Elf PCs - What do you do with extra long rest time

[nickl_2000]

So, every time you take a long rest you get an extra 4 hours that other PCs don't get. What do you do with that time?

[KorvinStarmast]

So, every time you take a long rest you get an extra 4 hours that other PCs don't get. What do you do with that time?
My wood elf monk tended to stand watch so that the others could rest.

[GooeyChewie]

Stand watch in case of an attack.

Or if we’re somewhere we don’t need to stand watch (like in a trusted inn), I’d probably come up with some menial task based on my background. Maybe study some maps with a Sailor background, or polish my armor with a Soldier background, for example. Basically, something I can tell everybody I’m doing in one quick sentence to help give my character some personality without bogging down the game.

[diplomancer]

See if the DM is fine with you brewing potions.

[CNagy]

I allow my players to continue learning tool/language proficiencies that they've already started the formal learning process on (assuming they have a text to study or some tools to work with, within reason,) so my Elf players tend to sink their 4 hours into that.

[Aprender]

To clarify the question in case there are those that don't know: an elf long rest is 8 hours long which is the same as any other PC. They only spend 4 hours of it in trance as opposed to 8 hours of sleep for other PCs. Non-elf PCs are allowed to be awake doing light tasks such as keeping watch for 2 of those 8 hours.

I imagine while traveling through the wilderness, elves get saddled with more clean the camp, cooking and sharpening weapons duties than non-elves.

One way or the other, don't let it bog down the game either as a player or a DM. If the pally is spending a long rest sleeping in full plate, then I wouldn't sweat too much about who is doing the dishes. :)

[Cikomyr]

My mom spends the time knitting Magic. See the other thread ;-)

[Rara1212]

A lot of the extra rules on tools in Xanathars guide to everything can take an hour or a long rest, so you can get either 4x 1h and 1x long rest option or 2x longrest: (Full rules are in the Tool Proficiencies section under Dungeon Master's Tools chapter)



ALCHEMIST'S SUPPLIES: As part of a long rest, you can use alchemist's supplies to make one dose of acid, alchemist's fire, antitoxin, oil, perfume, or soap for half the shop price. 50gp for 1 pound of raw materials to use for this.


BREWER'S SUPPLIES: As part of a long rest, you can purify up to 6 gallons of water, or 1 gallon as part of a short rest.


DISGUISE KIT: As part of a long rest, you can create a disguise. You can have only 1 without drawing attention unless you have a bag of holding or similar.


FORGERY KIT: As part of a short rest, you can produce a forged document no more than one page in length, in a long rest you can make a 4 pages document


MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS: As part of a long rest, you can compose a new tune and lyrics for your instrument.


PAINTERS SUPPLIES: As part of a short or long rest, you can produce a simple work of art.


SMITHS TOOLS: With access to your tools and an open flame hot enough to make meta l pliable, you can restore 10 hit points to a damaged metal object for each hour of work.


TINKERS TOOLS: You can restore 10 hit points to a damaged object for each hour of work. For any object, you need access to the raw materials required to repair it. For metal objects, you need access to an open flame hot enough to make the metal pliable.


WEAVERS TOOLS: Assuming you have access to sufficient cloth and thread, you can create an outfit for a creature as part of a long rest.


WOODCARVERS TOOLS: As part of a short rest, you can craft up to five arrows. As part of a long rest, you can craft up to twenty. You must have enough wood on hand to produce them.

[Rara1212]

To clarify the question in case there are those that don't know: an elf long rest is 8 hours long which is the same as any other PC. They only spend 4 hours of it in trance as opposed to 8 hours of sleep for other PCs. Non-elf PCs are allowed to be awake doing light tasks such as keeping watch for 2 of those 8 hours.

I imagine while traveling through the wilderness, elves get saddled with more clean the camp, cooking and sharpening weapons duties than non-elves.

One way or the other, don't let it bog down the game either as a player or a DM. If the pally is spending a long rest sleeping in full plate, then I wouldn't sweat too much about who is doing the dishes. :)

This was changed in a recent errata, an Elf's long rest is now only 4h of meditation and nothing else.


Edit:


Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed
https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

[Aprender]

Cool. I didn't know that. Thx for teaching me. :)

With that said, I thinks it's dumb. Elves shouldn't get a mechanical benefit that de-syncs them from the party. Of course, I still harbor a lot of animosity towards how Tolkien glorified elves and how Gygax kept that going in D&D 1e through at least 3.x (I didn't play 4e), so take my criticism with a big cube of salt.

[Man_Over_Game]

Cool. I didn't know that. Thx for teaching me. :)

With that said, I thinks it's dumb. Elves shouldn't get a mechanical benefit that de-syncs them from the party. Of course, I still harbor a lot of animosity towards how Tolkien glorified elves and how Gygax kept that going in D&D 1e through at least 3.x (I didn't play 4e), so take my criticism with a big cube of salt.

Yeah, it's been bounced around a lot with the same concern. First it was "Elves only need 4h", then it was "Elves need 8 hours but they only meditate for 4, because it'd make elves superior, right?" And now it's been changed again.



Personally, though I like being a transmutation wizard, turn a block of stone into wood, then spend my time carving it into impossibly beautiful shapes. Sell it to some dwarf or some rich noble or something.

[nickl_2000]

I was actually thinking about a High Elf wizard using the time to script spells into a spellbook.

[Segev]

Clearly, the elven sorlock uses the time to take 4 short rests and pump pact magic into spell points and back into sorcerer spell slots. >_> <_<

[Man_Over_Game]

Clearly, the elven sorlock uses the time to take 4 short rests and pump pact magic into spell points and back into sorcerer spell slots. >_> <_<

Bonus Question: What do you spend the spell slots on when your DM says your Sorcery Point value determines the maximum you can have?

[Segev]

Bonus Question: What do you spend the spell slots on when your DM says your Sorcery Point value determines the maximum you can have?

That depends a lot on what that means, since he's created a house rule, now, and I don't know exactly how that breaks down. ^^;




More seriously, extra watches are a thing. Getting an extra half-day's worth of crafting is amazing on magic item creation, too.

[Vogie]

The first couple of days, they don't do anything. After that... well, lets just say the Carousing table is used. Frequently.

[RedMage125]

Clearly, the elven sorlock uses the time to take 4 short rests and pump pact magic into spell points and back into sorcerer spell slots. >_> <_<
Ah, yes, the "Decaf Coffeelock".

Bonus Question: What do you spend the spell slots on when your DM says your Sorcery Point value determines the maximum you can have?
Simple, before you do that, you start off by changing your starting Sorcery Points to spell slots (nothing says you can't have more spell slots than your initial number), then convert warlock slots to points, then back to sorcerer slots. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Man_Over_Game]

That depends a lot on what that means, since he's created a house rule, now, and I don't know exactly how that breaks down. ^^;

Simple, before you do that, you start off by changing your starting Sorcery Points to spell slots (nothing says you can't have more spell slots than your initial number), then convert warlock slots to points, then back to sorcerer slots. Wash, rinse, repeat.



As in, the DM only says you can have Sorcery Points up to amount indicated on the Sorcerer table. Which just translates to Sorcerer Point Maximum = Sorcerer Level. And spell slots are capped in the same way (using Multiclass rules when applicable).

