting the Outer Planes with its own abilities. These two are not exclusive, especially since the gods' trapping of the Snarl is a big constraint on the actions it can take, and thus the actions that could be observed.

But it has escaped containment several times.

[Jasdoif]

But it has escaped containment several times.Never well to avoid being recaptured, apparently. Almost like the gods are invested in keeping it contained for some reason.

[eilandesq]

Thor arguing something, and winning the argument are not the same thing. We have no idea how they arbitrate these cases, but assuming any flimsy excuse Thor comes up with is automatically good enough doesn't strike me as a good idea.

I think it's enough data to conclude that when someone dies due to something that was done to them *in combat*, it would count as honorable. It would be ridiculous if, say, Roy had been a dwarf and was sent off to Hel because it wasn't ultimately the many spells Xykon hit him with but the hard landing after the fall that killed him.

[Fyraltari]

Never well to avoid being recaptured, apparently. Almost like the gods are invested in keeping it contained for some reason.

So what? Being "invested in keeping it contained" doesn't help when it breaks the prison you've made for it. If the Snarl can move to the Outer Planes on its own you need an explanation for why it hasn't yet and killed the gods that keep imprisonning it.

[Jasdoif]

So what? Being "invested in keeping it contained" doesn't help when it breaks the prison you've made for it.Being "invested in keeping it contained" means seeing a value in spending effort to keep it contained. Which would make no sense if there was no reason for the gods to keep it contained...like if the Snarl wasn't a threat to the gods on the outer planes.

This is, admittedly, only an iota or so ahead of "nothing that hasn't happened can happen".


If the Snarl can move to the Outer Planes on its own you need an explanation for why it hasn't yet and killed the gods that keep imprisonning it.There would need to be an explanation, yes. The most obvious/boring possibilities: The Snarl hasn't been free long enough for it/rifts to grow large enough to connect to the outer planes, or the infinite nature of the outer planes has meant the Snarl hasn't had any of the comparatively tiny number of gods in reach when it's been able to connect to the outer planes, or the Snarl has killed gods that we haven't heard about it killing.

If you want to claim the Snarl definitively can't move to the outer planes on its own, you need to establish what that definition is and what makes it supportable. If that's not what you're claiming...then I seem to have lost track of what we're talking about.

[Peelee]

Being "invested in keeping it contained" means seeing a value in spending effort to keep it contained. Which would make no sense if there was no reason for the gods to keep it contained...like if the Snarl wasn't a threat to the gods on the outer planes.

Being able to keep the world going seems like a good reason for the gods to keep it contained, to be fair.

[Jasdoif]

Being able to keep the world going seems like a good reason for the gods to keep it contained, to be fair.The world's already gone (or give it a few minutes) when the Snarl gets out, though. And the Material Plane is infinite, and planes other than the Material Plane exist; so waiting for the Snarl to calm down to trap it again with a new world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) seems awfully silly...unless making new worlds elsewhere isn't viable for some reason.

[Peelee]

The world's already gone (or give it a few minutes) when the Snarl gets out, though. And the Material Plane is infinite, and planes other than the Material Plane exist; so waiting for the Snarl to calm down to trap it again with a new world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) seems awfully silly...unless making new worlds elsewhere isn't viable for some reason.

Let me rephrase.

Being able to remake the world and get it going for as long as they can seems to be a good reason for them to keep it contained. No containment = no more worlds = not good for the gods.

[Fyraltari]

Being "invested in keeping it contained" means seeing a value in spending effort to keep it contained. Which would make no sense if there was no reason for the gods to keep it contained...like if the Snarl wasn't a threat to the gods on the outer planes.
Uh he keeps destroying all their food. If they don't contin him they'll starve to oblivion.

This is, admittedly, only an iota or so ahead of "nothing that hasn't happened can happen".

There would need to be an explanation, yes. The most obvious/boring possibilities: The Snarl hasn't been free long enough for it/rifts to grow large enough to connect to the outer planes
I don't see how the size of the rifts connects to what plane they link to.

or the infinite nature of the outer planes has meant the Snarl hasn't had any of the comparatively tiny number of gods in reach when it's been able to connect to the outer planes or the Snarl has killed gods that we haven't heard about it killing.
If the Snarl went to the Outer Planes, how come it's alway back to the Material Plane? Wouldn't the Gods trap it inside the demiplan of Eteranl tourment or any other place where they don't keep their food?
It hasn't killed Thor, Odin, Dragon, Hel, Marduk, Monkey and all the gods that were there of the beginning, so it still sounds unlikely the Snarl has been able to follow the Gods.
And more importantly if the Snarl reaching the Outer Planes was nothing out of the ordinary, why would Tyr and Skadi be worried about the Dark One's plan?


