Team Kegger: How to optimize for this PHB-only situation?

[Endarire]

Intro & Notes
Greetings, all!

A friend and are are preparing for a local game happening in the coming months. I seek optimization advice for our party since I want to be prepared.

I suggested we call our group Team Kegger since we already know the game starts with our characters meeting in a bar (or a tavern or an inn).

Roles to Cover
NOTE: As of this draft, this is how our planned party covers the main roles in the game.

-Primary Melee: Melee Cleric, Rogue (if dual wielding), Animal Companion

-Secondary Melee: Druid

-Primary Physical Range: Cleric Archer (who is also a Cleric)

-Crowd Control: Melee Cleric (tripping and Large+ size), Druid (entangle and Wild Shape), Wizards (grease, glitterdust, stinking cloud, web, tentacles!)

-Primary Socialite: Rogue (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive)

-Primary Trapper: Rogue

Important Notes!
-Expect some house rules to alter the game from RAW. For example, some material will be unlocked after the game starts: This post focuses on making things to be ready for the first session.

-This game is set in a homebrew setting.

-Ability score generation method is to be announced.

-We start at level 1 and will likely reach level 13-15 by game's end. We hope for other chapters after this main first one that continue our adventure.

-We were told not to expect to need to super-optimize to win, but since we know this is D&D 3.5 where the game can be super swingy and we know that characters can die, we'd prefer to be prepared. (I've experienced a level 1 Rogue who went from full HP to dead in one greataxe critical.)

-By default, characters are made with the PHB1 only! For example, subraces like Gray Elves are core, but not allowed

-Single classed characters only! In this game, each class is considered a way of life in a manner much more akin to 2E AD&D. Modified prestige classes for each class have been hinted at as means of subspecialization, but details are undisclosed so far: Just assume the PrCs don't change the base classes significantly.

-Wizard specializations (Conjurer, Evoker, etc.) aren't initially available. Their unlock status is TBD. Thus, assume all Wizards are generalists.

-For now, assume all Clerics are ethos Clerics and can choose their 2 domains.

-We have 2 players and a maximum of 6 PCs in the party at any time. (Minions from classes, spells, etc. don't count toward this limit. Animal companions, special mounts, and summons are OK but no Leadership!) We can swap out party members for others - usually to replace dead party members - but the limit is still 6 concurrent PCs. We strongly considered 4 PCs initially for easier itemization and faster leveling, but we also wanted to have some backup characters should we needed them. We'd hate to lose our only Cleric days or weeks away from civilization.

-All casters are spontaneous! They learn their spells as normal but can freely cast any spell in their repertoire/spellbook without preparation and with no increase in casting time. As such, Sorcerers simply don't exist: They're all Wizards now!

-We were encouraged to pick a mixed race group (Dwarf, Elf, Human, etc.) due to certain dialog/quest options being racially-linked.

-Alignment is nixed. Abilities normally based on alignment like holy word or protection from evil will be replaced with (sub)type-based effects.

-No purely exotic weapons! This means no spiked chains, but bastard swords, dwarven waraxes and the like are available.

-Armor spikes and grenadelike weapons aside from (un)holy water won't be immediately available. Their eventual availability is TBA. (I really wanted to do a max STR Half-Orc dual wielding Ranger who fought with armor spikes and a greatsword.)

-Metaphysical item creation is altered: No craft feats, but consumables (scrolls, wands, and potions) each have a separate craft skill. Alchemy has also been significantly modified. Further details are TBA.

-Metaphysical items are likely notably rarer than standard, but also each much more powerful than normal. Anything more powerful than a 'mere' +1 item is likely affected by this. More details TBD.

-The only metaphysical items likely available for purchase are low-level consumables like healing potions. These are items that require questing or dungeoneering to obtain.

-All scrolls of spells on the Wizard list are considered learnable. This means Wizards can learn from Divine and Arcane scrolls, but, again, only for spells already on his list. (No gaining barkskin from another class's list for Wizards, for example.)

-We're using hexes instead of squares for our combat grid.

Likely Campaign Focuses
-Overland travel and outdoorsmanship. This means hunting, cooking, and navigating.

-Social skills. Plenty of NPCs are expected to be very biased for or against certain races. This also means we should have more than one party spokesman.

-Combat. It's D&D. Fighting is inevitable.

-We've been told darkvision is important, but not why.

-We figured we should expect to find and possibly also fight a variety of SRD creatures and possibly also homebrew creatures.

Known Unlockable Future Content
This stuff has been mentioned as unlockable content. Other details are presently unknown.

-Bards.
-Psionics (Psions & PsyWars).
-Other SRD material.
-Possibly other homebrew material.


Proposed Party 1: Varying Races ("Team Mixed Drink")
Jandriel, Female Dwarf Rogue
Main Roles
-Dual wielding melee specialist OR archer. She may start as an archer then transition to dual wielding.

-Socialite. Remember above that states how a mixed race group is probably best for social opportunities and Rogues are the only core class with all social skills as class. Not even Bards get Intimidate!

-Skill expert!

Preferred Minimum Initial Ability Scores
14 STR
18 DEX +1 per 4 HD
16 CON
18 INT
10 WIS
14 CHA

Skills to Max
-Bluff
-Diplomacy
-Disable Device
-Hide
-Listen
-Knowledge (Local) OR Sleight of Hand
-Move Silently
-Open Lock
-Search
-Sense Motive
-Spot
-Tumble

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan (Dual Wielding)
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Improved Initiative
9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10: [Opportunist]
12: Combat Reflexes OR Two-Weapon Defense OR FEAT
13: [Defensive Roll]
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16: [Slippery Mind]
18: FEAT

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan (Archery)
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
6: Improved Initiative
9: Rapid Shot
10: [Defensive Roll]
12: Manyshot
13:
15: Greater Manyshot (preferred) OR Improved Precise Shot
16: [Slippery Mind]
18: Greater Manyshot (preferred) OR Improved Precise Shot

Questions & Comments
-Considering the rest of the party's composition, which fighting style seems better? Archery is likely safer to her, but drastically reduces her damage output against stuff with DR or that she doesn't sneak attack. I'm leaning toward TWF since flanking seems more viable.

-If she dual wields, what weapons are best?

-My initial intent was to have Jandriel as an Elf, but she has changed to a Dwarf for Darkvision and a CON bonus.

-I debated UMD or Sleight of Hand, but I know civilizations will be in the game and the ability to steal from them seems useful. We have so many other casters already.

Antavius Finn, Male Elf Cleric (Magic & Travel Domains)
Main Roles
-Back-rank Cleric and Cleric archer.

Preferred Minimum Initial Ability Scores
14 STR
19 DEX
14 CON
16 INT
16 WIS +1 per 4 HD
10 CHA

Skills to Max
-Concentration
-Craft (Scroll)
-Diplomacy
-Hide (cross-class)
-Knowledge (Religion)

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan (Archery)
1: Improved Initiative
3: Point Blank Shot
6: Precise Shot
9: Rapid Shot
12: Quicken Spell
15: Improved Precise Shot OR FEAT
18: FEAT

Questions & Comments
-Antavius's combat style is primarily a combination of archery/slings, summons, and spells.

-How important is investing in the Point Blank Shot tree as a core ranged Cleric?

-I considered other metamagic feats, (Greater) Spell Focus, (Greater) Spell Penetration, and Augment Summoning, but I wasn't sure if they were worthwhile on this character nor where to put them.

Amelia, Female Human Druid
Main Roles
-Survival expert, summoner, caster, and a bit of everything. A Druid in short.

Preferred Minimum Initial Ability Scores
14 STR
14 DEX
14 CON
16 INT
18 WIS +1 per 4 HD
10 CHA

Skills to Max
-Concentration
-Craft (Scroll)
-Diplomacy
-Knowledge (Nature)
-Listen
-Spot
-Survival
-Tumble (cross-class)

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan
1: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus: Conjuration
3: Augment Summoning
6: Natural Spell (naturally!)
9: Combat Reflexes
12: Quicken Spell
15: Track OR Feat
18: FEAT

Questions & Comments
-Amelia seems the most straightforward to build since I've built Druids. I wasn't sure what feats to pick starting at 9, though Quicken Spell was a likely choice. I included (Greater) Spell Penetration since we may want to blast or otherwise use abilities that check SR. I'm taking suggestions!

Tyrian, Male Human Cleric (War [Guisarme] & Travel Domains)
Main Roles
-Front-rank Cleric.

Preferred Minimum Initial Ability Scores
18 STR
16 DEX
16 CON
14 INT
16 WIS +1 per 4 HD
10 CHA

Skills to Max
-Concentration
-Diplomacy
-Hide (cross-class)
-Knowledge (Religion)
-Tumble (cross-class)

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan (Melee)
1: Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
3: Combat Expertise
6: Improved Trip
9: Power Attack
12: Quicken Spell
15: Cleave OR Feat
18: Cleave OR Feat

Questions & Comments
-Tyrian's combat style is primarily that of a traditional Cleric gish: Buff, heal, and bash. His primary weapon is a longspear. His backup weapons are sling/light crosbow (range) and morningstar/heavy shield (melee).

-I considered other metamagic feats, (Greater) Spell Focus, (Greater) Spell Penetration, and Augment Summoning, but I wasn't sure if they were worthwhile on this character nor where to put them.

