How would shipping be handled? Yes..odd question but it is for a character

[blackjack50]

So I’m a little curious how shipping of goods would be handled in the high fantasy setting of DND. Since it is a feudal system with budding merchant classes and guilds...it would be the normal fields and farms and mines to horse and cart to ships or boats. But how might magic change this?

The reason I ask is that I’m making a half elf bard who is on a quest to create a trade route through his poor village. He needs to establish business contacts, trade deals, and secure work a way to make his village relevant to the movement of goods in the world (basically I’m going with the Parthian/Persian concept).

So I know this will be different by each DM and how they handle it. But the way I’ve seen played in most games is that magic wouldn’t be used to move large quantities of goods. Or LARGE goods. So Stone or wood or food or gold? It would need to be moved in caravans or via boats and ships. Or are there spells that might be used to transport huge numbers of goods regularly? It seems teleport wouldn’t be able to manage that (one object per spell).

[Man_Over_Game]

So I’m a little curious how shipping of goods would be handled in the high fantasy setting of DND. Since it is a feudal system with budding merchant classes and guilds...it would be the normal fields and farms and mines to horse and cart to ships or boats. But how might magic change this?

The reason I ask is that I’m making a half elf bard who is on a quest to create a trade route through his poor village. He needs to establish business contacts, trade deals, and secure work a way to make his village relevant to the movement of goods in the world (basically I’m going with the Parthian/Persian concept).

So I know this will be different by each DM and how they handle it. But the way I’ve seen played in most games is that magic wouldn’t be used to move large quantities of goods. Or LARGE goods. So Stone or wood or food or gold? It would need to be moved in caravans or via boats and ships. Or are there spells that might be used to transport huge numbers of goods regularly? It seems teleport wouldn’t be able to manage that (one object per spell).

Tenser's Floating Disk is relatively affordable to cast, and carries more than a mule.

Familiars could be used to scout out areas and search for highwaymen or deliver messages to specific people.

Magic would be important for things like Construction (use Levitate or Fly, conjure entire walls with Wall of Stone, use Stone Shape to add details), but otherwise, you're mostly right. Magic is fairly limited on how well it can move stuff. It's mostly good for creating stuff, or for information management.

[jjordan]

Wow. Huge subject. In a Medieval-Renaissance (MR) situation shipping is fairly complex. You've got nation-states engaged in ham-fisted attempts to manipulate markets for their profit, burgeoning mercantile interests seeking to establish monopolies, and trade disparities that regularly led to economic collapse in a boom and bust cycle.

I'd suggest that you look at your environmental conditions to determine trade routes. Winds and currents will dictate what can be shipped where by sea and rivers and mountains will determine your land routes. Raw goods will go to processing centers and finished goods and money will go back to the harvesting areas.

To take advantage of trade the village needs to produce raw goods that are in demand, finished goods that take advantage of an abundance of raw materials produced by surrounding areas, or sit on top of a trade route. If it sits on top of an existing trade route then it needs to offer goods and services that traders need. The best place to be is at a trans-shipment point where goods are moved from one form of transport to another. If you are seeking to create a new route then you will need to create the physical route and then offer inducements for merchants to use this route rather than an older route. This is typically done by being faster, safer, or cheaper. So having better roads (or roads with better services), less crime, and lower taxes on goods passing through. You can also create a new route by opening up a new market. Do the orcs need weapons? Does your village have a market where they could buy those? Does the dragon nearby need specialty construction to fortify his lair? Did someone in your village create a portal to another realm/plane where goods can be traded? And so on.

Remember, breakage was a huge problem. In trade between Venice and Cairo it was normal for 75% of a fragile cargo (glass) to break. Sometimes entire cargos were destroyed. Small items that didn't break and had high demand were the best things to ship: gold, spices, silk, and so on. The heavier/bulkier the objects were, the less distance you wanted to ship them. Quarried stone isn't going to go more than a few days travel unless it's super fine stone in demand by people who can pay a lot for it. Timber isn't going to go terribly far unless there's a real need for it (Venice ship-builders, I'm looking at you). Chemicals and metals are likely to be refined near the site they are harvested from and then shipped to larger production centers for use.

[blackjack50]

Thanks guys. This helps a lot.

[Man_Over_Game]

On the topic of breakage and wind, don't forget that mid-level Storm Sorcerers can control the direction of wind fairly easily. They'd be able to dramatically shift how fast a ship could travel. Mending is also a fairly accessible cantrip, which might be relevant for repairing expensive goods. A shipping crew might just have a single magic specialist who repairs broken things and provides niche abilities (like levitate or Enhance Ability) whenever the crew needs it.

