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Hzurr
2007-10-07, 08:33 AM
So this is an issue that I run into when DMing, and that I've had interesting discussions with other DMs about, so I figured I'd see what y'all thought.

How readily do you kill the PCs?

The reason I ask, is because I had one DM who never wanted to kill PCs. Barring that we did something very, very stupid, we could always make an argument or whine about it, and he would never actually kill one of the PCs. He'd make up all sorts of convoluted ways to get around it, but in the end he just never really wanted to kill them.

On the boards, I’ve read stories of DMs who have no hesitation over killing PCs, and actually get a small (or not so small) amount of pleasure from it

In general, my policy is that while I don’t like killing PCs, the PCs need to suffer the consequences of their actions, be it doing something stupid like swimming through acid, or if it’s just something like fighting a big, tough monster who hits hard. PCs need to have a genuine fear of giant dragons, or wizards who re-write the laws of physics on a daily basis.

However, most recently, I killed a PC after a monster cast “finger of death,” and the PC didn’t make the save. This one felt really cheap to me, because I wasn’t crazy about the whole “your continued existence depends on this dice roll” thing. (Now, the PC was later raised as an intelligent undead, and is completely pimp now, but I didn’t know that would happen at the time)

What are your policies/thoughts?

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 08:39 AM
The game of D&D, in the spirit that WotC wrote the rules, is already skewed towards the players. They have an advantage over monsters and NPCs (unless you're under a really evil DM). Thus, I treat the PCs exactly as the rules do - impartially. If they die, they die, and that's that.

Mind you, I don't go out of my way to kill them. I may put up some nasty traps or make a tough BBEG, but any encounter I run is winnable, -if they are smart enough-. Thus, my campaigns usually have the side-effect of training whomever I'm playing with in Dungeoneering 101, including such lessons as -

- Always Check for Traps
- Levers are evil, no exceptions
- The answer to "Do we have enough rope?" is always, "NO!"
- That dragon is -not- going to give us its hoard out of peace and love.
- Said dragon is also not going to die just because the wizard has infinite magic missles per day.
- Paladins are stupid sometimes. No exceptions.

AslanCross
2007-10-07, 08:43 AM
1. Stupidity is and should be fatal.
2. If stupidity is not involved, I follow the dice.

My group and I are all beginners. Though the group generally RPs well, they don't work together as a group and often do whatever they think is best at the time. As such, this caused the Rogue to rush into melee when she was at low hit points. She got dropped to -9 and almost died. She was lucky to have the cleric right beside her.

In the same battle, it was the Wizard. He rushed into melee, despite being almost out of close-range spells. He was unlucky to be the only elf in the party left standing, so the hobgoblin power attacked him. He dropped straight to -10.

Since most of my players are used to games where dying isn't such a big thing, they're still trying to adjust. I've been weaning them off this attitude, however. I told them how much a rez costs. They're a lot more cautious now, but still need to learn to work together.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-10-07, 09:01 AM
You don't NEED to kill the PCs to punish them for stupidity (all right, only to punish exceptional stupidity). Killing is final for alot of ppl especially in lower levels and detracts from the action. On the other hand, killing is not nearly as good a punishment at higher levels. Here are some alternatives:

Blindness/Deafness:
The very low level, death-equivalent punishment. The PC is almost completely useless and they have to go on a quest to remove it if they don't have the correct spell to remove it.

Bestow Curse:
A bestow curse can take out a PC out of the action 50% of the time at low levels without being final. Instead of having a BBEG cast phantasmal killer have the BBEG cast Bestow Curse. A BC spell can have any effect you like roughly equal to making a PC fail in all actions 50% of the time. Things like a curse of silence (for mages) or a curse of blindness or clumsiness (for everyone else) is a very good way to punish a PC as well as open up a new quest to remove the curse.

Flesh to Stone:
Just like finger of death, this essentially kills a character but the character is still there. If the PC wants back into the action, they don't just raise dead or roll a new character. The other PCs must save said character.

Teleport/Planeshift:
Send the party's fighter in a random, unknown region or the party's wizard in another world far far away.

Temporal Stasis:
Scary-especially if the spell is tenacious or it is a supernatural ability so it can't be dispelled.