So if you have 2 Sorcerer Points, are a level 3 Sorcerer, and you convert a spell slot to gain 4 Sorcery Points, your Sorcery Points cap out at 3. I do this at my own tables, to keep people from doing ludicrous stuff like coffee-lock. They still get the combo, but now they can't overcharge themselves into a giant battery, so you have to figure out how to spell your excessive number of spell slots on low-level, non-combat spells. And considering how few spells learned you get between Warlock and Sorcerer, this ends up balancing itself; do you pack a spell like Illusory Script, just so you can spend your excess amount of spell slots during rest hours, or do you just suck it up and deal with the fact that you're an infinitely-recharging battery with nothing to charge?


This is exactly what I present at my tables, but I'm interested to see what people would try to use all of that energy on when they could only use it on non-combat spells.

[Bjarkmundur]

A lot of the extra rules on tools in Xanathars guide to everything can take an hour or a long rest, so you can get either 4x 1h and 1x long rest option or 2x longrest: (Full rules are in the Tool Proficiencies section under Dungeon Master's Tools chapter)



ALCHEMIST'S SUPPLIES: As part of a long rest, you can use alchemist's supplies to make one dose of acid, alchemist's fire, antitoxin, oil, perfume, or soap for half the shop price. 50gp for 1 pound of raw materials to use for this.


BREWER'S SUPPLIES: As part of a long rest, you can purify up to 6 gallons of water, or 1 gallon as part of a short rest.


DISGUISE KIT: As part of a long rest, you can create a disguise. You can have only 1 without drawing attention unless you have a bag of holding or similar.


FORGERY KIT: As part of a short rest, you can produce a forged document no more than one page in length, in a long rest you can make a 4 pages document


MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS: As part of a long rest, you can compose a new tune and lyrics for your instrument.


PAINTERS SUPPLIES: As part of a short or long rest, you can produce a simple work of art.


SMITHS TOOLS: With access to your tools and an open flame hot enough to make meta l pliable, you can restore 10 hit points to a damaged metal object for each hour of work.


TINKERS TOOLS: You can restore 10 hit points to a damaged object for each hour of work. For any object, you need access to the raw materials required to repair it. For metal objects, you need access to an open flame hot enough to make the metal pliable.


WEAVERS TOOLS: Assuming you have access to sufficient cloth and thread, you can create an outfit for a creature as part of a long rest.


WOODCARVERS TOOLS: As part of a short rest, you can craft up to five arrows. As part of a long rest, you can craft up to twenty. You must have enough wood on hand to produce them.


THIS LIST IS SO USEFUL! I can't believe I had forgotten about this.

....wait, armor has hit points?

[Man_Over_Game]

THIS LIST IS SO USEFUL! I can't believe I had forgotten about this.

....wait, armor has hit points?

All objects have hitpoints.

If you want to get really weird about it, magical items have the same HP as mundane ones, they just have resistance to damage. Unless the object in question is an Artifact (which are nearly indestructible).

Player: "I attack to sunder the wizard's wand"
DM: "Crap. Wood has AC 15. Tiny objects have...1d4 HP. Magical, so resistance to damage.... Can you deal...5 damage?"

DMG p.246 has the deets you're looking for.

[Keravath]

To clarify the question in case there are those that don't know: an elf long rest is 8 hours long which is the same as any other PC. They only spend 4 hours of it in trance as opposed to 8 hours of sleep for other PCs. Non-elf PCs are allowed to be awake doing light tasks such as keeping watch for 2 of those 8 hours.

I imagine while traveling through the wilderness, elves get saddled with more clean the camp, cooking and sharpening weapons duties than non-elves.

One way or the other, don't let it bog down the game either as a player or a DM. If the pally is spending a long rest sleeping in full plate, then I wouldn't sweat too much about who is doing the dishes. :)

Just a further clarification :) ... but normal characters only need to spend 6 out of the 8 hours of a long rest actually sleeping. They can spend the other 2 hours on light activity including standing watch, studying or whatever they like.

So in a secure setting, every character gets at least 2 hours to devote to their hobbies :) .. elves get 4 hours that they can spend doing anything since their long rest is completed in 4 hours.

"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours."

[Segev]

As in, the DM only says you can have Sorcery Points up to amount indicated on the Sorcerer table. Which just translates to Sorcerer Point Maximum = Sorcerer Level. And spell slots are capped in the same way (using Multiclass rules when applicable).

So if you have 2 Sorcerer Points, are a level 3 Sorcerer, and you convert a spell slot to gain 4 Sorcery Points, your Sorcery Points cap out at 3. I do this at my own tables, to keep people from doing ludicrous stuff like coffee-lock. They still get the combo, but now they can't overcharge themselves into a giant battery, so you have to figure out how to spell your excessive number of spell slots on low-level, non-combat spells. And considering how few spells learned you get between Warlock and Sorcerer, this ends up balancing itself; do you pack a spell like Illusory Script, just so you can spend your excess amount of spell slots during rest hours, or do you just suck it up and deal with the fact that you're an infinitely-recharging battery with nothing to charge?


This is exactly what I present at my tables, but I'm interested to see what people would try to use all of that energy on when they could only use it on non-combat spells.

Oh. I was assuming that, anyway, so no wonder I was confused when you presented it as if it were a change!

No, the trick is that you convert your sorcery points to spells, THEN your pact magic to SP. Then your SP to spells, if you have enough and still have pact magic slots. You're actually stockpiling sorcerer spell slots, not SP. That's the general principle behind the coffeelock. But I'll stop here, as this is about what the elf does with his time, not how to be a coffeelock (which is just one thing you can do with that time).

[Demonslayer666]

This was changed in a recent errata, an Elf's long rest is now only 4h of meditation and nothing else.


Edit:

That is a Sage Advice Compendium.

The Errata for the PHB does not say anything about a long rest being 4 hours for an elf. (I couldn't find anything referencing it anyway)
https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf


I too would dislike it if the elves in the party got 4 extra hours of adventuring with out the rest of the party. In my game, elves trance for 4 hours and have 4 hours of light activity.

[Aprender]

Elves should be required to spend 2 hours every day combing their luxurious hair and doing their make up.

Maybe he's born with it. Maybe it's Fey-belline?

[Dalebert]

That is a Sage Advice Compendium.


It was a Crawford tweet that "changed" it in the first place back when his tweets were considered by most to be official RAW. Then sage advice just logged his tweet. All they're doing is retracting Crawford's tweet to reflect what the PHB already says. They get the same benefit from a four hour trance that a human gets for sleeping a solid 8 hours.

[RedMage125]

elves should be required to spend 2 hours every day combing their luxurious hair and doing their make up.

Maybe he's born with it. Maybe it's fey-belline?

bwahahahahahahaha!

[Demonslayer666]

It was a Crawford tweet that "changed" it in the first place back when his tweets were considered by most to be official RAW. Then sage advice just logged his tweet. All they're doing is retracting Crawford's tweet to reflect what the PHB already says. They get the same benefit from a four hour trance that a human gets for sleeping a solid 8 hours.