If you want to claim the Snarl definitively can't move to the outer planes on its own, you need to establish what that definition is and what makes it supportable.
You're using definitely (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/definitely) wrong, it does not mean "by definition".
We know some things about the Snarl:
1)It really hates the gods (as evidenced by the fact that the first thing it did was kill a whole bunch of them).
2)It's way better at killing gods than they are at killing it.
3)It has escaped its prisons numerous times.
4)Its prison has always been in the Prime Material Plane.
5)The surviving gods escape it by hiding in the Outer Planes.

The most logical conclusion from these premisses is that the Snarl cannot pursue the gods into the Outer Planes.

[Peelee]

You're using definitely (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/definitely) wrong, it does not mean "by definition".

"Definitely" and "definitively" are separate words. Very, very close words, but separate words.

[antipodeF]

An infinite slope has no bottom.

Grey Wolf

If the slopes are infinite, how can there be no bottom? We see the top, and there's more then one mountain. They appear to be shaped like rough-textured cones. If they go on forever, won't they converge?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If the slopes are infinite, how can there be no bottom?
Because there is a top. And they are infinite. Therefore, they can't have a bottom, or they would not be infinite.


We see the top, and there's more then one mountain. They appear to be shaped like rough-textured cones. If they go on forever, won't they converge?

Nope. If they converged, they wouldn't be infinite. Thus, one can deduce that instead, there is spatial weirdness going on.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Uh he keeps destroying all their food. If they don't contin him they'll starve to oblivion.It seems like that would be better accomplished by having their food where the Snarl can't get to it, instead of parking it right on top of the Snarl's prison. Perhaps on an outer plane, if the Snarl couldn't get to the outer plane.


And more importantly if the Snarl reaching the Outer Planes was nothing out of the ordinary, why would Tyr and Skadi be worried about the Dark One's plan?Presumably, the Snarl being unleashed directly on the outer planes is out of the ordinary; as you've noted, we don't have much in the way of evidence of how the Snarl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) moves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html).

[Squire Doodad]

It seems like that would be better accomplished by having their food where the Snarl can't get to it, instead of parking it right on top of the Snarl's prison. Perhaps on an outer plane, if the Snarl couldn't get to the outer plane.

Presumably, the Snarl being unleashed directly on the outer planes is out of the ordinary; as you've noted, we don't have much in the way of evidence of how the Snarl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) moves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html).

Assuming the universe is very large, and the Snarl cannot teleport, then it is limited to the speed of light. Given how many things are very large and infinite in D&D, the Snarl probably covers less than a galaxy's worth of room in its rampage. The gods use the preexisting strands to make the new world, hence why they don't make a new world somewhere else aside from in the other planes. Of course, the Snarl is probably also would be attracted to that world, meaning making a new one might bring with it a heavy risk.

[Resileaf]

It really doesn't matter where in the universe the world is created, because the Snarl is creation itself unraveling. The entire universe gets destroyed at the same time.
And that's if the material plane is a universe at all.

[Peelee]

Assuming the universe is very large, and the Snarl cannot teleport, then it is limited to the speed of light.

A.) Superluminal travel means things are not restricted to the speed of light anymore.
2.) Even if that wasn't the case, physics work differently in D&D. Magic exists.
III.) Even if that wasn't the case, scientists increased the speed of light in 2208.:smalltongue:

[deuterio12]

It seems like that would be better accomplished by having their food where the Snarl can't get to it, instead of parking it right on top of the Snarl's prison. Perhaps on an outer plane, if the Snarl couldn't get to the outer plane.



Remember that even random nameless characters can randomly travel to heaven itself on their own. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)

So heaven can sustain normal people besides the soul of the departed.

But instead the gods are all "lol nope if you're still breathing you need to keep crawling in that fragile ball of mud until the deity-slaying abomination inside breaks again for the #218371246818 time lol".

[Particle_Man]

See what I mean? "The Snarl never killed all of the gods on their infinite planes, so it's incapable of reaching their planes" is entirely conjectural.