Teleport/Imprisonment:
Not only the BBEG teleports away with a member of the group but also imprisons them in an unknown region. A punishment very difficult to reverse, even in high levels.

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 09:07 AM
See, I don't kill them to punish them. Actually, I never punish them at all. I merely offer consequences, good and bad, for their actions. This may be because I have this little paranoid voice in my head that independantly makes backup plans for everything at any time (including but not limited to - people trying to assasinate me IRL, disruptions of my story arc in game, and an invasion of zombies), so I always have something else to use. Regardless, there's no need to punish players for creativity - and if they're powergaming, just hit them in real life like I do (the first guy to try woke up an hour later with my knife handle imprinted on his forehead, he didn't try again).

DraPrime
2007-10-07, 09:11 AM
If my players do something dumb, try something incredibly risky, or just have bad luck then I let them die. I suspect that my DM is trying to kill my character. We keep running into really tough encounters where my character is often the first one unconcious.

LCR
2007-10-07, 09:34 AM
See, I don't kill them to punish them. Actually, I never punish them at all. I merely offer consequences, good and bad, for their actions. This may be because I have this little paranoid voice in my head that independantly makes backup plans for everything at any time (including but not limited to - people trying to assasinate me IRL, disruptions of my story arc in game, and an invasion of zombies), so I always have something else to use. Regardless, there's no need to punish players for creativity - and if they're powergaming, just hit them in real life like I do (the first guy to try woke up an hour later with my knife handle imprinted on his forehead, he didn't try again).

I think it's a far better idea to kill their characters than to HIT THEM WITH A FREAKING KNIFE.
Jesus, it's only a game.

Firestar27
2007-10-07, 09:42 AM
I really don't want to kill the PCs, but I won't fudge any rolls. I just might make the monster attack the tougher guy.

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 09:43 AM
Man, I hit my friends with various blunt parts of weapons for -less than that-, they've just learned to be faster than my arm.

Or, rather, they've learned to practice, because none of them are yet faster than my arm.

I just don't take B.S. when I'm DMing. If it makes you feel better, it's a lot harder to pommel-smash someone through the internet (though it can be done, don't doubt me).

LCR
2007-10-07, 10:08 AM
I really don't mean to be rude, but don't you think it's slightly uncommon to hit your friends with blunt objects? Sure, there's no harm in the occasional slap on the back of the head, but if your friend was unconscious for an hour after you hit him, you really should think about what you're doing. You're very lucky not to be charged with battery for this.

@bugsysservant: I dig your signature.

bugsysservant
2007-10-07, 10:09 AM
@ Lord Gareth-Seriously, knocking someone out for an hour, likely giving him a concussion, for powergaming is messed up.

Anyway, it depends on what kind of game I run. If resserection magic is as plentiful as it is by RAW, killing characters isn't a big deal. But if I only allow raising as artifact/deity level magic (I generally do) I am a bit more cautious with my players. But I have no qualms with killing my players individually. What's the point of adventuring if you can't die? I do try to avoid TPKs though.

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 10:13 AM
Eh, they get back at me in other ways (ever woken up tied to your bed, with that ugly girl who's been crushing on you for three years in your room, staring at you? I have). 'Sides, he was A. Stoned at the time and B. Just fine, so I call it good.

Anyway, before the thread is derailed, let me ask this - for you DMs who prefer to keep PCs alive at all costs, why do you do so?

Zincorium
2007-10-07, 10:15 AM
Generally, I treat character death in RPGs like character death in an action movie. It happens, but rarely, and it must be both from an impressive (or at least humorously ironic) cause and it can't ruin the fun of the game.

I don't really like characters permanently dying mid-campaign, especially if the player has put some real work into the personality and backstory, and resurrection magic has always seemed like a horrible cop-out. Death can only be taken seriously if it can't be literally bought off with a preset amount of diamond dust.


Lastly, the above attitude is probably a result of the fact that I fundamentally do not 'get' the idea that characters have to die constantly or the game isn't engaging. If the players can't avoid metagaming out of the fear of death that their characters should be feeling, regardless of whether anybody actually has died, then you need to find something else anyway.

