Magic Stone + Eldritch Blast

[mgshamster]

Can you use both of these in the same round? Eldritch Blast as the Action, and throwing a Magic Stone as the Bonus Action.

Or is the Magic Stone bonus action only for imbuing magic into the stone, and it can be thrown using an Action only?

For reference, this is for a Bard 2/Warlock 2.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Bonus Action for Magic Stone is only for creating the stones. You do not throw a stone with the same Bonus Action.

[nickl_2000]

MOG is correct. One extra clarification, you can absolutely cast EB and magic stone in the same round.

EB to attack, Magic Stone to create stones. It's just the attacking with the stones that requires an action.

[Vogie]

the Magic Stone bonus action only for imbuing magic into the stone, and it can be thrown using an Action only?

This is RAW.

Magic Stone isn't great because of this, in addition to it's readily available to the classes that don't have extra attack (Warlock, Druid and Bard). Since it isn't a pact weapon, Thirsting Blade doesn't apply, while a Valor Bard or Swords Bard COULD grab it with magical secrets, it's still a terrible option.

Now, If you wanted to buff it a bit, you could state that the magic stones are:

are Light weapons, thus be able to be thrown as a bonus action in addition to an attack
are Ranged weapons attacks, rather than a ranged spell attack, thus triggering sneak attack
have some sort of scaling with level, such as longer range, or enchanting more stones with a bonus action, or slowly added more damage, such as a +Dex modifier (max 2) at level 5, +Dex modifier (max 3) at level 11, and so on

[Man_Over_Game]

This is RAW.

Magic Stone isn't great because of this, in addition to it's readily available to the classes that don't have extra attack (Warlock, Druid and Bard). Since it isn't a pact weapon, Thirsting Blade doesn't apply, while a Valor Bard or Swords Bard COULD grab it with magical secrets, it's still a terrible option.

Now, If you wanted to buff it a bit, you could state that the magic stones are:

are Light weapons, thus be able to be thrown as a bonus action in addition to an attack
are Ranged weapon attacks, rather than a ranged spell attack, thus triggering sneak attack
have some sort of scaling with level, such as longer range, or enchanting more stones with a bonus action, or slowly added more damage, such as a +Dex modifier (max 2) at level 5, +Dex modifier (max 3) at level 11, and so on


The problem with the second bullet is that the Rogue doesn't require a Ranged Sneak Attack, but instead requires a Ranged Weapon that he makes an attack with. The Stones aren't a weapon, according to the weapon tables, and only is able to be used for an attack because of the cantrip itself.

Similarly, even if the Monk was considered to have Finesse on his unarmed strikes, his fists are not considered weapons, and still wouldn't be eligible for Sneak Attack.

I do agree on the rest of what you said, though. To add more to it, I think that Magic Stone's main benefit is providing allies with options for ranged attacks. Give your stones to the group Barbarian, and now he has a ranged magic attack that works at long range and he can Rage while still being able to attack. Or summon a bunch of Apes as a Druid and give them all ammunition. Or just be something that uses high Wisdom with Extra Attack and no ranged options (like a Monk) and go to town.

[NaughtyTiger]

The problem with the second bullet is that the Rogue doesn't require a Ranged Sneak Attack, but instead requires a Ranged Weapon that he makes an attack with. The Stones aren't a weapon, according to the weapon tables, and only is able to be used for an attack because of the cantrip itself.

But if shot with a sling, that does trigger sneak attack.

[Segev]

But if shot with a sling, that does trigger sneak attack.

I was just going to bring this up.

I think magic stones is strongest when used cooperatively. You don't have to be the one to use them. Enchant them for your rogue and then use eldrich blast, yourself. Heck, enchant a pile and have other characters on your side pick them up and hurl them.

Using them in slings should also trigger any "must be a weapon attack" rules, so those with extra attacks or with off-hand attacks can take advantage. Throw one, use the now-free hand to load the other in a sling, fire. (This is a little cheesy, but I think works by the RAW.)

[Man_Over_Game]

I was just going to bring this up.

I think magic stones is strongest when used cooperatively. You don't have to be the one to use them. Enchant them for your rogue and then use eldrich blast, yourself. Heck, enchant a pile and have other characters on your side pick them up and hurl them.

Using them in slings should also trigger any "must be a weapon attack" rules, so those with extra attacks or with off-hand attacks can take advantage. Throw one, use the now-free hand to load the other in a sling, fire. (This is a little cheesy, but I think works by the RAW.)

I'm only familiar with like 3 things that refer to a "ranged weapon" without the term "Ranged Weapon Attack":

Rogue Sneak Attack.
Archery Fighting Style.
Sharpshooter Feat.


As far as I know, those are the only instances where "Ranged Weapon" is relevant, besides maybe a Ranger spell or something. Although if anyone knows more, let me know!

[Nagog]

I'm only familiar with like 3 things that refer to a "ranged weapon" without the term "Ranged Weapon Attack":

Rogue Sneak Attack.
Archery Fighting Style.
Sharpshooter Feat.


As far as I know, those are the only instances where "Ranged Weapon" is relevant, besides maybe a Ranger spell or something. Although if anyone knows more, let me know!


Does this mean you could turn a Magic Stone into a Lightning Arrow via the Ranger spell of that name? If so, that could be a nifty combo in a tight spot, particularly if your DM allows you to use things like headbands or other strips of suitable cloth as a sling, as well as a good combo if your spell attack modifier is better than the ranger's attack modifier. Just spitballing some potentially fun ideas.

