Better living through chemistry

[jjordan]

Self-scrubbing for reasons.

[snafuy]

In a fantasy-medieval setting I imagine that some researchers will be able to make more progress because they live for longer (elves), have access to magic (pretty much everyone), or aren't hampered by philosophical systems which, in many ways, retarded research (I'm looking at you four humors).
Hey, in D&D universes the four classical elements are real. So are aether, alkahest, and philosopher's stones. The four humors could be too, along with phlogiston, geocentrism, lamarckism, etc.


I'll edit this post to add the stats I'm using later.
Nevertheless, I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.

[jjordan]

Hey, in D&D universes the four classical elements are real. So are aether, alkahest, and philosopher's stones. The four humors could be too, along with phlogiston, geocentrism, lamarckism, etc..That's a really good point. Now I want to sketch out a healing system based on the 4 humors.

[AdAstra]

I do have to ask whether these things are actually practical to make in a fantasy setting, if we're assuming fairly normal resource constraints. I trust you that these things would've been possible to do, especially since I was aware of a couple already, and none are especially out there compared to what actually saw common use. But I think that's the problem, as far as I'm aware these are not entirely new technologies other than plastic. How much benefit could you actually gain out of using these methods compared to the ones that were already in use, and would they be worth the added complexity of manufacture or rarity of involved resources?

Smoke production devices I'm not super familiar with, but might actually be the most effective device here, since I'm not familiar with any equivalent until relatively late in history.

I am aware of several types of poison weapons, including noxious gasses, being used in medieval-era Asian warfare, mostly irritants for the gaseous types. A mixture of pepper powder and ground glass/sand serves as a very effective personal "spray" (just fill a tube/vial with the stuff, uncap and swing the container fast enough to disperse it a fair distance) and might overall be a more practical device for individuals, given that you don't need a waterproof container or syringe. (EDIT: seems that just burning sulfur can produce noxious fumes of sufficient military value for the Spartans to have used it during the seige of Platea in the 5th century BC)

As for the syringe for dispersal of various chemical weapons, I know the Greeks used a syringe/bellows type device to dispense Greek Fire, and glass or other available materials should be sufficient for a syringe-type device. After all, if the Greek contraptions could handle mixtures that spontaneously combusted, they can probably deal with alcohol solutions. (EDIT: looking it up it seems to have been used by the Byzantines in the 10th century onward, and is fairly well-documented as being actually a practical weapon, with both ship-mounted and handheld versions)

I can't see flares as being sufficiently superior to torches and lanterns to warrant using what are most likely exotic materials to most people of that era. If they could function when wet, then there's a case, but from your description it's not clear if they can.

I don't doubt that you can make the plastic, but can you actually make it into complicated shapes, and with the required smoothness to perform the tasks you consider using it for using ancient tech? Glass and ceramic are less chemically reactive, wood seems like it would be easier to use reductive manufacture with. Without injection molding and careful understanding of the material's physical properties, I'm not sure if you would be able to make anything other than crusty lumps, much less tube-and-plunger assemblies with close mechanical tolerances. Maybe flat slabs or simple shapes if you use dies? But again, it seems like other available materials could do similar things, if perhaps not as well.

Overall though, great ideas and things that are often overlooked. I would love to see this sort of thing explored further.

[AdAstra]

Depends on how you look at it. More, it's going to depend on your setting. In a high-magic world where you've got significant settlements existing in isolation you won't have the trade or technology you require to make these things because magic will have retarded the growth of both of these. I envision these as being a middle ground between magic and low-tech in a fantasy-medieval world with fairly robust trade. They are also a way for adventurers to bridge the magic gap where they might not have traditional resources. I've tried to balance so that the expense of production, difficulty of production, and effects make magic a better choice. But this is, hopefully, a nice middle ground.



The brightness of the light might be useful. Being able to choose the color of the light might be useful in some cases. Water-proofing is iffy, honestly. The same measures you would take to protect torches are the measures you'd take to protect flares. And these aren't the sort of flares that burn in water (again, magic will be superior).



The plastic is going to be useful in some regards, but not in others. It's a biodegradable plastic which means it is water soluble (after a while, and there are ways to prolong its life). Having done some exploration of Medieval casting technology I'm confident they could a do a good job of injection molding some fairly complex designs. I was mostly looking at it as a rigid alternative to waxed fabric for containing some of the powders and liquids I mentioned above.

I mean for rigid containers for hazardous materials, ceramics and glass should be superior to plastic based on organics, if somewhat more fragile (which is itself debatable, a lot of early plastics were really brittle). Bamboo or horn/bone tubes should also be fine for powders, and some of the liquids, with pitch, resin, maybe certain plant oils to seal the caps maybe?

I think aside from being the biggest thematic and scientific reach, plastic has the most alternatives that could be readily used instead. Is there anything that would make the aforementioned substitutes unsuitable?

Well, regardless, I’ve had enough tearing down ideas, might as well actually contribute. I wonder if it would be possible to produce compound crossbows as a ballista-esque weapon. A major problem with early metal crossbow prods was that it was difficult to make them reliably springy, so they usually had a short travel and equally short draw length. Compound bows, however, allow for a very long draw length with a lot of energy with relatively minimal travel of the limbs, and can be built to have a less violent acceleration. Perhaps extant materials wouldn’t be light enough to make for good pulleys, but maybe something like mythril or some kind of extremely high strength to weight ratio elven wood? Probably too complex for a personal weapon, but maybe useful enough for a seige engine or defensive battery. With more advanced steels and more consistent manufacture you might be able to store a lot fo energy very efficiently. Maybe enough to fling payloads of your incendiaries and chemical weapons? Then again you could probably launch those payloads with conventional traction trebuchets and such instead

[AdAstra]

Those are all perfectly acceptable and, in some ways and cases, superior. The plastic is mostly carrying over from my alternate materials thread and is useful, in this specific regard for making some, relatively, standard components.


I didn't feel like commentary is tearing down.

Compound bows are cool. My understanding is that they make it easier to draw a bow but don't increase the power of it. I'm still looking at this, though. The ease of draw would make these appealing to my elves, who wouldn't be phased by the need to use advanced materials and construction techniques. They are also the drivers for a lot the advanced materials in my setting: aluminum, titanium-carbide, titanium-gold alloy, titanium-carbide infused silk, artificial/synthetic nacre, and so on.

Well good to hear! I tend to criticize a lot, so I do like to know how people feel about it just in case.

In regards to your edit to the OP, I never thought about putting blinding powder on weapons! That's a lot more info than I was aware of on the subject, so thanks for that.

If aluminum and even titanium are available, then producing components for compound bows should be trivial for good craftsmen with machining tools. The main issue with compound bows for archers, in my mind, isn't just the expense, but the greater complexity. Compound bows have a lot of moving parts that can break or lock up, while regular bows mostly just have to be protected from the elements and strung/unstrung when necessary. That complexity might not be worth it for personal weaponry, especially since, as you said, they aren't much more powerful in the hands of a person. The advantage of compound bows is that they can store and release energy more efficiently for a number of reasons, and if I'm not mistaken would allow you to make a bigger and more powerful bow with the same materials.