Making a Level 8 Battlemaster Fighter / Rogue: How to do split and which feats?

[Trustypeaches]

I'm rolling up a character for a new game and I've decided upon a Fighter / Rogue multiclass. Thing is, I haven't decided exactly how I want to go about that;

Whether to be Strength-based or Dexterity based
What split of Fighter / Rogue to take starting at level 8
What feats to take (planning on being a Variant Human

I rolled a (16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 9) for my abilities, and can distribute them however I please. I'll need at least a 13 in Dexterity. I'm planning on focusing on melee combat as the group lacks any front-line, though of course I'd like to keep ranged open as an option.

With all that in mind I had a couple ideas:

Option A: Fighter 5 / Rogue 3
A balanced Fighter with Extra Attack with a sprinkling of sneak attack. I could go strength + shield master to knock fools down for days, but we don't have any other melee characters in the group to take advantage of that unfortunately.

Option B: Fighter 3 / Rogue 5 /w Magic Initiate for SCAG Cantrips
Instead of going for extra attack, I invest more heavily into a single attack with investment into SCAG cantrips and more sneak attack die.

Any thoughts, how would you go about making a character like this?

Edit: A bit more information about the group right now. This is for Dungeon of the Mad Mage. The other PCs in the campaign are:

a Circle of Spores Druid
a Lore Bard / Storm Sorcerer
a Shadow Sorcerer / Archfey Lock

It makes me a bit dubious about grabbing Shield Master and knocking fools over constantly when most of my groupmates are all ranged spellcasters.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm rolling up a character for a new game and I've decided upon a Fighter / Rogue multiclass. Thing is, I haven't decided exactly how I want to go about that;

Whether to be Strength-based or Dexterity based
What split of Fighter / Rogue to take starting at level 8
What feats to take (planning on being a Variant Human

I rolled a (16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 9) for my abilities, and can distribute them however I please. I'll need at least a 13 in Dexterity. I'm planning on focusing on melee combat as the group lacks any front-line, though of course I'd like to keep ranged open as an option.

With all that in mind I had a couple ideas:

Option A: Fighter 5 / Rogue 3
A balanced Fighter with Extra Attack with a sprinkling of sneak attack. I could go strength + shield master to knock fools down for days, but we don't have any other melee characters in the group to take advantage of that unfortunately.

Option B: Fighter 3 / Rogue 5 /w Magic Initiate for SCAG Cantrips
Instead of going for extra attack, I invest more heavily into a single attack with investment into SCAG cantrips and more sneak attack die.

Any thoughts, how would you go about making a character like this?

To be honest, the Battlemaster is almost always better as a Dexterity-based character.

This is because a ranged character can do just fine in melee combat, but a melee character is very limited in ranged combat. And the fact that the Battlemaster can use almost all of his maneuvers at any range.

Additionally, Rogue already requires a 13 into Dexterity, and requires the use of Finesse or Ranged weapons (which also use Dexterity).

As for what spread you're going for, more Fighter means you'd be able to participate more in melee combat (Second Wind buffs, more HP), and more Rogue means you're focusing more on ranged combat and dealing damage.

My recommendation would be to NOT pick up more Rogue levels after level 2, unless a specific Rogue subclass fits your concept. Maybe you want the Swashbuckler to Trip Attack opponents as you run away. Or maybe you want the Inquisitive to Goad them at a distance and keep them away from your allies. But don't do it blindly. More fighter levels will improve your overall combat experience, so only pick up a 3rd+ Rogue level when it's adding to your concept.


********************

My balanced recommendation is Rogue 2, Battlemaster 6. This gets you a maxed out Dexterity (great for maneuvers), Crossbow Expert (stupidly good with the Battlemaster) Cunning Action, and more HP than you can shake a stick at. This is a balanced mix, a fighter capable of handling himself at any range.

My Ranged recommendation is Fighter 5, Rogue 3, grabbing Sharpshooter as an Inquisitive. You'd be a powerful sniper, capable of dealing Sneak Attack damage at 600 feet away with no backup. Since you've hit Fighter 5, it's best to focus on Rogue levels to increase your Sneak Attack damage.

My Melee recommendation is a Fighter 5, Rogue 3, as a Swashbuckler. You'd use one sword and a shield, tripping or goading enemies into attacking you as you dance through the battlefield without a care. Maybe grab Sentinel so that you can stand in ideal locations and lock down enemies from approaching your allies. So you Goad Badguy A (forcing him to chase you), Trip badguy B (so that his movement speed is reduced by half on his turn), and then stand next to Badguy C so he has no choice but to fight you with your Sentinel feat. You've just locked down 3 badguys in one turn. You'll want to not get more than Rogue 5 in this build, as you'll probably want to focus heavily on maneuvers and the extra survivability from your Fighter levels.

[Trustypeaches]

My recommendation would be to NOT pick up more Rogue levels after level 2, unless a specific Rogue subclass fits your concept. Maybe you want the Swashbuckler to Trip Attack opponents as you run away. Or maybe you want the Inquisitive to Goad them at a distance and keep them away from your allies. But don't do it blindly. More fighter levels will improve your overall combat experience, so only pick up a 3rd+ Rogue level when it's adding to your concept.
Could you expand on why more rogue levels isn't worth pursuing, or how more Fighter levels will improve my "overall combat experience"?

I don't see the later fighter levels being particularly attractive with the exception of extra ASIs (on a build that doesn't really need too many feats to function). None of the remaining battlemaster features are very good with the exception of the capstone, after all. (woo, my d8s are now d10s... yaaay...)