[RulesJD]

Just FYI, any remotely large city will have a permanent Teleportation Circle. It's a little over 18,000 gp, so not outside the range of most kingdoms. That would mean anything that can fit in a 10-ft diameter circle (aka most things that would be shipped in that era) will just be teleported to any other large settlement. In fact, it would likely be the very first thing after defenses that a settlement would build, given that it would solve pretty much every food/water/supply crises from that point forward. Most overland/sea trade would thus be limited to 'spoke' distributions of relatively small size from the major 'hubs'.

Ultra-rare materials would likely be kept in warded Demiplanes that could be accessed from anywhere with the proper knowledge. Likely major trade alliances would operate something akin to banks in this fashion, as well as rare components/high value magic items.

[Great Dragon]

The use of Teleportation Circles is going to go far, for this kind of thing.

Since 6-10 people carrying maximum loads each can be transferred each casting.
Keeping track of the component cost can be tedious.

Then there's Bags of Holding and Portable Holes, which can also be used with the above. (Lots of smuggling going on)

Now, this most likely will mean that Mages will try to create their own Monopolies, either as individuals, or more likely in guilds.

[RulesJD]

The use of Teleportation Circles is going to go far, for this kind of thing.

Since 6-10 people carrying maximum loads each can be transferred each casting.
Keeping track of the component cost can be tedious.

Then there's Bags of Holding and Portable Holes, which can also be used with the above. (Lots of smuggling going on)

Now, this most likely will mean that Mages will try to create their own Monopolies, either as individuals, or more likely in guilds.

*shrug*

From the OP: "Or are there spells that might be used to transport huge numbers of goods regularly?"

I mean a PTC literally does that. Most anything that would fit on a boat or a caravan will fit in a PTC, or at least be able to be broken down into pieces that can be sent through and pieced back together on the other side.

Then there's also the issue of Druids completely screwing up the entire agriculture segment depending on how the DM lets them act. Want to double your food output? Best pay up. Want to avoid bad weather? Make it rain (figuratively) or literally if you prefer.

[Chronos]

Well, you start with a pair of characters who seem like they'd make a pretty good couple, and then people start speculating about whether they will or won't, and...


Wait, what do you mean that's not what you meant?:smalltongue:

[Man_Over_Game]

Just FYI, any remotely large city will have a permanent Teleportation Circle. It's a little over 18,000 gp, so not outside the range of most kingdoms. That would mean anything that can fit in a 10-ft diameter circle (aka most things that would be shipped in that era) will just be teleported to any other large settlement. In fact, it would likely be the very first thing after defenses that a settlement would build, given that it would solve pretty much every food/water/supply crises from that point forward. Most overland/sea trade would thus be limited to 'spoke' distributions of relatively small size from the major 'hubs'.

Ultra-rare materials would likely be kept in warded Demiplanes that could be accessed from anywhere with the proper knowledge. Likely major trade alliances would operate something akin to banks in this fashion, as well as rare components/high value magic items.

The concern here is that there is nothing that prevents people from just using your Teleportation Circle willy-nilly. They know your glyph, and now they can teleport right inside of your home.

You could try to surround it with things like Hallow or Guards and Wards, but it might not always be enough. The other concern is that in order to teleport, you have to create a portal with the level 5 spell itself. Which is limited to Wizards, as far as I remember.

So you need a level 9+ Wizard. Assuming 5% of your populace are people with levels, the number of people per each level decreases by 30% each step (so that there are 70 level 2s for every 100 level 1s, which eventually means 1 level 20 per every 900 level 1s), and that 1/12 of those leveled characters are Wizards, and you're looking at effectively:

1 out of 4200 people being capable of opening a portal.

The portal only lasts 1 round, and you only ever get 2 casts per caster. The problem is that it'd take a lot of work to set up, a lot of work to protect, and you'll probably only have two wizards on staff (in a city of 10000+) to man this thing. So it's no wonder that most teleportation circles are kept hidden, because usually there's only one person in the whole city that can probably use the darn thing (and that's the guy who made it!).



This is unless the city has a disproportionate ratio of leveled people, Wizards, or some other reason one of the numbers is jacked up. These are just some estimates based on some reasonable numbers.

[Kyutaru]

Shipping would likely be handled on a consignment basis. You hire a company that specializes in moving goods to move your goods. They pay a percentage or flat rate or whatever you negotiate to take the cargo to its destination. You also need to take into account the dangers of traveling and ensure they are sufficiently staffed to guard the merchandise. The most reliable freight companies will see continued business while the most foolish ones will get eaten by ogres.