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 10:21 AM
See, they don't -have- do die in order to make the game fun/exciting, they just need to know that the -possiblity- exists. I hate games I'm in where the DM always saves your hide - there's no danger. There's no point. Why bother fighting or overcoming challenges at all if there's no negative ramifications to your actions?

Roderick_BR
2007-10-07, 10:31 AM
Eh, they get back at me in other ways (ever woken up tied to your bed, with that ugly girl who's been crushing on you for three years in your room, staring at you? I have). 'Sides, he was A. Stoned at the time and B. Just fine, so I call it good.
(...)
Uh... I wouldn't get near people like that in RL again. It's getting to close to the "PsychoDM"...

As for killing PCs... I see a lot of people gloating about it too, and it sounds lame. I mean, being all happy because you can kill fictional characters?
I see some DMs like to make no-win scenarios, and while interesting for some kinds of stories, it can grow tiring very quickly.

Other than that, I like to make a base story line, and from there, add challenges that can be defeated. If a player try to do stupid things, they'll suffer. Not like, I'll kill the PC if he gets stupid, or add something to the challenge. It'll just happen the normal consequences.
You want to insult the king? You'll be thrown in jail. You want to jump into the dark hole without using hopes of waiting your friend to cast a feather fall or something? Good luck to survive the falling damage.
One character I played once did something stupid (faced off several kobolds armed with crossbows, thinking they wouldn't be able to kill him, and forgot to activate his protections against projectiles). It was an high enough level game, so the others could rise him, but it cost his part of the treasure, and a character level.

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 10:34 AM
Nah, we just like to fun with each other, we're all cool with it. The general rule is thus - you've gone too far if a hospital visit is incurred or irreparable damage is done to one's psyche or personal dignity. So far, no one has broken this rule, except for the time Zed and I got into a knife fight on a bet (eighty dollars richer, though, and no emergency room visit. I love being able to stitch wounds ^_^).

And yeah, I hate unwinnable challenges. That's just...stupid. No. Tough, that I can understand. Impossible? Get out from behind the DM screen.

Ralfarius
2007-10-07, 11:00 AM
Man, I sure wish I could make boasts like Lord_Gareth. On the internet. :smalltongue:

Personally, I've been privy to both the giving and receiving end of PC death. It's a bummer, especially if one particularly likes their character. However, the whole "D&D is a game where people can die. If there's no risk to the characters, the experience is lessened" mantra is quite applicable.

Though I've never really gone out of my way to end characters, I believe in usually letting the dice lie where they fall. Sometimes it's just some unlucky happenstance that finishes one's adventuring career, but that's the nature of the beast. If it makes people feel sad (or laugh), then it's evoking emotion, which is usually a good thing.

I can understand the sentiment that unnecessary death can detract from a game. I don't share it, mind you, but I understand. I think that everything that happens in the game simply builds upon it. If a party loses a cherished member, even early in their travels, it can really stick with them. Gives good opportunity for character development on the fly, rather than everything being all pre-plotted out.

...Eh?
2007-10-07, 11:01 AM
except for the time Zed and I got into a knife fight on a bet (eighty dollars richer, though, and no emergency room visit. I love being able to stitch wounds ^_^).

Wait, did you bet someone you could get in a knife fight, or that you could win in a knife fight?

Lord_Gareth
2007-10-07, 11:04 AM
We bet that we would get into one with a first blood conclusion. No one really believed we would. Hence, eighty dollars richer.

And yeah, I realize it's internet boasting, but hey, if you don't believe me, you're just another internetgoer too :P

Ralfarius
2007-10-07, 11:09 AM
And yeah, I realize it's internet boasting, but hey, if you don't believe me, you're just another internetgoer too :P
Indeed I am. Indeed I am... :smallamused:

Hzurr
2007-10-07, 11:12 AM
See, they don't -have- do die in order to make the game fun/exciting, they just need to know that the -possiblity- exists. I hate games I'm in where the DM always saves your hide - there's no danger. There's no point. Why bother fighting or overcoming challenges at all if there's no negative ramifications to your actions?

That's kindof how I feel. An encounter where 1/2 the party is in single digits or the negatives, but then they manage to win just seconds before the monster or wizard or whatever finishes them all off is the ideal for me. That way, no one dies, but they're all firmly aware of how close they came. If they know that Elminster will magically show up to save their sorry butts when they get in too deep, why not go and attack a god?


