Do These 'Brews Exist?

[Maat Mons]

Thing 1:

Looking at 5e Warlock, it does a lot of what I've always felt a casting class should. You get a set of at-will abilities, plus a set of per-encounter abilities. Your spells all draw from a single pool of resources (not a different pool for each spell level). Casting a spell always depletes exactly one point from this pool (not x points for a 1st-level spell, y points for a 2nd-level spell, et cetera).

So has anyone 'brewed up variants of the other casting classes to make them work like Warlock? (I mean, without capping spell progression at 5th-level spells.) And a modification of the rules for multiclass spellcasters to account for this change?



Thing 2:

I liked 3.5 Tome of Battle, because it brought the mechanics for martial characters and spellcasters closer together. The only thing I would have liked more is if they made it so both types of character follow literally identical mechanics.

Has anyone done a 5e equivalent of Tome of Battle? Something where mundane classes gain "maneuvers" that follow similar mechanics to spells?



Thing 3:

Has anyone done a 5e version of Tome of Battle where maneuvers foll mechanics similar to Warlock instead of typical spellcasters?



Thing 3:

Has anyone done a 5e maneuver system where multiclassing two maneuver-using classes follows rules similar to the way in which 5e handles multiclassed spellcasters?

Better yet, where multiclassing between spellcasters and martial adepts works the same way?



Thing 4:

The trifecta: A homebrew where all casters follow Warlock-style mechanics, and all mundane characters are martial adepts that also follow Warlock-style mechanics, and multiclassing a spellcasting class with a martial-adept class works the same way as mixing two (Warlock-style) casting classes?

[Bloodcloud]

Thing 2 is called 4ed Dnd.

Thing 3 sounds like a straight battlemaster?

Thing 3a What? I don't understand at all.

Thing 4 Seriously, check 4ed, you might like it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm inclined to agree. Even if 4e d&d and its At-Will/Encounter/Daily paradigm isn't quite what you want, it's a much better starting point than 5e.

If you're determined to stick with 5e... I'd suggest scrapping literally everything but the Warlock and building that up into a sort of all-encompassing generic class.

Replace the first-level Patron with a "Specialty" that roughly corresponds to class-- let it affect your hit die size, which spell list you pull from, what unique Invocations are available, and provide a few key archetypal abilities.
Replace Pacts with a Combat Style (Strength, Skill, or Spell, perhaps), granting access to a bunch of unique Invocations.
Write up Maneuvers as straight identical to spells, just with more of an emphasis on SCAG blade cantrip style "weapon attack plus" abilities.
Turn remaining class features into either spells (like what was done with Find Steed) or Invocations.
Rewrite existing Invocations into more generic forms. Ie, "Agonizing Blast" becomes "Signature Cantrip" and applies to any one damage dealing cantrip you choose.

It'll be a lot of work to write and a hell of a lot of work to playtest, and it'll be a bit kludgy no matter what you do, but it's doable. I've done bigger projects.

[Maat Mons]

I didn't really like 4e. Partly because it didn't have true multiclassing. And partly because it was very inconsistent on what each ability score did. Also, (it's been awhile) weren't you only able to use each Encounter Power once per encounter? (Rather than having a pool of "encounter points," or whatever, that you could potentially spend to use an Encounter Power multiple times?)

While Battlemaster Fighter does have some elements of what I'm looking for, and uses the term "maneuver," I'd still say it's a long way from being a 5e update of Tome of Battle.

Yeah, "spells, but with more stabbing" and "101 flavors of Warlock" are pretty much what I was looking for. If I homebrewed it, I'd probably do a suite of classes with a new "technique" mechanic that they all shared. But I thought there was a chance that at least some aspect of what I was looking for may have been done already.

[Man_Over_Game]

I have a little bit that might suit what you're looking for, in roundabout ways.

Option 1: Maneuvers for all Fighters.
Rather than gaining Action Surge at level 2, you gain one Superiority Die and can choose 2 maneuvers from the Battle Master subclass. Your Superiority Die is a 1d8, and you regain it after a Short or Long Rest. You gain an additional Superiority Die at levels 5, 11, 17 and 20 and can change one of your maneuvers at those levels.

At level 17, you gain 2 more maneuvers and your Superiority Die is a 1d10.

It's balanced around the fact that Action Surge doubles your number of attacks, and each Superiority Die is roughly as effective as a single attack.



Option 2: PAIN!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23622972&postcount=1
Effectively, deal slightly less damage to afflict temporary Exhaustion on your target. This way, martials can focus on crippling aspects of their target rather than being forced to rely on straight damage.


These solutions are fairly broad, and don't cover all of the things you're looking for, but they do add a lot more customizations and tactics to martial combatants.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I didn't really like 4e. Partly because it didn't have true multiclassing. And partly because it was very inconsistent on what each ability score did. Also, (it's been awhile) weren't you only able to use each Encounter Power once per encounter? (Rather than having a pool of "encounter points," or whatever, that you could potentially spend to use an Encounter Power multiple times?)
I think, yeah. But it seems like it ought to be less work to fix those issues with 4e than to write a bunch of 5e stuff. Like, it ought to be easy enough to convert "x encounter powers each 1/fight" to "x encounter powers/fight, In any combination." That way you can keep the huge wealth of tactical options.

[Man_Over_Game]

The reason for the inability to use encounter powers multiple times in a fight is because it incentivized stale tactics. Why use the Encounter power you got at level 1 when the one you got at level 10 is so much better?

You could come up with some kind of point system, though, like what Grod said. Take a look at the Psionic stuff in 4e, as it matches pretty darn closely to what you're describing, and might give you a good place to start with.