'Most' is highly debatable. I don't, and the 5 other DMs I know don't. /shrug

The PHB does not say that 4 hours of trance is a long rest. It only says that 4 hours of trance is 8 hours of sleep. It says nothing about shortening the time for a long rest to be completed.

Until it's in the errata or makes it into a reprint, it's not an official rule IMO.

[Millstone85]

The PHB does not say that 4 hours of trance is a long rest. It only says that 4 hours of trance is 8 hours of sleep. It says nothing about shortening the time for a long rest to be completed.But wouldn't 8 hours of sleep count as a long rest for other races?

[Dungeon-noob]

But wouldn't 8 hours of sleep count as a long rest for other races?
I don't think i need to pull the actual quote here to clear it up for you. It's clearly defined what a long rest is, and while 8 hours of sleep would qualify as one, sleeping less doesn't mean you get shorter rests. Elves still need to follow the same rules as everyone else as far as resting is concerned.

[Cikomyr]

I don't think i need to pull the actual quote here to clear it up for you. It's clearly defined what a long rest is, and while 8 hours of sleep would qualify as one, sleeping less doesn't mean you get shorter rests. Elves still need to follow the same rules as everyone else as far as resting is concerned.

Here's a question for you:

Why?

What does it matter? Do you really have a player at the table who is such an ******* that he want to have a 4-hour play session to himself while the rest of the party sleeps?

A 4-hour rest means the elf has his abilities rejuvenated midway through the night in case of ambush. That's about it. The rest is fun fluff.

[greenstone]

So, every time you take a long rest you get an extra 4 hours that other PCs don't get. What do you do with that time?

Craft items. Use that kit proficiency you always forget about.

Write poems and/or music. You're an elf - you are supposed to be an arty-farty type. :-)

Clean your gear again. If you can't eat off your breastplate then it's not clean, soldier!

[Naanomi]

Travel only with other Elves so you can get in extra adventuring time?

[Dalebert]

The PHB does not say that 4 hours of trance is a long rest. It only says that 4 hours of trance is 8 hours of sleep. It says nothing about shortening the time for a long rest to be completed.



I don't think i need to pull the actual quote here to clear it up for you. It's clearly defined what a long rest is, and while 8 hours of sleep would qualify as one, sleeping less doesn't mean you get shorter rests. Elves still need to follow the same rules as everyone else as far as resting is concerned.

For the life of me I don't see how anyone finds this ambiguous. It says elves get the same benefit from 4 hours of trancing that a human gets from 8 hours of sleep. What benefit does a human get for sleeping 8 hours? They get the benefits of a long rest. So an elf trancing 4 hours gets the benefits of a long rest. They may as well have slept for a solid 8 hours. No one interpreted that any other way until Crawford tweeting his bizarre interpretation and it somehow still sticks to this day.

[DrKerosene]

For the life of me I don't see how anyone finds this ambiguous. It says elves get the same benefit from 4 hours of trancing that a human gets from 8 hours of sleep. What benefit does a human get for sleeping 8 hours? They get the benefits of ...(snip)

...not having to make a Save against a level of Exhaustion due to not getting enough sleep. https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/69312/what-happens-if-you-dont-sleep

I feel like this is being forgotten, almost every time I see elves or coffeelockesque builds.

[Dalebert]

...not having to make a Save against a level of Exhaustion due to not getting enough sleep. https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/69312/what-happens-if-you-dont-sleep

I feel like this is being forgotten, almost every time I see elves or coffeelockesque builds.

It would be an issue with those who took Aspect of the Moon if they swap out 8 short rests instead of a long rest but not for an elf if they actually trance. For all practical purposes, when an elf trances for 4 hours, you should just treat that as if they had slept for 8. It would stave off exhaustion just as well because that's a benefit of sleeping for 8 hours and they get the same benefit.

[Cikomyr]

It would be an issue with those who took Aspect of the Moon if they swap out 8 short rests instead of a long rest but not for an elf if they actually trance. For all practical purposes, when an elf trances for 4 hours, you should just treat that as if they had slept for 8. It would stave off exhaustion just as well because that's a benefit of sleeping for 8 hours and they get the same benefit.

Seriously. Any place that says "you can recover after 8 hours of rest" and have someone go "ah ha! So the elf needs 8 hours!" are being disingenuous.

If you don't like that, just make the trance 8 hours.

[Davo]

Warforged Warlock, I take guard duty every night because I never need a long rest (unless I need to recover HD). I take a short rest while the short-lived are eating.

[Demonslayer666]

But wouldn't 8 hours of sleep count as a long rest for other races?
Yep, because it meets the requirements of a long rest (8+ hours in length, 6+ of sleep, and no more than 2 of light activity).



For the life of me I don't see how anyone finds this ambiguous. It says elves get the same benefit from 4 hours of trancing that a human gets from 8 hours of sleep. What benefit does a human get for sleeping 8 hours? They get the benefits of a long rest. So an elf trancing 4 hours gets the benefits of a long rest. They may as well have slept for a solid 8 hours. No one interpreted that any other way until Crawford tweeting his bizarre interpretation and it somehow still sticks to this day.

I don't find it ambiguous. I can't figure out for the life of me where you are reading that is says the long rest time requirement changes for elves. A long rest is clearly defined as 8 hours of time, with some minimum of sleep and a max of light activity. Under elf is says nothing about a long rest and only mentions sleep. Sleep is a portion of a long rest (that can also be the whole thing since light activity can be 0).

FYI, I am basing my interpretation on the statements in the PHB, not anyone's tweet.

[Man_Over_Game]

For those wanting to keep up on the topic, here's the relevant information in the PHB:


************************************************** ***

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. If the rest is interrupted by a strenuous activity—such as attacking, taking damage, or casting a spell—you must start the rest over to gain any benefit from it, unless the interruption takes less than an hour. You must have at least 1 hit point to take a long rest. At the end of the rest, you regain all your hit points and half of your maximum number of Hit Dice (round up). You cannot benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period.


************************************************** ***

Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.


The questions worth answering for your own tables:

Is a person sleeping for 8 hours always considered to "benefit" from a Long Rest? (Does an 8 hour nap give me back my powers in the middle of the day?)
Is a Long Rest more focused on the time (8 hours) or the rest (4-6 hours)?
How does your decision fit in with the Catnap spell, and the rules on Short Rests, if at all?

[Demonslayer666]

For those wanting to keep up on the topic, here's the relevant information in the PHB:


************************************************** ***

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which you sleep or perform light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours of the rest period. If the rest is interrupted by a strenuous activity—such as attacking, taking damage, or casting a spell—you must start the rest over to gain any benefit from it, unless the interruption takes less than an hour. You must have at least 1 hit point to take a long rest. At the end of the rest, you regain all your hit points and half of your maximum number of Hit Dice (round up). You cannot benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period.


************************************************** ***

Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.


The errata has an updated definition of a long rest:
"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."

[JackPhoenix]

This was changed in a recent errata, an Elf's long rest is now only 4h of meditation and nothing else.

It wasn't. Sage Advice isn't errata. Neither is Sage Advice Compendium.

[RedMage125]

The errata has an updated definition of a long rest:
"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."


It wasn't. Sage Advice isn't errata. Neither is Sage Advice Compendium.

