Calculating Difficulty

[Dmdork]

In my D&D game there's home brew, or usually modules that have home brew around it. I was wondering about encounters with other adventurers. For example, the players (A party of five 5th level characters) encounter three 3rd level half Orc Barbarians . If I were to 'eye up' a moderate CR, that would be it. I was wondering if there is a way gauge this kind of thing rather than guess, so I don't wind up TPKing the group, or worse, they breeze through it :smallannoyed:

Usually, I use the Dungoens and Dragons 5th Edtion Encounter calculator, which works great (used it all through the Tyranny of Dragons campaign). But there's no way to calculate this kinda thing because the calculator just isn't set up for that.....

[MeimuHakurei]

While there's a lot of talk about not using PC stats for enemies, it's supported by the system and even offers a CR guideline (two-thirds of the character's level = CR)

So you're having three CR 2 enemies vs. five 5th level characters, which makes it a medium encounter.

[DeTess]

In my D&D game there's home brew, or usually modules that have home brew around it. I was wondering about encounters with other adventurers. For example, the players (A party of five 5th level characters) encounter three 3rd level half Orc Barbarians . If I were to 'eye up' a moderate CR, that would be it. I was wondering if there is a way gauge this kind of thing rather than guess, so I don't wind up TPKing the group, or worse, they breeze through it :smallannoyed:

Usually, I use the Dungoens and Dragons 5th Edtion Encounter calculator, which works great (used it all through the Tyranny of Dragons campaign). But there's no way to calculate this kinda thing because the calculator just isn't set up for that.....

Am I correct in assuming that your problem lies in calculating the CR of the homebrew monsters? If that's the case the DMG, starting at page 273, has the method for making custom monsters and calculating CR.

[Dmdork]

While there's a lot of talk about not using PC stats for enemies, it's supported by the system and even offers a CR guideline (two-thirds of the character's level = CR)

So you're having three CR 2 enemies vs. five 5th level characters, which makes it a medium encounter.

So a 3rd level human fighter battlemaster with a feat and point buy stats is a CR2? And by that rational, what would a 4th level wizard be a CR 3? rounding down or up?

[Great Dragon]

So a 3rd level human fighter battlemaster with a feat and point buy stats is a CR2? And by that rational, what would a 4th level wizard be a CR 3? rounding down or up?

5e is a little harsh on Casters.
In Lost Mines of Phandelver, the Evil Mage is a 4th level caster (Sorcerer or Wizard not specified) with no Subclass Abilities, and is only a CR 1.

While it can be a tough fight, the Party usually wins. The Mage calling in allies can swing the battle
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The Archmage is an 18th level caster, but only a CR 12.

This one tends to overwhelm my average (4 PCs) 12th level party. Even if they have Initiative.
Most times, I tend to save the Archmage for around 16th level.

[Man_Over_Game]

The big problem with PvP combat, as you've realized, is how "swingy" it is. One side wins, or the other does, and there's not a lot in between.

Players in games generally deal insane amounts of damage, but have low HP. This is to make everything feel so "dramatic", when all the damage being flung around is enough to kill you 3x over. This is fine, because badguys have more HP and deal less damage than players. Play any Final Fantasy game, and you'll see exactly what I mean. But as soon as one of your characters is Confused and attacks one of your other characters, someone usually ends up dead instantly. Same exact concept.

My recommendation is to change your NPC-PC enemies to have these changes:


+50% HP
-3 Weapon Damage (or -30%)
-50% of all spell slots



What this does is that it lowers the damage potential of your NPCs but also increases their survivability. Mages have less burst capabilities, and weapon users deal slightly less damage.

Two Fighters that would normally kill each other by round 4 now don't kill each other until round 6. It stretches out the fights by about 50%, just enough for tactics and planning to be relevant when they couldn't before.

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As for calculating comparable difficulties, I'd work backwards from CR to determine what's an equal fight. That is, determine what CR difficulty the players can take on, then work backwards to create a different party that could ALSO take on the same CR.

[ThePolarBear]

While there's a lot of talk about not using PC stats for enemies, it's supported by the system and even offers a CR guideline (two-thirds of the character's level = CR)

I have no idea where you got this info from, i might have missed something somewhere. Could you please provide a source?

[Dmdork]

While there's a lot of talk about not using PC stats for enemies, it's supported by the system and even offers a CR guideline (two-thirds of the character's level = CR)

So you're having three CR 2 enemies vs. five 5th level characters, which makes it a medium encounter.

This seems to be the easiest and clearest way to gauge encounter player vs player. I would round up, based on some of the other comments about the arch Mage being too strong for a CR 12. This comes closest to answering my question, thank you.