DM says you can Coffee-lock, but you're capped on Sorcery Points and slots. What now?

[Man_Over_Game]

From this post:


As in, the DM only says you can have Sorcery Points up to amount indicated on the Sorcerer table. Which just translates to Sorcerer Point Maximum = Sorcerer Level. And spell slots are capped in the same way (using Multiclass rules when applicable).

So if you have 2 Sorcerer Points, are a level 3 Sorcerer, and you convert a spell slot to gain 4 Sorcery Points, your Sorcery Points cap out at 3. I do this at my own tables, to keep people from doing ludicrous stuff like coffee-lock. They still get the combo, but now they can't overcharge themselves into a giant battery, so you have to figure out how to spell your excessive number of spell slots on low-level, non-combat spells. And considering how few spells learned you get between Warlock and Sorcerer, this ends up balancing itself; do you pack a spell like Illusory Script, just so you can spend your excess amount of spell slots during rest hours, or do you just suck it up and deal with the fact that you're an infinitely-recharging battery with nothing to charge?


This is exactly what I present at my tables, but I'm interested to see what people would try to use all of that energy on when they could only use it on non-combat spells.

(Coffee-Lock is the combo using Short Rest recharging Warlock spell slots to convert into Sorcery Points from the Sorcerer features. Short Rest Spell Slots > Sorcery Points > Long Rest Spell Slots, repeat each Short Rest.)


So, Giants, what do you use your Coffee-lock spell slots to fuel? How do you still use your Coffee-lock combo when your Sorcery Points and Spell Slots are capped to your class (or multiclass) tables?

Do you just cast Mage Armor on everyone in the party? Do you leave Illusory Scripts everywhere (at 10g a pop)? Or do you just use it to quickly recharge between fights, like the murderhobos you are?

[Segev]

In this case, I look into my long-duration buffs and the like, especially those without Concentration. Mage armor is almost free, even without the Invocation, at this stage. Still also VERY useful for the dread coffeemancer: burn those animate dead re-ups and then recharge off the short rest.

[Keravath]

If you are truly into coffee-locking then you don't take a long rest and just continuously convert short rest warlock spell slots into sorcery points, purchasing the highest level spell slots available to you. This would be level 5 as a level 7 sorcerer. Or you can buy lots of first level spell slots that you can later convert back to sorcery points for either meta-magic or higher level spell slot purchases.

The only limit on spell slots occurs AFTER taking a long rest so you can have an infinite number of spell slots over a long enough time as long as you don't take a long rest. (Which is where all the arguing about not needing to sleep being equivalent to not needing a long rest comes in ... and the ability of a divine soul sorcerer to take greater restoration as a spell that they can use to cancel out the level of exhaustion the DM might decide to impose for not taking a long rest. This can be made much more efficient with a necklace of prayer beads since you only need one greater restoration/day.


On the other hand, if the DM says that you can never have any more spell slots at any time than that listed for the character (which the rules do not say) .. then a level 9 sorcerer could cast any spell from level 1->5 - refill the sorcery points, buy another slot and cast the spell again. Though, limiting the spell slots in this way, would pretty much nerf the idea of the coffee lock :) ... which is probably a good idea (I wouldn't let it fly in my games anyway).

[Dalebert]

Well your Sorcery points are capped by RAW but not your spell slots. DM is capping spell slots too?

[Man_Over_Game]

Well your Sorcery points are capped by RAW but not your spell slots. DM is capping spell slots too?

That's the intent, yes.

[Dalebert]

I would say that Nerfs sorcerers but they shouldn't be making slots with Sorcery points anyway. Sorlocks are the exception.

[sithlordnergal]

I would use all those low level slots for smites. Specifically I'd use that one invocation Bladelocks can get at level five to use as Smite fuel.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would say that Nerfs sorcerers but they shouldn't be making slots with Sorcery points anyway. Sorlocks are the exception.

That's kind of the intent, too. Technically, yes, a Sorcerer loses the ability to conjure a freakishly large spell slot with these rules, but doing so is usually a poor choice anyway. The only build this really hurts is a build that attempts to abuse the feature in the first place.

Kinda like a firewall. Sure, it negatively impacts the normal user a little bit, but it does a lot more than that.


I would use all those low level slots for smites. Specifically I'd use that one invocation Bladelocks can get at level five to use as Smite fuel.

There's a big caveat on that. Eldritch Smite are only able to be used with Warlock Spell Slots, as the ability says so.

Compare the difference between Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite (from Paladin). Divine Smite says a spell slot, but Eldritch Smite says Warlock spell slot.

As far as I know, Eldritch Smite is the only example of when a class specific spell slot is relevant. The developers are aware of it, have commented on it, and seem to plan to keep it that way, probably in an attempt to get people to stop dipping Warlock.