As a PC, dieing used to bother me, but not so much anymore. When I first started playing, I got frustrated, but that was because I was still very unfamiliar with what was going on, and creating a character still took a lot of work. Now I've been playing long enough that character creation is just about my favorite part, so if I die and don't get resurected, it's not a big deal because I get to make a new character.

Crow
2007-10-07, 12:31 PM
Well, I'll just say it. Lord Gareth I don't believe you. Not a bit. But you are entertaining. :smallwink:

As far as PC death goes though, I have recently given my players too much access to True Resurrection. I'm going to turn off the faucet soon, so I have a feeling that they're going to be pissed. This is made worse by their atrocious tactics, which causes them to die a lot. Hopefully the game doesn't unravel.

Has anybody else had this problem?

ThunderEagle
2007-10-07, 01:00 PM
when I DM, I play purely by the dice. In the sunless citadel game I am currently running, 4 PCs are dead so far. this has mainly been from poor decisions, but some died from plain bad luck. fortunately, we use redblade for characters, so we can make new ones quickly. the game is also first level, so that may be it.

BRC
2007-10-07, 01:01 PM
As often as possible, but I only GM Paranoia, where your supposed to do that.
If I DM'd DnD I would proably be to chicken to kill them off readily.

Harlequin
2007-10-07, 01:05 PM
Gareth, you're amazing.

Me? I'm a killer. Those of you familiar with my work on the Clever Traps thread on the Wizards boards can attest to that. My players earn their levels. It really is more fun that way, for everyone. I've played characters before, too; my DM sounded a little like the OP's, noone ever died, and I was bored with it. So I put together some 'thinkin' dungeons,' where the PCs actually have to think to survive. It felt like an original concept at the time. Yeah, I always find it a little funny when a PC dies, but if they die doing something really badass, heroic, etc., then the campaign changes. Basically, if a player didn't really, really, really deserve to die, there's a good chance they won't stay dead.

And I HATE the Challenge Rating system. It needs to die. Monsters are fat sacks of XP and loot by the Monster Manual definitions; hence, I take every word of cog_n_taz's advice over on his 'How to get the most out of your monster manual' thread. It's genius work, by the way, you should go check it out.

So in conclusion, yes. My PCs die. My players don't die, though, I'm not like Gareth. :smallwink:

Crow
2007-10-07, 01:10 PM
Do you have a link to that thread?

PlatinumJester
2007-10-07, 01:18 PM
In one of our campaigns we worried more about a party member killing us then the DM.


You should always kill PC's if they are reduced to -10 HP or hit by a spell etc.

The Logic Ninja said that the best Wizards are prepared for anything, yet this should apply to all characters. If you play a fighter then you should invest in items that improve your Will. Likewise if you are Rogue you should invest in things that improve you AC and HP. If a PC dies then it is usually his/her fault.

Enzario
2007-10-07, 01:23 PM
My DMing style is... different. I troll the Wizards CharOp boards and a few others looking for good ideas. When I find them, I don't tell my players about it. But they find out. Oh, gods, do they find out. Personally, I prefer letting the PCs sweat it out thinking that they're going to die eventhough they really aren't in any danger. Then I put them in the same situation later, plus some sort of encounter with an EL of <party's EL +however nasty I'm feeling>.

Example (I found this idea on these boards): A cubic room. Once the party is inside the room, the door shuts, and a countdown begins flashing on the wall (give them, say, 5 minutes). There is a lever dead center in the floor of the room; pulling said lever resets the countdown back to 5 minutes. If the countdown reaches zero, the door to the room opens. This drove my players nuts. Later in the same adventure, I presented them with an identical room. This time, though, there was a poison gas trap that went off at zero, and there was a rather nasty monster standing outside the door (immune to poison, naturally). My players learn very fast not to let their guards down.

Example #2: Two intellect devourers, one of which has taken over an ettercap's body. Web+instant kills, anyone?