[Maat Mons]

As a bit of a tangent, what they should have done is make it so the Encounter Power gained at level 1 scaled in power to the point that, when you're 10th level, it's just as powerful as the Encounter Power you gain at 10th level.

Actually, I guess that is sort of on-topic. 5e spells generally have scaling built in. If I have to rewrite every 4e power to add scaling that keeps it competitive with higher-level powers at higher levels, that's a lot of work. So I'm not convinced that would be any easier.

[Vogie]

I mean, it's something that could be done - Warlock's main spell slots stop at 5, but they still have 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells 1/day. This is precisely the same as the Spell Points variant from the DMG, which caps the number of 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells cast to 1 a day. A 20th level spell point caster has 133 points, of which 43 points would be used for 6-9th level spells, and the remainder would allow the caster to just cast 12 5th level spells (and 1 4th level) per day. (In my games, sorcerers are all spell point casters, because their sorcery points are co-mingled with their spell points, thus increasing their cap to 153. After their 6-9th level spells the remainder would allow the caster to just cast 15(!) 5th level spells (and 1 3rd level) per day, provided they eschew their metamagic class features entirely.)

If you wanted to update All casters to the Warlock skeleton, you could probably do that by moving things around. Impacts would look something like:
Full Casters:
Bard

College would have to be selected at 1, which kind of makes sense.
No more Catnap Spell
Bardic Inspirations already refresh on short rest after 5, no issue there.
Give them Wizard-Style Ritual Casting via Sheet music or Poetry books.
Because their spell list is already combat-utility focused, I'd probably give some sort of invocations for niche powers, such as the Chains of Carceri, and expansions to Vicious Mockery.
Cleric

Already starts at level 1, which is gold
Channel divinity should go to 2x/Rest earlier, although not much.
Give them a stack of divine grace points, similar to the a Paladin's Lay on Hands, which can be used for healing and other things.
Make Divine Intervention a more active component, and available earlier.
Invocations given would be of the at-will variety, giving those utility powers, but gated by wisdom modifier.
Druid

Give a stack of Fey Magic dice, similar to the Celestial Warlock's Healing light (and Dream/ Twilight Druids).
These are then further transformed into different effects depending on circle - Land uses them to fuel invocations, Moon uses them for self-healing and beast maneuvers, shepherd uses them for summoning, Spores for THP while in Symbiotic form, and Dream & Twilight Druids use them the same as printed.
Sorcerer
I'd actually not use pact magic for them, as the neat part about Sorcerers is that they can crack their spell slots and reshuffle them... spell points!
However, if you're 100% sold on making them using Pact Magic, I'd have some sort of way to spend Hit Dice to refresh Spell Slots between rests.
Probably needs more spells like Melf's Minute Meteors, which give an effect over multiple turns
Wizard
Break up Spell Mastery into 2 invocations, one for 1st level and one for 2nd level, and spread them out earlier in the class. Probably 2nd level at 9, using Ascendant step as a model, so level would be like... 5?
The Signature spell Feature would also be split, with one moved to level 18, and the other at 20


If all casters were pact magic casters, there'd be very little need for a Multiclassing tables - your spells known would expand in variety, rather than power level. 1/2 and 1/3rd casters would have their own progressions using the same calculations the existing MC table does.

1/2 Caster, Pact Magic (Paladin, Ranger)


Level
Slot Level
Spell Slots


2nd
1
1


3rd
1
2

5th
2
2

9th
3
2

13th
4
2

17th
5
2


1/3rd Caster, Pact Magic (EK, AT)


Level
Slot Level
Spell Slots


3rd
1
1


5th
1
2

7th
2
2

10th
2
2

13th
3
2

19th
4
2



Martials, on the other hand, would need to break things down using spellcasting mechanics. I'd probably mine 4e for the Attack Exploits, which allow martial characters to have a menu of non-superiority attacks that will give them a collection of options that look and feel like attacks, but using the mechanics of spells.

Alternatively, instead of Having attacks being separate from Cantrips, the attacks would be treated very similar to non-scaling cantrips, with the effect(s) received are based on the weapon wielded. The Arcane Archer is the closest to where this is already, followed by the battlemaster.

[Bjarkmundur]

As a bit of a tangent, what they should have done is make it so the Encounter Power gained at level 1 scaled in power to the point that, when you're 10th level, it's just as powerful as the Encounter Power you gain at 10th level

Didn't you have a maximum number of encounter powers, and start retraining them at levels 7+, swapping out your level 1 encounter power with your newly acquired one?

In a thread where MoG, Grod and Vogie have all done their best, you either take what you got or give up :/

[Grod_The_Giant]

I did work on something very similar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?291015-quot-Tome-of-D-amp-D-quot-maneuvers-for-everything!) back in the day (was that seriously six years ago? Jesus)-- martial techniques, mystical powers, and actual spells all using the same ToB based rules. I'd give each class their own method for readying and recovering maneuvers, and they'd all get one unique school of maneuvers and four common ones that multiple classes could offer. I worked out most of the underlying design goals but never wrote more than a scattering of actual material.

I'm positive there have been Tome of Battle conversions out there for 5e, though I've not read any of them to vouch for quality.

[Composer99]

I've done up a set of combat manoeuvres for 5e, similar to Tome of Battle. Posted a few of them some time ago, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?537900-Combat-Manoeuvre-System-Basic-Manoeuvres) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541581-Combat-Manoeuvre-System-1st-Level-Manoeuvres). I really should get around to posting the revisions and all the rest of them.