[DrKerosene]

Well your Sorcery points are capped by RAW but not your spell slots. DM is capping spell slots too?

If someone tried to force a Coffeelock PC into a Party/game where it’s not needed or something, I would probably just inform them they are limited to one additinal spell slot (...per castable sorcerer spell level).

I don’t recall any text specifically saying Sorcerers can stockpile additional spell slots, or have multiple spell slots of a single level, just that they can create one spell slot as a bonus action.

If pushed, I would refer to Temp HP, or stacking effects from the same source, as my reason for not allowing stockpiling of same level slots.

[NatureKing]

These seems like a way of nerfing coffee locks when you don't want people to play coffee locks. Just don't allow coffee locks.

[Vogie]

If you're capped on points and NUMBER of Slots, then just be a super-warlock. Crack your smaller slots into larger slots, until all of your slots are the largest possible.

[Temperjoke]

If I'm a divine sorcerer, turn leftover/extra spell slots into Continual Flame items that I can sell in town or use myself, assuming I can maintain a supply of ruby dust.

EDIT: You know, thinking about it, a divine sorcerer coffee-lock would be amazing. Think of all the healing you could dump into party members.

[Zuras]

If I'm a divine sorcerer, turn leftover/extra spell slots into Continual Flame items that I can sell in town or use myself, assuming I can maintain a supply of ruby dust.

EDIT: You know, thinking about it, a divine sorcerer coffee-lock would be amazing. Think of all the healing you could dump into party members.


Not just healing. Aid, Death Ward and other pre-healing too. Bonus points if using extended spell.

[Potato_Priest]

My one problem with this is that it causes issues for normal straight class sorcerer. When I played a sorcerer, by the time I got to level 7, I really had basically no use for first level spells (this might change now that absorb elements is a thing) so I tended to cannibalizes my lower level slots to get extra higher level ones. I definitely don’t think this is OP or game breaking either, just a cool choice that sorcerers can normally make.

[Spiritchaser]

Not just healing. Aid, Death Ward and other pre-healing too. Bonus points if using extended spell.

I’ve never done a detailed analysis, but I’ve always felt that a DS sorc was the only reasonable place to blow a metamagic pick on extended spell

(notwithstanding life cleric 1, druid 3, sorcerer/warlock builds intended to spam supercharged healing spirit with short rest slots in a (most likely doomed) attempt to functionally ignore the HP implications of a DM decision to use gritty realism rules.)

[Spiritchaser]

One thing sorcerers can do is pre-load large numbers of preferred level spell slots. It’s inefficient so it doesn’t come up on many characters, but some people might really want to cash in their off level slots for more of something else.

Are you permitting this?

[Swosh]

Personally i dont see the problem people have with Coffeelock. It just makes things more interesting having a different kind of build than everyone else. When going Coffeelock your trading one resource, namely your higher slots (6-9) for another (infinite resources of a lower lvl). If that wasn't enough, to fight off the exhaustion you need to have Greater restoration, making it even more troublesome.

Can coffeelock be effective? Sure, it can be very effective, but so can a lot of other builds. Considering the power level of a high lvl Wizard with Wish, Simulacrum, Contingency, Maze and Forcecage amoung others i wouldnt say that a Coffeelock is anything more than an interesting build and i dont see people banning being a Wizard for being overpowered.

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing sorcerers can do is pre-load large numbers of preferred level spell slots. It’s inefficient so it doesn’t come up on many characters, but some people might really want to cash in their off level slots for more of something else.

Are you permitting this?

The idea is that the Sorcerer's maximum number of spell slots AND Sorcery Points are listed on the Sorcerer's Class Table, unless you determine your spell slots from the Multiclass Spell Slot table.

So while you can't be a level 6 Sorcerer and make a 4th level spell slot, and you can't get more 3rd level slots than you have on the table(s), you can use up your 3rd level spell slots and replace them, or use your Sorcery Points on metamagic and replace them.

I feel that the niche of Sorcerers upcasting spells beyond their normal casting level is a niche circumstance that rarely comes up and is generally a poor choice when it does. In exchange, though, I feel I don't have to tell players that they can't use their Sorcerer/Warlock features. At least by judging on most people's responses. The biggest thing I'd have to worry about is something like Mage Armor on allies, or an Extended buff spell with a long duration.

Ask yourself, what comes up more: A Sorcerer stocking up on upcasted spell slots, or a Sorlock?

[Spiritchaser]

In response to what comes up most it is neither very often, however what has come up least infrequently (and I’ll leave the debate on the wisdom of this as a separate issue) is breaking mid level slots that are not used into lots and lots of shields, pre-loaded and good to go for any encounter. Upcast shadow blade would be a distant second. Mostly sorcery points get used for sorcery points and spells get used for spells.

