[Base Class] The Vecht

[Vaynor]

EDIT: Some response would be great here, not sure if they're too overpowered.

This is for a campaign setting I'm working on. It is made to replace barbarians, as I am making completely new classes. Thoughts, opinions?

Vecht

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c83/Vaynor/Picture1-2.png

Civilized people call them barbarians and beserkers and suspect them of mayhem, impiety, and atrocities. These “barbarians” however, have proven their mettle and their value to those who would be their allies. To enemies who underestimate them, they have proved their cunning, resourcefulness, persistence, and mercilessness.

Adventures: Adventuring is the best chance vechts have of finding a place in civilized society. They’re not well suited to the monotony of guard duty or other mundane tasks. Vechts also have no trouble with dangers, uncertainties, and the wandering that adventuring involves. They may adventure to defeat hated enemies. They also have a noted distaste for that which they consider unnatural, including undead, demons, and devils.
Characteristics: They are complete brutes and use their strength to accomplish any and all tasks. Vecht tend not to think straight and use brawn before brains.
Alignment: They act upon instinct and follow others. They love the chaos of nature and therefore their alignment reflects that.
Religion: Vecht are too wary of the supernatural to be religious. Some carry a holy symbol for good luck, but they generally leave religion to the shamans.
Background: This class is barbaric and relies mostly on instinct. Most training comes naturally, through persistence and self-teaching.
Races: Dwarves, Kromm, Halflings
Other Classes: They are followers and get along with everyone that has a strong personality and likes to fight. They dislike any casters or magic users, but always look for the best in them.
Role: They are purely melee combatant, and devastating at that. They can take tremendous amounts of damage.

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Vecht rely on Constitution as their most powerful ability to allow them to withstand long fights, it also powers many Vecht abilities. Strength is important to increase the damage dealt by Vecht. Dexterity is useful to increase armor class.
Alignment: Any Non-Lawful
Hit Die: d12

Class Skills
The vecht’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill points at first level: (2+int modifier) x4
Skill points: 2+int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the vecht.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A vecht is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and medium armor.

Illiteracy
Vecht are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A vecht may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

A vecht who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a vecht level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

Lesser Vigor
Hit points gained at each level (including this one) are increased by 1. Also, 1/day, a vecht can invigorate himself increasing hit points temporarily by 10+Constitution modifier+Vecht level. This temporary hp is in effect for an amount of rounds equal to the vecht’s Constitution modifier (minimum one). When the enhancement ends, if the vecht remained above the current hp they had before using vigor, they return to the current hp before using vigor. For example, if a vecht with 105 hp is hit down to 85 hp, and activates vigor, gaining 15 hp (level 2, 18 Con), which buffs him to 100 hp (temporary). If while under the effects of vigor, the vecht takes 13 damage, he returns to 85 at vigor's end. If he takes 18 damage, he returns to 82 hp, as normal. This ability is usable once per day. This cannot be used in conjunction with any of its related abilities.

Furious Intimidation
All Intimidation checks made by the vecht use Strength instead of Charisma. Also, the vecht gains a +1/per 3 vecht levels (minimum 1) bonus on all Intimidation checks.

Harrowing Strike
At level 2, a vecht can use Harrowing Strike once per day. This is increases to 2/day at level 4, 3 at level 6, 4 at level 8, 5 at level 11, 6 at level 14, 7 at level 16, and 8 at level 18. Harrowing strike can produce numerous affects. A harrowing strike attempt must be announced before the attack. If a harrowing strike misses, the attempt is still used up. Harrowing strike may only used once per encounter as a normal attack action.

Tendon Strike
This strike reduces the speed (all speeds requiring use of legs) of the opponent hit by one third of normal speed (rounded up to the nearest multitude of 5). This effect does not include any speed increasing effects. Thus, if the target has a temporary +10 to speed, this extra speed is not factored into the one third decrease. This lasts for an amount of rounds equal to the vecht's strength modifier.

Devastating Strike
This strike deals normal weapon damage plus twice vecht level. The extra damage bypasses damage reduction.