[Honest Tiefling]

If by DnD setting, you mean Forgotten Realms, Ed Greenwood did write a series on Sembia, which is known for trade. The series, however, was written for 3rd edition...But might still be able to plunder it for ideas. And since it never got referenced in any book, I'd say you have a good argument to plop it down wherever. It does however, address the NON-MAGICAL aspects of trading, which might or might not be what your character is doing.

Here's the link to the second bid, as the first one is just about Sembia itself and is therefore useless for this task. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20050302a)

[RulesJD]

Every PTC I've ever seen had the capability to travel from one PTC to another PTC, without the need to cast the spell. In fact, that exact description is in Horde of the Dragon Queen, the very first full official 5E campaign. All you needed was the passcode/sigil sequence.

Basically it lets anyone with the proper knowledge use the PTC to travel to another PTC. The spell itself even says "Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines." So whatever logistics issues there would be (namely security) are obviously outweighed by the benefits. Given the other magical means of teleportation and ambushes, that's not that big of a risk.

I would say, for an enterprising Bard, the best way to get an actual trade route established would be to find a useful resource that is not too valuable. Lower cost spell components that are regularly consumed (powders, incenses, chalks, etc) but not valuable enough to warrant a full PTC/Demiplane setup would likely be valuable enough to establish an overland trade route to the nearest large settlement.

[jjordan]

If a Permanent Teleport Circle (PTC) can connect to any other PTC without the need for a wizard casting a spell then the world is truly going to turn upside down.

All that stuff I wrote about winds and currents? Who cares? As soon as one PTC is established at a transoceanic destination there's no need for long-distance oceanic travel. Most maritime activities would be local fishermen, some of whom might venture out for several days at the most. Trade monopolies based on chokepoints? Gone. Long distance overland travel routes? Rarities. Everything will be centered around the PTCs. You could have entire nations based on a shared trade ethos and PTCs that aren't even geographically contiguous. Isolated city states surrounded by little towns and villages that produce the agricultural goods they require. Cities located in the middle of locations that can't possibly support them. Ultrapowerful guilds of mages that control transportation and communication and probably banking too. Very robust customs/immigration services and generally smaller armies. Bigger cities, for certain.

[Great Dragon]

@RulesJD: I think you ninja'd me while I was still in the process of posting.

And, yes - I've had the Druid version of the mob being the "Plot Goal" of several of my games. 😸

@Man_Over_Game:
While I was aware of some of the problems, I didn't know the numbers involved. Thanks!

Yes, the problems in setting up a PTC are many. Initial cost. Maintenance costs. Defense strategies.

And now I'm aware of the odds of there being a 9th level Wizard attending the PTC (because the Archmage that may have set the PTC in place is much too "busy" to babysit it!!)

I'm guessing that you need a city at least three times bigger than Waterdeep for a chance for an Archmage?

(I'm figuring that Waterdeep is about the size of Portland OR; and while NYC is "smaller" it has a huge population density.)

Would you base that chance on their CR (12) or their 18 levels?

[Man_Over_Game]

@RulesJD: I think you ninja'd me while I was still in the process of posting.

And, yes - I've had the Druid version of the mob being the "Plot Goal" of several of my games. ��

@Man_Over_Game:
While I was aware of some of the problems, I didn't know the numbers involved. Thanks!

Yes, the problems in setting up a PTC are many. Initial cost. Maintenance costs. Defense strategies.

And now I'm aware of the odds of there being a 9th level Wizard attending the PTC (because the Archmage that may have set the PTC in place is much too "busy" to babysit it!!)

I'm guessing that you need a city at least three times bigger than Waterdeep for a chance for an Archmage?

(I'm figuring that Waterdeep is about the size of Portland OR; and while NYC is "smaller" it has a huge population density.)

Would you base that chance on their CR (12) or their 18 levels?

I think it'd be easier to base things off of levels than CR. For a level 18+ character, with these calculations, you're looking at about 1 every 157k people. Of course, this is assuming an equal number of Arch-anything. Arch Clerics, Arch Druids, Arch Fighters, etc. Assuming each class has a 1/12 chance of showing up, then it'd be 157k.

Not sure what the size of Waterdeep is, though. Don't have the books in front of me, just an excel spreadsheet.

But if we made some modifications, like making it so that 10% of your population are leveled, and that there are more higher level characters (so 20% decrease per level instead of 30%), your totals would be:

Level 9: 1 out of every 760 people.

Archwizard (level 18): 1 out of 1.1k.

Level 20: 1 for every 69 level 1s, or one out of every 343 leveled people, or one out of every 3429 people.

[JackPhoenix]

Every PTC I've ever seen had the capability to travel from one PTC to another PTC, without the need to cast the spell. In fact, that exact description is in Horde of the Dragon Queen, the very first full official 5E campaign. All you needed was the passcode/sigil sequence.