In addition, the more I invest in sneak attack the better the damage output of my Opportunity Attacks from Sentinel and Riposte, right? I'm essentially able to double-dip on sneak attack die because of how consistently I can get off-turn melee attacks, increasing their value greatly. Whereas I don't see getting the same value from investing past level 5 on the Fighter.

[swamp_slug]

Since you don't have any other melee characters in the party I would also recommend Fighter 5 / Rogue 3 with a melee focus. Invest heavily in Dexterity and use a Rapier and Shield and pick Dueling Fighting Style for extra damage.

For Maneuvers I would recommend starting with Riposte and Trip Attack. Trip Attack allows you to get advantage on following attacks in case you find yourself in a situation where you can't get Sneak Attack, and Riposte allows you to get an attack as a reaction for another chance to get Sneak Attack in the round, because Sneak Attack is once per turn not per round. Following that I would also recommend the Sentinel feat: it makes you stickier to help protect your allies, but also gives you another trigger for a reaction attack. Your Sneak Attack will never be huge, especially if you focus on Fighter, but extra damage is always nice to have.

Shield Master is a good feat but you may want to speak to your DM about the timing issues. RAW, you must attack before you can shield bash and knock prone (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/18/this-is-a-bad-ruling-as-you-are-completely-removing-the-reason-most-people-take-shield-master/). As a Rogue, you could also put your Expertise into Athletics and not need to invest too heavily in Strength for this.

For Rogue subclass, Swashbuckler is a good pick for the extra Initiative and mobility but I would also recommend Inquisitive. Depending on how you choose to progress you may never get the Rogue's Reliable Talent, which makes the Inquisitive's Ear for Deceit useful throughout your career. Furthermore, if you don't take Shield Master then you have little use for your Bonus Action besides the occasional Second Wind so Insightful Fighting can almost guarantee you Sneak Attack against one target regardless of what your allies are doing. I would recommend high Wisdom and Expertise in at least Insight if going down this route.
The Assassin's Assassinate feature might look tempting but it relies on you going first and I've seen my group's Rogue end up unsupported when combat starts just so he can benefit from the feature. Not worth it IMO.

Looking at your stat array I would recommend putting the 16 into Dex and boost it to 18 at Fighter 4. The 15 and 13 should go into Con and either Wis/Cha depending on Rogue subclass with racial bonuses these become 16 and 14. The others can be distributed as you see fit.

[Man_Over_Game]

Could you expand on why more rogue levels isn't worth pursuing, or how more Fighter levels will improve my "overall combat experience"?

I don't see the later fighter levels being particularly attractive with the exception of extra ASIs (on a build that doesn't really need too many feats to function). None of the remaining battlemaster features are very good with the exception of the capstone, after all. (woo, my d8s are now d10s... yaaay...)

In addition, the more I invest in sneak attack the better the damage output of my Opportunity Attacks from Sentinel and Riposte, right? I'm essentially able to double-dip on sneak attack die because of how consistently I can get off-turn melee attacks, increasing their value greatly. Whereas I don't see getting the same value from investing past level 5 on the Fighter.

Maxing out your combat stat is important for a Battlemaster, which is what the extra ASIs are good for. You learn more maneuvers as you level, as well as gaining more dice. If you take Fighter up to level 11, you get a third attack. And each Fighter level is getting you +1 more HP than you would have gotten as a Rogue.

As for feats, it's kinda difficult to tell what you might need in this phase, since you're unsure of exactly what build you want to go down, but each build has roughly 2 or so feats that contribute quite nicely to each concept:

Strength: Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master.

Balanced: Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert.

Sniper: Sharpshooter, Observant/Alert/Linguist

Melee Finesse: Dual Wielder/Shield Master, Sentinel, Tough.

Not to mention some of the unrelated picks that might be relevant to your version of "fun", like Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate, Elven Accuracy, or something along those lines.

As a primary Fighter, you'll be able to afford multiple feats, or be able to afford maxing out your HP, meaning you can stay in melee combat for much longer. With 2 ASIs into Constitution, as a Fighter, that's +3 more HP per level than you would have going a Rogue build.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I recently played in a game which I ran
Dex based Swashbuckler/Battlemaster and loved it, stuck to melee (ranged if needed but I frontline often)
Level 1 - Rouge (for extra skills ect)
Level 2 - 6 Battle master (extra att)
Level 7-12 I picked up rouge again.

Walk up, trip attack, attack again with advantage (crit fishing). Action surge 2 × more advantage attacks, add sneak attack.

Repose + Sneak attack when creatures miss you.

Sometimes walk up, hit 2 separate (4 with Action surge) targets and walk away without provoking opportunity attack. + keep your bonos action to Dash or off hand attack (I mostly dashed cause I went sword/shield for extra def.

[RulesJD]

Agree with most things here but would like to make some additions:

Go Fighter 3/Rogue 4/Sorc 1. Preferably Divine Sorc. Pick Guidance as one of your cantrips and Booming Blade as one of the other, and then Shield, Absorb Elements, and Bless for your Sorc spells.

As a Swashbuckler Rogue you'll be making a LOT of checks for Stealth, Slight of Hand, Thieves' Tools, Persuasion, etc. That Guidance 1d4 can be a massive help over the life of a campaign.

Shield and Absorb Ele because you'll be the only tank and will need all of the help you can get. Rogue 5 gets you Uncanny Dodge for eating the occasional crit, but Shield is miles better. It will prevent Sentinel and Riposte, but you can't do those when you're dead. Bless because you should be concentrating on something and Bless is a massive force multiplier.