Curmudgeon
2007-10-07, 01:56 PM
- That dragon is -not- going to give us its horde out of peace and love. Maybe not peace and love, but I think it will give you its horde (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/horde):
a moving pack or swarm of animals You were probably hoping to get the hoard (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hoard) instead:
a supply or accumulation that is hidden or carefully guarded

Gotta be careful what you Wish for: homonyms can be fatal!

- - -

As for the OP's question, I craft encounters with the appropriate (or lower) CRs, no more than 4 per day, and let the dice do the talking. If the PCs die, they pay the price to get brought back to life or learn a valuable lesson: adventuring is dangerous work.

Yodaman23
2007-10-07, 02:26 PM
I have no qualms about killing PCs when nessecery. In order to use an insta-death spell though, it has to fit the character and situation. The enemy has to be intellegent and want them dead as quickly as possible, or be jittery and caught off guard. I did have one of my players, who attemped to light a fire in a town store, the shop owner cried arson, and then he cut her in half with an axe. The towns people came to put out the fire, see him, the fire, and a cut in half shop keeper. They mob him and beat him to death
I love it when angry mobs of commoners kill a 7th level PC through Attacks of Op and mob rules.

DiscipleofBob
2007-10-07, 02:48 PM
My DM's never seem to be able to kill off the PC's either, and it almost gets boring sometimes. There are times I'd rather have been killed.

For example, in the last session of one campaign, we were fighting a bunch of artificers in a House Cannith Forge. We had almost beaten the first encounter when one of the remaining enemies readies a spell. I try grappling him just to disrupt his spells. (Mind you, I was just getting back into DnD with this character (Fighter 2, Ninja 6, Master Thrower 5 I believe), and was unfamiliar with how spellcasting worked.) THe guy gets off a readied teleport with me on it. Basically, I get teleported into the Merrix's private quarters or whatever, completely stripped naked, tortured, my aberrant dragonmark flayed off, and the only rolls/saves I got to make the entire time were to resist torture, and I failed one out of three, so DM says I automatically crack.

Now, I haven't complained yet. The whole being auto-captured thing was kind of bull****, since I could've probably taken out at least a few of the wizards before going down, but oh well. Next session, my cohorts burst into the room just as the artificers finish preparing their spells. Merrix has already left the building, and the DM says that he'd never let us kill off a major NPC in Eberron. In two rounds, I Escape Artist out of my restraints, get my Belt of Many Hidden Pockets which had all my weapons anyway, and proceed to lay the smackdown on the otherwise fairly easy encounter. I can't help but wonder why I couldn't have done this all myself earlier. Not only do I have to fight the entire encounter mostly naked and my party gets a good laugh at my expense, but I don't even get to take a potshot at any kind of BBEG. Mind you, this was the LAST session. The DM said he might continue the game in another arc, but I decided to retire the character anyway.

While the character, despite me being fairly new and experimenting with stuff, was statistically sound and could do his job well, he was constantly getting screwed over by the DM. In the first encounter of this session, the DM apparently didn't account for the Ring of True Seeing that he specifically gave me last session (as in, literally gift-wrapped and handed to me) when it came to the "cunning" illusion that the artificers set for us. I went from "secondary rogue, secondary damage dealer, and platformer" to "joke of the party" mostly due to BS DM calls, and frankly I'd rather have died and come up with a new character. Would've been more meaningful that way in my mind.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make here is: Please DM's, don't hold back on our account. Killing is a perfectly acceptable element in a DnD campaign. Characters can be rezed, or even better, maybe the player would like to try remaking a character. I know I would have many times. Now, instant save-or-die spells because a character is pissing you off aren't really the best solution, but don't have the baddies get all soft the instant we get to low HP or when they have the advantage. It takes all the drama out of the situation when the bad guys just "decide" to suddenly use poorer tactics and target the guy with the most hit points just because a few people are dropping low.

Hzurr
2007-10-07, 04:58 PM
Me? I'm a killer. Those of you familiar with my work on the Clever Traps thread on the Wizards boards can attest to that.

Heh, you worked on those? I actually threw a few of those at my players. Some they flew through, others were...a bit of a struggle:smallwink: No one died, but there were definately some single digit HPs.

Cogwheel
2007-10-07, 06:13 PM
Do you have a link to that thread?

here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56419). Thanks for the ad, harlequin:smalltongue:

It's not actually a "kill, butcher and maim the characters" thread - common mistake, that - but can be used as such if you wish. Enjoy!

