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yarrowdeathbloo
2019-06-18, 05:50 PM
This is gonna be the first in a series of posts where I attempt to reduce the power gap in the classes within the 3.5e system and I figured where better to start then with the fighter. The goal of this series is not tomake every class as powerful as wizards clerics and druids (that would be silly) but rather to make each class sufficiently competent at it's role for martial characters this will be defined as being able to kill a balor demon 1 on 1 atleast 75% of the time only using materials from the PHB and the sourcebook the class comes from. I will also be going out of my way to devalue magic vs characters with classes with my tweaks to the martial classes as a minor way to nerf magic (and by extension psionic) users.

The Problems
So the fighter has a fair number of thing holding it back as a class most notably

Lack of class features
9 Dead levels
Lack of ways to contribute meaningfully outside of combat


While the last problem isn't exactly unique to fighters it is exasperated by the fact the fighter slowly becomes a subpar combatant at higher levels instead of feeling like a character who is more skilled at fighting than usual warrior.


Tweaks
Since the problem with the Fighter is a Lack of class features I suggest the following:

Class skills:
The Fighter now has base class skills of 4+int modifier/level
The Fighter also has Balance, Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge(Geography), Knowledge(History), Knowledge(Nature), Knowledge(Nobility), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense motive, Spot, and Survival added to its skill list.

Champion actions: at 3rd level you gain 2 Champion Points these can be spent on action granted by this class you regain spent Champion points every round(or 6 seconds when rounds do not apply). You gain an additional Champion point every at level 7 and every 4 levels thereafter. At 3rd level you gain the following champion actions.

Look out(Ex):As a swift action you can spend 1 Champion point to gain a +2 circumstance bonus on spot and listen checks, this lasts until you recover the spent point, you may choose not to recover the Champion point spent on this ability at the start of each round. The bonus granted by this effect is increased by 1 at 7th level and every 4th level after.

Frontman(ex): As a swift action you can spend 1 Champion point to grant yourself and all creatures within 15ft of you a +1 circumstance bonus on saving throws, this lasts until you recover the spent point, you may choose not to recover the Champion point spent on this ability at the start of each round. The bonus granted by this effect is increased by 1 at 7th level and every 4th level after.

Assist(ex): As an immediate action you can spend a Champion Point to grant a creature within 15 ft a +1 circumstance bonus on any skill check. This Bonus is increased by 2 at level 9, level 15, level 17 and level 19.

Parry(ex): At 5th level you learn how to better avoid getting hit. When you are attacked by an enemy you are aware of you may Spend 1 Champion Point to gain your bonus to hit with your current weapon minus your base attack modifier to your ac against that attack.

Counter Blow(ex): Also at 5th level you learn how to better punish your opponents mistakes in combat, whenever an enemy you threaten misses an attack against you, you can spend 1 Champion Point to make an attack against that creature.

Take aim(ex): When making a full attack with a ranged weapon you may choose to spend 1 Champion Point and give up any number of attacks beyond the first, if you do the damage of that attack is multiplied by the number of attacks you gave up +1.

Overwhelm(ex): Starting at 7th level As a swift action you can make a Trip, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder attempt.

Shift(ex):Starting at 9th level as an immediate action you can Champion Point to move 5ft.

Spell Resistance: Starting at 11th level you gain spell resistance equal to your Fighter level, you may choose to allow spells to ignore this resistance.

Mettle (Ex): At 13th level and higher, a Fighter can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Evasion (Ex): also at level 13 you gain evasion as the rogue.

Veteran Knowledge(ex): Starting at 15th level your knowledge of combat grants you a few abilities if you meet the prerequisites:

Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 15 ranks: When you are part of the construction of a fortification or building that construction takes 50% less time.