-What should Tyrian's other domain be? I seriously considered Strength for [i]enlarge person, Trickery for Hide as class, and War for guisarme proficiency/focus if we can get it. (I strongly favor Travel for Clerics due to the contingent freedom of movement as well as domain spells.)

-I seriously considered changing Tyrian to a Half-Orc full BAB class until I remembered my experiences at low levels - even with optimized melee characters - who simply couldn't hit reliably. Cleric gives more options long-term, like dumping summoned creatures beside enemies or healing or buffing. Remember that we can still change characters mid-campaign, meaning a Fighter may be useful in certain stretches, especially early.

-I considered Improved Trip, but that takes 2 feats and matters less by the time we get it, probably level 12 due to wanting Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, and Quicken. This proposed build may have it, but I've had mixed feelings.

-Tyrian has alternated between Half-Orc (for higher STR and orcblood) and Human (for bonus feat and skills). I'm leaning strongly toward Human for him due to the bonus feat.

Tienna, Female Dwarf Wizard
Main Roles
-Wizard! This is a combination of buffing, summoning, blasting, mind controlling, and other.

Preferred Minimum Initial Ability Scores
10 STR
14 DEX
16 CON
18 INT +1 per 4 HD
12 WIS
12 CHA

Skills to Max
-Concentration
-Craft (Scroll)
-Hide (cross-class)
-Knowledge (Arcana)
-Knowledge (Dungeoneering) starting at L8
-Spellcraft
-Tumble (cross-class)

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan
1: Improved Initiative
3: Spell Focus: Conjuration
5: [Still Spell]
6: Augment Summoning
9: Empower Spell
10: [Quicken Spell]
12: Spell Penetration
15: [Maximize Spell], Spell Penetration
18: FEAT

Questions & Comments
-Is Augment Summoning worthwhile on a core Wizard? If so, when?

-Blasting can be viable as I've experienced. Sometimes, dealing lots of damage over a large area is enough to this strategy viable.

Rashmuc, Male Dwarf Wizard
Main Roles
-Wizard! This is a combination of buffing, summoning, blasting, mind controlling, and other.

Preferred Minimum Initial Ability Scores
10 STR
14 DEX
16 CON
18 INT +1 per 4 HD
12 WIS
12 CHA

Skills to Max
-Concentration
-Craft (Scroll)
-Craft (Wand) starting at L8
-Hide
-Knowledge (Arcana)
-Spellcraft
-Tumble (cross-class)

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan
1: Improved Initiative
3: Spell Focus
5: [Still Spell]
6: Improved Counterspell
9: Empower Spell
10: [Quicken Spell]
12: Spell Penetration OR (Greater) Spell Focus (something) OR FEAT
15: [Maximize Spell], (Greater) Spell Penetration OR (Greater) Spell Focus OR FEAT
18: FEAT

Questions & Comments
-Is Augment Summoning worthwhile on a core Wizard? If so, when?

-When is best to take Improved Counterspell? I figured level 6 was the soonest since casters tend to be rare or/and not worth spending a feat on for countering before about level 3 spells.

-Blasting can be viable as I've experienced. Sometimes, dealing lots of damage over a large area is enough to this strategy viable.


Backup Characters ("Team Private Reserve")

Oraundo, Male Half-Orc Ranger
Main Roles
-Half-Orc. Sometimes, we simply need an orcblood for quest options.

-Melee unit. Greatsword/improved unarmed strike OR one-handed weapon (longsword or morningstar) and light shield are likely.

-Sneaker. Darkvision and stealth and perception skills help.

Likely Replaces
-One of the Wizards or a melee unit (especially Tyrian).

Preferred Minimum Initial Ability Scores
20 STR +1 per 4 HD
15 DEX
16 CON
16 INT
14 WIS
10 CHA

Skills to Max
-Concentration
-Diplomacy
-Hide
-Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
-Listen
-Move Silently
-Spot
-Survival
-Tumble (cross-class)

Feat & [Special Ability] Plan
1: [Favored Enemy: Goblinoids], Improved Initiative, [Track]
2: [Combat Style: Two-Weapon Fighting]
3: Combat Reflexes
5: [Favored Enemy: Undead]
6: Improved Unarmed Strike, [Combat Style: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting]
9: Power Attack
10: [Favored Enemy: Giants]
11: [Combat Style: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting]
12: Cleave
15: [Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders], Great Cleave
18: Two-Weapon Defense

Questions & Comments
-How should this character change and why?


Proposed Party 2: All Dwarves ("Team Super Kegger")
As the first party, but all Dwarves and with initial ability scores and feats slightly modified.

[Mr Adventurer]

Your "preferred minimum" ability scores seem incredibly high!

[Anthrowhale]

I'm hazy on allowed content but:
1) There may be "deep" versions of races available as per the SRD. Hence, you could have a 'deep halfling' (with 60' darkvision) or a 'deep dwarf' (with 90' darkvision). In particular, a deep halfling rogue may be preferred to an elf rogue since you gain darkvision and better stealth.
2) Isn't that 7 characters? I thought 6 was the maximum? In any case, having fewer characters may be desirable simply due to the mechanical issues of having so many characters with so few players.
3) I'd be tempted to go for an all-stealth party. Clerics could stealth via the Trickery domain + Silence leaving Druids and Wizards stuck at cross-class for Hide.

[Elkad]

No plans to craft your own gear? Might be important, and you have plenty of characters to spread it across.
It's just skill points, but you need to budget those.

I'd at least try to get Wands and Wondrous Items in there, and I might go for everything.

[Eldariel]

Rogues start with archery and transition into TWF. Frontline Rogue would definitely want more than 14 Con though, hence probably preferable as a Dwarf or a Gnome. Dwarves get Stonecunning too, which is nice. Halfling is also fine. Of course they'll be heavily dependent on casters for combat contributions down the line as he badly needs Scrolls and Wands.

Alternatively, you can use a Wizard for low level Trapfinding (18 Int goes a long way even with crossclass Search/Disable Device) and transition into Cleric/Wizard base between Find Traps, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic and similars. This would let you field 2 Druids, 2 Clerics and 2 Wizards, which would almost certainly be optimal. Though there's nothing wrong with 4 Druids, 1 Wizard and 1 Cleric either. Most certainly the heaviest frontline you can bring.


Yes, Augment Summoning is still worth it Core-only for anyone with slight inclination towards summoning, doubly so on a Wizard whose best spells include a number of Conjuration Save-or-X effects. In fact it's better in Core than otherwise, since there's little competition, especially without Craft feats.

EDIT: Oh yeah, PBS chain up to Rapid Shot is irreplaceable. Rapid Shot singlehandedly makes Archery. Manyshot and such are pretty irrelevant, OTOH. If you're restricted to a standard action, just cast a spell. Manyshot is for mooks who lack efficient standard actions.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'll echo Anthrowhale's suggestion of a stealth party. While lack of Darkstalker or HiPS definitely hinders stealth, an all-stealth party that focuses on attacking from extreme range can do a pretty good job of avoiding alternate senses by simply staying far enough away from them. I do think druid is a must if you're mostly doing overland fighting despite the fact that it has to cross-class hide/MS, simply because entangle is just too good with this style of play (long range and huge radius lockdown effect is just amazing if your goal is to start encounters from as extreme a distance as possible), and because this sounds like the type of campaign where spells like endure elements might actually be legit. A wizard isn't a bad pick either; make it an elf for longbow proficiency. Web isn't quite as good of a range as entangle but works underground (a possible concern if you're getting hints about darkvision), and wizards do at least get the darkvision spell and tend to have skill points to spare.

Without fulling statting everything out, I might do something like:


Druid with aerial companion to assist with scouting (the seek trick should do well here, since that specifically has the animal "look for anything that is obviously alive or animate"), focus on perception skills, cross-class hide/MS and focus on long range spells such as entangle and faerie fire. (Long range spells means you probably don't actually need a bow and arrow here, so maybe a dwarf would be a nice pick on this end.)
Elven wizard 1, longbow proficiency + general buffing support + additional lockdown support alongside the druid.
Elven wizard 2, longbow proficiency + divinations + social proficiency spells, and use spare skill points to obtain lots of languages. (Could be replaced with bard if that option gets unlocked.)
Elven cleric with trickery and knowledge domains, longbow proficiency + general buffing support + detection and see-from-afar spells.
Ranger, focused on stealth, tracking and perception, ranged focus.
Rogue, preferably a race with darkvision, focused on (surprise surprise) stealth and trapfinding, ranged focus.

[liquidformat]

I'll echo Anthrowhale's suggestion of a stealth party. While lack of Darkstalker or HiPS definitely hinders stealth, an all-stealth party that focuses on attacking from extreme range can do a pretty good job of avoiding alternate senses by simply staying far enough away from them. I do think druid is a must if you're mostly doing overland fighting despite the fact that it has to cross-class hide/MS, simply because entangle is just too good with this style of play (long range and huge radius lockdown effect is just amazing if your goal is to start encounters from as extreme a distance as possible), and because this sounds like the type of campaign where spells like endure elements might actually be legit. A wizard isn't a bad pick either; make it an elf for longbow proficiency. Web isn't quite as good of a range as entangle but works underground (a possible concern if you're getting hints about darkvision), and wizards do at least get the darkvision spell and tend to have skill points to spare.