Also, remember this combo. Booming Blade + Shoving attack + step out of enemy's range. If you're sure the enemy will approach you, then Action Surge + Readied Attack for enemy getting in melee. Alternatively, just Booming Blade for extra damage + Action Surge -> Readied Attack for the enemy doing anything at all. Guaranteed off-turn Sneak Attack. If you aren't concentrating on Bless you can Action Surge -> Ready Booming Blade for extra damage.

Booming Blade's extra damage, given the Swashbucklers ability to have almost guaranteed Sneak Attack + free disengage, will quickly out damage Extra Attack, insofar as you hit. With Precision die and/or Bless, you'll be hitting often.

[Trustypeaches]

Maxing out your combat stat is important for a Battlemaster, which is what the extra ASIs are good for. You learn more maneuvers as you level, as well as gaining more dice. If you take Fighter up to level 11, you get a third attack. And each Fighter level is getting you +1 more HP than you would have gotten as a Rogue.

As for feats, it's kinda difficult to tell what you might need in this phase, since you're unsure of exactly what build you want to go down, but each build has roughly 2 or so feats that contribute quite nicely to each concept:

Strength: Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master.

Balanced: Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert.

Sniper: Sharpshooter, Observant/Alert/Linguist

Melee Finesse: Dual Wielder/Shield Master, Sentinel, Tough.

Not to mention some of the unrelated picks that might be relevant to your version of "fun", like Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate, Elven Accuracy, or something along those lines.

As a primary Fighter, you'll be able to afford multiple feats, or be able to afford maxing out your HP, meaning you can stay in melee combat for much longer. With 2 ASIs into Constitution, as a Fighter, that's +3 more HP per level than you would have going a Rogue build.I see your point, but I don't really think adding a die and a few maneuvers is going to make a big difference to my combat experience. It's good, sure, but the two levels I'd invest going from Fighter 5 to 7 could be spent upping my damage each round by 2d6 + grabbing Uncanny Dodge. Honestly I don't really know what other maneuvers I'll need besides Tripping, Riposte, and maybe Precision when I reeeally need to land a hit.

The only thing I have against Fighter 6 / Rogue 2 is that I don't think I can give up the Swashbuckler features at level 3, as they virtually ensure I can apply Sneak Attack damage to all my opportunity attacks.

As far as the extra ASIs go, Fighters only get 1 more than Rogue. And if I went Fighter 5 / Rogue 3, then I'd be maxing out my Dexterity next level when I reached Rogue 4. If I were going ranged focused, then yeah I'd want those feats to get Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter online immediately, but with a sword and board build (with option for ranged) I don't think I need more than Sentinel and maybe Shield Master.

Side Note: The DM just told me he would be fine with me taking the Bonus Action shove from Shield Master before making any attacks, which is pretty big. Definitely grabbing Expertise Athletics now :smallbiggrin:

[Man_Over_Game]

As far as the extra ASIs go, Fighters only get 1 more than Rogue.

Fighters get a total of two more, one at 6th and another at 14th.

But based off of what you described, you have good enough points to know what direction you're wanting to take. I will say that there are a lot of good maneuvers that'd work well with some good tactics. Now, if you're just focusing on straight damage and nothing else, it might look like a much smaller list, but here are some options you didn't mention:

Ranged: Goading Strike, Menacing Attack, Manuvering Attack, Pushing Attack (off a cliff or into a fire), Disarming Attack (so that a teammate can swipe the item and disable the target).

Melee: Menacing Attack (frighten them, force them to take an Opportunity Attack), Pushing Attack, Maneuvering Attack, Feint Attack (grant yourself Advantage), Pushing Attack (move them so you can move away without an OA, use your Cunning Action to Dash).

[swamp_slug]

Fighters get a total of two more, one at 6th and another at 14th.

Rogues also get an extra one at 10th for 6 ASIs vs the Fighter's 7.

[Man_Over_Game]

Rogues also get an extra one at 10th for 6 ASIs vs the Fighter's 7.

Ah, right! I totally forgot about that one. My bad.

[Trustypeaches]

Fighters get a total of two more, one at 6th and another at 14th.

But based off of what you described, you have good enough points to know what direction you're wanting to take. I will say that there are a lot of good maneuvers that'd work well with some good tactics. Now, if you're just focusing on straight damage and nothing else, it might look like a much smaller list, but here are some options you didn't mention:

Melee: Menacing Attack (frighten them, force them to take an Opportunity Attack), Pushing Attack, Maneuvering Attack, Feint Attack (grant yourself Advantage), Pushing Attack (move them so you can move away without an OA, use your Cunning Action to Dash).
As a Swashbuckler, I wouldn't need to use a Maneuver to avoid opportunity attacks without Disengaging. If I end up grabbing Shield Master, Feint Attack and Pushing Attack will also become substantially lower value. Maneuvering Attack could be useful to help my allies escape dangerous situations, but it only prevents opportunity attacks from the target of my attack which makes it substantially less useful. Menacing is what I'm considering taking over Precision Attack, actually, since I don't have Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter to really abuse precision.

As for how well I know what I want, I'm still a bit torn between going Fighter 5 for Extra attack or going Fighter 3 and using SCAG cantrips.

[RulesJD]

As a Swashbuckler, I wouldn't need to use a Maneuver to avoid opportunity attacks without Disengaging. If I end up grabbing Shield Master, Feint Attack and Pushing Attack will also become substantially lower value. Maneuvering Attack could be useful to help my allies escape dangerous situations, but it only prevents opportunity attacks from the target of my attack which makes it substantially less useful. Menacing is what I'm considering taking over Precision Attack, actually, since I don't have Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter to really abuse precision.

As for how well I know what I want, I'm still a bit torn between going Fighter 5 for Extra attack or going Fighter 3 and using SCAG cantrips.