Basically it lets anyone with the proper knowledge use the PTC to travel to another PTC. The spell itself even says "Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines." So whatever logistics issues there would be (namely security) are obviously outweighed by the benefits. Given the other magical means of teleportation and ambushes, that's not that big of a risk.

Then every PTC you've ever seen doesn't adhere to actual rules of the spell. Permanent circle is a destination, but you still need the spell to travel there.

[blackjack50]

On the topic of breakage and wind, don't forget that mid-level Storm Sorcerers can control the direction of wind fairly easily. They'd be able to dramatically shift how fast a ship could travel. Mending is also a fairly accessible cantrip, which might be relevant for repairing expensive goods. A shipping crew might just have a single magic specialist who repairs broken things and provides niche abilities (like levitate or Enhance Ability) whenever the crew needs it.

This is actually something I meant to ask. How common is a magic user in the world? Like...I get that levels would change how common a type of user is...but like wouldn’t most people be a level 0? Average people? So travel should be easy to manage on a ship.

[JackPhoenix]

This is actually something I meant to ask. How common is a magic user in the world? Like...I get that levels would change how common a type of user is...but like wouldn’t most people be a level 0? Average people? So travel should be easy to manage on a ship.

Well, it is assumed most people don't have any class levels, as PC classes are for PCs.

[Man_Over_Game]

This is actually something I meant to ask. How common is a magic user in the world? Like...I get that levels would change how common a type of user is...but like wouldn’t most people be a level 0? Average people? So travel should be easy to manage on a ship.

There's no solid answer on that one. 6/12 of the potential classes are magical, with another 3/12 using partial magic, and another 2/12 being capable of learning magic.

In something like Eberron or Ravnica, it's kind of assumed everyone can use magic. In Faerun, much less so.

[Great Dragon]

@Man_Over_Game:
IiRC Waterdeep is around 200k.
So, maybe one of the Arch/s would be there?
Does that number appt to each Arch type, or is it 157k each? 1,884,000 population for all 12, not counting Subclasses.

Was "??" in quoted part a request for information on that subject?
Just making sure.

[blackjack50]

The concern here is that there is nothing that prevents people from just using your Teleportation Circle willy-nilly. They know your glyph, and now they can teleport right inside of your home.

You could try to surround it with things like Hallow or Guards and Wards, but it might not always be enough. The other concern is that in order to teleport, you have to create a portal with the level 5 spell itself. Which is limited to Wizards, as far as I remember.

So you need a level 9+ Wizard. Assuming 5% of your populace are people with levels, the number of people per each level decreases by 30% each step (so that there are 70 level 2s for every 100 level 1s, which eventually means 1 level 20 per every 900 level 1s), and that 1/12 of those leveled characters are Wizards, and you're looking at effectively:

1 out of 4200 people being capable of opening a portal.

The portal only lasts 1 round, and you only ever get 2 casts per caster. The problem is that it'd take a lot of work to set up, a lot of work to protect, and you'll probably only have two wizards on staff (in a city of 10000+) to man this thing. So it's no wonder that most teleportation circles are kept hidden, because usually there's only one person in the whole city that can probably use the darn thing (and that's the guy who made it!).



This is unless the city has a disproportionate ratio of leveled people, Wizards, or some other reason one of the numbers is jacked up. These are just some estimates based on some reasonable numbers.



This is actually REALLY important. It is actually the same basic idea in real life. It is why we still use cargo ships still. They carry so much weight that they save money. It is slow, but crazy efficient. Costs per mile per ton is vastly superior. So the same could be said here. Instant travel is the equivalent of air freight. It would be crazy expensive for large items. Or rather...bulk ones.

[Man_Over_Game]

@Man_Over_Game:
IiRC Waterdeep is around 200k.
So, maybe one of the Arch/s would be there?
Does that number appt to each Arch type, or is it 157k each? 1,884,000 population for all 12, not counting Subclasses.

Was "??" in quoted part a request for information on that subject?
Just making sure.

Gotcha. I mean, within 157k people, there is an "arch" (level 18+) of every class.

So if you want an "Arch" of every subclass in the game, well, multiply that by the number of subclasses per class. There's about 5/6 per class, so... about 800k people?

[Aprender]

I am writing in further support of how cost efficient it is to move large amounts of goods over water.

Spells expire (tenser's lasts an hour) and slots run out and require extremely expensive investment in the caster.

Mules tire and need constant maintenance by experts.

There is a reason most pre-modern large cities are located near major water ways.


Now making water ways may get a lot easier with mage around...

[Man_Over_Game]

I am writing in further support of how cost efficient it is to move large amounts of goods over water.