[Man_Over_Game]

Does this mean you could turn a Magic Stone into a Lightning Arrow via the Ranger spell of that name? If so, that could be a nifty combo in a tight spot, particularly if your DM allows you to use things like headbands or other strips of suitable cloth as a sling, as well as a good combo if your spell attack modifier is better than the ranger's attack modifier. Just spitballing some potentially fun ideas.

Lightning Arrow:The next time you make a ranged weapon attack during the spell’s duration, the weapon’s ammunition, or the weapon itself if it’s a thrown weapon, transforms into a bolt o f lightning.

Nope. Attacking with Magic Stone is a Ranged Spell Attack, that just happens to be fired from a Sling. Similarly, using Catapult to launch a spear does not turn it into a Ranged Weapon Attack.

[NaughtyTiger]

compatible with Magic Stone

Sneak attack - "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon" , sling is a ranged weapon, applies

Sharpshooter
"Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls", making ranged spell attack, so doesn't apply
"Your ranged weapons ignore half cover and three-quarters cover", sling is a ranged weapon, applies
"Before you make a ranged attack with a ranged weapon with which you are proficient,...", sling is a ranged weapon, magic stone does range [spell] attack, applies

Archery FS - "attack rolls you make with ranged weapons", sling is a ranged weapon, applies

Extra Attack - "At 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn", applies


controvertial:
thrown rock isn't a weapon, but is it an improvised weapon... (say close enough to a light hammer?)

[Man_Over_Game]

compatible with Magic Stone

Sneak attack - "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon" , sling is a ranged weapon, applies

Sharpshooter
"Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls", making ranged spell attack, so doesn't apply
"Your ranged weapons ignore half cover and three-quarters cover", sling is a ranged weapon, applies
"Before you make a ranged attack with a ranged weapon with which you are proficient,...", sling is a ranged weapon, magic stone does range [spell] attack, applies

Archery FS - "attack rolls you make with ranged weapons", sling is a ranged weapon, applies

Extra Attack - "At 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn", applies

Good analysis.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that the Sling has its own Range of 30/90, while magic stone has a range of 60.

Which is the one you use?

[Naanomi]

Banneret with Magic Initiate (Warlock)?

[NaughtyTiger]

Good analysis.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that the Sling has its own Range of 30/90, while magic stone has a range of 60.

Which is the one you use?

JC says:
thown is 60
sling is 30/90...

my table:
thrown is 60
sling is 60? (my nature cleric didn't have sharpshooter so we didn't care too much)

[Man_Over_Game]

JC says:
thown is 60
sling is 30/90...

my table:
thrown is 60
sling is 60? (my nature cleric didn't have sharpshooter so we didn't care too much)

I wish they errata'd it. I feel like they tacked on the whole "sling" thing on Magic Stone without thinking it through.

Personally, I feel that it'd just be fine to go with 90 feet on the Sling when used with Magic Stone. Not only is the Sling a low damage weapon, but it requires two hands just like any other ranged weapon to reload.

[Nagog]

compatible with Magic Stone

Sneak attack - "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon" , sling is a ranged weapon, applies

Sharpshooter
"Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls", making ranged spell attack, so doesn't apply
"Your ranged weapons ignore half cover and three-quarters cover", sling is a ranged weapon, applies
"Before you make a ranged attack with a ranged weapon with which you are proficient,...", sling is a ranged weapon, magic stone does range [spell] attack, applies

Archery FS - "attack rolls you make with ranged weapons", sling is a ranged weapon, applies

Extra Attack - "At 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn", applies


controvertial:
thrown rock isn't a weapon, but is it an improvised weapon... (say close enough to a light hammer?)

Your comments feel contradictory, you're saying Sharpshooter's cover ignorance does apply because you're using a Sling, which is a ranged weapon and therefore a ranged weapon attack, but the long range bit of it doesn't apply because it's a spell attack, even when used in the sling, making it a ranged weapon attack? Which are you committing to, the Ranged Weapon Attack of the Sling or the Ranged Spell Attack of the magic rocks themselves?

[BarneyBent]

Your comments feel contradictory, you're saying Sharpshooter's cover ignorance does apply because you're using a Sling, which is a ranged weapon and therefore a ranged weapon attack, but the long range bit of it doesn't apply because it's a spell attack, even when used in the sling, making it a ranged weapon attack? Which are you committing to, the Ranged Weapon Attack of the Sling or the Ranged Spell Attack of the magic rocks themselves?

Not who you’re asking, but it’s all in the wording.

“Attack with a ranged weapon” is any attack (melee or spell) that uses a ranged weapon. That includes a magic stone flung with a sling. Some have argued it even extends to melee attacks made with a ranged weapon as an improvised weapon, as well as spells cast using a ranged Pact weapon as a focus. I don’t agree that they count (in the former, the weapon is treated as an improvised weapon, not a ranged weapon; in the latter, you aren’t using the weapon to attack, you’re using it as the material components of casting a spell which subsequently allows you to make an attack), but it gives you an idea of the distinction.

“Ranged Weapon Attack”, on the other hand, is a weapon attack made at range. “Weapon attack” has a specific definition, and is as opposed to a spell attack.

This isn’t arbitrary or interpretation, btw, these are specific terms that are used consistently throughout the rules and have been reaffirmed by the game designers. For another example, an unarmed strike is a “melee weapon attack”, but is not an “attack with a melee weapon”.