I think the bone of contention is under the description of Elf Trance:

"After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

Specific > General, and it seems to be a common interpretation that this rule which is specific only to elves overrides the otherwise applicable general rule that a Long Rest must be 8 hours.

[Segev]

The alteration to a "long rest" being 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of "light activity" (as opposed to earlier editions' requirements for 8 hours of sleep), combined with the elves' trance feature saying they get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in those 4 hours, makes it especially odd. Do elves only need 3 hours of trance and 5 hours of light activity? 4 hours of trans and 4 hours of light activity? 3 hours of trance and 2 hours of light activity (getting the 6 hours of "sleep" in 3, but still needing the two hours of no more than light activity)?

[Fable Wright]

My elves tend to take Mold Earth.

Every morning, the party finds themself in a new dungeon that the insane elf with carpenter's tools made overnight. It's not a BIG dungeon... but it's usually trapped from Thieves Tools proficiency and 4 short rests.

Gods help the party if he ever gets Sympathy/Antipathy to stock the dungeon.

If I'm not doing that, four hours of crafting are nice.

[Wizard_Lizard]

My elf plays with dice.

[Agent-KI7KO]

My Eladrin Bard (reincarnated from Human) has taken to writing bits of in-the-field research in the Tome she is required to submit to be enrolled in a famous Lore Studies University.

The University only requires a quarter of the tome filled with 2-3 topics.

She’s filled the entire book and tacked on an extra few hundred pages, entirely on the extra 4 hours she gets per day.

[DrKerosene]

Do elves only need 3 hours of trance and 5 hours of light activity? 4 hours of trans and 4 hours of light activity? 3 hours of trance and 2 hours of light activity (getting the 6 hours of "sleep" in 3, but still needing the two hours of no more than light activity)?

I don’t get the point of the unusual numbers there. I expect less than 4 hours of trance is the same as interrupting a long rest.

I would allow an elf to trance multiple times in the same day, or to trance for more than 4 hours if they want (normal people can sleep-in after all), but I wouldn’t allow it to work as a second long rest for getting back spell-slots, HP, etc. within the same day.

An elf gets to not make a save vs exhastion after four hours of trance.

Yes, under normal gameplay rules an elf should also get back HP, Spell-Slots, half their HD, and maybe change spells known (up to four hours faster than non-elves), etc, after a four hour trance.

However, this is obviously different if you are using the faster rest rules, or the longer/gritty rest rules. In which case it reverts to just “no save vs exhaustion” this morning for the elf.

[Rara1212]

It wasn't. Sage Advice isn't errata. Neither is Sage Advice Compendium.

Yeah, there never was any need for errata as the rules always have stated that the 4h of trance gives "the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

Sage Advice, and the collection of them, the Sage Advice Compendium are just clarifications on rules that people have thought hard to read, or haven't understood. "Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium by the game’s lead rules de-signer, Jeremy Crawford"

So all the Sage Advice does is clarify on the rule about if Elf's get a long rest from 4h of trance.


Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed
https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

[Segev]

I don’t get the point of the unusual numbers there.

Four hours of trance for an elf equals eight hours of sleep for a human.

A long rest doesn't actually consist of 8 hours of sleep in 5e; it is 6 hours of sleep, plus 2 hours of "light activity."

Since humans don't need 8 hours of sleep, elves must not need 4 hours of trance.

That is the cause of the unusual numbers in my post. It is an effort to demonstrate by analysis that the elven ribbon of trancing in half the time other races sleep wasn't thought out well wrt how that impacts a long rest. Or even if it does.

[Cikomyr]

Four hours of trance for an elf equals eight hours of sleep for a human.

A long rest doesn't actually consist of 8 hours of sleep in 5e; it is 6 hours of sleep, plus 2 hours of "light activity."

Since humans don't need 8 hours of sleep, elves must not need 4 hours of trance.

That is the cause of the unusual numbers in my post. It is an effort to demonstrate by analysis that the elven ribbon of trancing in half the time other races sleep wasn't thought out well wrt how that impacts a long rest. Or even if it does.

It's a bit silly to start delving too deep there.

The point of "6 hours of sleep + 2hoirs of light activity" is to prevent sticklers who insist on a full 8 hours and prevent any interaction or eating. "guys we have to sleep 8 hours, that's what the book say!"

It's the sort of moment you have to stop digging and just accept the abstraction. Maybe sometimes someone sleeps only 5 hour because they didn't sleep well. Maybe someone sleep an extra hour because they were exhausted.

Keep it light

[Segev]

It's a bit silly to start delving too deep there.

The point of "6 hours of sleep + 2hoirs of light activity" is to prevent sticklers who insist on a full 8 hours and prevent any interaction or eating. "guys we have to sleep 8 hours, that's what the book say!"

It's the sort of moment you have to stop digging and just accept the abstraction. Maybe sometimes someone sleeps only 5 hour because they didn't sleep well. Maybe someone sleep an extra hour because they were exhausted.

Keep it light

That was partially my point. The other part being that they clearly didn't think that deeply about it when they ported the Elf ribbon from earlier editions.

[Rukelnikov]

The alteration to a "long rest" being 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of "light activity" (as opposed to earlier editions' requirements for 8 hours of sleep), combined with the elves' trance feature saying they get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in those 4 hours, makes it especially odd. Do elves only need 3 hours of trance and 5 hours of light activity? 4 hours of trans and 4 hours of light activity? 3 hours of trance and 2 hours of light activity (getting the 6 hours of "sleep" in 3, but still needing the two hours of no more than light activity)?

The 2 hours of light activity are a maximum not a minimum, so you can have 0 minutes of light activity and still get a Long Rest:

"at least 8 hours long,"

TOTAL TIME >= 8 hrs

"during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours"

SLEEP TIME >= 6 hrs

"and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"

LIGHT ACTIVITY TIME <= 2 hrs

So trancing 4 hrs meets all the prequisites

[Willie the Duck]

So, every time you take a long rest you get an extra 4 hours that other PCs don't get. What do you do with that time?

Once, on a long car ride, I had a discussion with my father about his dad's naval service, and we came to the conclusion that people that lived before <each of our plus my grandpa's relative generations> must have had different psychological expectations for downtime. I mean, my grandpa was in the navy on pre-WWII and WWII-era service vessels, so there was undoubtedly plenty of work to be done (plus the armed forces are really good at finding ways to keep soldiers busy), plus most people at that point were literate so worst case scenario you spend a bunch of time reading books you might otherwise consider wastes of time or the like). However, dial back to the 19th century and maybe make the scenario a boat going from Europe to America with a bunch of (potentially illiterate) emigrants (so civilians, passengers, and thus people no one is trying to keep busy). The amount of just having literally nothing to do would be a form of torture to someone like us who are used to, at the very least, books, newspapers, and radio to occupy time.

Extrapolating that back to land and to the late-medieval time D&D pseudo-emulates, think about medieval laborers. Say the harvest season is done and you're hired to spend the winter months in Saint-Denis, building the first gothic cathedral. The first laborers to arrive could have done so 3-4 weeks before there would have been enough to allow full work forces to be made or the like. Maybe they would have figured out what to do with you in the meantime, but maybe not.