Harlequin
2007-10-07, 08:40 PM
Do you have a link to that thread?

I do, but damn, cog beat me to it. Yeah, Hzurr, I've been a regular contributor since page eight (of 59 now) under the name HarlequinHelsing. If you used any of mine, I'd like to hear how they worked out. Haven't gotten a chance to use all of them yet. PM me if you have so as to not derail the thread more.

horseboy
2007-10-07, 08:49 PM
I learned from the best. Not only did my old Rolemaster GM throw all kinds of crazy stuff at us, he made us roll our own crits against our own characters. And we loved him for it.

Personally, I'm a little softer hearted. We had an instance come up a while back where a monster's magic poison was going to kill a PC at the same init that another PC killed the monster, ending the poison. I just gave the player an option to have the character live or die, since he was making noises about a different character. Ultimately he changed his mind and he only got to see the tunnel of light, instead of all of the other side.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-07, 09:08 PM
If PCs are stupid and die, they die. I make it known before every session that their beloved characters could die.

If they come close to dying becaue I made a mistake, I fudge things enough to keep them alive (but usually changed in some way so as to not make their characters seem imprevious).

If they die because of bad die rolls, I will sometimes fudge things a little to help them avoid TPK, but usually just stick with the rolls.

I actually have come to greatly dislike fudging things since my DM fudged everything. I got sick of mechanics not making sense.

EagleWiz
2007-10-07, 09:38 PM
@ Lord Garath: Just like Lord Voldemort, you have a new title:
He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Gamed-With.
@ All: Well unless A: The dice say "you die" or B: Th charactor is really asking for it, they dont die. If you INSIST on attacking the old man running the magical item shop...

Brawls
2007-10-07, 09:53 PM
My DM's never seem to be able to kill off the PC's either, and it almost gets boring sometimes. There are times I'd rather have been killed.
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Stuff
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So I guess the point I'm trying to make here is: Please DM's, don't hold back on our account. Killing is a perfectly acceptable element in a DnD campaign. Characters can be rezed, or even better, maybe the player would like to try remaking a character. I know I would have many times. Now, instant save-or-die spells because a character is pissing you off aren't really the best solution, but don't have the baddies get all soft the instant we get to low HP or when they have the advantage. It takes all the drama out of the situation when the bad guys just "decide" to suddenly use poorer tactics and target the guy with the most hit points just because a few people are dropping low.

I find myself in a similar situation. We are gaming in a very low-magic world (meaning that ressurection and magic items are few and far between) and we have a party without a dedicated healer. We are at 6th level, currently, and are frequently running into encounters that can be lethal, if the dice go the wrong way. As the party fighter, I am routinely entering encounters at less than full hit points. This is ok from my perspective, it is part of his character to take risks to protect his team, even if it results in his death. Not saying I take stupid risks (usually), but I will stand toe-to-toe with monsters when I'm low on HP to protect the softer targets.

So we were fighting the BBEG's cleric and our party sorcerer drops a fireball on him while I'm in melee range (with my encouragement, I might add). I fail my reflex save, so I loose a bunch of HP. Two rounds later, the cleric flame strikes me. The result is I would have been reduced to like -18 or something final. I said that was fine, we would go on. The DM changed the attack so it was against the NPC Paladin, who could take it. Now, I appreciate the fact that our DM isn't out to get us, but I was a little dissapointed in how he handled the situation. I know that it would be very difficult for the rest of the party to survive without a frontline fighter and that there was no easy manner to get me raised, but there needs to be some risk associated with actions, especially heroic actions that might go in the bad guys favor from time to time.

As for the save or die spells, I think they suck and would much rather see a save or suck spell used instead. Curse me, blind me, whatever, but save or die seems a little too lame to have your fate entirely controlled by a bad die roll.

Brawls

Dausuul
2007-10-07, 10:22 PM
I try to avoid killing PCs except when they do something utterly suicidal and/or it's a major battle where heroic death is to be expected. That said, I also hold to the belief that while PC death is often regrettable, it's not nearly as bad as players knowing that their characters are alive because the DM intervened to save them.