I've gone Fighter 3/Sorc 1/Rogue+ and highly recommend. Booming Blade + the post I wrote earlier is an absolute blast to play, especially if you like describing your actions.

[Trustypeaches]

Oof I also get to pick 2 uncommon magic items.

Besides a +1 weapon, I'm torn between Winged Boots and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength (even on a dex character, the boost to athletics for my Shield Master shoves would be great).

[Zobo]

As a Swashbuckler Rogue you'll be making a LOT of checks for Stealth, Slight of Hand, Thieves' Tools, Persuasion, etc. That Guidance 1d4 can be a massive help over the life of a campaign.



If I play in any campaign and notice someone casting guidance and walking towards me, I turn hostile. Not swing swords hostile, but rather keep them at distance, be wary for something fishy.

What good motives would someone have to guidance themselves and talk to me?
umm....

What bad (for me) motives?
Stealing, lying, investigating, attacking...

What not exactly bad but certainly not beneficient to me motives?
Persuading me to do something for them, begging.

Casting guidance should be viewed with hostility. By npc's with brains, too.

[RulesJD]

If I play in any campaign and notice someone casting guidance and walking towards me, I turn hostile. Not swing swords hostile, but rather keep them at distance, be wary for something fishy.

What good motives would someone have to guidance themselves and talk to me?
umm....

What bad (for me) motives?
Stealing, lying, investigating, attacking...

What not exactly bad but certainly not beneficient to me motives?
Persuading me to do something for them, begging.

Casting guidance should be viewed with hostility. By npc's with brains, too.

Sure, if you see them. Literally the point of a Rogue is to not be seen. Spell lasts for a minute, more than plenty of time to go start talking with a person. Cast it from around the corner, before you enter the shop, whatever. Always available? Of course not. But available enough to be massively useful? Yup.

See, players can be smart too.

[Trustypeaches]

Sure, if you see them. Literally the point of a Rogue is to not be seen. Spell lasts for a minute, more than plenty of time to go start talking with a person. Cast it from around the corner, before you enter the shop, whatever. Always available? Of course not. But available enough to be massively useful? Yup.

See, players can be smart too.
It’s worth mentioning that spellcasting is obvious and guidance has both somatic and verbal components. So it wouldn’t be super easy to perform from stealth without revealing your position.

As far as using it before a skill check, that relies on you knowing that the skill check will take place within the next minute. This is mostly relevant with your example of using Guidance for social skills, like Persuasion and Deception. The DM decides when you roll for checks, and you can’t guarantee you’ll get to that point within a minute of a conversation.

A trick I’ve been using on my Tomelock actually is placing my familiar on an ally and repeatedly cast guidance remotely through it, giving them continuous benefits without needing to be present or making it obvious to those around the target.

Put the weasel in the rogue’s pocket and provide them 1d4 on all their stealth, perception, investigation, etc. checks
Put the weasel in our bards pocket when he goes to negotiate with the nobleman.
Etc.


It basically works around the two biggest flaws with guidance: that it’s obvious and that your character must be present to use it.

[RulesJD]

It’s worth mentioning that spellcasting is obvious and guidance has both somatic and verbal components. So it wouldn’t be super easy to perform from stealth without revealing your position.

As far as using it before a skill check, that relies on you knowing that the skill check will take place within the next minute. This is mostly relevant with your example of using Guidance for social skills, like Persuasion and Deception. The DM decides when you roll for checks, and you can’t guarantee you’ll get to that point within a minute of a conversation.

A trick I’ve been using on my Tomelock actually is placing my familiar on an ally and repeatedly cast guidance remotely through it, giving them continuous benefits without needing to be present or making it obvious to those around the target.
Put the weasel in the rogue’s pocket and provide them 1d4 on all their stealth, perception, investigation, etc. checks
Put the weasel in our bards pocket when he goes to negotiate with the nobleman.
Etc.
It basically works around the two biggest flaws with guidance: that it’s obvious and that your character must be present to use it.

One rather unfortunate downside of 5e is the lack of specifics regarding how spell components (Verbal/Somatic) actually work. Most people have a picture in their mind for how it operates, and then assume that's the way it does by the rules. As-is, there is no set rule for how loud a verbal component has to be, or how eccentric a somatic component has to be. There is text that clear says you can cast a spell on a creature without it knowing, but then it doesn't say how or why they might not know. Is there a certain range beyond which Verbal components would no longer be heard?

There is vaguely supported evidence that you can try to hide spellcasting (Season 2 AL spellcasting rules that got WotC signoff'ish) via Stealth/Slight of Hand checks. But then there is Sorcerer Metamagic specifically to avoid V and S components. So who knows. *shrug*

[Trustypeaches]

One rather unfortunate downside of 5e is the lack of specifics regarding how spell components (Verbal/Somatic) actually work. Most people have a picture in their mind for how it operates, and then assume that's the way it does by the rules. As-is, there is no set rule for how loud a verbal component has to be, or how eccentric a somatic component has to be. There is text that clear says you can cast a spell on a creature without it knowing, but then it doesn't say how or why they might not know. Is there a certain range beyond which Verbal components would no longer be heard?

There is vaguely supported evidence that you can try to hide spellcasting (Season 2 AL spellcasting rules that got WotC signoff'ish) via Stealth/Slight of Hand checks. But then there is Sorcerer Metamagic specifically to avoid V and S components. So who knows. *shrug*At the very least we can say that spellcasting is observable and in most settings magic is treated with great suspicion and caution.

[RulesJD]

At the very least we can say that spellcasting is observable and in most settings magic is treated with great suspicion and caution.