Precise Strike
This strike improves your critical threat range by two. For example, if a vecht's critical threat range is 18-20, this increases to 16-20/x2.

Sundering Strike
This strike initiates a sunder attempt using your weapon. All rolls made to determine whether the opposing weapon or object is sundered, and all damage rolls against said weapons or objects, gain an enhancement bonus (stacking with all other enhancement bonuses) equal to the vecht’s level.

Endurance
At level 3, a vecht gains Endurance as a bonus feat.

Critical Mastery
At level 3, a vecht can increase the critical threat range of all weapons wieldable the vecht has proficiency with by 1. This increases to 2 at level 9, 3 at level 15, and 4 at level 20. This bonus does not stack with any other critical threat increasing effects, instead, it overlaps. For example, if a vecht of level 15 wielding a longsword had the Improved Critical (longsword) feat, the threat increase from the feat (2) is overlapped by the vecht ability. However, all other critical increasing effects that are negated by vecht levels increase the critical threat by one more. So, a the above vecht with the longsword and feat would have a total critical threat range of 15-20/x2. The vecht cannot gain more than one bonus threat range from multiple effects that increase critical threat range. Thus, a keen longsword on the above mentioned vecht would not stack with the bonus from the Imp. Critical feat. All other effects do not stack as normal.

Constitution
At level 5, a vecht gains a bonus to its Constitution score equal to 1. This increases by one every five levels.

Vigor
At level 6, hit points gained at each level (including this one) are increased by 1. This increase does not affect hp increases previous to level 6. Also, 1/day, a vecht can invigorate himself increasing hit points temporarily by 20+Constitution modifier+Vecht level. This temporary hp is in effect for an amount of rounds equal to the vecht’s Constitution modifier (minimum 1). When the enhancement ends, if the vecht remained above the current hp they had before using vigor, they return to the current hp before using vigor. For example, if a vecht with 105 hp is hit down to 85 hp, and activates vigor, gaining 15 hp (level 2, 18 Con), which buffs him to 100 hp (temporary). If while under the effects of vigor, the vecht takes 13 damage, he returns to 85 at vigor's end. If he takes 18 damage, he returns to 82 hp, as normal. This ability is usable once per day. This replaces Lesser Vigor and cannot be used in conjunction with any of its related abilities.

Damage Reduction
At level 7, a vecht gains damage reduction 1/-. This increases by one every three levels past 7.

Improved Vigor
At level 11, hit points gained at each level (including this one) are increased by 2. This increase does not affect hp increases previous to level 11. Also, 1/day, a vecht can invigorate himself increasing hit points temporarily by 35+Constitution modifier+Vecht level. This temporary hp is in effect for an amount of rounds equal to the vecht’s Constitution modifier (minimum 1). When the enhancement ends, if the vecht remained above the current hp they had before using vigor, they return to the current hp before using vigor. For example, if a vecht with 105 hp is hit down to 85 hp, and activates vigor, gaining 15 hp (level 2, 18 Con), which buffs him to 100 hp (temporary). If while under the effects of vigor, the vecht takes 13 damage, he returns to 85 at vigor's end. If he takes 18 damage, he returns to 82 hp, as normal. This ability is usable once per day. This replaces Vigor and cannot be used in conjunction with any of its related abilities.

Die Hard
At level 12, a vecht gains Die Hard as a bonus feat.

Intimidating Shout
At level 12, a vecht gains the use of Intimidating Shout. This ability, usable once per day, requires all non-allied creatures within a ten foot radius to succeed on a Will save equal to vecht level+strength modifer or become panicked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#panicked) for 1d6 rounds, then frightened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened) for 1d4 rounds, and then shaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#shaken) for 1d4 rounds. Every time a creature becomes less frightened as listed above, they may try to reroll their Will save at a -2 penalty, and forego the effects of the fear as if normally resisted. The -2 penalty from being panicked, shaken, or frightened stacks with this penalty.


