Optimization Trick: How to Get a Class Ability Without I.S. or Levels in the Class?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Looking for a new optimization trick that I haven't seen done before: some way to gain a capstone from a very meh PrC or base class without actually taking levels in it, specifically without taking levels in illithid savant (which would make it either too easy or too hard, depending on whether the DM allows it [too easy] or bans it [too hard]).

I'd prefer a general solution, of course, since that would work for more than one ability in multiple builds.

Obviously, three levels in illithid savant would do it, and a dip into the class + legacy champion would do it (eventually), but illithid savant is old hat, and for most classes, you might as well take the original class in question instead of legacy champion (which slows down progression).

Damned near anything is doable in 3.5 and PF if you can figure out how, but this is something I haven't been able to figure out. Yet.

Certain classes are not worth taking, with metamind being the ur-example. The class is absolutely awful when compared to a single-class psion in every conceivable way, with the capstone being the only good ability in the entire class, which is not worth gimping yourself horribly outside of very, very few situations (specifically, in epic).

This is assuredly theoretical optimization, but that's fine. I just want to know how it could be done. Preferably more than one way.

Any takers?

[Venger]

Outside of the boring answer (manipulate form) there is no way to do this in the parameters you've given.

You can get infinite power points in a number of other ways, but I think you specifically want font of power.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Outside of the boring answer (manipulate form) there is no way to do this in the parameters you've given.

You can get infinite power points in a number of other ways, but I think you specifically want font of power.It was the example used, but not the only one useful to have.

Taking two initiator stances at once as a swordsage is another one. Or the ardent's dominant ideal as a psychic warrior.

There are innumerable examples to use, but metamind/font of power is, as I mentioned, the ur-example of this in practice. Who wants to nerf themselves that hard only to be (almost) on par for 1 minute per day?

[Psyren]

Just use the Pathfinder version of Metamind. Loses only 3 ML and has better stuff on the way to the capstone.

For the general topic, other than cheesy stuff like IS or Fusion/Astral Seed I don't really have much to add. And once you're using that level of cheese, do you even need Font of Power?

[Crake]

The solution to this problem is: Collaborate with your DM to help you make the character you want to make.

[Bavarian itP]

The solution to this problem is: Collaborate with your DM to help you make the character you want to make.

See also: Pg. 174/175 in the DMG, especially the sidebar on 175.

[Khatoblepas]

1) Be a Scaled One of Toril.
2) Gate in a Sarrukh
3) Request it grant you Font of Power with it's Manipulate Form ability.
4) Enjoy all your offspring being born with one minute of free manifesting a day.

It's the same thing Punpun does, but on a lower scale, just to gain one or two abilities of your choice.

[Telonius]

Dominate Monster? Leadership?

Other than that, depending on the particular capstone, a Spellthief could potentially steal it if it's (Sp).

[Malphegor]

Mind control works. Arguably if you command it to happen, you are legally responsible, even if it’s in one of your fleshbag minions

[Efrate]

Epic spellcasting.

Craft wondrous item and its epic version.

Alter reality SDA;
Abusing everything you can think of to mind rape a planet with a ton of free chained metamagic, give yourself the abilities as a deity, then so you do not get the ire of the gods mind rape back everyone.

Maybe wish or miracle?

Find a new vestige/work with your dm to make one.

Epic expansion of chamleon.

[zfs]

I was thinking the Hagunemnon's Alter Shape ability could pick this up, but that only works on Ex abilities. Also it's probably not RAW to be able to pick up anything that is gained from class levels because you're supposed to be gaining the abilities by turning into the creature that has them.

[Troacctid]

If you don't want to take factotum 19, then I say just wish for it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Fusion + astral seed, but that's just as bad as Illithid Savant, really, and for the same reasons.

You might be able to do something incredibly stupid like CL 25 trait removal > gain negative levels, fail saves, lose class features > trait removal runs out and gives you your ability back. I personally think this is pretty damn stupid, and I'm not taking it seriously enough to figure out whether it even works RAW (I'm assuming it doesn't), and even if it works, it's frankly too easy, like Illithid Savant and fusion + astral seed. But maybe it sparks some ideas, dunno. Ability rip doesn't work on class features, which is probably for the best :smalltongue:.

[daremetoidareyo]

Craft wondrous item should do it.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you don't want to take factotum 19, then I say just wish for it.

Only good for features available by level 15 that are (Ex)

[Piggy Knowles]

1. Take the class you want, all the way up to level 10 or 20 or whatever.
2. Take command of an undead that creates non-templated intelligent spawn, and command it to kill you. Have a hireling instructed to slay the undead in question once you rise as spawn.
3. Take two levels of the Emancipated Spawn prestige class from Savage Species. (This may require jumping into another class first, as it requires BAB +3.)

The end result is that you'll lose all your levels to become a spawn, then regain all the class features in two levels via the Emancipated Spawn's recall class features ability. As long as you never take the third level of Emancipated Spawn, your ECL won't increase despite you potentially having an effective 20 levels worth of class abilities.

So, for example, I could start as a Ranger/MoMF, get myself attacked by a ghoul and voluntarily fail my saves versus ghoul fever until I died and came back as a ghast (using the class on page 35 of Libris Mortis). I have my hirelings kill the ghoul that spawned me. Then I take two levels in Emancipated Spawn, choosing MoMF for my recall class features ability. End result? I'm an ECL 10 character with 6 HD and all the class features of a 10th level MoMF. From there I can do... well, pretty much anything.

[EliDupree]

So, this relies on a specific interpretation of ambiguous RAW, but here goes:

1. Take 9 levels of Metamind.
2. Take 2 levels of Legacy Champion. At Legacy Champion 2, choose to "gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in [Metamind]." This causes you to gain the Metamind capstone, but not by actually gaining a Metamind class level.
3. Go on a few PHBII rebuild quests to swap all of your 9 levels of Metamind for something else. Tada!

The only question is whether this would retroactively change which class features you gained at Legacy Champion 2. Since RAW isn't very clear one way or another, I'm gonna say it wouldn't. :amused:

If this works, then ... wait a minute, would you be able to take the SAME class feature at multiple Legacy Champion levels? Actually, I think it gets even more dysfunctional than that, but I think I'll take that to the Dysfunctional Rules thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23986601&postcount=1183).