No, no we can't say that. If a spell only requires Somatic components but you can do those components with forceful twisting of the wrist, and I have a big fluffy jacket on with large arms and my hands behind my back, how would you know? Or the trope of pointing a finger and an object lifting off the ground via Telekinesis, but I do it in a crowded tavern with a lot of noise, how would you know?

Ever overhear someone speaking in a foreign language and have no idea what they're saying? How do you know it's not some arcane incantation with only a verbal component?

That's the point I'm getting at. It's certainly reasonable to assume that verbal and somatic components require loudly shouting strange words and flailing your arms wildly, that's how magic is typically portrayed in movies. But that isn't required under the rules of 5e. Even JC (praise be) has weighed in that it's up to the DM how much is involved, which is fine but somewhat unfortunate.

[Skylivedk]

How long do you expect to play?

For quite some levels, I expect the extra attack and ASI from Fighter 5 (later 6, whenever you need a feat) will be better for you. I'd definitely go 5/3 first more or less regardless of which class you choose as your primary.

Trip is meh, especially if you're looking at Shield Master. Precision is solid gold though, especially as you level rogue more. Later on, missing 4-8 d6 because you rolled 1 too little in your D20 is very very expensive. Remember, most combats are 3-4 rounds. One without your alpha strike might easily mean bbeg takes out a round of friendly actions. Trip on the other hand does very little when the rest of the party is far away and ranged.

Riposte
Precise
Menacing

are my recommendations. Go for fighter first. Evasion decreases the value of having prof in dexterity saving throws. If you pick up RES: WIS, start with prof con from fighter and have evasion, you're stellar for most of the main saves.

With your stats, consider Arcane Trickster (depends on campaign length) and ask your ranged allies for summoned comrades... Or be confident in shield bashing ;) remember a familiar can often do the same as your swashbuckler ability, and it's just one small part of your class ability rather than half of it.

[Trustypeaches]

As an update, another player has joined the campaign and has decided to play an Oath of Vengeance Paladin using Great Weapon Master. So there will be another melee PC who can take advantage of me proning enemies with Shield Master and will also give me more consistent Sentinel Attacks.


How long do you expect to play?It's dungeon of the mad mage, so in theory up to level 20.


Trip is meh, especially if you're looking at Shield Master. Precision is solid gold though, especially as you level rogue more. Later on, missing 4-8 d6 because you rolled 1 too little in your D20 is very very expensive. Remember, most combats are 3-4 rounds. One without your alpha strike might easily mean bbeg takes out a round of friendly actions. Trip on the other hand does very little when the rest of the party is far away and ranged.

Riposte
Precise
MenacingI think I'm going to go with Disarming Strike over Menacing, because combined with Sentinel I can lock a melee enemy down by disarming them and kicking the weapon out of their reach. If they try to go for it and I land the opportunity attack (with precision if they try to dodge) I can waste their whole action, potentially for multiple rounds.

I also plan on using Disarming Attack to deprive spellcasters of their Arcane Foci and Holy Symbols, limiting their spellcasting.



With your stats, consider Arcane Trickster (depends on campaign length) and ask your ranged allies for summoned comrades... Or be confident in shield bashing ;) remember a familiar can often do the same as your swashbuckler ability, and it's just one small part of your class ability rather than half of it.I don't think I could reasonably rely on a familiar for Sneak Attack. Any AoE ability would murder it, or a single hit from a multi-attack enemy.

Additionally I can't guarantee that my familiar will be where I want it to be so I can benefit from sneak attack on opportunity / sentinel / riposte attacks, a consideration I don't have to make with Swashbuckler.

[Bloodcloud]

Swashbuckler 3 fighter battlemaster 5, upping rogue afterward. Take sentinel asap.

Put enemies in a ****ty position where attacking you means a Riposte manoeuvre sneak attack and moving away means a Sentinel sneak attack. That should allow you to do some decent tanking and plenty of damage.

All dex based of course. Both two weapon fighting and dueling style work all right here, and defence is worth considering.

[RulesJD]

Still recommend Fighter 3/Rogue+, especially now that you have a 'main tank'. Extra Attack adds so little damage unless you miss your Sneak, while slowing down your progression towards Uncanny Dodge + Evasion. With Precision and not using GWM/SS, that's highly, highly unlikely.

As for maneuvers, I think you're good with Disarming, Precision, and Riposte.

Disarming + Booming Blade + Picking up weapon/spellcasting focus and walking away is always fun. The only downside of Disarming is that it doesn't do much against enemies with natural weapons (Demons, Undead, etc). So it may be a campaign setting specific choice.

[Corran]

As an update, another player has joined the campaign and has decided to play an Oath of Vengeance Paladin using Great Weapon Master. So there will be another melee PC who can take advantage of me proning enemies with Shield Master and will also give me more consistent Sentinel Attacks.

To use sentinel well, you need to counteract the attention it will draw. To do that, you need riposte (hence battlemaster fighter) and a very very good effective AC. I'd pick arcane trickster as the rogue subclass (I'd dump int in favor of more points to con) so that I could use blur (and in some rare cases protection from evil). Action surge helps you set this up without missing attack opportunities. Defense for fighting style, and a shield in your of hand. If you go with a str build, obviously fullplate. I would definitely start as a fighter for the better save proficiencies (and for the heavy armor that a str build would obviously need), but I would take resilient wisdom at some point for sure. To boost attack, and since we would have gone already with 3 levels in fighter, I would go up to fighter 5 for extra attack. Makes your sneak attack damage more reliable and helps you create advantage when you need it. If you use the good version of SM, then you might even delay extra attack till level 10 or thereabout. To boost sentinel attacks you could use the familiar. Other ways of boosting attack is through the precision maneuver. I would pick feinting as my 3rd maneuver (precision and riposte will have no problem chewing through my superiority dice, so I dont mind picking a 3rd maneuver that is situational, especially when it guards me against disadvantage that shuts down sneak attack), for when I dont want to take chances about cancelling disadvantage. At level 8, I would start either as fighter 5/ rogue 3, or as fighter 3/ rogue 5. In whatever case, I would plan for fighter 5/rogue 5 at cl 10, and for fighter 5/ rogue 7 at cl 12. I'd grab sentinel at cl 9, I think it's safer not to rush it. Final build either fighter 6/rogue14 or fighter7/rogue13.