Greater Vigor
At level 17, hit points gained at each level (including this one) are increased by 2. This increase does not affect hp increases previous to level 17. Also, 1/day, a vecht can invigorate himself increasing hit points temporarily by 70+Constitution modifier+Vecht level. This temporary hp is in effect for an amount of rounds equal to the vecht’s Constitution modifier (minimum 1). When the enhancement ends, if the vecht remained above the current hp they had before using vigor, they return to the current hp before using vigor. For example, if a vecht with 105 hp is hit down to 85 hp, and activates vigor, gaining 15 hp (level 2, 18 Con), which buffs him to 100 hp (temporary). If while under the effects of vigor, the vecht takes 13 damage, he returns to 85 at vigor's end. If he takes 18 damage, he returns to 82 hp, as normal. This ability is usable once per day. This replaces Improved Vigor and cannot be used in conjunction with any of its related abilities.

[JackMage666]

On the whole, it looks pretty nice, but there are some things...


Vigor Abilities...
Yada yada yada.
Half of these abilities are really cool. The other half not so much. The Temporary HP idea is really cool, as it gives you a huge boffer of damage for a short while. Howeer, the +1/+2/+3/+4 HP per HD is a bit much, as they already have the largest HD in the game. If you still want them to have slightly more than the average Barbarian, give them Improved Toughness at Level 1.


Furious Intimidation
All Intimidation checks made by the vecht use Strength instead of Charisma. Also, the vecht gains a +1/per vecht level bonus on all Intimidation checks.
The Str to Intimidate is nice, but the bonus to intimidate is a bit high. Reduce to to something like 1/3 Character Level, and you'll be set.


Harrowing Strike
At level 2, a vecht can use Harrowing Strike once per day. This is increases to 2/day at level 4, 3 at level 6, 4 at level 8, 5 at level 11, 6 at level 14, 7 at level 16, and 8 at level 18. Harrowing strike can produce numerous affects. A harrowing strike attempt must be announced before the attack. If a harrowing strike misses, the attempt is still used up. Harrowing strike may only used once per encounter as a normal attack action.
The Smite Evil of Barbarians. I'll do each one individually, tohough from the looks of them, they should just be deleted.


Tendon Strike
This strike reduces the speed (all speeds requiring use of legs) of the opponent hit by one third of normal speed (rounded up to the nearest multitude of 5). This effect does not include any speed increasing effects. Thus, if the target has a temporary +10 to speed, this extra speed is not factored into the one third decrease.
OK, this works, though do they get a save? How long does it last?


Devastating Strike
This strike deals normal weapon damage plus 5+5/level. The extra damage bypasses damage reduction.
Far, far, far too strong. You've made him into a 1-hit kill machine. Damage a 20th level Vecht would do just from this ability (not including weapon damage or Str) is 105 damage. And no DR blocks it. He's killed the level 20 Lich in 1 hit. Also, is it included in a critical?


Precise Strike
This strike automatically is a critical hit. Normal bonus damage occurs as normal for critical hits.
Far, far, far too strong. There are a number of magic items that rely on Critical hits, and this just makes them abusable. Not to mention a Power Attacking Vect with a Scythe could probably decimate a Great Wyrm dragon in a single hit. And before you think "He'd never hit", Brilliant Energy weapon to the rescue.


Sundering Strike
This strike initiates a sunder attempt using your weapon. All rolls made to determine whether the opposing weapon or object is sundered, and all damage rolls against said weapons or objects, gain an enhancement bonus (stacking with all other enhancement bonuses) equal to the vecht’s level.
This one's not bad, but it's a little unclear. They essentially just get their class level on the Sunder Damage.


Critical Mastery
At level 3, a vecht can increase the critical threat range of all weapons wieldable the vecht has proficiency with by 1. This increases to 2 at level 9, 3 at level 15, and 4 at level 20. This bonus does not stack with any other critical threat increasing effects, instead, it overlaps. For example, if a vecht of level 15 wielding a longsword had the Improved Critical (longsword) feat, the threat increase from the feat (2) is overlapped by the vecht ability. However, all other critical increasing effects that are negated by vecht levels increase the critical threat by one more. So, a the above vecht with the longsword and feat would have a total critical threat range of 15-20/x2. The vecht cannot gain more than one bonus threat range from multiple effects that increase critical threat range. Thus, a keen longsword on the above mentioned vecht would not stack with the bonus from the Imp. Critical feat. All other effects do not stack as normal.
This increases too much too fast. If you really want the ability, give them Improved Critical as a bonus feat at Level 10, for any one weapon.