What I'm saying is that people both 1) must have been a lot more comfortable doing 'nothing' for longer stretches that we could ever cope with, and 2) probably found a lot of ways to kill time waiting. Perhaps a party with two elves spend each night playing chess, but they deliberately do not keep a chess board so that each night they have to spend time figuring out how to ruck together a chess set out of the surrounding landscape. :smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

Once, on a long car ride, I had a discussion with my father about his dad's naval service, and we came to the conclusion that people that lived before <each of our plus my grandpa's relative generations> must have had different psychological expectations for downtime. I mean, my grandpa was in the navy on pre-WWII and WWII-era service vessels, so there was undoubtedly plenty of work to be done (plus the armed forces are really good at finding ways to keep soldiers busy), plus most people at that point were literate so worst case scenario you spend a bunch of time reading books you might otherwise consider wastes of time or the like). However, dial back to the 19th century and maybe make the scenario a boat going from Europe to America with a bunch of (potentially illiterate) emigrants (so civilians, passengers, and thus people no one is trying to keep busy). The amount of just having literally nothing to do would be a form of torture to someone like us who are used to, at the very least, books, newspapers, and radio to occupy time.

Extrapolating that back to land and to the late-medieval time D&D pseudo-emulates, think about medieval laborers. Say the harvest season is done and you're hired to spend the winter months in Saint-Denis, building the first gothic cathedral. The first laborers to arrive could have done so 3-4 weeks before there would have been enough to allow full work forces to be made or the like. Maybe they would have figured out what to do with you in the meantime, but maybe not.

What I'm saying is that people both 1) must have been a lot more comfortable doing 'nothing' for longer stretches that we could ever cope with, and 2) probably found a lot of ways to kill time waiting. Perhaps a party with two elves spend each night playing chess, but they deliberately do not keep a chess board so that each night they have to spend time figuring out how to ruck together a chess set out of the surrounding landscape. :smalltongue:

Bloody elves can probably play a mental game.

[Man_Over_Game]

Once, on a long car ride, I had a discussion with my father about his dad's naval service, and we came to the conclusion that people that lived before <each of our plus my grandpa's relative generations> must have had different psychological expectations for downtime. I mean, my grandpa was in the navy on pre-WWII and WWII-era service vessels, so there was undoubtedly plenty of work to be done (plus the armed forces are really good at finding ways to keep soldiers busy), plus most people at that point were literate so worst case scenario you spend a bunch of time reading books you might otherwise consider wastes of time or the like). However, dial back to the 19th century and maybe make the scenario a boat going from Europe to America with a bunch of (potentially illiterate) emigrants (so civilians, passengers, and thus people no one is trying to keep busy). The amount of just having literally nothing to do would be a form of torture to someone like us who are used to, at the very least, books, newspapers, and radio to occupy time.

Extrapolating that back to land and to the late-medieval time D&D pseudo-emulates, think about medieval laborers. Say the harvest season is done and you're hired to spend the winter months in Saint-Denis, building the first gothic cathedral. The first laborers to arrive could have done so 3-4 weeks before there would have been enough to allow full work forces to be made or the like. Maybe they would have figured out what to do with you in the meantime, but maybe not.

What I'm saying is that people both 1) must have been a lot more comfortable doing 'nothing' for longer stretches that we could ever cope with, and 2) probably found a lot of ways to kill time waiting. Perhaps a party with two elves spend each night playing chess, but they deliberately do not keep a chess board so that each night they have to spend time figuring out how to ruck together a chess set out of the surrounding landscape. :smalltongue:

Interesting. "Work" is its own form of relieving boredom, so it's best not to shortcut it out.

[Anderlith]

Elves usually play a lyre & compose poems of how much better being an elf is

[RedMage125]

I would allow an elf to trance multiple times in the same day, or to trance for more than 4 hours if they want (normal people can sleep-in after all), but I wouldn’t allow it to work as a second long rest for getting back spell-slots, HP, etc. within the same day.
That doesn't require a ruling, that's in the PHB.
"A character cannot benefit from more than one Long Rest in a 24 hour period"


An elf gets to not make a save vs exhastion after four hours of trance.
I don't think that part's even under contention.


Yes, under normal gameplay rules an elf should also get back HP, Spell-Slots, half their HD, and maybe change spells known (up to four hours faster than non-elves), etc, after a four hour trance.
Some people apparently disagree. But that's how I read it as well.


However, this is obviously different if you are using the faster rest rules, or the longer/gritty rest rules. In which case it reverts to just “no save vs exhaustion” this morning for the elf.

I only know one person who uses those, and he abandoned that after a few sessions.

[Man_Over_Game]

Just keep in mind that, with the whole "Elves finish a Long Rest in 4 hours" shindig, you really need to hammer out a narrative reason why Elves haven't taken over the world.

Because, at this point, they are

Awake 20 hours of the day, vs. everyone else's 16 (able to accomplish 25% more in the day).
Alive 10x longer than humans.
Are not actually asleep when they are resting (able to defend a location indefinitely without needing relief, or able to listen to a conversation).
They are naturally talented at magic or ambushes.



So you really need to explain to your players exactly why Elves don't take over the world. In almost every table I've played in, Elves were slightly rarer than humans, usually choosing to be isolated in forests, but....why?

The Eragon series does a good job of explaining this, basically saying that most Elves take things so slow, first learning how to integrate useless things like poetry and music into EVERYTHING, like fighting, smithing, and working. Slow and meticulous, like a tree. So it makes sense why they don't take things over.

The DnD kinda does this, but then turns around and says that Elves are chaotic in nature, and chaos is rarely patient. So try to come up with a narrative reason for these anomalies at your tables, guys. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I am saying that it can be.

Whether it's by saying that Elves take too much time playing around to actually accomplish anything, or that they are naturally treacherous towards each other, or whatever narrative justification. Just make something up. But it's something that does need a DM's intervention to make sense.

[RedMage125]

Just keep in mind that, with the whole "Elves finish a Long Rest in 4 hours" shindig, you really need to hammer out a narrative reason why Elves haven't taken over the world.

Because, at this point, they are

Awake 20 hours of the day, vs. everyone else's 16 (able to accomplish 25% more in the day).
Alive 10x longer than humans.
Are not actually asleep when they are resting (able to defend a location indefinitely without needing relief, or able to listen to a conversation).
They are naturally talented at magic or ambushes.



So you really need to explain to your players exactly why Elves don't take over the world. In almost every table I've played in, Elves were slightly rarer than humans, usually choosing to be isolated in forests, but....why?

This has been explained in a great deal of elf lore through the various editions.

1-Low Birth Rate. Their longer life expectancies also means they don't re-populate at the same rate humans do.
2-Aversion to War. Have you considered what the loss of life would be for an elf takeover of the world? When you can expect to live 500-700 years, is it worth it to risk centuries of life in a large-scale conflict? Especially against a foe (like humans) that replenishes their numbers much faster than your people do?
3-Generally Good-aligned. Whether or not you use alignment in your game, Elves as a people generally gravitate towards Chaotic Good. Think about that for a moment. The average human is most likely Neutral, with no racial or cultural tendency towards Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos. Elven culture tends to (more often than not) churn out people who are Good. And that means that they (according to 5e metric) "Act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect". Keeping in mind that "conscience" means "the sense or consciouness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's actions", so please, no semantics about how someone's "conscience" might make them a serial killer. That they act as a conscience directs means they actually have a conscience, and that -as a people- they are substantially more selfless than most humans.