Spells expire (tenser's lasts an hour) and slots run out and require extremely expensive investment in the caster.

Mules tire and need constant maintenance by experts.

There is a reason most pre-modern large cities are located near major water ways.


Now making water ways may get a lot easier with mage around...

Tenser's disk is a ritual.

[blackjack50]

This is where...with the magic that exists in DND...that you get into the VERY abstract idea of a “post scarcity” world. Theoretically? With a population control mechanic in place? Magic could create a world where citizens did not need to work. They COULD if they so chose.

Hm. Could be a hook for an evil or benevolent or “greater good” character? Maybe he could be a titanic figure? Large? Purple? Golden armor? Maybe with a special.....glove....wait?

[blackjack50]

I am writing in further support of how cost efficient it is to move large amounts of goods over water.

Spells expire (tenser's lasts an hour) and slots run out and require extremely expensive investment in the caster.

Mules tire and need constant maintenance by experts.

There is a reason most pre-modern large cities are located near major water ways.


Now making water ways may get a lot easier with mage around...

Intracoastal Waterway :)

[Makorel]

In my setting most deliveries are done by an organization of large barbarian women. They run, jump and swing across terrain carrying heavy loads and doing Tarzan yells and will get you your parcel of rare goods in a matter of days no matter where you are if you've paid for their premium membership services. This group has gained the ire of other caravans and delivery companies for offering more convenient services at cheaper prices and many have gone out of business from being unable to compete. The strength and resilience of these delivery women is considered inhuman by most, and some believe their organization sacrifices mortal souls to some dark god or eldritch being for these powers.

[RulesJD]

Then every PTC you've ever seen doesn't adhere to actual rules of the spell. Permanent circle is a destination, but you still need the spell to travel there.

You're arguing with WotC then. Because that's how they work in both HotDQ, ROT and SKT. I'm gonna go with how WotC interprets it.

Also, Demiplane breaks quite a bit, albeit requiring higher level casters. That said, Just two of them can potentially create a 'bridge' between any two points in space for at least an hour/day. Only medium size, but you can fit a lot of material through that hour.

[Man_Over_Game]

You're arguing with WotC then. Because that's how they work in both HotDQ, ROT and SKT. I'm gonna go with how WotC interprets it.

Also, Demiplane breaks quite a bit, albeit requiring higher level casters. That said, Just two of them can potentially create a 'bridge' between any two points in space for at least an hour/day. Only medium size, but you can fit a lot of material through that hour.

I think what it more is that WotC is willing to break their own stuff, because their modules are designed around AL, and AL wouldn't be fun if you had to pay a Wizard for a level 5 slot to teleport regularly or require you to be one yourself.

[Kane0]

I'm going to pick an arbitrary spell and magic item level a tycoon might have access to. Let's say 3rd level spells and common/uncommon items.

Commercially useful spells:
Druidcraft
Friends
Guidance
Mending
Mold Earth
Prestidigitation
Shape Water
Thaumaturgy

Alarm
Animal Friendship
Ceremony
Charm Person
Comprehend Languages
Create/Destroy Water
Cure Wounds
Detect Poison/Disease
Feather Fall
Find Familiar
Goodberry
Identify
Illusory Script
Purify Food/Drink
Speak with Animals
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant

Animal Messenger
Arcane Lock
Augury
Continual Flame
Detect Thoughts
Enhance Ability
Enlarge/Reduce
Find Steed
Gentle Repose
Knock
Locate Plant/Animal
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Skywrite
Spider Climb
Suggestion

Clairvoyance
Create Food/Water
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Phantom Steed
Plant Growth
Sending
Speak with Dead
Speak with Plants
Tongues
Water Breathing
Water Walk

And pretty much all common/uncommon magic items really, either for use in your enterprises or as trade items.

If you're specifically looking at the things that alter hauling trade goods, things like Floating disk mean less need for pack animals and create water/goodberry cuts down on space and weight needed for rations on journeys. Other spells would directly impact other parts of the process like communication (either over distance with animal messenger/sending/skywrite or face to face with comprehend languages/charm/detect thoughts). Feather fall, spider climb, water walk and more open up avenues of travel previously impossible and other spells like alarm, arcane lock, enlarge/reduce and locate object drastically increase security. Throw in a bit of divination magic like Augury to help plan things out a bit better and you're looking at a substantially more efficient transport process that's faster, cheaper and safer.

[Chronos]

JackPhoenix, a permanent teleportation circle is still a teleportation circle. When it's created, it's tied to some other teleportation circle, and when you step into it, you're bamfed to that other circle. All that changes when it becomes permanent is that it's now a valid destination, too.