So, if an encounter looks like sliding toward a TPK, I might mark the monsters' hit points down a bit, and sometimes a roll that would have hit gets turned into a miss. (This is one of many reasons why, as a DM, I always hide my die rolls.) But if I announce that a character takes X damage and the player's response is "Oh... that puts me at -11," well, so be it. Better to deal with the consequences of character death than to publicly "take back" some of the damage, or change the attack to target somebody else, or otherwise retcon the PC back to life. What's done is done.

I've had DMs intervene like that in order to save my character, and it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. On at least one occasion I have actually refused to accept the DM-intervention.

You may or may not fudge the numbers as a DM; that's a personal choice. But you should never ever EVER let the players know you're doing it.

Irreverent Fool
2007-10-07, 10:34 PM
I am of the opinion that save-or-die spells are for the players and deathward is for powerful NPCs. If an NPC can cast a save-or-die spell, I think perhaps there should be some warning, such as disciplining an underling with it, or killing off the PC's horse, or just rumors that he slays his enemies with a mere gesture.

That having been said, I don't try to kill the PCs when I DM. They die sometimes. Sometimes the NPCs try to kill them, though. In a recent game, one of my players decide his character was going to light on fire the coffin of a vampire who was doing his best not to kill the PCs. A single slam attack and energy drain was his reward.

I've sent out the save-or-dies as a player and been on the wrong side of them as well. In general, a save-or-die on a PC feels cheap to me. I agree with you here. Try to take at least a COUPLE of rounds to kill them if you must kill them. It makes them feel as if they have a chance and gives them time to do something heroic.

evisiron
2007-10-07, 10:40 PM
Player stupidity is the killer in my games.

Such as (and yeah, these happened):
-Riding a cart into a trapped corridor to reach a group of heavily armed orcs single handedly.
-Rushing up to a lich (+bodyguards) when the lich was next on Initiative (paralysing touch, coup de grace from bodyguards, ouch)
-Hopping out of cover with 4 hitpoints to hit the Dracolich to get the last hit in (randomised Disitegrate, player failed save)

The only deaths that were not 'stupidity' was a TPK when the Samurai (the good rules) decided to fight off a big nasty while everyone else legged it. Of course, the others decided not to leave him (except the druid with all the healing, who legged it to get help) and got torn apart. Thankfully, I had played a mini-plot for such an event, and they got to break out of a necromancers lab, sporting new undead appendages!

Falconer
2007-10-07, 11:18 PM
Example (I found this idea on these boards): A cubic room. Once the party is inside the room, the door shuts, and a countdown begins flashing on the wall (give them, say, 5 minutes). There is a lever dead center in the floor of the room; pulling said lever resets the countdown back to 5 minutes. If the countdown reaches zero, the door to the room opens. This drove my players nuts. Later in the same adventure, I presented them with an identical room. This time, though, there was a poison gas trap that went off at zero, and there was a rather nasty monster standing outside the door (immune to poison, naturally). My players learn very fast not to let their guards down.


Completely, absolutely, positively, BRILLIANT!!!

Hawriel
2007-10-07, 11:24 PM
As a player I have not had many characters die. The few times that parties members did die there was a way to fix it. Party was hit by kill claud I servived and used a wish to bring them back. Party died due to to many iron golems in one room, couldnt fix that. My character servived though. Ive had one or two characters die because I did somthing that wasnt well thought out. I didnt mind to much because well, I did mess up. I had one character death that did piss me off. Not so much because he died but how it happened....


My character the swashbucler was running around a big evil temple. He got there by grabbing a sucubes to try and prevent her excape. Yeah sounded good at the time, he didnt know they could telaport. That ported me right in the middle of the Big evil temple dering a the big evil summoning the party was trying to stop. Thank god I was only in hour 2 of the mind lock buff. I put a bullet in the evil clerics head, sneak attack bang!! tossed the sucubes into the portal to the abyss and ran like hell. I fought a running sword fight with grey dwarves flying imps and evil priests. lost all of them but the female half snake six armed demond. im losing the fight with her but slowly. Eventualy I get grappled by her. So there I am face to face with an evil female demond with my sword arm pinned. With nothing ells to do I dive into my knave character and give her a big kiss with tongue. :smallcool: after my DM stops laughing he determens that I shocked the demone well enough that she losend her grip on me. My left arm was free enough to put my dagger in her rip nat 20! crit confermed. She dropped me I run to the closest door I can find. OHH admantium door the DM tells me. I pick the lock, dash in and slam the door shut. thank god no traps. I use the pitons from my climbing gear to jam the door shut. Hmm room seems kinda important scrolls and such around. Oh thank god another door. I run to it and the DM sais ok make a will save. I go cold. my character is a rogue fighter. Make a will save is somthing I do not want to hear. I failed. I ran right into a symbole if death. :smalleek:

The campain we are running is the bloodstone lands converted to 3rd ed. After I die the DM tells me that almost every door has that damn symbole of death on it. I was very pissed. Not that I died but I freakin died so cheeply, right after such a damn good fight. Being my friend for years and having a soft spot for my knave he retcons by having me wake up in a dungeon cell later. I even tryed convince him that I should have died and let it be part of the story. My soal is captured by the big evil, Im a ghost and I haunt the party, the big evil being a vamp turns me. I guess that would have been to much work. oh well. the way my character died still bothers me, and the fix to it a little. The character is a swashbuckler if hes going to die its going to be with style! Like a hero for bards to sing for ages, with many wemon swooning over the story! Or by an angry husbend/king.

Winterwind
2007-10-08, 12:46 AM
I have never killed a single character yet... which is a bit strange, considering that I tend to DM games with a rather high degree of lethality, where a single gun shot can easily can a character. Of course, none of these games have such a thing as ressurection either (we wouldn't want it either way; all of us think that it trivialises death too much), so that's probably a good thing. I'm not trying to keep the characters alive though - all I do is trying to present them with challenges I believe they can reasonably be expected to be able to overcome. If there are fights, the opponents are usually a bit weaker than the characters - sufficiently strong to be a danger (well, in a system where one hit can kill you, anything willing to attack you automatically is), yet sufficiently weak for the better chances to lie definitely on the PCs side. So far, it worked very well.

Actually, too well, since I have trouble to convince my players now that they truly are in danger, which they want to be in order to increase excitement. I repeatedly had to assure them that there are no character shields. Which is why there is absolutely no dice fudging in our group - they already believe they have plot shields and they don't want them, there is no need to actually equip them with some.

Interestingly, in the situations where it actually got close, I think I was more nervous than the respective players. I have grown attached to those personalities, they are my protagonists, I don't want to see them die and their stories to end. After a particularly dangerous fight (where the opponent was actually for once stronger than the characters - it was the BBEG of the largest campaign I had DMed so far) I was still trembling for half an hour after the end of the fight. Literally.

Emperor Tippy
2007-10-08, 01:23 AM
I have no problem killing off PC's or having my PC's die. I rarely run low level games so the party almost always has the ability to at least cast Raise Dead.

Or the player just brings up a new character and it joins the game. I've DMed games before that went from level 5 to level 20 and at the end of the campaign none of the players were using their original character and none of the original characters had survived.

webgem
2007-10-08, 02:10 AM
I think having a campaign where PC deaths are possible makes things a lot more entertaining, especially when stupidity plays a factor.

I have two favorites I think:

The first is one of my palls decided to try potion mixing, this was in 3.0 so we didn't know the exact rules, but had some AD&D stuff on hand so we subbed that in. I can't remember the exact rules, but at best he could have had some sort of mediocre benefit. We all tried to persuade him that it was terrible stupid to do, but he persisted. He proceeded to roll a natural one on a percentile dice....instant death.

My second is one comes from a half orc wizard with a great club. Sounds silly, and he was. His cause of death was picking a fight with a celestial moose. The wizard charged him for some strange reason and the moose fought back, crit'd, and killed the poor wizard in one hit.

Just Alex
2007-10-08, 02:45 AM
I tend to run mid to high level games, so character death, at least in DnD, is something I'm OK with. With that in mind, I don't go out of my way to kill players, but the Wizard has wisely invested in some items to protect his frail saves versus death effects and poisons, and people have recognized the worthiness of Deathward. Then again, at that level, a failed save means the party is down a member until they scrap together the 5k to bring 'em back, so it's less of a downer.