Without fulling statting everything out, I might do something like:


Druid with aerial companion to assist with scouting (the seek trick should do well here, since that specifically has the animal "look for anything that is obviously alive or animate"), focus on perception skills, cross-class hide/MS and focus on long range spells such as entangle and faerie fire. (Long range spells means you probably don't actually need a bow and arrow here, so maybe a dwarf would be a nice pick on this end.)
Elven wizard 1, longbow proficiency + general buffing support + additional lockdown support alongside the druid.
Elven wizard 2, longbow proficiency + divinations + social proficiency spells, and use spare skill points to obtain lots of languages. (Could be replaced with bard if that option gets unlocked.)
Elven cleric with trickery and knowledge domains, longbow proficiency + general buffing support + detection and see-from-afar spells.
Ranger, focused on stealth, tracking and perception, ranged focus.
Rogue, preferably a race with darkvision, focused on (surprise surprise) stealth and trapfinding, ranged focus.


So in general I like where piggy is going here though a few comments. On the Cleric I believe Travel is a better choice than knowledge.
On your Buffing/Lockdown wizard focus a decent number of skill points into crafting probably the same for the other wizard.
I would go gnome on druid and dwarf on ranger, druid can get by well as small sized while a ranged ranger benefits from being medium.
Ranged focused rogues are pretty rough to activate SA even more so in core only so the pc might end up being a third wheel.

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

@Anthrowhale: PHB only truly means that. No subraces like Deep Gnome. However, asking for advice on this public forum has shown me that Amelia the Druid was listed twice. Oops! (Maybe she was so important that she demanded repeating.)

@liquidformat: I agree that Bard - were it available - would be handy for Knowledge skills. I still prefer Human for Druid due to Wild Shape replacing most racial traits.

@Eladriel: Changed Jandriel to a Dwarf. Also, no multiclassing in this game!

@Elkad: Only consumables (Wands, Scrolls, and Potions) are craftable. Were Craft Wondrous and Arms & Armor available, more party members would have them!

@All: I updated the original post regarding y'all's advice. Some matters are still TBD.

I still would greatly like to have a Half-Orc Cleric for melee purposes because, as I've learned, sometimes we simply must melee since we couldn't pick all our fights' terms. He's still proficient with light crossbows and slings for ranged purposes. (I swapped his K(R) for Hide due to giving him the Trickery domain.)

As for stealth, maybe. I've generally preferred stealth via invisibility and silence since those are generally more reliable for sneaking, at least in the early game.

What skill allocations would be best for this revised group?

[ericgrau]

TWF rogue is a trap, especially in PHB only. He's gonna drop or die pretty fast, perhaps even with the lower difficulty, the penalty to hit reduces your actual hits from TWF, you can't full attack every round, etc, etc. Archery or thrower rogue is safer, but you'll want an ally to provide sneak attack triggers via grease, glitterdust, greater invisibility or etc. Also don't forget you can sneak attack in both the surprise round and round 1, against monsters who haven't acted yet. Don't bother with manyshot though. It's poor hits/damage and you still only get sneak attack once. A 3rd option is sword-and-board rogue for the AC safety. You can use a masterwork buckler without any nonproficiency penalty, because the penalty equals the armor check penalty of 0.

Cleric archer likewise looks like a trap in PHB only. Without DMM persist he'll be a bit behind, and spending actual rounds on self buffing is a trap. Even when you do rarely get a buff round, you want a group spell like bless or prayer instead. In general you'll want to buff and fix allies. PHB only SoDs aren't that great, so you can still focus your ability scores mostly on fighting. Feats might go mostly to spellcasting, though I know PHB options are limited and you might do fighting feats too. He could be melee or ranged, but most rounds I would cast a spell. Or do GMW and shield other in the morning, open the fight with prayer or another nice buff, and then fight with a weapon or inflict spells or cast something else. If you use shield other, the enlarge spell feat is kinda nice to get eventually. As is the spell imbue with spell ability to share it with others, followed by mass CLW to heal the well distributed damage. Or to simply delay low HP low enough to heal after the fight. Note that its caster level isn't capped as low as vanilla CLW, so it heals more. Other morning buffs go with a rod of extend spell or the feat. PHB only summons are pretty weak, even if you did do the smart thing and take augment summoning. A PHB only druid could do ok with augment summoning, summons and mass buffs though. Magic domain is a great choice because it gives you arcane wand and scroll access. The travel domain provides really great spells and is also a great choice, but note that the domain ability only works against *magical* restraint, which is way worse than actual freedom of movement.

Druid looks great. I'd try for naturally SR no spells at high level rather than spell penetration if possible, but this all depends on your spell choices. Augment summoning is much better on a druid than a cleric or wizard, but still not super great. Druid BFC like entangle and sleet storm is the best option when you can use it. Otherwise summoning and buffing your summons and/or party is a decent plan, and the feats are great ideas.

2nd cleric same comments as first. I don't think a 2nd cleric is a good idea in PHB only. A fighter in place of one would do much better, and then buff the fighter with one or both casters. Two wizards is likewise risky, but much more feasible than 2 clerics.

Similar to cleric, I wouldn't use augment summoning on a wizard. Let the druid summon, and even then PHB summons aren't great, just ok. Your best options will be BFC (walls, barriers, web, sleet storm, wall of force, etc.) > mass debuffs (sleep, glitterdust) > mass damage (fireball) > mass buffs (haste) > 24 hour buffs via spamming hour/level spells. Plus spells mentioned in the beginning to support the rogue. I wouldn't usually bother with single target buffs, single target save-or-dies nor summons. Single target damage is an ok backup plan, especially magic missile for weird situations. Empower spell is a great choice, and don't forget you can also use it on ray of enfeeblement and eventually false life. Greater spell focus and other metamagic are also good PHB choices. Like the cleric or druid you might be a magic item crafter. One or two crafters in the whole party could be nice, if not more since it's easy.

In PHB-only especially I think you need some heavies. You can't just mass casters without splats. Especially at low level you'll be super vulnerable, and even at high level it doesn't dominate that much in PHB-only. One melee fighter at least, perhaps with a guisarme for reach and a ranged backup weapon for emergencies. Preferably a 2nd fighter as an archer or another melee, depending on how crowded the front line is. Have the casters buff & craft for them. Then at least 1 cleric and 1 wizard. The rogue is probably nice to have too, though not essential. If you really must have another caster I'd drop him before going under 2 fighters/barbarians. That leaves room for one more caster, who I would make another wizard. But druid is great too. Druids aren't superb in PHB-only which is why I lean towards a 2nd arcane caster, but they're still decent. And it sounds like you really want a summoner, and druid is the way to do that. So #1 thing is have fun and do what you enjoy. Perhaps nix the rogue for the 2nd wizard, because spontaneously casting any spell in your book is pretty nutso powerful. Divine casters get more options, but a spell book is already plenty of options and arcane casting is stronger. A ranger as one of the heavies could be an ok substitute for a rogue. You get by traps and what not with alternate ways. Puzzle it out, send in a heavy, cleric at the ready to fix what happens to him, etc. Or likewise you can manage without any skillmonkey at all.

Races: Human and dwarf of course. As any class for both really. Half-orc is actually good in PHB-only due to limited feat selection. A guisarme tripper perhaps. As a fighter or barbarian. Pack potions of enlarge person if tripping. Gnome is also a great choice, especially as a caster. Halfling is slightly worse than the other 4 but decent enough to add more racial variety like you want. They can make good throwers, casters, rogues, throwing rogues, or so-so melee. Throwing will start to suck around level 13 or 14 but fortunately the campaign ends by level 13-15. Rather than great weapons you get boots of speed, stat boosting magic items, alchemical items, etc. That's how throwing keeps up without magic weapons. Elf and half-elf are harder to make work, but can still be done plenty ok. Human, dwarf, half-orc, gnome and maybe halfling makes 4-5. Double up on half-orc and/or dwarf, since PHB-only has less feat choices. Or if you really want then elf can be the 6th as any back liner or a druid. But the elf and perhaps even the halfling are a bit overkill on variety and both could be left out.



As for stealth, maybe. I've generally preferred stealth via invisibility and silence since those are generally more reliable for sneaking, at least in the early game.

I agree, it's more reliable that way. Skills should work great in theory but unfortunately that's really DM dependent. Spamming invisibility on the whole party is nice.

[Darrin]

Proposed Party 1: Varying Races ("Team Mixed Drink")
Jandriel, Female Elf Rogue
Main Roles
-Dual wielding melee specialist OR archer. What do you advise?


For a Hard-Core PHB-Only game? Consider a Flask Rogue, Archery feats + Quickdraw, max out Craft: Alchemy. Although that's usually just an invitation for the DM to sandbag any attempts at crafting once you run out of splash weapons.



-Socialite.


I was going to suggest she say, "I'm an urban ranger!" but that works, too.



Skills to Max


Consider adding Forgery and UMD, if you've got the points for it.



Questions & Comments
-Considering the rest of the party's composition, which fighting style seems better? Archery is likely safer to her, but drastically reduces her damage output against stuff with DR or that she doesn't sneak attack. I'm leaning toward TWF since flanking seems more viable.