Now: I’ve never had anyone try and exploit the coffee lock yet. This may have had something to do with a note I put in campaign briefs about what might be expected if anyone did.

I should probably re-write that note. There’s lots of room for me to make it more exciting and ominous.

[Man_Over_Game]

In response to what comes up most it is neither very often, however what has come up least infrequently (and I’ll leave the debate on the wisdom of this as a separate issue) is breaking mid level slots that are not used into lots and lots of shields, pre-loaded and good to go for any encounter. Upcast shadow blade would be a distant second. Mostly sorcery points get used for sorcery points and spells get used for spells.

Now: I’ve never had anyone try and exploit the coffee lock yet. This may have had something to do with a note I put in campaign briefs about what might be expected if anyone did.

I should probably re-write that note. There’s lots of room for me to make it more exciting and ominous.

I played around as one, but I just obeyed the same rulings as I posted on here, to avoid my DM's ire. It mostly just felt like I could recharge any spent metamagics or slots as needed, nearly infinitely. Not a huge deal, since I relied on the Quicken-EB combo for most of my damage and saved most of my Sorcerer spells for niche actions, but it was a really fun way of playing the build. Felt more like a Warlock with more versatility than it did a Sorcerer.

[Swosh]

In response to what comes up most it is neither very often, however what has come up least infrequently (and I’ll leave the debate on the wisdom of this as a separate issue) is breaking mid level slots that are not used into lots and lots of shields, pre-loaded and good to go for any encounter. Upcast shadow blade would be a distant second. Mostly sorcery points get used for sorcery points and spells get used for spells.

Now: I’ve never had anyone try and exploit the coffee lock yet. This may have had something to do with a note I put in campaign briefs about what might be expected if anyone did.

I should probably re-write that note. There’s lots of room for me to make it more exciting and ominous.

Well, thats what makes Cofeelock effective and not useless. If they only had infinite 1st and 2nd lvl slots they would be complete Garbage.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well, thats what makes Cofeelock effective and not useless. If they only had infinite 1st and 2nd lvl slots they would be complete Garbage.

Would you say that, considering the Sorcerer's Metamagic, the effectiveness of spells like Absorb Elements and Shield, that the Sorcerer + Warlock combo is worse than a similar multiclass between casters (Say, Bard + Sorcerer)?

I think that Sorcerer + Warlock is the best possible multiclass combination for casters, even after this change, and I'd like to know if anyone has information on another possible candidate.

[Swosh]

Would you say that, considering the Sorcerer's Metamagic, the effectiveness of spells like Absorb Elements and Shield, that the Sorcerer + Warlock combo is worse than a similar multiclass between casters (Say, Bard + Sorcerer)?

Only if you have access to 1st and 2nd lvl spells. 1st and 2nd lvl spells dont provide you with any significant impact mid-late game other than protection (Shield/Absorb Elements/Bless) and metamagic is not enough to change that. As a normal Coffeelock that has access to 1-5 lvl spells thats a different story. Is it better than a Bard + Sorcerer multiclass? Maybe, but I would think that their role is completely different. Some builds are obviously going to be better than others, but Cofeelock is far off the best build out there. You dont even have to multiclass to find a super powerful build just take a look at the Wizard or even a lvl 20 moon druid.




I think that Sorcerer + Warlock is the best possible multiclass combination, even after this change, and I'd like to know if anyone has information on another possible candidate.

As far as multiclasses go i would think that a Sorcadin is a strong contestor, but again they serve different roles. Sorcadin is usually more of a tank.

[Tanarii]

As far as I know, Eldritch Smite is the only example of when a class specific spell slot is relevant. The developers are aware of it, have commented on it, and seem to plan to keep it that way, probably in an attempt to get people to stop dipping Warlock.
All Invocations that use slots specify Warlock spells slots. At least, PhB ones do.

[Kyutaru]

Spend part of the day selling services to people who need a spellcaster for extra item wealth.

[Fable Wright]

So I've got a 3rd level Tome Warlock/3rd level Divine Soul Sorcerer at my table right now. With these exact restrictions She mostly uses her infinite stored 2nd level slots to (1) make sure that she's always good for more Action/Bonus Action Eldritch Blast Spam; (2) Healing Word on demand for the party; (3) Roleplay as a witch with inexhaustible magical potential. As it turns out, Enlarge/Reduce is an extremely versatile spell in non-combat (and combat) situations. Misty Stepping around is great for dramatic effect. Command at-will can be impressive.

Broken? Ehhhh. Armor of Agathys at 2nd level all the time is nice, but not great at level 6. Likewise Aid. Shepherd Druids are more durable with their Bear Totem. She is, however, perpetually useful, she's had a blast roleplaying it even if she can't Counterspell or Fireball yet, and infinite SP + Agonizing Blast makes it really difficult to fall behind in combat.