Constitution
At level 5, a vecht gains a bonus to its Constitution score equal to 1. This increases by one every five levels.
Ability score increases arn't a great thing to give to a base class, or even a Prestige Class.

[Vaynor]

On the whole, it looks pretty nice, but there are some things...


Half of these abilities are really cool. The other half not so much. The Temporary HP idea is really cool, as it gives you a huge boffer of damage for a short while. Howeer, the +1/+2/+3/+4 HP per HD is a bit much, as they already have the largest HD in the game. If you still want them to have slightly more than the average Barbarian, give them Improved Toughness at Level 1.

It's only about 49 bonus HP at level 20, which isn't incredibly much seeing as they would have about 5 times that normally. Should I just have it increase once, to +2, at improved vigor? I would give them improved toughness, but in my opinion that isn't enough.


The Str to Intimidate is nice, but the bonus to intimidate is a bit high. Reduce to to something like 1/3 Character Level, and you'll be set.

I'll change that. One third character level, minimum one sound good?


OK, this works, though do they get a save? How long does it last?

No save, but it only works if they hit. I'll add how long it lasts. Forgot that...


Far, far, far too strong. You've made him into a 1-hit kill machine. Damage a 20th level Vecht would do just from this ability (not including weapon damage or Str) is 105 damage. And no DR blocks it. He's killed the level 20 Lich in 1 hit. Also, is it included in a critical?

Should I just say adds, say, twice vecht level to damage? Trying to make it scale well, because at level one (with just added vecht level) it would be too weak.


Far, far, far too strong. There are a number of magic items that rely on Critical hits, and this just makes them abusable. Not to mention a Power Attacking Vect with a Scythe could probably decimate a Great Wyrm dragon in a single hit. And before you think "He'd never hit", Brilliant Energy weapon to the rescue.

I'll change it so it increases the threat range by one or two or something.


This increases too much too fast. If you really want the ability, give them Improved Critical as a bonus feat at Level 10, for any one weapon.

It's once every 6 levels, not too fast IMO. The whole idea of these guys is they have tons of HP, and lots of criticals. I'll look over it though.


Ability score increases aren't a great thing to give to a base class, or even a Prestige Class.

Do you think it's too powerful, or not powerful enough? It's not clear.


Overall, thanks for the help. :)

EDIT: Made changes, I think it should be more balanced now.

[Mulletmanalive]

Simply put, this class is straight out of whack with the conventional D&D power levels. This is an issue only because you haven't given a guide to the powerlevels of your intended setting.

Put next to the fighter or paladin [i understand that you're going for entirely new classes but hang in there a moment], this class is massively more powerful. This seems minor but you have to factor in the fact that monsters are intended to face fighters and mages and so they'll get squashed by your critter here.

The added damage thing, i'd suggest something like a constitution based smite attack [like the Paladin one] for the extra damage things, specify the extra hp as Temporary hit points and remember that ignoring Damage Reduction in all its forms is probably more useful/powerful than the bonus damage that your Devastating Strike ability involves.

Perhaps i'd be better equipped to comment if i saw your baseline classes [Barbarian is really a 'sits between' class, effectively combining a weakened fighter and some buff abilities] in one place and maybe your CR conversion system for the setting.

[Iferus]

Just a question: where does the name come from?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Put next to the fighter or paladin [i understand that you're going for entirely new classes but hang in there a moment], this class is massively more powerful. This seems minor but you have to factor in the fact that monsters are intended to face fighters and mages and so they'll get squashed by your critter here.