For straight-up archery, Elf gives you access to the composite longbow, so that's slightly better damage. But you need to be within 30' to get sneak attack... which is functionally equivalent to being in melee, and that kinda defeats the purpose of having a longbow.

This might not surprise you, but... I'm kinda leaning toward TWF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook). For flankers, remember that guard dogs are cheap (25 GP), but mules/donkeys are even cheaper (8 GP). Handle Animal is cross-class for rogues, but you don't need a lot of ranks to hit DC 15, and hiring an animal trainer is also cheap (8 SP per day).



-If she dual wields, what weapons are best?


For TWF, rapier + shortsword works best... although two-handing a longsword with a spiked gauntlet as your offhand might be more damage in the long run, depending on your Str score. A socialite is more likely to carry rapier/shortsword "for ceremonial purposes, of course".



-I recommended Jandriel be an Elf for auto-searching, a bonus to perception and a DEX bonus. (Weapon proficiencies ) This is a strong personal preference. However, I also seriously considered Dwarf for Darkvision, +2 CON, and other misc. bonuses. What say you?


Meh. Dwarven rogue still takes a non-proficiency penalty with dwarven waraxe or urgrosh. Higher Con adds a bit more survivability, so you might last a little longer in melee. If Wild/Wood Elves are available, then they would probably make better rogues, but it sounds like sub-races are verbotten.



Antavius Finn, Male Elf Cleric (Magic & Travel Domains)
[...]
-How important is investing in the Point Blank Shot tree as a core ranged Cleric?


Clerics are already solid, adding some archery feats certainly doesn't make them any worse. If your enemies get up in your grill... you're still a cleric with decent armor and somewhat-decent HP. Archery feats go along well with magic stone. Longbow is nice for when you're running low on spells, but my experience with Core clerics is they spend most of their rounds trying to get their buffs up. Round 1: Bless. Round 2: Bull's Strength. Round 3: Spiritual Weapon, etc. May be awhile before you get to the bow.



Amelia, Female Human Druid
[...]
Questions & Comments
-Amelia seems the most straightforward to build since I've built Druids. I wasn't sure what feats to pick starting at 9, though Quicken Spell was a likely choice. I included (Greater) Spell Penetration since we may want to blast or otherwise use abilities that check SR. I'm taking suggestions!


Improved Unarmed Strike lets you make iterative unarmed attacks while wildshaped.



Tyrian, Male Half-Orc Cleric (? & Travel Domains)


Strength Domain. You're going to want enlarge person in a very bad way.



Skills to Max
-Concentration
-Diplomacy
-Knowledge (Religion)
-Tumble


Consider putting some ranks in Jump, as this will help you jump over obstacles/terrain when charging.



-How important is investing in the Point Blank Shot tree as a core ranged Cleric?


On Tyrian? He laughs at all those sniveling weaklings who flick little tiny spears at their enemies! Get a real weapon, not a toothpick!



-What should Tyrian's other domain be? I seriously considered Strength for Enlarge Person. (I strongly favor Travel for Clerics due to the contingent freedom of movement as well as domain spells.)


Enlarge person. Accept no substitutes.



Tienna, Female Dwarf Wizard
[...]
Questions & Comments
-Is Augment Summoning worthwhile on a core Wizard? If so, when?


Like when you're... casting summoning spells? For Core, there aren't a lot of feats that jump out at me and say, "This belongs on a wizard!" So Spell Focus/Augment Summoning are at least decent, if you're going to do at least a little summoning. I might throw in Quickdraw somewhere, for drawing wands/rods as a free action.



-Blasting can be viable as I've experienced. Sometimes, dealing lots of damage over a large area is enough to this strategy viable.


Well, from a certain standpoint summoning *is* blasting, just sorta spread out over multiple rounds, with proxies, attack rolls, and so forth. Since wizards are now spontaneous casters, you can switch between blasting, buffing, BFC, summoning, etc. as the situation changes.



Rashmuc, Male Dwarf Wizard
Main Roles
-Wizard! This is a combination of buffing, summoning, blasting, mind controlling, and other.


Doesn't seem to be all that functionally different from Endarire.

[Anthrowhale]

Changes I'd suggest:
1) Rogue: Sleight of Hand -> Use Magic Device
2) Elf Cleric: Survival -> Hide (cross-class) The Druid has a better Survival and cross-class hide is good.
3) Female Dwarf Wizard: Search -> Hide (cross-class)
4) Male Wizard: K[Planes] -> Hide(cross-class)
5) Half-Orc Cleric: Diplomacy -> K[Planes]
Now, everyone can hide, everyone can use scrolls, and you can make scrolls from all lists. Furthermore, the wizards can exchange spells in both directions to double up on their known spells. 80+ spells known by level 20 ought to be plenty.

W.r.t. Hide, note that invisibility functions as hide+20, so between range, invisibility, and cross-class hide, you are set into quite high levels.

Skill-wise, you might want someone specializing in Appraise so you can estimate values effectively. Unfortunately, only the Rogue has it in class. Maybe drop Bluff for Appraise? Or maybe have one of the wizards take it cross-class?

Stealth-wise, the elf and the human are liabilities because they lack darkvision forcing a nasty tradeoff where the party must use a light source (revealing it's location) or two of it's members are nonfunctional. You could swap them to Dwarf or Half-Orc. Alternatively, you could swap roles so the human or elf are wizards. Maybe a Druid Dwarf, an Elf Cleric, and a Human Wizard? This leaves one wizard with Darkvision and the Elf cleric functions in an archer role. Note that the wizard level 2 spell 'darkvision' becomes available providing access for the whole party.

Stealth-wise, there is also a gap between "casting spells" and "stealth" unless you have Silent Spell. Hence, I'd suggest taking Silent Spell for the clerics and the wizards, probably at level 3 when it's first useful. You may also want this for the Druid although it may be less pressing with wild shape.

W.r.t. combat, at least one big/strong Cleric should go for tripping with Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes using Guisarme as early as possible. That combo adds a significant level of automatic crowd control. Ideally, this cleric will have the magic domain so as to benefit from the full range of personal-only wizard spells where that is appropriate and useful.

Archery in core without items seems very difficult. Maybe just have the non-front-line cleric just invest more in metamagic than archery? I like two clerics for resurrection redundancy at higher levels.

I'm sceptical about Empower Spell and Maximize Spell in core without rods. It's very difficult to do more damage with an Empowered and/or Maximized spell than a blasting spell of the modified level, particularly when you take into account the fact that saves for the metamagic spell are worse. Given access to the plentiful wizard spells provided by two wizards, it seems like it's just generally better to use a blasting spell of the appropriate level. Instead, Extend is commonly useful. Silent is good for stealth. Quicken has obvious applications. Still/Extend/Heighten are maybe occasionally useful.

You might consider getting Improved Counterspell on some of your spellcasters. Given the massive array of spells they have access to, they could pretty much always counter a spell, allowing you to effectively shutdown enemy spellcasters (one of the most difficult opponents).

Maybe the Druid should take Track to enable full value from Survival?

Leadership is obviously quite a can of worms if it is available.

Power attack on both clerics seems like a good idea. They are the ones with access to full BAB to leverage it.

[Endarire]

@Darrin: Your guide inspired me to want to use a high-STR Half-Orc TWF Ranger (greatsword/armor spikes) until I learned armor spikes weren't in this game. Still awaiting word regarding (spiked) gauntlets' availability for TWF.

@All: This is still a work in progress. Since the game won't start for a significant amount of time and since we can swap out party members to fit various situations, having a 'main party' and some ideas for reserve characters will help. (Rules for making reserve characters is TBA.) Having played a game where Clerics and Fighters were put into similar roles for extended periods, we've witnessed how Fighters seemed like a logical choice in place of Clerics for melee, but Clerics, even unbuffed, are still Clerics. They can still heal party members (and we had lots of fun with things like heal and harm for massive damage!), Turn/Rebuke Undead, and, y'know, drop summoned creatures in convenient places. (Summoned Elementals + giants stuck in webs was fun!)

I put a list of expected party roles in the revised original post with who is expected to fill each role. I also updated some of the original post's party members' stats, but I'm still learning presently heavily toward the current configuration. (I know that much of this is playstyle and preference.) We'd need to play more to get a better feel for when to take which metamagic feats, for example.

Thankee, everyone, for your aid! I'm still interested in hearing more arguments against or for a high Hide party at least early game. (I know we can use certain characters as bait while the others lie in ambush.)

[ericgrau]

With good gear and some all day GMW and/or other buffs you can get good damage with every single full attack, plus trip or some such at the same time as the damage (not either or). Boots of speed, str item, magic weapon damage enchantments, etc. Spell storing weapons would be really nice too. All that together can match a harm, and they can full attack each round and/or split attacks to multiple foes, less problems with immunities and they trip. More HP and AC too. Heal is wonderful for emergencies, but no need to spam it. Plus the druid can do it in a pinch.

IMO main party barbarian (if tripping)-fighter-cleric-druid-wizard-wizard. Alts: rogue, wizard, cleric. Maybe an archer ranger in place of 1 fighter and/or the rogue. Replace a druid and/or fighter in main party as needed with alts. That free spontaneous casting and having all your known spells is super powerful. Even though the divine casters get more choices and it helps them a lot too, they're almost like gishes in a can whereas the wizard is pure casting. So even having 3 wizards is a thought. You can always have another caster sub in for a barbarian or fighter at high level, though in PHB-only buffs and WBL might take them all the way to the level 13-15 end. All that ability to freely swap spells will probably make 5-6 casters out of 6 party members better at the end though. At low-mid level even with free spell selection there's not a lot you can do in the PHB, especially with divine casters. Around level 9 or so you might start to transition to more casters.