You can change the destination by re-casting it, but if you're happy with where it's already going, no further casting is necessary. In practice, you'd probably end up with rings of cities, where circle A goes to circle B, B goes to C, C goes to D, D goes to E, and E goes back to A. Larger or more important cities might be part of multiple rings, to allow easy travel to all of them, and a pair of very important cities might have direct, no-stopovers circles going straight from one to the other and back.

As for security, you obviously don't put the circle inside a place that needs to be secure. You'd put it outside the main walls of the city (the same walls that any other sort of invader would need to get through). And you'd probably build some additional minor fortifications around it, because it'll naturally be a focal point of trade, and you don't want people ambushing your merchants, nor merchants trying to skip out on their customs fees. Which, of course, there would be: Anytime anyone arrives via your circle, or wants to use it to move onwards, they need to pay the city (or whatever cartel or noble house or whatever set it up): Less than it'd cost to ship goods via ship, of course, but still enough to ensure a steady profit.

[Kane0]

As for security, you obviously don't put the circle inside a place that needs to be secure. You'd put it outside the main walls of the city (the same walls that any other sort of invader would need to get through).

People would build up around them though, like train stations.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Here's how I handle it in my setting, which has 4 nations[1], none of which are really coastal and are pretty far apart.

Magical Trade
There are a set of ancient gates (Stargates, basically, except magic and can be the destination for TC casts and can target PTCs if the sigils are known). They're immobile[2] and impossible to replicate currently, but can be used freely. Two of the nations have two each (although one of those gates is really in neutral territory), the other two nations don't have any. A few others are scattered around the world, but some are inoperative. These can be set to refuse unauthenticated access attempts. The other two nations have PTCs set up, but without a caster they're receive-only.

There are maybe 2 dozen people in the entire main area that are even theoretically capable of casting teleport circle, and they are either part of, or have signed deals with, the international organization that keeps the peace between the nations. This UN-like body (except with teeth) owns the gates and guarantees their security and neutrality. They are funded by charging exorbitant fees for gate access. They charge $$$ per minute of gate activity and require that anyone transiting be vetted and bonded within an inch of their lives.

This means that gate traffic goes through a group of specialized transit firms that aggregate and warehouse goods until they have a whole shipment and use their own people for carriage. They charge a % of the value of the goods transported on a sliding scale based on bulk.

Normal Trade
At the lower end, there are cantrip-like spells (chants, they're called) that the drovers and caravan people use. As long as they're chanting, the animals move more easily and bugs are kept away, etc. Other chants help preserve food. So most of the trade (both between nations and within a nation) is totally "normal", except there's low-level magic involved. The biggest nation is the most adept at this, because their culture demands specialization even at the village level. So lots of stuff moves further than one might think.

[1] There are many more, but these are the ones in the main area that are active at this time. They're only part of a unified body because some darn adventurers went out and twisted arms. Those adventurers (now NPCs) are the ones behind the UN-like Federated Nations Council that owns the gates) and are some of the more powerful individuals (and are friends with the rest of the powerful people).
[2] You can move them a few hundred yards before you need to re-calibrate...and no one living knows how to re-calibrate the gates. The gates were built in a previous age, and changes since then have made them functionally impossible to replicate (without sacrificing whole nations worth of people...)

[Lunali]

You're arguing with WotC then. Because that's how they work in both HotDQ, ROT and SKT. I'm gonna go with how WotC interprets it.

Also, Demiplane breaks quite a bit, albeit requiring higher level casters. That said, Just two of them can potentially create a 'bridge' between any two points in space for at least an hour/day. Only medium size, but you can fit a lot of material through that hour.

Sometimes they use it as you suggest, with circles being connected to other places, sometimes they use it as someone needing to cast the spell. The only example I can find in SKT is one where there are people on standby to cast the spell for you.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Chronos, that's not how Teleport Circle works. A permanent circle isn't permanently active. It's merely a valid destination for a casting of the spell itself. And it can be targeted from anywhere, just like any other circle. You never need a permanent circle as a starting point, only as a destination. You can come from anywhere, anytime. Which poses some issues with trade...what if multiple people try to access the same one at the same time?

[Chronos]

It's active for its duration, which is permanent.

And yeah, you don't need a permanent circle at your starting point, but it does make it easier, since you don't have to worry about the annoyingly short duration.

Presumably, if too many people try to arrive at the same circle at once, so there's not enough room for them, they'll be shunted to the nearest open space and take some force damage in the process, since that's how 5e treats most other telefrags.

[Great Dragon]

@MoG:
Umm…
Say 72 "classes", so 1 in (about) 300,000 for an Arch of all Class/Subclasses?