On the other hand, next to Tome of Battle classes it's fine. It's not nearly as bad as a competent warblade, a well-built barbarian, or a heavily-optimized fighter. The original Devastating Strike was in line with most maneuvers, with it only beating the 9th-level Iron Heart strike (+100 damage) by 5 points at level 20.

[Vaynor]

Simply put, this class is straight out of whack with the conventional D&D power levels. This is an issue only because you haven't given a guide to the powerlevels of your intended setting.

Put next to the fighter or paladin [i understand that you're going for entirely new classes but hang in there a moment], this class is massively more powerful. This seems minor but you have to factor in the fact that monsters are intended to face fighters and mages and so they'll get squashed by your critter here.

The added damage thing, i'd suggest something like a constitution based smite attack [like the Paladin one] for the extra damage things, specify the extra hp as Temporary hit points and remember that ignoring Damage Reduction in all its forms is probably more useful/powerful than the bonus damage that your Devastating Strike ability involves.

Perhaps i'd be better equipped to comment if i saw your baseline classes [Barbarian is really a 'sits between' class, effectively combining a weakened fighter and some buff abilities] in one place and maybe your CR conversion system for the setting.

First off, there's a handy link to my campaign setting's site in the Homebrew link in my signature. My setting's classes are pretty powerful overall, and since it's a high magic setting I buffed the melee classes to compensate. I'll make the changes to make the abilities more clear momentarily. I don't quite have a CR conversion system yet, I've just started out my first game in the setting (PbP). At the moment I'm trying to figure out what range of EL they can handle, and if it's much too far above the normal range I'll enact XP penalties for each encounter (so they don't progress too fast because of the higher level encounters).


Just a question: where does the name come from?

It's Dutch, as are a lot of the names of classes in my setting.


v. fight, battle; combat; wrestle; advance through great effort

[Iferus]

It's Dutch, as are a lot of the names of classes in my setting.

I thought so!

But in Dutch, this would be the vechter, as "vecht" would be the singular form of the verb "vechten" (=fighting). Fight would be gevecht.

[Vaynor]

I thought so!

But in Dutch, this would be the vechter, as "vecht" would be the singular form of the verb "vechten" (=fighting).

Oh, I know. The Dutch was just for inspiration. The words aren't meant to be actual translations.

[Mulletmanalive]

On the other hand, next to Tome of Battle classes it's fine. It's not nearly as bad as a competent warblade, a well-built barbarian, or a heavily-optimized fighter. The original Devastating Strike was in line with most maneuvers, with it only beating the 9th-level Iron Heart strike (+100 damage) by 5 points at level 20.

As Warblades are simply better than all the other classes, i don't consider this a fair comparison. I've tested Warblades and in melee they can take apart giants with significantly greater ease than well built mages or sorcerers of the same level, despite these being artillery classes or Rogues, who have sneak attack. The Vecht class is powerful and compared to the unpredictable Crusader or the slow but efficient Swordsage [recharging its maneouvres], i think it is actually slightly above them.

I would never allow an unaltered Warblade into a game i'm running because at its core, i don't think the Fighter is underpowered, just a little dull. I personally got around this by adding in an idea borrowed from Swashbuckling Adventures by AEG:

Veteran: At each level that a Fighter does not gain a bonus feat, they gain 2 skill points that may be spent on ANY skill that the player desires, as if they were class skills.

WW2 British soldiers were known for their skills at sneaking, picking locks and in some cases, pretending to be Germans successfully.


First off, there's a handy link to my campaign setting's site in the Homebrew link in my signature. My setting's classes are pretty powerful overall, and since it's a high magic setting I buffed the melee classes to compensate. I'll make the changes to make the abilities more clear momentarily.

Didn't notice the link, Sorry. If you have Unearthed Arcana, have a look at the Gestalt characters and Recharge Magic sections as they both have guides for adjusting CR to power levels.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As Warblades are simply better than all the other classes, i don't consider this a fair comparison. I've tested Warblades and in melee they can take apart giants with significantly greater ease than well built mages or sorcerers of the same level, despite these being artillery classes or Rogues, who have sneak attack.

[...]