You can really cast any spell you know without preparation? Any spell in your spellbook, and divine casters any spell at all? That's gonna be super strong.

If you want TWF instead of a guisarme then it can still keep up in damage in the PHB. Dual spell storing weapons would be nice, as is any per hit effect like weapon spec. Drow poison is nice levels 5-10 if you can find any. The key is that it is on top of your damage, not instead of it, so even if monsters only fail the save now and then it's helpful. More trip attempts is nice too, for example via TWF sickles. And since trips are touch attacks it overcomes the -2 TWF penalty. Or similar with guisarme+guantlet if allowed, sure. I'd do a half-orc barbarian though to get your str check as high possible.

[Darrin]

@Darrin: Your guide inspired me to want to use a high-STR Half-Orc TWF Ranger (greatsword/armor spikes) until I learned armor spikes weren't in this game. Still awaiting word regarding (spiked) gauntlets' availability for TWF.


Armor spikes... martial weapon, not exotic, listed in the PHB... are not... huh. I guess the DM is some kind of purist about "real-world weapons"? (In a game where people wiggle their fingers and globs of acid/fire/electricity shoot out while riding a flying lizard that can talk and also cast spells... sigh.)

I'm actually more partial to Improved Unarmed Strike as an offhand weapon, since you can get some Power Attack damage on unarmed strikes. However, it costs you a feat. There's a Ranger 20 build that uses IUS in the Hard-Core sample builds that would work just as well for a half-orc.

[ericgrau]

I'm actually more partial to Improved Unarmed Strike as an offhand weapon, since you can get some Power Attack damage on unarmed strikes. However, it costs you a feat. There's a Ranger 20 build that uses IUS in the Hard-Core sample builds that would work just as well for a half-orc.

Power attack is a bit of a trap in PHB-only. On average no better than getting +1 damage per hit for most levels. And it gets even worse when combined with a lower attack bonus such as TWF. Sometimes you can even reduce your damage. Besides a fairly low increase in average damage per round, frequent overkill and lack of reliability when needed most means it's actually worse than the average DPR would indicate. It's mildly helpful at low level and during rare circumstances. At high level it's often useless or negative damage, or much less frequently useful. Unless his DM changes something, the limited PHB options on feats means you actually want to try options such as the fighter tree and half-orc to get your damage. With easy crafting and many casters, TWF spell storing will be pretty strong too. Tripping is also a thought. Potions of enlarge person or permanency enlarge person should be easy to do too.

[Eldariel]

The more bonuses you have, the better PA becomes. Tripping and PA go hand-in-hand. +4 to hit plus potential high ground and flan suddenly makes PA very enticing for anyone with maxed hit score. The other high power PA option in Core is Spirited Charge. Particularly if you can cast Quickened True Strike.

[Endarire]

@All: For the melee Cleric, the choice of Half-Orc or Human has bugged me. Half-Orc gives +2 STR and Darkvision, but -2 INT and -2 CHA. Human gives +1 feat initially and +1 skill point per HD (which is +2 per HD compared to a same-INT Half-Orc before its racial adjustment).

I know the higher STR helps with accuracy and damage, but having an extra feat at level 1 may mean getting guisarm proficiency at all versus not.

I'm still favoring Cleric as the melee man due to enlarge person and eventually also righteous might. We're going Huge, baby! (At least that worked in Temple of Elemental Evil for PC, but I'm unsure how RAW it is.)

[Anthrowhale]

Yes, Enlarge Person and Righteous Might should be cumulative. However, only Righteous Might combines with Polymorph at higher levels.

Have you considered taking the War Domain? That could potentially grant Martial Weapon proficiency[Guisarme] + Weapon Focus[Guisarme] at level 1.

W.r.t. stealth, perhaps another strong reason to consider it is for short term buffing purposes. If you can manage to stealth your way into controlling the initiation of half your encounters, then you could apply any desired short term buffs before those encounters. For example, Polymorph[Annis Hag] + Improved Invisibility + Divine Power + Haste + Heroism +Rage + Divine Favor + Magic Weapon + wielding a Guisarme at ECL 7 has:
a modified strength of 33 (=25(annis Hag)+6(enhancement)+2(Morale))
a modified trip check of 19(=11(strength)+4(size)+4(Improved Trip)), implying consistent tripping against medium- opponents.
a modified to-hit of +24/24/19 (=11(Str)+7(BAB)-7(power attack)+1(Weapon Focus)+1(enhancement)+2(luck)+2(morale)+1(haste)+2 (invisible)+4(Prone)), implying basically always hitting.
a modified damage of ~40 (=2d6 +16(str)+1(enhancement)+2(luck)+14(power attack)), implying killing about ~1.5 CR 7 opponents/round with iteratives.

[ericgrau]

The more bonuses you have, the better PA becomes. Tripping and PA go hand-in-hand. +4 to hit plus potential high ground and flan suddenly makes PA very enticing for anyone with maxed hit score. The other high power PA option in Core is Spirited Charge. Particularly if you can cast Quickened True Strike.
You're still usually better off keeping the buffed bonus to hit rather than converting it to damage. Or even when it is barely worth it to convert to damage, the net gain is still close to nothing. Especially when you rely on high level buffs, because the PA situation gets worse at high level. There are rare exceptions like quickened true strike, but he's not allowed gishes. And even if he was it's hard to do much with that when it requires gishing to a 5th level spell slot, uses your swift and only works on 1 attack per round.



W.r.t. stealth, perhaps another strong reason to consider it is for short term buffing purposes. If you can manage to stealth your way into controlling the initiation of half your encounters, then you could apply any desired short term buffs before those encounters. For example, Polymorph[Annis Hag] + Improved Invisibility + Divine Power + Haste + Heroism +Rage + Divine Favor + Magic Weapon + wielding a Guisarme at ECL 7 has:
a modified strength of 33 (=25(annis Hag)+6(enhancement)+2(Morale))
a modified trip check of 19(=11(strength)+4(size)+4(Improved Trip)), implying consistent tripping against medium- opponents.
a modified to-hit of +24/24/19 (=11(Str)+7(BAB)-7(power attack)+1(Weapon Focus)+1(enhancement)+2(luck)+2(morale)+1(haste)+2 (invisible)+4(Prone)), implying basically always hitting.
a modified damage of ~40 (=2d6 +16(str)+1(enhancement)+2(luck)+14(power attack)), implying killing about ~1.5 CR 7 opponents/round with iteratives.
Besides many other challenges, you'll want silent spell for all that too or you'll be detected. Spells must be cast in a strong voice.

Stealth can do many super great things when you can pull it off, but it's hard to pull off and often DM dependent too. Plus even if the DM is permissive, how do you insure you get the drop on enemies when you're coming to them and yet they don't get the drop on you the same way? Or if you do succeed half the time, you'll want to use some resources for that, but more resources for the other half which are the more difficult fights. I'd start with invisibility and silence, maybe skill ranks in 1 or 2 party members. See how well it works before investing a feat, several spells of raised spell level or other resources. Even with hardly any resources put in if you can stealth successfully you can gain a ton of benefits. And once you get to the point of a strong victory from well planned tactics and so on, there's nothing to gain from winning harder than that. Focus the rest of your resources on other more difficult situations like for when the enemy gets the drop on you. That's why false life is one of my favorite wizard spells, for example. Ambushers love to hit the clothy, it helps even in the surprise round, and then you can hit back round 1 rather than fleeing or dropping a defensive buff.

[Anthrowhale]

Spells must be cast in a strong voice.
Anyways, I generally agree with your analysis. As a minor side note: the RC "clarifies" that spells can be cast quietly via a Sleight of Hand check (eh?) opposed to a Spot check (wah?).

One of the things that I like about stealth is that it scales up to very powerful opponents. For example, it gives the party a decent chance of surviving the 5% of encounters which are "Overwhelming".

[weckar]

Considering the options given, why not play 6 druids?

[Anthrowhale]

Considering the options given, why not play 6 druids?

No remove curse? No access to wizard spells? No ability to find difficult traps?

[weckar]

Been years seen I've seen remove curse come up, summoned creatures are excellent trap detectors, and what do you need wizard spells for, really, that druid spells cannot solve?

[ericgrau]

I think 6 druids would be doable, but in PHB-only a mixed party would be a lot stronger. The PHB druid can do lots of things, but isn't that great at a lot of them. Wizard BFC is far more reliable (many druid BFC require specific situations or have other limitations) and better in general, wizards have more and better spell options in general, other classes will specialize better in other roles, it's better to buff them than self buff, etc. It's not what can they do, it's how well can they do it. If this was a 2 man party maybe 2 druids would be a strong consideration, but with 6 I'd much rather specialize.


summoned creatures are excellent trap detectors
This for example. The summon will pick up some traps not all, something as simple as a door trap thwarts it for example, it's single use with a short duration when there may be many rooms to check, and to direct it you also need to blow a copy of speak with animals. Otherwise your only option with a summon is to let it attack obvious foes. So 2 spell slots per room, perhaps not even the whole room in the short walking time, and it's not even that reliable at finding traps. They aren't excellent trap detectors, they're just trap detectors, and mediocre ones at that. A barbarian who waltzes into traps with a cleric behind him is an excellent alternative to a rogue. Summons are barely an alternative at all.