Knowledge (Geography) 15 ranks: While traveling creatures in youíre traveling with gain a +5ft circumstance bonus to movement and a +5 circumstance bonus on spot checks to notice natural hazards as well as saving throws to avoid injury from natural hazards.
Knowledge(History) 15 ranks: When in combat with a construct you and all friendly creatures within 60ft gain a +5 circumstance bonus on damage rolls and attack rolls against those constructs, additionally each morning you may make a dc 30 knowledge(history) check if you succeed you know the location of any forgotten Crypts, dungeons, armories, or similarly important structures in the local area.

Knowledge(nature) 15 ranks: You gain a +5 circumstance bonus on survival checks to find food and water additionally when scavenging for food you find double what you normally would. Also you gain a +3 circumstance bonus on spot and listen checks against Beasts, Magical Beasts, and plant Creatures.

Knowledge Nobility 15 ranks: You can get the audience of any Lords, Ladies, Kings, Queens or any similar figures at any moment, additionally when you know how to get on the good side of such figures gaining a +8 circumstance bonus on all diplomacy checks as well as a slightly obscure piece of knowledge about the individual in question.

Master Tactician(ex): Creatures capable of understanding your commands gain a +7 circumstance bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against creatures and objects you order them to attack, a creature mustíve gotten the order directly from you or an individual you gave the order directly to in order to receive this benefit.

Martial Mastery (ex): Starting at 19th level your threat range is doubled.

Finishing Strike(Ex): Starting at 20th level when you damage a creature with less than half its maximum HP that creature must make a fortitude saving throw with DC equal to the damage taken or be reduced to 0hp.

noob
2019-06-18, 05:58 PM
Still underwhelming in out of combat utility.
(you get something at level 15 and it is way too late)
also indicate the level where the fighter gets master tactician unless it is a level _ ability(those you get as soon as you have the class even if you have a negative level in it)

yarrowdeathbloo
2019-06-18, 06:09 PM
Still underwhelming in out of combat utility.
(you get something at level 15 and it is way too late)
also indicate the level where the fighter gets master tactician unless it is a level _ ability(those you get as soon as you have the class even if you have a negative level in it)

Yeah fair although the fighter now has a lot more going for it in general other than feat hoarding so there's that at least, but yeah I'll keep working on it just wanted to make sure everything I got here isn't too broken first and having a second pair of eyes always helps with that.

ThatMoonGuy
2019-06-19, 05:55 AM
You didn't need to create a new topic with your updates. You could've just made a new post on that same topic. That would've kept things more well organized with all the info in one place that said, let me chime in [again].


yeah I figured it wouldn't be too much of an issue unless there is already a build that can start getting crits on 14 or lower I think that should be fine, also from what I know about this game so far (it's been a little while since I played) dex builds tend to either be archers or use low damage die weapons so I figured the power disparity wouldn't be too much between fighters with high dex and combat reflexes and other builds but I always can be wrong.


Katanas and falchions are 1d8 and 1d6, respectively, with natural crit ranges of 18. That goes for 15 with Improved Critical/Martial Mastery and 9 with Improved Critical AND Martial Mastery. So a 60% chance of critting in every single attack. Now, 1d8 crit is not much, specially in a Dexterity build... riiiight? Well, you can use Monkey Grip to wield an oversized katana and then use enlarge self to further enlarge the weapon. By then, you'd have a huge katana at 3d6 damage. And I'm pretty sure there's a way to get the katana to be finessable but even if there isn't (since I mostly play Pathfinder) the constant critting will make up for some of the lost damage, specially in the rain of aoo's you'll be getting.





I get that there's more to parrying than size of a weapon but that was just the simplest way I could think of without the number getting arbitrarily high. maybe instead make it your bonus to hit with the weapon without your base attack score would be more reasonable?

That can work but, really, maybe the simplest solution would be making it an opposed attack roll. If your attack hits a DC equal to the opponent's attack, you parry.



I know fighters can do alot of damage but the problem is they just get shown up by casters in like 90% of situations later in the game, and that just doesn't sit right. As for the attack of oppurtunity thing maybe I could replace it with "tactics points" and add a few more utility options at levels 3 and 7?