How does this all add up? Well, we see that elves DO go to war against those who are brutal, rapacious, and Evil (goblinoids, orcs, etc). But do they do this to take what those races have? No, they do it to stop those races from spreading evil and destruction. And yes, it totally makes sense to have some conflicts with groups of humans who DO behave in a destructive manner. But that's not even representative of all humans. And not other demihumans, either (dwarves tend towards LG, Gnomes and Halflings likewise tend to be Good).

So why would they seek to conquer and dominate other, non-destructive, non-evil peoples, at great risk to their own longevity, potentially losing thousands of their own people, knowing they do not replenish numbers quickly?

[Segev]

The 2 hours of light activity are a maximum not a minimum, so you can have 0 minutes of light activity and still get a Long Rest:

"at least 8 hours long,"

TOTAL TIME >= 8 hrs

"during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours"

SLEEP TIME >= 6 hrs

"and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity"

LIGHT ACTIVITY TIME <= 2 hrs

So trancing 4 hrs meets all the prequisitesMissing my point. Yes, it meets the prerequisites. However, it's established that humans don't need 8 hours of sleep. Elves get the benefit humans do from 8 hours of sleep from 4 hours of trance. Ergo, elves get more "sleep" than they need when trancing. Thus, do they need only 3 hours of trance to get a long rest's benefits? And, if so, how many hours of light activity are they allowed?

Technically, since the rules actually say "no more than 2 hours of light activity," the poor elves have 8 hours' worth of "sleep" after four hours, take 2 hours of light activity, and then...can't even do light activity and certainly don't need more trance-time, so just sit around being bored for 2 hours to get the last bit they need for a long rest! (Yes, this is a stupid way to interpret the rules.)

My real point being that the elven trance-ribbon wasn't thought about at all when they wrote long rest rules, and they didn't stop to consider how a long rest actually works when writing the elven trance-ribbon rule. So DMs have a lot of leeway, and should rule however they think makes things most interesting in service of their game.


The DnD kinda does this, but then turns around and says that Elves are chaotic in nature, and chaos is rarely patient. So try to come up with a narrative reason for these anomalies at your tables, guys. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I am saying that it can be.

Whether it's by saying that Elves take too much time playing around to actually accomplish anything, or that they are naturally treacherous towards each other, or whatever narrative justification. Just make something up. But it's something that does need a DM's intervention to make sense.
My version of this is that elves literally can't sleep. And sleep is still essential to learning. Elven children are energetic 24/7, and have very short attention spans. They are exceedingly chaotic. It takes years to decades for parents to get them to stop, slow down, and even practice trancing for more than a minute or two at a time. As they learn to trance, they learn to LEARN, however. This process accelerates as they get older and more experienced, until finally they're trancing for the four hours they need every day to really package away the day's knowledge, and process it into long-term memory the way humans and other races use sleep.

At this point, they can learn at a more normal rate for an intelligent species.

An elf who has just completed trance has a very structured mind. He has what his previous day's experience told him is relevant information from his many decades to centuries of life at his mental fingertips, and can call up references from ages past as easily as things from yesterday. He is sharp and on point, and his attention span is meticulous and sturdy. As the day progresses, he accumulates more immediate experiences, and things that are more immediate take on greater precedence. Associations they drag forth from the depths of his ancient memory start to be more in the forefront, and the ordered shelves of his mind become cluttered with the piles of papers he's left on his mental desk "for easy access" because "it's relevant." But it's more and more disorganized.

Elves don't get sleepy. They don't feel tired. An elf at the start of a day is likely to be the stentorian bastion of ancient knowledge and perfect meticulous attention to detail that Eragon's elves are. But as the day progresses, he gets progressively more...flighty. More prone to focusing on immediate interests than important but longer-term goals or memories. An elf who is at the point where a human would be drop-dead exhausted is as easily distracted as a child. Still very smart, but with the attention span of a mayfly. The things he recalls are more random and he is more prone to forgetting - or at least failing to remember - pertinent details in favor of what's going on right now.

When he trances down, though, he picks up the mental detritus, reorganizes his mind, and gets everything in order with the new memories he's picked up from the day and sorted to associate properly with the old.

So the CG elf stereotype is a product of late-in-the-day behavior. The arrogant know-it-all stereotype and the meticulous, slow-moving ponderer stereotype are products of just finishing trance.

[Rukelnikov]

Just keep in mind that, with the whole "Elves finish a Long Rest in 4 hours" shindig, you really need to hammer out a narrative reason why Elves haven't taken over the world.

Because, at this point, they are

Awake 20 hours of the day, vs. everyone else's 16 (able to accomplish 25% more in the day).
Alive 10x longer than humans.
Are not actually asleep when they are resting (able to defend a location indefinitely without needing relief, or able to listen to a conversation).
They are naturally talented at magic or ambushes.



So you really need to explain to your players exactly why Elves don't take over the world. In almost every table I've played in, Elves were slightly rarer than humans, usually choosing to be isolated in forests, but....why?

The Eragon series does a good job of explaining this, basically saying that most Elves take things so slow, first learning how to integrate useless things like poetry and music into EVERYTHING, like fighting, smithing, and working. Slow and meticulous, like a tree. So it makes sense why they don't take things over.

The DnD kinda does this, but then turns around and says that Elves are chaotic in nature, and chaos is rarely patient. So try to come up with a narrative reason for these anomalies at your tables, guys. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I am saying that it can be.

Whether it's by saying that Elves take too much time playing around to actually accomplish anything, or that they are naturally treacherous towards each other, or whatever narrative justification. Just make something up. But it's something that does need a DM's intervention to make sense.

In Faerun at least, they kinda did, but around 10 millenia of infighting led to their decline

[Demonslayer666]

The alteration to a "long rest" being 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of "light activity" (as opposed to earlier editions' requirements for 8 hours of sleep), combined with the elves' trance feature saying they get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in those 4 hours, makes it especially odd. Do elves only need 3 hours of trance and 5 hours of light activity? 4 hours of trans and 4 hours of light activity? 3 hours of trance and 2 hours of light activity (getting the 6 hours of "sleep" in 3, but still needing the two hours of no more than light activity)?

Exactly.


I think the bone of contention is under the description of Elf Trance:

"After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

Specific > General, and it seems to be a common interpretation that this rule which is specific only to elves overrides the otherwise applicable general rule that a Long Rest must be 8 hours.

A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, so I don't equate the two.

"After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."
Should have read: "Resting in this way is a long rest."

When they changed long rest to specify an amount of sleep that is required to 6, they didn't update elves and they should have. Elves should be able to combine trance and light activity as well to complete one.

Overall, I agree that it doesn't matter. Even if you allow them to long rest in 4 hours, they still should be doing light activity for the other four and not adventuring - unless your that type of person that makes the rest of the party sit there while you adventure on your own.