I'm leaning towards 1 druid, and only because it seems like Endarire likes to summon. Otherwise I might say 0. The flexibility does help a little bit too, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on it. More like he'll do one or two main things most of the time such as summon, primarily to add bodies to combat. Flankers, minor damage, blocking a path for a round or two, to help prep for an ambush now and then, etc. And then while he might sometimes be backup for a couple other things, recognize that he can't do them all at the same time. If he is needed as backup it's just as a so-so backup of 1 thing at a time.

[Anthrowhale]

If I had one character, it would probably be a Cleric [Trickery, Magic]. They are the only spellcaster that can stealth, they can draw on both wizard and cleric spells, they can access full BAB, and they have full armor. Druid would probably be my second choice. Druid+AC is superior in combat, particularly at early levels, but the ability to stealth and use wizard scrolls seems more important for a loner.

With two, I might go with Cleric/Druid or Cleric/Wizard. Druid adds substantial frontline power while Wizard has a wide collection of spells. Invisibility and Teleport seems very telling for example.

With three, I might add Rogue to the two solution. Trapfinding is great and disable device is sometimes just necessary. I'm skeptical of "summon monster for trapfinding" because the duration is so short and finding a trap is not quite equivalent to disarming it. The many other skills of a rogue are a great complement and rogues can buff powerfully with willing spellcaster team members directly and via UMD.

With four, I'd probably go with Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Rogue for access to essentially all spells and skills.

With five, maybe an extra Druid for frontlining? Or an extra Cleric for frontline/redundancy? Or an extra Wizard for x2 wizard spells? Or a Bard to round out the skills roll and provide a little more diversity?

Perhaps part of the calculation is also that an all-druid party is kind of boring.

[Endarire]

@Anthro: Some of your points I address below, but as for Tyrian's domains, I agree that Strength is likely better than War due to self-accessing enlarge person. I'm also unsure if the War domain will be available for guisarmes in this game.

@All Thank you, all, for this continued discussion! I enjoy the flying of creative sparks!

Why not 6 Druids? Simply put, I want us to have a variety of options. Druids are strong, yes, but in this environment, they can't do everything. I've seen grease shut down fights and make foes fall prone so many times it was funny. (Grease was the main reason that, in another (low-level) game, I chose Sorcerer over Warmage. We knew we were fighting lots of mooks, but making foes fall down and go boom for AoOs was much more useful than another few low-level magic missiles.)

Having played a Druid in a many-sourced game from level 1 to 10ish over the course of years, our group noticed its negatives and positives. Lesser restoration is great until you need something more that Clerics grant. Wild Shape is great, but in a core-only environment, Druids simply can't access a lot of uber-useful forms like they can elsewhere. Yes, SNA I makes Wolves for trippers (and we've used that to great effect at low levels), but Wizards do crowd control (especially Conjuration-based crowd control) so much better. I'm unsure how this game will treat the finding and disabling of traps, but the standard assumption is that we need a Rogue. My friend and I soon arrived at Anthro's class conclusions: We went Rogue/Wizard/Cleric/Druid as a 4-man party but realized that low-level survival was important, meaning we should have more units. And since I'm playing with a Druid-loving friend who learned her love of Druids from me, this group will have at least 1 Druid, but probably only 1 for now since our party has other needs.

We also discovered during our years of playing another game that forum logic is theory-focused. Sometimes, you simply want a Warmage for the group instead of a Psion or a Wizard or a Sorcerer or another class because that's the best option. The class and build form the base material, but we're still playing a game instead of merely planning one. (Our GM for that game was well-familiar with forum logic and super powerful 'tier 0' material, but didn't want that sort of game for us. He already GMed that sort of game with others before he met us.) Sometimes, it's the size of the thing, but also how it's used.

We've gotten hints that this game is meant to be using 3.5's rules, but is meant to feel a lot more like 2e where every item, race, and class was a significant decision, and everything had an origin, and the GMs (plural) simply don't yet want to invest in supporting all of the core content: They'd rather focus on what they think is best for the world and game and let things be unlocked later. Also, I don't expect punches to be pulled because this is an open world and our choices are still ours. That's a large reason we suspect we can and should have reserve characters.

We've also been told explicitly that seafaring will be featured in this game, but we aren't yet sure how this will work. The GMs have mentioned they're still determining how they want to run naval combat and other maritime aspects.

[Eldariel]

One big Druid thing is Spot + Wis-focus + Wildshape forms with innate bonus. No other class offers similar long range detection ability. Plural helps, especially on low level animal companion tanking.

[Eldariel]

You're still usually better off keeping the buffed bonus to hit rather than converting it to damage. Or even when it is barely worth it to convert to damage, the net gain is still close to nothing. Especially when you rely on high level buffs, because the PA situation gets worse at high level. There are rare exceptions like quickened true strike, but he's not allowed gishes. And even if he was it's hard to do much with that when it requires gishing to a 5th level spell slot, uses your swift and only works on 1 attack per round.

That's why Spirited Charge is so nice. Spirited Charge + full Power Attack is pretty sublime. It's hard enough to get True Strike on a core full BAB though; Cleric is probably the closest and quickening True Strike as a Cleric is quite hard. However, the +4-+5 is generally worth it to convert into PA damage. If you have 18 starting Str with all level-ups to Str (+5 inherent on level 19) and full BAB, Mw. weapon at level 3, +2 Str at 7, +4 at 11 and +6 at 15 combined with GMW, you're looking at:

Level 1: +5
Level 2: +6
Level 3: +8
Level 4: +9
Level 5: +10
Level 6: +11
Level 7: +13
Level 8: +16
Level 9: +17
Level 10: +18
Level 11: +20
Level 12: +22
Level 13: +23
Level 14: +24
Level 15: +26
Level 16: +28
Level 17: +29
Level 18: +30
Level 19: +33
Level 20: +35

Or thereabouts. Add +4-+5 on that and you're trumping the average AC of each level (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J7KongPAMxJCKuSlDFIyRKj7YPWsTP2fJUh_tuS16Qs/edit#gid=1854430337) fairly consistently, which is where PA begins to add significant returns generally. And that's without getting into stuff that hugely improves PA like Boots of Speed/Haste, Rage, flanking, Polymorph/PAO, etc. In general, you can get about twice more from Power Attack than something like Weapon Specialization would give you if you manage to trip your target. Level 12 for example, we have +22 to hit for 2d4 + 3 enhancement + 10 Str or +22/+17/+12 for 2d4+13. Average AC for ECL 12 opponent is 21,75 rounded to 22. Power Attack for -3 raises our damage from average 45,54 to 51,48. Weapon Specialization would raise it to 50,60, so Power Attack gives us about 1 more damage than Weapon Specialization with nothing. However, add Trip and we can PA for -6 for 52,47 > 69,30 damage while Weapon Specialization would only give us 58,30 so about 11 damage less than PA. Add Boots of Speed and the difference is further exacerbated: 72,27 > 107,36 at PA -7 while Weapon Spec is about 80,30. In this case Power Attack is already giving about 27 more damage than Weapon Specialization. The more bonuses you get, the bigger the difference grows. And of course, if you're restricted to a single attack and particularly one with multipliers such as a mounted charge, the advantages of Power Attack are further amplified.

[Elkad]

That's why Spirited Charge is so nice. Spirited Charge + full Power Attack is pretty sublime.
<snip>.

Sure, if it always works.
Block charging with terrain and you have a problem. Along with enemies holding spears, counter-charge, Stand Still, abrupt jaunt, immediate actions, and a host of other things.

If you charge and miss, you've delayed any riders on your weapon (poison, anchoring, trip, etc).

If you have damage riders on your weapon (flaming, sneak attack, etc), the equation shifts back towards not power attacking as well.

Also the case if you have a large pool of base damage. Enlarged Goliath with Greater Mighty Wallop for 8d6 doesn't want to ever power attack except against the very the lowest AC opponents. And that's online at CL8. A halfling can hit 8d6 with augmented Expansion and GMWallop when the caster is CL12.

Of course you can offset that with Shock Trooper, but you leave yourself open to a horrible death on the following round as every badguy still standing focus-fires you and hits your AC11, probably with power attack of their own.

Chasing big damage numbers looks cool. In practice, it just makes your character more linear and easier to defeat.

[Eldariel]

Sure, if it always works.
Block charging with terrain and you have a problem. Along with enemies holding spears, counter-charge, Stand Still, abrupt jaunt, immediate actions, and a host of other things.

If you charge and miss, you've delayed any riders on your weapon (poison, anchoring, trip, etc).

If you have damage riders on your weapon (flaming, sneak attack, etc), the equation shifts back towards not power attacking as well.

Also the case if you have a large pool of base damage. Enlarged Goliath with Greater Mighty Wallop for 8d6 doesn't want to ever power attack except against the very the lowest AC opponents. And that's online at CL8. A halfling can hit 8d6 with augmented Expansion and GMWallop when the caster is CL12.