[djreynolds]

I would go high elf and grab your cantrip this way, darkvision is a must

Expertise and that 12 (or more) in strength should be enough to shove with shield master, but remember you will not always be able to use cunning action's bonus action though

I would personally grab the extra attack of the fighter and the reason is resting, even short resting in this adventure could be difficult and your maneuvers will go quickly, so you want the extra attack so you can land that sneak attack if you run out of precision maneuvers

I like precision and menacing, disarm is all right.... I actually like rally (it is cheap, and requires sight or sound... not bad)

It is of course a toss up, 3rogue/5BM of 5 rogue/3bm. With a 16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 9 in your stats, you'll have a decent strength and dex, and a decent con also

Awesome rolls, and great combo battlemaster and swashbuckler

[Trustypeaches]

Still recommend Fighter 3/Rogue+, especially now that you have a 'main tank'. Extra Attack adds so little damage unless you miss your Sneak, while slowing down your progression towards Uncanny Dodge + Evasion. With Precision and not using GWM/SS, that's highly, highly unlikely.Extra Attack adds 1d8 + DEX + 2 + 1 for me right now, which is an average of 11.5 damage. Splitting my damage into multiple attacks makes me less spikey, while also letting me perform maneuvers more consistently. With the increased accuracy to proc sneak attack, I don’t have to spend superiority die on Precision Attack, meaning I have more die for Ripostes. In addition, it doubles the damage output of my action surge.

On the other hand, for the two levels I’d gain from Rogue, I’d get one sneak attack die, 1d6 (3.5) extra damage. I’d get Uncanny Dodge, which while useful, competes with my stacked reaction economy between sentinel and Riposte.

To even out the damage lost, I’d need the SCAG cantrips. Either I would need to spend a feat on Magic Initiate (forcing me to drop Shield Master or Sentinel) or I would need to choose the Arcane Trickster subclass. Going Arcane Trickster over Swashbuckler would reduce the reliability of my sneak attack, especially on with my reaction-based attacks where I have less control over my and my target’s positioning. In addition, my Ranged damage output will be a substantially weaker, since the loss of extra attack isn’t compensated by anything like Booming Blade. Finally, I would be waiting 3 levels until my next ASI, rather than 1.

The damage I’d gain from booming blade is significant: 1d8(4.5) on the initial attack and 2d8(9) on the rider. This, combined with the sneak attack die, is 16 average damage, a larger damage boost than the 11.5 from extra attack. However, this depends on landing the Rider, which is much less consistent when (A) I don’t have the Swashbuckler free disengage to leave an enemy’s reach and (B) Sentinel already discourages enemies from moving away from me. This may improve my ability to “draw aggro” marginally, but in terms of damage I don’t think it’s consistent enough to compare to the output from Extra Attack.

The SCAG cantrips will grow more powerful when we hit level 11, sure, but many of those problems still remain, I think.

I’m still not sure between the two, I think if I went for Rogue 5 / Fighter 3 I’d need to drop shield master and focus entirely on being a skirmisher. Definitely possible.

[Misterwhisper]

With that group set up it is going to be a hard trip.

I would just go fighter 8.

3 asi is great.

I am not sure on the v human though.
You should have plenty of feats.

Battlemaster is always solid gold in my book.

As the only really close combat guy though the added defense of eldritch knight comes in handy.

How about this?

Warforged juggernaut
Fighter Battlemaster 8
Fighting style dueling or defense

Asi:
Str + 2
PAM
Resilient wisdom

That should leave you:

Str 20
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 9

Ac: 21 with nothing but a mundane shield, 22 if you took defense.

Damage:
Assuming dueling style

Spear: 1d6 + str + 2 + whatever if you get a magic one
Bonus action 1d4 + str + 2

On top of the very nice immunities and resistances of the Warforged.

Rogues are much better as archers than melee.
Also with that group your skills are not needed.

[dragoeniex]

On the other hand, for the two levels I’d gain from Rogue, I’d get one sneak attack die, 1d6 (3.5) extra damage. I’d get Uncanny Dodge, which while useful, competes with my stacked reaction economy between sentinel and Riposte.

Not true! As someone playing Battlemaster 5, Swashbuckler 5 right now, I'd like to showcase how this is actually perfect reaction synergy. Your Riposte maneuver triggers "when a creature misses you with a melee attack."

So let's look at what happens if you sidle up to an opponent with your Sentinel, Riposte, and Uncanny Dodge. Their options for attacking become:

1. Attack you and hit --- Uncanny Dodge cuts damage in half, punishing them for hitting you.
2. Attack you and miss --- Riposte Sneak Attack shanks them for having the gall to attack you at all.
3. Say **** this and move toward someone else --- Sentinel Sneak Attack says "I'd prefer you stay here, thanks."
4. Long-range attack your friends --- Sentinel Sneak Attack says "You can go over there, but first, here's pain."

And if they do long-range attack your friend and move that way after you Sentinel punish them (0 movement only applies on AoO), be sure to catch them on your turn with that free bonus action dash.