[Fable Wright]

Just keep in mind that, with the whole "Elves finish a Long Rest in 4 hours" shindig, you really need to hammer out a narrative reason why Elves haven't taken over the world.

Better question: why haven't hobgoblins taken over? Their culture is Roman, through and through, they have a high birth rate and rapidly mature, and specifically integrate evokers into their ranks that entirely avoid friendly fire.

Each 500 year old elf combatant might (being very generous) take out 500 hobgoblins on his way. It will take the elves 500 years to raise someone else to his caliber. Hobgoblins will replace their losses in under 20 years.

Elves lose that war. Very, very badly. And other races fare no better, lacking military discipline or birthrates to be an effective threat. Dwarves would probably be the last holdout, but could never push an offensive.

[Millstone85]

A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, so I don't equate the two.A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, but 8 hours of sleep have to be a long rest.

[Willie the Duck]

Better question: why haven't hobgoblins taken over? Their culture is Roman, through and through, they have a high birth rate and rapidly mature, and specifically integrate evokers into their ranks that entirely avoid friendly fire.

Each 500 year old elf combatant might (being very generous) take out 500 hobgoblins on his way. It will take the elves 500 years to raise someone else to his caliber. Hobgoblins will replace their losses in under 20 years.

Elves lose that war. Very, very badly. And other races fare no better, lacking military discipline or birthrates to be an effective threat. Dwarves would probably be the last holdout, but could never push an offensive.

They already did (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar).

[OvisCaedo]

I think resting rules in general were written pretty loosely and without thinking about them a great deal. The elven trance is just another one of them.

Probably the most fun bit of nonsense, though, were the variant rules in Xanathar's to account for sleep deprivation, which starts off saying that long rests are not mandatory but that going without sleep is unhealthy. Then the actual hard rule IS, in fact, specifically about requiring long rests, and then JC argued that even if you don't need to sleep this still applies.

though I have a nagging suspicion that particular gotcha is specifically out of spite for the coffeelock concept. Though now I guess, if using that rule, zombies now need to long rest as well or start suffering exhaustion! edit: Flameskulls too, it seems, though most undead are immune to the exhaustion condition in general, skeletons included.

[Willie the Duck]

Though now I guess, if using that rule, zombies now need to long rest as well or start suffering exhaustion! edit: Flameskulls too, it seems, though most undead are immune to the exhaustion condition in general, skeletons included.

Sure, but they are still required to take rests now and again, it's not a physical requirement, they just have a great union (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunchClockVillain).

[Segev]

Sure, but they are still required to take rests now and again, it's not a physical requirement, they just have a great union (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunchClockVillain).

Viva! Monster Union!


(That anime actually had some of the best edritch horror presentations of classic monsters ever.)



But no, seriously, the rules for exhaustion applying to creatures that do need sleep is cool. The idea that you apply them even when creatures don't is silly. And yes, it takes DM adjudication, since few monsters are called out as not needing sleep, and zombies are amongst them, IIRC.

[Demonslayer666]

A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, but 8 hours of sleep have to be a long rest.

and a long rest has to be 8 hours, and four is not 8.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think that we've beaten the horse enough. Everyone understands each side, it really just boils down to different opinions at this point.

But the whole "Do elves get shorter Long Rests" thing isn't even the point that the OP made it for. Anyone got any more suggestions on what the thread is ACTUALLY about?

[Cikomyr]

I think that we've beaten the horse enough. Everyone understands each side, it really just boils down to different opinions at this point.

But the whole "Do elves get shorter Long Rests" thing isn't even the point that the OP made it for. Anyone got any more suggestions on what the thread is ACTUALLY about?

What if elves argued about whether or not they require only 3 hours of trance instead of 4?

Alternatively, knitting.

[Millstone85]

and a long rest has to be 8 hours, and four is not 8.Unless those are 4 hours of trance, which provide the same benefit as 8 hours of sleep, which are a long rest.

[Rukelnikov]

and a long rest has to be 8 hours, and four is not 8.

Specific beats general, elves get 8hrs worth of sleep in 4 hrs of trance.

4 hrs of trance = 8 hrs of sleep = 1 long rest

[Rukelnikov]

I think that we've beaten the horse enough. Everyone understands each side, it really just boils down to different opinions at this point.

But the whole "Do elves get shorter Long Rests" thing isn't even the point that the OP made it for. Anyone got any more suggestions on what the thread is ACTUALLY about?

IDK, pretty much the same we did back in 3.x were rest had to be uninterrupted, so we ended up with about 12 hrs of total party rest so there was someone in guard duty while the rest sleeps.

Writting stuff down, cyphering codes for important stuff, researching spells, hunting gathering for breakfast, preparing stuff for the day, maintaining equipment, practicing something, reading a book, actually standing guard... the list goes on and on

[DrKerosene]

A long rest doesn't actually consist of 8 hours of sleep in 5e; it is 6 hours of sleep, plus 2 hours of "light activity." A long rest can be that, yes. Can be.


Since humans don't need 8 hours of sleep, elves must not need 4 hours of trance. That seems likes a baseless assumption. Other than creating your own backgrounds, or making skill/tool checks with different abilities, could you point me to a page that actually says to mix together general rules and specific rules like you’re doing? I don’t recall anything specifically saying that elves don’t need to start over again if their “long rest” of a four hour trance is interrupted.

After four hours trancing elves can do whatever, which means not being limited by the “up to 2 hours” of light activity text. Depending on what the elf is doing with their extra time, I might have the elf make a save vs exhaustion (due to Forced March rules) up to four hours earlier than the rest of the Party towards the end of the in-game day.

Because it seems to me that elves can choose to go by the normal long rest options like everyone else, or they can choose to use this specifically defined alternative long rest option. And your arguement seems like it’s really just trying to figure out how to wheedle out of the consequences for “interrupting a long rest”.


That doesn't require a ruling, that's in the PHB.
"A character cannot benefit from more than one Long Rest in a 24 hour period" Yes (assuming the shorter or longer rest rules aren’t being used, or some other houserule), however, Millstone went and said:


A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, but 8 hours of sleep have to be a long rest.
So, let’s say I took a long rest of sleeping 8 hours until morning, spent four hours adventuring, and am taking another 8 hour “long rest”. Is that second section of sleeping 8 hours really a “long rest” if it has no mechanical effect other than time passing in game? I’d assume it’s just roleplaying a lazy character.


Maybe sometimes someone sleeps only 5 hour because they didn't sleep well. Maybe someone sleep an extra hour because they were exhausted.

Sleeping-in is fine, and I think there are character backgrounds that include trouble sleeping without mechanical penalty. Excluding those, I’d expect most things that cause sleep loss are supposed to be used to force the character to make a save vs exhaustion. Like Night Hags, or anything that may inflict one of those non-permenant madness/insanity effects from some charts, etc.

Edit: My first elf wizard was a prankster. Using prestidigitation to make cake icing taste like stale peanut butter that had been left in the sun all day. Doing mild things to screw with people using his squirrel familiar would probably be a main thing. Otherwise spamming ritual castings of Unseen Servant to get basic stuff done, up five servants for almost four hours is a good bit of work.