Of course you can offset that with Shock Trooper, but you leave yourself open to a horrible death on the following round as every badguy still standing focus-fires you and hits your AC11, probably with power attack of their own.

Chasing big damage numbers looks cool. In practice, it just makes your character more linear and easier to defeat.

I find this whole point perplexing. Obviously you're not gonna do it if it doesn't work. Like why the hell would you charge into readied actions or terrain you can't cross or whatever? That'd just be silly, and a line of spears or a caster readying an action or whatever is pretty obvious. However, if we're talking Core, the opportunity cost is almost zero since you literally don't have other useful feats to take and having a mount around is convenient anyways. Basically none of the options you mentioned also exist (except elemental weapons, which ultimately are kinda ripoffs due to prevalent elemental resistances down the line). You do it if the situation lends itself to it and when it doesn't, you don't engage in melee combat 'cause taking a full attack to the face is ill-advised unless you first got to whack them nice. That's why you have spells, so enemy chumps can do the "walk to melee range and take one ineffectual attack"-shtick instead and you can full attack slaughter them or spell slaughter them or do whatever you want.

And actually, even with 8d6 base damage you still can get mileage out of Power Attack if you have multiple sources of hit bonus. Such as a successful Trip and...say, Rage. Not that it really matters. But yeah, in core PA is just the best source of bonus damage for characters with high BAB (obviously, casters don't need it) and Spirited Charge is about the only way to close into melee higher up without taking a full attack while giving nothing back in return (on this side of pouncing Druids and Shapechanging Clerics). So you probably want to have access to such options (though mounted combat without feats is still fine; 2x damage is much better than no multipliers at all).

[Elkad]

Because after the first few levels, you can expect the majority of fights to have difficult terrain, or guys with spears, or flying/burrowing monsters you can't just spur your horse at, or defensive grease spells in front of them, or just rooms so small you can't charge.

And I don't know about your table, but mine has significantly higher ACs than that chart. But lets stick to the chart.
Looking at SRD CR12 single monsters (encounters less-likely to have terrain/situational advantages for your L10 party), I see that the average listed is kinda silly (22 on that chart, which is 2pts lower than CR11 and 5pts lower than CR13 - The AC1 black pudding is costing the whole average nearly 2AC on it's own) . It's more like 27 for anything you want to be in reach of.

Core, spirited charging on a mount of some sort, 10' of reach with your lance. L10. BAB10, +8str, +2charge, +2 weapon. +20 to hit. You may have a couple more points from bard, haste, etc.
Vs AC27, using a 1d8 lance, the power attack calculator says PA for 3. But it's only 0.9pts of damage better (call it 3 points once you triple it through spirited charge). You do a whopping 40 damage. Weapon Specialization (Lance) would be better.
Tack on a prone opponent, haste and 3 points of bardsong (for another +8), and you start to get somewhere. 8x3 extra damage

So what can we charge?

Basilisk, Greater Abyssal - AC17, admittedly terrible. This is a good candidate for ubercharging. Assuming your mount makes it's save. Maybe you should charge from straight above it and let your now-stone griffon smash it to a pulp.
Dragon, Brass, Adult - AC27, plus Mage Armor at least, and maybe Shield or something. 31-40 in practice. And it flies faster than any mount you'll have.
Dragon, Bronze, Young adult - AC26+buffs & flight
Dragon, White, Mature adult - AC28+buffs & flight
Frost Worm - AC18. Melee isn't a threat, but it's a bag of hitpoints, and the breath+explosion when it dies is a problem. Soften it up and get out of range so the wizard can finish it off.
Inevitable, Kolyarut - AC27+invisibility. Charge candidate
Kraken - How many adventures don't use open water at all? A lot. AC20 is bad, but near 300hp and the fact you don't EVER want to be in a grapple with one means charging seems a poor idea. And it has reach on you, so it's just going to snatch you and your seahorse up before you get in attack range.
Leonal - AC27, +4 Deflection if you are evil. You can charge this one, and trip it even.
Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal - AC26, 300hp, effectively always hits (+34), has reach and improved grab like the Kraken, so you can't get to it.
Ooze, Elder Black Pudding. OK, you can power attack this. For full value even, since it has an AC of 1 But only with your backup mace if you expect to do damage. 300hp again, and it outreachs you and has improved grab.
Purple Worm - outreaches you. Terrible at AC19. On the AoO it's going to grapple your horse and then swallow it whole next turn.
Cryohydra, Eleven-Headed - AC21, terrible, but it's huge and gets 11 attacks. Better 1-shot it.
Pyrohydra, Eleven-Headed - Same as above
Roper - AC24. 50' touch attacks, that grapple your horse and stop the charge, plus probably render it too weak to carry you.

Every encounter with class levels is going to have ACs like the dragons, unless it's immune to melee or something.


So unless someone trips the monster for you, or you have a source of True Strike or Touch attacks (unlikely given the OPs rules), PA is something your charger just doesn't need.
Of course when you can't charge but can full attack it's decent. It doesn't get good until you have a source of full attack all the time (pounce, travel domain, etc).

[Anthrowhale]

I believe the disagreement about PA is really about optimization level. In particular, in a well-functioning/well-optimized party, the to-hit bonus is much higher, allowing for PA to be much more heavily used. On the other hand, if you are going solo, or have a dysfunctional party it is difficult to eak out significant gains from power attack.

[Elkad]

I believe the disagreement about PA is really about optimization level. In particular, in a well-functioning/well-optimized party, the to-hit bonus is much higher, allowing for PA to be much more heavily used. On the other hand, if you are going solo, or have a dysfunctional party it is difficult to eak out significant gains from power attack.

If the party is optimized, either the DM will use higher CR creatures, or optimize "appropriate CR" ones to offset.* Either way their AC climbs proportionally.

*There is a 3rd case where the DM does neither and the party roflstomps everything. Unlikely except when the DM is new.

[Anthrowhale]

If the party is optimized, either the DM will use higher CR creatures, or optimize "appropriate CR" ones to offset.* Either way their AC climbs proportionally.

*There is a 3rd case where the DM does neither and the party roflstomps everything. Unlikely except when the DM is new.

This sounds like agreement now---if PA is something that a DM responds to, then PA matters in a way that many other choices do not.

As for whether or not a DM will fully compensate by upping AC, I expect many DMs allow at least some of the benefits of PA to be retained, partly because melee combat is otherwise underpowered, partly because rewarding cleverness and team play has some value, and partly because increasing the AC of all monsters requires effort.

[Endarire]

I updated Tyrian to have the Travel & War [guisarme] domains. He has Imp Init at level 1 to go sooner.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd be tempted to get Improved Trip at level 1 instead of Improved Initiative. Going first is somewhat less important at early levels relative to later levels. On the other hand, Improved Trip is probably more applicable at the early levels than the later levels since you'll often have small foes (for example goblin or kobold) that are relatively easily tripped and relatively incapable of escaping prone as standing up provokes an attack of opportunity.

[Endarire]

At what levels is tripping (especially with Improved Trip) likely most viable? I know that, in general, melee units become bigger as levels progress.

[Eldariel]

At what levels is tripping (especially with Improved Trip) likely most viable? I know that, in general, melee units become bigger as levels progress.

It's more-so enemy type dependent. If it's walking/legged/winged, it can be tripped, but if it flies magically (like most casters), it can't. This means most monsters are fair game for tripping (and Polymorph and its ilk give you access to sufficient size to trip regardless of enemy size), but it's less often useful against NPCs (and monsters that have casting such as some Outsiders - but they tend to have native flight meaning flight magic is often less interesting and useful). Which is where the problem lies: it's impossible to say the level range the DM uses NPC casters on.

Standard Trip Cleric with Enlarge Person + Righteous Might can do basic trippery from like 1-10 no problem and Dispel Trippery against casters. It's a great tool to have in your toolbox though just for the fact that it's generally a passive strategy that you can benefit of without using combat actions, and one that can be very helpful. Particularly once you get a permanent PAO going.

[Endarire]

What do you mean by Dispel Trippery?

For Tyrian's feats, what say you to this?

1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Initiative
(rest the same as above)

[Eldariel]

What do you mean by Dispel Trippery?

Well, Dispel magical flight, then Trip.

[Anthrowhale]

For Tyrian's feats, what say you to this?

1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Initiative
(rest the same as above)

This seems good to me.

I might go for Power Attack@6 instead of Improved Init (pushing that off for 3 levels) because it makes you a better melee combat specialist in the context of your party. For solo play, Improved Initiative is probably more important.

W.r.t. metamagic, Extend Spell (always) and Silent Spell (if you use stealth tactics) are typically superior to Cleave. Cleave is good for burning through mooks faster, but mook-busting usually isn't the most challenging form of combat. So, my preference is something like:
1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3. Combat Reflexes
6. Silent Spell (if stealth) or Power Attack (if not)
9. Power Attack (if stealth) or Extend Spell (if not)
12. Improved Initiative
15. Quicken Spell (Quicken Divine Power works @L15)
18. Extend Spell (if stealth) or ?? (if not)

[EldritchWeaver]

In regards to "-Overland travel and outdoorsmanship. This means hunting, cooking, and navigating.":

There are enough spells that this will be only a concern at low-levels. Creating food and water eliminate the need to forage and variants of fly and teleport eliminate most or all encounters/challenges of navigation and traveling.