But induction is a thing that people (and presumably, OOTS gods) can use. They have had lots and lots and lots and lots (and lots) of iterations of worlds. Like, probably more than most people have when they navigate traffic, eat food, and do other things based on the idea that it is reasonably safe to do so because it has been reasounably safe to do so. I mean, being 100% certain would be nice, but induction is a thing (and indeed, the thing most often used both in science and in everyday life by humans).

[Jasdoif]

But induction is a thing that people (and presumably, OOTS gods) can use. They have had lots and lots and lots and lots (and lots) of iterations of worlds. Like, probably more than most people have when they navigate traffic, eat food, and do other things based on the idea that it is reasonably safe to do so because it has been reasounably safe to do so. I mean, being 100% certain would be nice, but induction is a thing (and indeed, the thing most often used both in science and in everyday life by humans).That the gods keep retrapping the Snarl after all this time means the gods see value in keeping the Snarl trapped, I agree.


Which is really close to the crux of the issue: The gods have a giant set of rules to keep new Snarls from forming (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), and have had something of the sort for as long as we can tell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html). The Snarl's attempts to kill the gods are opposed by the gods: a coalition of hyper-intelligent beings who've chosen to establish rules over their existence for the express purpose of preventing Snarls from killing them. The only time we know of where that hasn't been the case is when the Snarl first appeared...and we don't know where the Eastern Pantheon was when it appeared and killed them, and thus whether it had to have planar transport ability to move to where the first world was when it destroyed. Every example of gods not dying since then has been the result of the deeply correlated efforts of the Snarl and gods...and we'd have to be able to extricate one from the other before we could actually distinguish between the Snarl being incapable of getting itself to the gods to kill them, and the gods being really good at thwarting the Snarl's attempts to kill them.

This distinction is especially relevant because the Dark One's plan centers around sending the Snarl directly against gods, and killing enough gods could very well cripple their ability to trap/thwart the Snarl. And at that point, the difference between whether the Snarl is stuck in one plane or not would be the difference between "well at least the next world won't have to try to contain that Snarl" and "everything is doomed if two quiddities aren't enough to retrap the Snarl".

[HorizonWalker]

The thing is, the Snarl destroys every world that the Gods themselves don't destroy. So, presumably, if they build a world without keeping the Snarl trapped... then the Snarl will destroy it and all the effort they put into building that world is wasted.

Considering that the world is where they produce mortals with their delicious belief, worship, dedication, and souls, which they need to survive, then it could be that they trap the Snarl mainly because he's a threat to their food supply.

Also, the Snarl itself stays out of its prison for quite a while between worlds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) And the first time around, they hid for centuries. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) It's entirely possible that they still wait for centuries between each world- in the absence of any reason that period should change, why wouldn't it stay the same?

As for the question of whether the Snarl can reach the Outer Planes, I'd say that it can, in the same way that I can do brain surgery: it's possible, but I don't know how and doing it wouldn't even occur to me.

[Fyraltari]

"Definitely" and "definitively" are separate words. Very, very close words, but separate words.

Sleep is underrated I tells ya.

[Peelee]

Sleep is underrated I tells ya.

I've never found it to be terribly useful, myself.

[factotum]

It's entirely possible that they still wait for centuries between each world- in the absence of any reason that period should change, why wouldn't it stay the same?


Because the Gods get better at creating worlds, maybe? It took them so long to build world #2 because they both had to create a world, and entrap the Snarl within it. After a while they get the hang of it and can do it much faster.

Overall, I agree that the Snarl not ever having gone to the Outer Planes either means it physically cannot, or is unaware of how to get there, as you say. It seems certain that the Snarl cannot learn from experience, or else it would surely have figured out what the gods are doing each time they create a new world and taken steps to avoid getting captured.

[HorizonWalker]

Because the Gods get better at creating worlds, maybe? It took them so long to build world #2 because they both had to create a world, and entrap the Snarl within it. After a while they get the hang of it and can do it much faster.

The next comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) says they worked quickly, and the one I linked to previously says they hid for centuries, not that they toiled for centuries. That waiting period is, it seems, solely for waiting out the Snarl's tantrum.

[Wizard_Lizard]

If it can't get to the outer pkanes, hiw did it kill the eastern pantheon?

[HorizonWalker]

If it can't get to the outer pkanes, hiw did it kill the eastern pantheon?