This is where...with the magic that exists in DND...that you get into the VERY abstract idea of a “post scarcity” world. Theoretically? With a population control mechanic in place? Magic could create a world where citizens did not need to work. They COULD if they so chose.

The "Utopia" effect? Possible, but unlikely.

Well, I believe it's actually just as much of a problem in a "realistic" High Magic Fantasy World as it is in our "modern" High Tech World.

Like (IiRC) in the 1950s the "popular" belief was that Modern Medicine would be able to cure nearly everyone.
But even over 60 years later, Health Care is a mess.

Today people worry about losing jobs to machines. But, having machines only meant that some jobs do not require people, but still needed supervisors and (programmers) mechanics.

The point there was: tech didn't eliminate the demand for workers, just changed what skills were needed to get work.

I think Magic would similar.
Maybe there wouldn't be any Standard Humans, since the need for the extra feat (Magic Initiate) is needed more.

But, even the basic (V-Human) Fighter would still be needed to defend the City Gates, but might take Magic Initiate (Wizard) with Message and an energy damage Cantrip (Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, or Thunderclap) and Sleep. Plus most likely equipped with an Item of See Invisibility.

Non-classed priests might have MI (Cleric) for Spare the Dying, Sacred Flame cantrips and Cure Wounds.

Where even people passing by, can most times lend some kind of magical aid.

Not sure on the Odds of there being some Ward that at least detects - if not reveals/blocks - shapechangers and/or Undead.
That isn't Forbiddance. (Only major cities might be able to afford getting and maintaining)

As pointed out: only major Cities would have Permanent Teleportation Circles and would be located in mostly remote locations, and having their own defenses and protections.

Cities of other Races wouldn't have guards of less than 4th level in a Class at the Gate.
True "Zero level" NPCs wouldn't deal with any kind of hazardous activity. Although in major cities, large enough armed mobs can still be dangerous.

Also, outlying Towns would have a higher chance for Classed People, because there is a higher need for them, since most "magical defenses" are beyond their budget.

So, while goods can be Teleported, I agree that for bulk, conventional "mundane" means of transportation would be more cost effective.

Now, I'm by no means any kind of expert on these kind of things. Someone far better at it could most likely give a breakdown of cost comparison.

But, it is a nice theory-crafting project.
Am I mistaken?

Just in case you want to skip my ramblings.

[jjordan]

I'm very interested to see how this plays out. To throw a little fuel on the fire: Teleportation Circle has to connect to another teleportation circle. So how did the first teleportation circle get created?

But, moving back to the original question.

If you have to cast the teleportation circle spell then it's only going to open for six seconds. It has a ten foot diameter (which isn't all that wide). So let's say we can get 30 guys through in 6 seconds and they can carry their body weight in goods. So about 180lbs each. That works out to 5,400lbs or 2.7 tons. That's 1/10th what a Viking trade ship can carry and 1/45th of what The Bremen (a late medieval cog) could carry. Given the expense involved in creating and casting the spell (and the potential danger it represents) I don't think these would be used for significant amounts of trade.

If you set up a system to move a lot more cargo through (let's say ten times as much) we still aren't looking at a huge dent in the volume of trade. The wizards are far more likely to use lower level spells to communicate over large distances and control commodities trading and banking. As well as having access to high level communications.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's active for its duration, which is permanent.


It says no such thing. It merely says that a permanent circle can be used as a target. That's all you get, not a fixed-destination portal that's always open.

[Chronos]

But a permanent circle is also still a Teleportation Circle, and thus still does all of the things in the previous portion of the description.

[Zobo]

Something I note about people calculating the feasibility of commercial goods teleportation based on the population figures that would produce the wizards.

Do you really think the wizard would be
a) willing to come when the business wants and not be busy with their own stuff?
b) not charge exorbitant casting fees? Ask for 10k gold for a spell, and you will be asked rarely (bonus) and get a lot of gold when you have a person in desperate need. (bonus)
c) not have enemies who would pay the fee and know after the transportation their foe has used their most powerful magic spell AND is at a known location at the time of the opponent's choosing... and out of teleport spells to escape.

Those level 11 wizards aren't likely to be of a subservient mentality, are highly intelligent and likely not very people-oriented. Exceptions are rare.

[JackPhoenix]

It's active for its duration, which is permanent.

And yeah, you don't need a permanent circle at your starting point, but it does make it easier, since you don't have to worry about the annoyingly short duration.

Presumably, if too many people try to arrive at the same circle at once, so there's not enough room for them, they'll be shunted to the nearest open space and take some force damage in the process, since that's how 5e treats most other telefrags.

It's not. The duration is 1 round. The spell makes difference between the portal and the circle, and casting the spell for a year makes permanent teleportation circle, it does not say "the portal will last until dispeled" like similar spells. You can even cast the TC without opening the portal at all if you just want to create the permanent circle.