Maybe smack them with Goading Attack for good measure. Just so they get the point.




Pushing Attack makes it fun to run in, smack an enemy away from your friend, then chase after with your BA to force the above, protective scenario. Goading Attack is just A+ because you can also apply it with a longbow if you want to protect your friends from 100+ feet back because of all the attacks you took being the annoying pseudo-tank.

[bid]

Extra Attack adds 1d8 + DEX + 2 + 1 for me right now, which is an average of 11.5 damage. Splitting my damage into multiple attacks makes me less spikey, while also letting me perform maneuvers more consistently. With the increased accuracy to proc sneak attack, I don’t have to spend superiority die on Precision Attack, meaning I have more die for Ripostes. In addition, it doubles the damage output of my action surge.

On the other hand, for the two levels I’d gain from Rogue, I’d get one sneak attack die, 1d6 (3.5) extra damage. I’d get Uncanny Dodge, which while useful, competes with my stacked reaction economy between sentinel and Riposte.
You'll get to BM 5 / swash 5 anyway, it comes down to what helps you more now.

Extra attack is almost necessary if you don't get advantage, and more damage is its own defense. With a shield offhand, misses will happen often. Riposte is a big enough retaliation that you might as well hold your reaction.


BM 5 / swash 3 is the best choice.

[sithlordnergal]

Hehehehe, let me make a fun suggestion:

Fighter 6 / Rogue 2

Race: Human Variant


Str: 9

Dex: 16

Con: 16

Int: 14

Wis: 12

Cha: 11



VA Human Feat: Crossbow Expert

Level 4 Fighter: Dex to 18

Level 6 Fighter: Sharpshooter


If you guys end up reaching level 10, go 2 more levels of Rogue. This is basically a machine gun build, allowing you to make 3 crossbow attacks every round, and 5 attacks every short rest with action surge. If you manage to find a way to get a hand crossbow that deals bonus damage, it can really stack up. As it is, Sharpshooter will allow you to add +10 damage to each shot

[Trustypeaches]

Alright let's talk about cool things you can do with Maneuvers, Shield Master, and Grapple.

The character I'm making is a practiced duelist; I imagine her Sneak Attack as the result of expert swordplay more so than underhanded tactics, creating openings in her opponents defenses. Instead of a shield, she uses a parrying dagger (mechanically the same).

What are some cool things I can do with maneuvers, grapples, shoves, Sentinel, and Shield Master in combat with this theme in mind?

[djreynolds]

Going variant human is okay.

But going high elf for your build is better.

Get Booming blade and darkvision and +2 to dex

I think this will be better for you right out of the gate. Yes you lose a feat, but get the cantrip you want for damage in booming blade, +2 in dex and darkvision.

I don't want to spoil undermountain, but it is underground, darkvision will be helpful

[Lyracian]

I was about to start my own tread but as this is almost the same question I thought I would hijack this one.

We have converted our game to Fifth Ed and are Ninth Level. It is PHB only so going for Battle Master/Trickster.

Debating starting as Rogue or Fighter. Already have magical light armour so Defensive Fighting Style and Dex 20 means 19 AC or 21 with Shield. It means I will never make use of Heavy Armour proficiency so I trade out a skill to start with Con not Dex saves. Not sure it is worth it?

Was also looking at Mobile feat to make my Wood Elf have 45’ move but I see everyone here talking about Sentinal? Is Mobile worth taking?

[Trustypeaches]

I was about to start my own tread but as this is almost the same question I thought I would hijack this one.

We have converted our game to Fifth Ed and are Ninth Level. It is PHB only so going for Battle Master/Trickster.

Debating starting as Rogue or Fighter. Already have magical light armour so Defensive Fighting Style and Dex 20 means 19 AC or 21 with Shield. It means I will never make use of Heavy Armour proficiency so I trade out a skill to start with Con not Dex saves. Not sure it is worth it?

Was also looking at Mobile feat to make my Wood Elf have 45’ move but I see everyone here talking about Sentinal? Is Mobile worth taking?Sentinel gives you pretty reliable ways to get sneak attacks as a reaction. That’s the basic premise of the character.

[dragoeniex]

I was about to start my own tread but as this is almost the same question I thought I would hijack this one.

We have converted our game to Fifth Ed and are Ninth Level. It is PHB only so going for Battle Master/Trickster.

Debating starting as Rogue or Fighter. Already have magical light armour so Defensive Fighting Style and Dex 20 means 19 AC or 21 with Shield. It means I will never make use of Heavy Armour proficiency so I trade out a skill to start with Con not Dex saves. Not sure it is worth it?

Was also looking at Mobile feat to make my Wood Elf have 45’ move but I see everyone here talking about Sentinal? Is Mobile worth taking?

Depends on what you want to focus on in play! Unless you'll have significant concentration spells you'll be using in melee some day, I'd take the dex save over the con. You can also cast and run to safety or hiding spots and peg arrows if that ever becomes a thing.

For the feats, Sentinel does have great reaction synergy but is by no means required. I'm looking at it on a future level and am enjoying my battlebuckler quite a lot without it. If you want to take the swashbuckler's trick of being able to disengage for free with Mobile, you'll be able to use your enhanced dash speed quite a lot to dip around the field!

If you'd rather lock people down, go Sentinel. If you'd rather weave in and out of reach, go Mobile.

I'd lean toward the latter, personally, since as a non-swasher getting sneak attack as a reaction is going to require you to have a friend in melee with you anyhow. But both are solid choices. And you can always come back for the other! This MC gets a lot of ASIs depending on how you split.

[djreynolds]

IMO sentinel requires teamwork.

It means you need to pair up with another melee combatant and the enemy has a real reason to consistently target your comrade over you.