I would never allow an unaltered Warblade into a game i'm running because at its core, i don't think the Fighter is underpowered, just a little dull.

:smallconfused: I think I've found the problem. If all you do with casters is hit point damage, without metamagic or specializing or whatever (since a metamagicked blaster mage should take out giants by itself over 50% of the time), I can see why you wouldn't like Tome of Battle.

[Mulletmanalive]

:smallconfused: I think I've found the problem. If all you do with casters is hit point damage, without metamagic or specializing or whatever (since a metamagicked blaster mage should take out giants by itself over 50% of the time), I can see why you wouldn't like Tome of Battle.

I'm primarily a DM, i've seen some imaginative use of magic and i've done some serious magic messing around in my time [once ended a game in 4 spells, without cheating and reduced a GM to tears]. Then again, i've witnessed fighters choose their moments and defeat demons that the mages couldn't scratch.

The one time I've allowed a Warblade into play, it tended to keep using the same uncounterable ability over and over and did more damage than the mage and cleric of the same level could manage. They only got a look in when things were too busy running away from the Warblade.

If you review my previous statement, I don't dislike the ToB, just the Warblade, which with it's Swift action restore ability and the Weapon Adaption feature is on a whole nother level to the other two. The limited palette of abilities isn't a real downside because most of their options are about hitting things harder and they can use those ad nauseum.

I still don't think Fighters are underpowered, simply because i run encounters in a 5-6 per day format [unlike the 2-3 the book suggests]. Mages and Clerics find themselves a little slowed when we're running this option. Fighters and the like become long term grinders rather than short term blasters.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm primarily a DM, i've seen some imaginative use of magic and i've done some serious magic messing around in my time [once ended a game in 4 spells, without cheating and reduced a GM to tears]. Then again, i've witnessed fighters choose their moments and defeat demons that the mages couldn't scratch.

The one time I've allowed a Warblade into play, it tended to keep using the same uncounterable ability over and over and did more damage than the mage and cleric of the same level could manage. They only got a look in when things were too busy running away from the Warblade.

I'm also primarily a DM, and most of my players use ToB for melee types. If your casters are just using unaugmented damaging spells, then the warblade is most likely going to do better, because they can use their maneuvers more often. If your casters are using walls, summons, buffs, utility spells, and AoE control spells like web, glitterdust, enlarge person, and so forth, then they will easily be outdoing the warblade without competing in the damage arena. If your casters are using damage spells and augmenting them with metamagic, increased CL or DCs, and such, then they easily outdo the warblade on his own turf.

Basically, if you're looking at the base damage capabilities of spells and maneuvers, then obviously the warblade's going to come out ahead. That's the point--martial types, the vast majority of the time, are there to do damage, sometimes with status effects attached.


If you review my previous statement, I don't dislike the ToB, just the Warblade, which with it's Swift action restore ability and the Weapon Adaption feature is on a whole nother level to the other two. The limited palette of abilities isn't a real downside because most of their options are about hitting things harder and they can use those ad nauseum.

The rogue can sneak attack as often as he meets the requirements, without needing to refresh anything, so does "add lots of d6s" better than the warblade. The barbarian can power attack and charge as often as he wants, without needing to refresh anything, so does "get to the enemy and smack him around" better than the warblade. The swordsage (with Adaptive Style) can refresh everything with a full-round action and thereby loses only a few regular attacks to the warblade, so does "attacks with status effects" better than the warblade. The crusader gets his maneuvers back without needing to refresh, so does "keep going all day" better than the warblade.


I still don't think Fighters are underpowered, simply because i run encounters in a 5-6 per day format [unlike the 2-3 the book suggests]. Mages and Clerics find themselves a little slowed when we're running this option. Fighters and the like become long term grinders rather than short term blasters.

Most casters can handle 4-5 encounters a day; 6 is stretching it, but by 7th level or so a caster can toss out 2 spells per encounter without difficulty and still have 1 or 2 left over for utility or buffs. There shouldn't be such a drastic difference in capability that caster players are clamoring to play ToB classes unless the caster players are unskilled or the ToB players are exceptionally skilled.