Another elf was a druid. If he didn’t have to protect the camp or babysit, they’d have probably ritual cast spells to find rare mushrooms, truffles, beetles, or maybe just pal around with local animals in town and see if they have any news or needs.

[Millstone85]

So, let’s say I took a long rest of sleeping 8 hours until morning, spent four hours adventuring, and am taking another 8 hour “long rest”. Is that second section of sleeping 8 hours really a “long rest” if it has no mechanical effect other than time passing in game?I do not have an answer to this question. But if I did, I would give the same answer when "sleeping 8 hours" is replaced with "trancing 4 hours", and again the same answer for "sleeping 6 hours and doing light activity for 2 hours".

Or, let's say you have a human and an elf deciding to take a long rest. Their previous long rest meets the 24-hour clause. Neither shorter nor longer rest rules are being used. The human sleeps 8 hours, which is valid as a long rest. The elf trances 4 hours, by which they should "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep". And that somehow wouldn't be a long rest?

[Wizard_Lizard]

The elves should be on gaurd duty?

[DrKerosene]

Or, let's say you have a human and an elf deciding to take a long rest. Their previous long rest meets the 24-hour clause. Neither shorter nor longer rest rules are being used. The human sleeps 8 hours, which is valid as a long rest. The elf trances 4 hours, by which they should "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep". And that somehow wouldn't be a long rest?

No. I bolded the relevant part. The human would just be “Unconcious” for the time they are asleep.

It’s not a “Long Rest” if it’s within the same 24 hour period. They don’t gain HP, HD, Spell Slots, or lose a level of exhaustion. The only “benefit” they may gain from a hypothetical second “Long Rest” is not having to make a save vs exhaustion.

How does it qualify as a “Long Rest” if none of the mechanical effects are applied?

You can’t cast magic missile when you are out of spell slots. You can say the arcane words and twiddle your magic fingers, do all the same stuff, but did you actually cast a spell? No. Doing all the same stuff as a Long Rest doesn’t mean it qualifies as a Long Rest.

[Millstone85]

No. I bolded the relevant part.And what about the previous sentence, where I say that "Their previous long rest meets the 24-hour clause"?


It’s not a “Long Rest” if it’s within the same 24 hour period.But it is not within the same 24-hour period.

Let's try this again.

You commented on how I "went and said":
A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, but 8 hours of sleep have to be a long rest. Your critique being that it is possible for 8 hours of sleep to not be a long rest, if they happen too close to a long rest. As opposed to the idea of them counting as a long rest, but without the benefit of one.

Well, alright then, maybe I should have said:
A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep got once in a 24-hour period, as it can instead be 6 hours of sleep and 2 hours of light activity got once in a 24-hour period, but if you do get 8 hours of sleep once in a 24-hour period, as an elf is considered to have done after trancing for 4 hours once in a 24-hour period, then that ought to count as a long rest. All of this under the assumption that we are following the standard resting rules of the 5th edition of Dungeons & Dragons.

But no, I don't think I should have, because:

It would have been really long-winded.
I thought it was obvious that I assumed the 24-hour clause to be met, under standard resting rules etc.
What happens when the 24-hour clause is not met is entirely irrelevant to the argument I was making.

If you still insist on going off onto this tangent, then sure, okay, it is not a long rest if it is too close to a long rest.

[DrKerosene]

And what about the previous sentence, where I say that "Their previous long rest meets the 24-hour clause"?
I took that to mean that you were confirming the two characters had mechanically benefited from the one “Long Rest” per day and were still within that same 24 hour period while attempting a second “Long Rest”. Nothing else you said made it obvious you were changing anything in the hypothetical scenario that I had already presented. Otherwise I now read it as you asking me “What happens when these two character take a Long Rest after enough time has passed that it’s a new 24 hour period?” Which seems like the normal time to take a “Long Rest”, and the two Players just have to declare they are taking a “Long Rest”, or that they are wasting away the day. I apologize for misunderstanding your statement about meeting a clause.


But it is not within the same 24-hour period.
Let's try this again.
(snip)
But no, I don't think I should have, because: Yeah, I occasionaly think this too. Often about simple things like saying what happens when declaring you are taking a Long Rest after enough time has past since the last Long Rest. But then people say something that seems too inaccurate to not try to clarify what they mean or think.



It would have been really long-winded. True, but do you think saying something short and inaccurate like “A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, but 8 hours of sleep have to be a long rest” is better?


I thought it was obvious that I assumed the 24-hour clause to be met, under standard resting rules etc. Obviously not, as I’ve already pointed out where I misunderstood you.


What happens when the 24-hour clause is not met is entirely irrelevant to the argument I was making. But I still thought that was specifically the scenario you where giving.

With this new found level of communication, tell me if you disagree with this statement:
“A Short Rest has to be an hour of downtime, but an hour of downtime does not have to be a Short Rest.”

Extended scenario for context: Our hypothetical human is ambushed 7 hours into the “Long Rest”. The elf can be three and a half hours through a Trance too. Neither benefits from a “Long Rest” due to the interruption, but can they benefit from a “Short Rest”? The answer is no, because a “Short Rest” is distinct from a “Long Rest”, even though the description for a “Short Rest” was technically met.

Alternative scenario. If our hypothetical Elf is a (non-magic) Rogue with full HP and HD, they just need to rest/trance enough to avoid saves vs exhaustion. They can literally stand guard for several extra hours and ignore taking a mechanical “Long Rest” indefinitely. You don’t make a save vs exhaustion from not taking a “Long Rest”, you make a save vs exhaustion from not getting enough sleep (or Trance). Can you fathom a game where the DM ambushed the Party every 5 hours, so the non-elves are not mechanically benefiting from a “Long Rest” but they are getting enough sleep? Just extend that same logic to include that 8 hours of rest does not automatically qualifying as a “Long Rest”, even if it has been well over 24 hours since the last “Long Rest”.

My critique is that 8 hours of rest doesn’t have to mechanically be a “Long Rest”. Period.

[Millstone85]

What happens when the 24-hour clause is not met is entirely irrelevant to the argument I was making.
But I still thought that was specifically the scenario you where giving.You... You thought that when I said...
A long rest does not have to be 8 hours of sleep, but 8 hours of sleep have to be a long rest. I was specifically giving a scenario where the 24-hour clause is not met?

At this point, at least one of the following is true:

I write confusing posts.
You are not paying attention.

Either way, we should probably stop this exchange.

[Demonslayer666]

I think several are guilty of not paying attention, but stopping exchanges would be boring. Like Man-Over-Game said, both sides have been clearly stated, and one side thinks elves warp time, so we all know who's right. :smallamused:

I made something specifically in my game for everyone to do during light activity of a short and long rest. I changed identifying magic items to one feature per hour of research. That way you can research a magic item while short resting or on guard duty (if you want to risk being distracted).

[Man_Over_Game]

What if elves argued about whether or not they require only 3 hours of trance instead of 4?

Alternatively, knitting.

Plot twist: Elves actually finish the Long Rest in 4 hours, but they spend their extra time pondering why, and whether or not resolving an existential crisis is considered a "light" enough activity to make them question whether they're fulfilling the Long Rest appropriately or not.

They spend so much time pondering that the Long Rest is finished for everyone, and they get back to playing the game.