They coulda been on the Material Plane. There wasn't anything stopping them from doing so at the time, after all.

[Wizard_Lizard]

They coulda been on the Material Plane. There wasn't anything stopping them from doing so at the time, after all.

I guess.. ..but what stopped them from teleporting as soon as they noticed that the snarl was a threat?

[Kelenius]

I guess.. ..but what stopped them from teleporting as soon as they noticed that the snarl was a threat?

Couldn't react in time? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)

[DavidBV]

Alright, so the new mystery guy gets planeshifted... but if he's some kind of Outsider, there's a big chance he has planar travel abilities, like Celia or Sabine do.

[F.Harr]

Heh. She must be in her sophomore year. :)

I don't think we're done with Mr. Gravelvoice. This'll be fun.

[nbLurkerAbove]

However, there seem to be no characters from the previous world around.

Perhaps Fruit Pie the Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html), from the world of sentient movie theater snacks?

[Skull the Troll]

So what? Being "invested in keeping it contained" doesn't help when it breaks the prison you've made for it. If the Snarl can move to the Outer Planes on its own you need an explanation for why it hasn't yet and killed the gods that keep imprisonning it.

It says in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html that the gods hid in the outer planes "Hoping the snarl would not notice them" I think that line gives us the answer. The gods clearly believe the snarl is physically capable of getting to them, but it is unaware of a reason to do so. It doesn't understand anything but rage, so a systemic search is out of the question. It hasn't noticed being imprisoned until it's too late millions of times after all. It may not even be aware that other gods exist. From its perspective, it was born, it killed all the gods it found very quickly, it destroyed the world, and over time this force it doesn't understand imprisoned it. Rinse, Repeat. Only its nature and ignorance appear to be keeping it from killing the other gods.


However of more importance, how did the vampire get a forked rod made of an infinite slope as the material component?

[Peelee]

It says in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html that the gods hid in the outer planes "Hoping the snarl would not notice them" I think that line gives us the answer.

It also says in 274 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) and 275 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) that Stickworld is the second world. So, ya know, boulder of salt.

[zimmerwald1915]

It also says in 274 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) and 275 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) that Stickworld is the second world. So, ya know, boulder of salt.
While the bit of Shojo's spiel that says this world is the second world has been jossed by subsequent events, the idea that the gods hid from the Snarl in the Outer Planes jives with what we've been shown, where they 1) live in the Outer Planes and 2) hide things (for example, world gravemarkers) in the Outer Planes.

[Peelee]

While the bit of Shojo's spiel that says this world is the second world has been jossed by subsequent events, the idea that the gods hid from the Snarl in the Outer Planes jives with what we've been shown, where they 1) live in the Outer Planes and 2) hide things (for example, world gravemarkers) in the Outer Planes.

Oh, absolutely. But the implication of "hoping the Snarl would not notice them" isn't as rock-solid as presented, is all I'm saying.

[Kelenius]

Plus, even if the Snarl can't reach the outer planes, the gods could be still wiping them clean.

[Bacon Elemental]

I always saw the deal as, like, the snarl Can go anywhere but doesnt have any reason to unless it discovers the gods. If the snarl sees the gods, it will kill them, but that doesnt inherently mean it is seeking them out. It just destroys things, and the gods are things it can destroy.

[Jasdoif]

We see the top, and there's more then one mountain. They appear to be shaped like rough-textured cones. If they go on forever, won't they converge?Nope. If they converged, they wouldn't be infinite. Thus, one can deduce that instead, there is spatial weirdness going on.For the record, assuming the plane is in fact Gehenna:


Floating in an impenetrable, infinite void are volcanic mountains seemingly without base or peak. They are only finite in the strictest sense of the word, measuring hundreds of thousands of miles in each direction. A single volcanic mountain dominates each of the four layers of Gehenna, though lesser volcanic earthbergs drift and sometimes smash into the greater mountains.I do prefer the spatial weirdness explanation though, because it reminds me of how a Klein bottle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle) passes through itself without intersecting itself.


However of more importance, how did the vampire get a forked rod made of an infinite slope as the material component?I would guess from a spell component pouch; there's no listed price for the forked rods plane shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) has for a focus.

[Squire Doodad]

However of more importance, how did the vampire get a forked rod made of an infinite slope as the material component?

A wizard did it. Wait, these are vampire clerics. A cleric did it.