So for example, if you are in melee as a rogue and your fighting side by side with a paladin and he is smiting everyone, then you may get in some real good use of the sentinel feat. But the high AC of the paladin may also deter the enemy from even chancing attacks as they are regularly wasted... but the rogue is studded leather looks very appealing.

I find sentinel works well with a barbarian or wild-shaped druid because their AC isn't really high.

Mobile works well, IMO, when you have multiple attacks you can spread out, a rogue still has his bonus action from cunning action to disengage with.

[Trustypeaches]

So for example, if you are in melee as a rogue and your fighting side by side with a paladin and he is smiting everyone, then you may get in some real good use of the sentinel feat. But the high AC of the paladin may also deter the enemy from even chancing attacks as they are regularly wasted... but the rogue is studded leather looks very appealing.The Fighter/Rogue would have maybe 1 less AC than the platemail Paladin, and the ability to deal high damage to attackers with Riposte. I don’t really see why they would be a more appealing target.

It’s also worth mentioning that Sentinel activates when an enemy “makes an attack” against a target other than you. It’s not just melee attacks.

[Corran]

The Fighter/Rogue would have maybe 1 less AC than the platemail Paladin, and the ability to deal high damage to attackers with Riposte. I don’t really see why they would be a more appealing target.

Because for enemies with just a decent hit chance against you, it will still be worth it to focus exclusively you. So unless your DM is pulling punches, this build can easily become a death trap if you don't find ways to raise your AC significantly. Besides, the higher the AC, the more you will be using riposte compared to uncanny dodge, and the more you will be using sentinel compared to riposte, so it's also an increase in efficiency.

[Trustypeaches]

Because for enemies with just a decent hit chance against you, it will still be worth it to focus exclusively you. So unless your DM is pulling punches, this build can easily become a death trap if you don't find ways to raise your AC significantly. Besides, the higher the AC, the more you will be using riposte compared to uncanny dodge, and the more you will be using sentinel compared to riposte, so it's also an increase in efficiency.I mean isn’t that the point of a tank, to direct more attacks to me and away from the squishies?

That said, I only get a single Sentinel Attack per round, and I’m sure enemies with 6+ INT can recognize when I can no longer take a reaction to strike, after which there’s no reason not to attack the more damaging target. Besides, if things get hairy I can always just bonus action disengage and skidaddle.

[djreynolds]

You have a great build, I played a strength based half-orc Battlemaster/Swashbuckler with shield master.... it was awesome.

And its good to have choices for your reaction... uncanny dodge, riposte, or sentinel

Shield master works well with dex based rogue/fighters as it does with strength based

Funny enough, I didn't use my maneuvers enough and I actually switched out duelist style.... cough... and took protection style

I found at higher levels saving hit points was more efficient than taking them.

What ever you choose will be great and you have uncanny dodge if you get targeted or riposte.

I really like riposte, menacing, precision, and rally is better than you think as its sight or hearing, no real range requirements written out and trip is also nice

[Corran]

I mean isn’t that the point of a tank, to direct more attacks to me and away from the squishies?

That said, I only get a single Sentinel Attack per round, and I’m sure enemies with 6+ INT can recognize when I can no longer take a reaction to strike, after which there’s no reason not to attack the more damaging target. Besides, if things get hairy I can always just bonus action disengage and skidaddle.
If your aim is to draw attacks, you are better off not taking the fighter levels. A melee rogue with sentinel is one of the best targets for the enemy. But I think that this kind of build works best if you try to optimize it's damage output while pumping defenses enough so that you can keep producing that damage output. To do that, you need to use riposte a lot more often than uncanny dodge, and sentinel a lot more than both. And to do that, you need a high effective AC which you must build without the help of reactions, because you reactions are committed elsewhere. Grabbing a few ways with which to generate advantage is the second thing I would look at doing. Both for increasing my dpr (of both my action and reaction) but also for cancelling disadvantage which on its own can shut me down.

ps: Cunning action (or feinting) + BB (+familiar) would be my back up tactics. The ones I fall back to when I no longer have someone fighting next to me (in your case, either because the paly dropped, or because he went chasing after a VoE target).

[djreynolds]

You know this is crazy, but since you are a rogue, you'll probably not run around in plate... which makes medium armor very viable

8 levels, I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring.

3 rogue swashbuckler
3 fighter (battlemaster)
2-3 barbarian

This build is actually kinda old but very viable as it is really self contained and needs no magic

And it works actually well with rapier/short sword and shield or dual wield.

You have advantage when needed
You have rage and later uncanny dodge
You have extra damage from rage it affect TWF with short swords

The fighter and barbarian are you base and then rogue. Simple yet elegant, and with your stats an elf would work, or human variant, but a mountain dwarf would also be sweet. 16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 9. These stats are quite nice.

Find or buy breastplate, darkvision by race or goggles

The paladin has your saves covered

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

I'm trying this one out now. It's pretty fun so far.

I leveled 2 rogue (going swashbuckler at higher levels because why not?) and 7 battlemaster. My end goal will be 12 BM/8 SB.

I started out with the dual wielder feat to wave around twin rapiers and get +1 AC, then I grabbed medium armor master because my guy found a belt of hill giant strength and in T3 I have access to a belt of fire giant strength, and at T4 access to a belt of storm giant strength.
I'm thinking alert will be a good feat to take, as well as tough, resilient (WIS) and savage attacker

As it is currently, I can attack 5 times in a turn if I action surge (with bonus action offhand) and blow my maneuvers. Trip attack + goading attack + push attack + attack + offhand, saving a maneuver for a riposte on the BBEG usually means he's dead.