I feel the same but really don't think that damage solves the question. Doing more damage won't help when the Wizard can Time Stop, summon a bunch of planars, make the opponent useless by throwing Save or sucks aimed at his lowest saves and any of the shenanigans Casters can pull off in combat. And out of combat skills can only go so far. Between the myriad of movement, information gathering and general utility spells that Casters have, have a small bonus to roll when talking to someone doesn't go very far, does it? Not that I am saying that a Fighter must learn spells or anything like that but just that stapling a few extra skill points doesn't help too much at later levels when high level magic is common.



hmmm yeah okay Fighter definitely have a really hard time in those campaigns, I have an updated version here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590686-Fixing-the-Underpowered-Class-1-1-the-Fighter that kinda helps fix the issues you mentioned (most notably by giving more skill points) and I'll post an even further updated version sometime next week when I get the chance.


Again, giving more skills is a start but two points per level don't really add up to that much when you don't have class features that feed on them and both Master Tactician and Veteran Knowledge come online way too late to be in any way meaningful. As a general design philosophy, you might consider thinking that by level 5 a class should have all their most iconic features, the ones that most define their gameplay and image. Anything beyond that is just making that core five levels better. Given that, wouldn't it be better to have the more versatile class features come at levels 3 and 5 instead of 15 and 17?

I think you should give a look into the Spheres of Might system for Pathfinder. They do a lot of cool things for martials and I have a feeling you may like some of that. It's all available online, too.

yarrowdeathbloo
2019-06-19, 02:10 PM
Alright made a few tweaks based on feedback from earlier.

Namely
-Remove bonus aoo's
-Added Champion Points
-added champion actions
-Changed how parry works

Thurbane
2019-06-20, 05:16 PM
Random thought: what if you let Fighters trade a bonus feat, for any (Ex) ability that a character of equivalent level in another class could get?

It might be overpowered, though. Rage is (Ex) and available at level 1. But things like Evasion, Uncanny Dodge etc. would all be fine.

Stevesciguy
2019-06-20, 06:00 PM
Random thought: what if you let Fighters trade a bonus feat, for any (Ex) ability that a character of equivalent level in another class could get?

It might be overpowered, though. Rage is (Ex) and available at level 1. But things like Evasion, Uncanny Dodge etc. would all be fine.

That would definitely be overpowered. It would probably be a very fun and flavorful kind of overpowered when used by the right person, but overpowered nevertheless.

I think you'd need to restrict it quite a bit for something like that to work.

darkbuu_1
2019-06-22, 03:16 PM
Some of this reminds me of a fix I atempted to make a while ago. I wouldn't exactly call it finished or good but it's Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410567-Make-your-own-fighter-(PEACH)) either way.

I might go back to it at some point and fix my fix, until then I think there are a couple of things about it worth saving. If there's anything you want to steal or adapt I'd welcome it.

noob
2019-06-22, 03:24 PM
Some of this reminds me of a fix I atempted to make a while ago. I wouldn't exactly call it finished or good but it's Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?410567-Make-your-own-fighter-(PEACH)) either way.

I might go back to it at some point and fix my fix, until then I think there are a couple of things about it worth saving. If there's anything you want to steal or adapt I'd well come it.

there is a bunch of utility in your fix but not that much.
when will someone do a fighter fix that adds sufficient amount of utility for being comparable to a bard?

yarrowdeathbloo
2019-06-24, 03:23 PM
there is a bunch of utility in your fix but not that much.
when will someone do a fighter fix that adds sufficient amount of utility for being comparable to a bard?

I don't think that anyone ever will since the bard is kinda only note worth for utility and that would be stepping on the toes of one the most balanced classes in the game a little bit too much of course this is just my opinion.

Also the fighter still isn't meant to have all the utility because then what would bards be for?