[Eldariel]

This seems good to me.

I might go for Power Attack@6 instead of Improved Init (pushing that off for 3 levels) because it makes you a better melee combat specialist in the context of your party. For solo play, Improved Initiative is probably more important.

W.r.t. metamagic, Extend Spell (always) and Silent Spell (if you use stealth tactics) are typically superior to Cleave. Cleave is good for burning through mooks faster, but mook-busting usually isn't the most challenging form of combat. So, my preference is something like:
1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3. Combat Reflexes
6. Silent Spell (if stealth) or Power Attack (if not)
9. Power Attack (if stealth) or Extend Spell (if not)
12. Improved Initiative
15. Quicken Spell (Quicken Divine Power works @L15)
18. Extend Spell (if stealth) or ?? (if not)

Well, Quicken Spell should be level 12 at latest IMHO (I pick it on 9 with Warrior Clerics); Quicken Divine Favor is really good on level 9 already. Divine Power/Righteous Might + Quicken Divine Favor and you're combat-ready with just surprise round's worth of spells (generally Righteous Might particularly with the trip setup). I don't think Silent Spell is worth that much just because preparing your spells with it is just uneconomical. Rather try and craft a Rod of Silent Spell or Lesser Silent Spell; it's generally good enough to get the first action after all. And you can cast stuff like Invisibility further away, out of easy hearing range.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, Quicken Spell should be level 12 at latest IMHO (I pick it on 9 with Warrior Clerics); Quicken Divine Favor is really good on level 9 already. Divine Power/Righteous Might + Quicken Divine Favor and you're combat-ready with just surprise round's worth of spells (generally Righteous Might particularly with the trip setup).

If you're fighting one combat between rests, this seems viable. At the 4 / rest rate recommended by the DMG you are better off just using Divine Power for several more levels. Quicken is also iffy in the sense that there are many other spellcasters in the party so it's only really needed for personal-only short duration combat spells of which the Cleric has only 3 (Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might). So, my sense is: L9: barely useful, L12: useful, L15: needed.


I don't think Silent Spell is worth that much just because preparing your spells with it is just uneconomical. Rather try and craft a Rod of Silent Spell or Lesser Silent Spell; it's generally good enough to get the first action after all. And you can cast stuff like Invisibility further away, out of easy hearing range.

My understanding is that there are approximately no permanent magic items in the game and all spells are spontaneous (with no casting time penalty) so the value of Silent Spell is potentially much higher than normal.

[Eldariel]

If you're fighting one combat between rests, this seems viable. At the 4 / rest rate recommended by the DMG you are better off just using Divine Power for several more levels. Quicken is also iffy in the sense that there are many other spellcasters in the party so it's only really needed for personal-only short duration combat spells of which the Cleric has only 3 (Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might). So, my sense is: L9: barely useful, L12: useful, L15: needed.

Well, the 4/day is just a generic guideline and not a very useful one at that. Day-to-day difficulty varies as does encounter difficulty. Sometimes you need to punch way above your weight class and sometimes the encounter is extremely weak where level 1 Divine Favor cast off standard action is all you need (if even that). For those particularly difficult encounters (Dragon-level fights), having access to the biggest buffs pronto is extremely important since you need to start damaging ASAP. It's for these cases where preparing Quickened Divine Favor is quite handy; you won't bring it out in an average fight but when it's clear you're fighting something big and dangerous, you will want that +3/+3 (that amounts to +9 damage with Power Attack, though often against big enemies the hit bonus is worth even more).


My understanding is that there are approximately no permanent magic items in the game and all spells are spontaneous (with no casting time penalty) so the value of Silent Spell is potentially much higher than normal.

Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially a spell level behind can be extremely problematic as Silent Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15mins into the future. It's harder for a preparing caster to guess both, which spells you want and whether you want them as silent spells than just silent spells and the cost of losing a spell level when you guess wrong is very salient. It's not without its uses but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. The OP did state there's an alternative system for creating magic items based on skills.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, the 4/day is just a generic guideline and not a very useful one at that. Day-to-day difficulty varies as does encounter difficulty. Sometimes you need to punch way above your weight class and sometimes the encounter is extremely weak where level 1 Divine Favor cast off standard action is all you need (if even that). For those particularly difficult encounters (Dragon-level fights), having access to the biggest buffs pronto is extremely important since you need to start damaging ASAP. It's for these cases where preparing Quickened Divine Favor is quite handy; you won't bring it out in an average fight but when it's clear you're fighting something big and dangerous, you will want that +3/+3 (that amounts to +9 damage with Power Attack, though often against big enemies the hit bonus is worth even more).

I agree with this. I just consider a surprise round less likely than stealth providing multiple rounds for buffing leading to Silent Spell over Quicken Spell.


Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially a spell level behind can be extremely problematic as Silent Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15mins into the future.

I feel like you are arguing against yourself here. I could say: "Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially four spell levels behind can be extremely problematic as Quicken Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15 minutes into the future." If Silent Spell is problematic, then Quicken Spell seems extra problematic, right?


It's harder for a preparing caster to guess both, which spells you want and whether you want them as silent spells than just silent spells and the cost of losing a spell level when you guess wrong is very salient. It's not without its uses but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
The cleric here is spontaneous so this concern seems irrelevant.


The OP did state there's an alternative system for creating magic items based on skills.
Yes, but only consumable magic items.

[Endarire]

Metaphysical Items (Permanent): There are permanent metaphysical items in this game, but details are TBA. We expect these to be generally rarer and more powerful than typical items. Metamagic rods or the equivalent are TBA.

Improved Initiative: I like this because it means going before more of the enemies. Sometimes, this means better melee positioning or better casting or just protection from flat-footing.

Silent Spell: I've found Still Spell to be more useful. Metamagic feats' worth beyond Quicken Spell is TBA.

[Eldariel]

I agree with this. I just consider a surprise round less likely than stealth providing multiple rounds for buffing leading to Silent Spell over Quicken Spell.

Stealth is far more situational, I think, since the party has no Hide in Plain Sight or similar abilities and thus hiding is entirely dependent on there being something to hide in in the first place. Many dungeon terrains provide little in that regards, let alone overland terrains.


I feel like you are arguing against yourself here. I could say: "Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially four spell levels behind can be extremely problematic as Quicken Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15 minutes into the future." If Silent Spell is problematic, then Quicken Spell seems extra problematic, right?

The cleric here is spontaneous so this concern seems irrelevant.

I forgot about the spontaneous detail. In that case, I completely agree, Silent Spell is probably very good. I like Quicken Spell on normal preparing Clerics on 9 specifically because Quickened Divine Favor is such a good, easy solution to equalizing numbers in combat regardless of the situation (and thus prepareable), but on a spontaneous Cleric more situational metamagic gets way, way better.

In this case, I completely agree with you: Silent Spell is probably worth knowing simply because spontaneous metamagic is extremely strong and you can only deploy it when necessary.

[Endarire]

After hearing back from a GM, he said that Silent Spell will likely only matter for stealth (and, by extension, silence). I like having the option, but the importance of stealth is to be determined.

[Endarire]

I'm familiar with the guides of LogicNinja and Treantmonk, but what Wizard spells warrant special mention here?

[Anthrowhale]

I'm familiar with the guides of LogicNinja and Treantmonk, but what Wizard spells warrant special mention here?

The existing guides heavily cover core, so you are pretty set that way. Adding in the constraint of nearly no items, I'd expect buffs to rise in import. Most of those are transmutation spells but a few come from other schools. Enlarge/Reduce person, Alter self, Darkvision, (Greater) Magic Weapon, Magic Circle, Fly, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, etc...

If you can find any way to get a ring of spell storing, that unlocks quite a bit of further buffing potential.

[Endarire]

Ring of (Greater) Spell Storing or a comparable effect: How would this notably help? I suspect it's most useful for personal buffs like righteous might.

[Eldariel]

Ring of (Greater) Spell Storing or a comparable effect: How would this notably help? I suspect it's most useful for personal buffs like righteous might.

That's mostly it, spells like Alter Self, Righteous Might, etc. are open to people unable to cast them with the item. It's an alternative to Magic Jar buffing.

[Anthrowhale]

That's mostly it, spells like Alter Self, Righteous Might, etc. are open to people unable to cast them with the item. It's an alternative to Magic Jar buffing.

Magic Jar buffing seems great for long duration things (Contingency or Permanency being extreme examples) while the ring is good for short duration buffs, particularly those which are much better on another character.

True Strike: Open encounters with a smite or deliver a must-hit attack.
Blink: The rogue strikes as an invisible creature for 5 rounds.
Tenser's Transformation: A comprehensive buff for a non-spellcasting frontliner.
Antimagic Field: Situationally hilarious for a non-spellcaster.
Iron Body: A solid buff for non-arcane casters.

[Endarire]

Magic jar buffing? That seems spiffy! Explain in more detail how that works!

[Anthrowhale]

Magic jar buffing? That seems spiffy! Explain in more detail how that works!

Wizard possesses nonwizard via Magic Jar, casts personal-only spells, and then ends the possession. For example, this would allow a wizard to use permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) to grant Arcane Sight, Darkvision, and See Invisibility permanently to a nonwizard.

Because Magic Jar's targeting is iffy, this should generally be done without time pressure.

[Endarire]

Wow! Thankee!