I'm very interested to see how this plays out. To throw a little fuel on the fire: Teleportation Circle has to connect to another teleportation circle. So how did the first teleportation circle get created?

Someone kept casting the spell for a year to create the first permanent circle.

[jjordan]

Someone kept casting the spell for a year to create the first permanent circle.
Which connected to what? The spell says you link your circle to a permanent teleportation circle. So without a permanent circle to connect to you can't cast the spell for the year it takes to create the permanent circle. I'm not terribly worked up about this, just pointing out another fuzzy point regarding this spell.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Which connected to what? The spell says you link your circle to a permanent teleportation circle. So without a permanent circle to connect to you can't cast the spell for the year it takes to create the permanent circle. I'm not terribly worked up about this, just pointing out another fuzzy point regarding this spell.

You can cast the spell just fine without a destination. It's just not going to go anywhere. Things in separate paragraphs are often designed to be separate parts of the spell--the spell has two modes:
Portal mode: the first paragraph explains how to use it for its primary purpose (going to permanent destination created by the second mode).
Destination Creation mode: the second paragraph explains how to use it to create a destination. This does not open a portal.

[RulesJD]

I think what it more is that WotC is willing to break their own stuff, because their modules are designed around AL, and AL wouldn't be fun if you had to pay a Wizard for a level 5 slot to teleport regularly or require you to be one yourself.

I'd agree with you there, except for the fact that they use PTCs that way in HotDQ, which definitely wasn't written with AL in mind (AL was barely even a thing then). You use them like that to get to the Hunting Lodge, then from there outwards. No one casts the spell, you just have to know the passcode and poof, away you go.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd agree with you there, except for the fact that they use PTCs that way in HotDQ, which definitely wasn't written with AL in mind (AL was barely even a thing then). You use them like that to get to the Hunting Lodge, then from there outwards. No one casts the spell, you just have to know the passcode and poof, away you go.

HotDQ was also the first adventure, which was written before the rules were finalized. Maybe it worked that way then, but then got fixed for publication? Especially since the other ones don't work that way.

[Man_Over_Game]

HotDQ was also the first adventure, which was written before the rules were finalized. Maybe it worked that way then, but then got fixed for publication? Especially since the other ones don't work that way.

If I remember correctly, HotDQ wasn't written by WotC, either. Was written by a 3rd party company that Wizards allowed, probably because they had their hands full with setting AL and the playtesting up.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If I remember correctly, HotDQ wasn't written by WotC, either. Was written by a 3rd party company that Wizards allowed, probably because they had their hands full with setting AL and the playtesting up.

Yeah. Kobold Press. And a lot of their stuff shows similar oddities.

[KorvinStarmast]

Which poses some issues with trade...what if multiple people try to access the same one at the same time? We are back to breakage, like with the historical seaborne trade mentioned up thread. :smallbiggrin:

[jjordan]

We are back to breakage, like with the historical seaborne trade mentioned up thread. :smallbiggrin:Probably something more like train culture with precision time-keeping becoming very important and highly organized schedules (with the organizations that can create them which is, in many ways, an even bigger societal shift).


You can cast the spell just fine without a destination. It's just not going to go anywhere. Things in separate paragraphs are often designed to be separate parts of the spell--the spell has two modes:
Portal mode: the first paragraph explains how to use it for its primary purpose (going to permanent destination created by the second mode).
Destination Creation mode: the second paragraph explains how to use it to create a destination. This does not open a portal.
That interpretation is perfectly fine with me, though it feels a little threadbare (which is the fault of the rule as written, not your interpretation of it). The writing for this rule could really use another look. It seems silly to me that you need to cast the spell every day for a year to create the permanent portal when you could simply fall back on a crafting build to create this. It seems silly that it has to connect to a permanent portal when the only way to create a permanent portal is to cast the spell, which must connect to a permanent portal. Again, I'm just making observations here. If I ever have to deal with this spell I'll deal with it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That interpretation is perfectly fine with me, though it feels a little threadbare (which is the fault of the rule as written, not your interpretation of it). The writing for this rule could really use another look. It seems silly to me that you need to cast the spell every day for a year to create the permanent portal when you could simply fall back on a crafting build to create this. It seems silly that it has to connect to a permanent portal when the only way to create a permanent portal is to cast the spell, which must connect to a permanent portal. Again, I'm just making observations here. If I ever have to deal with this spell I'll deal with it.

My interpretation says that you don't need to connect to another portal to cast the spell. It won't do anything particular, other than count as a day of casting, but...

And nothing says that's the only way to make one. Merely that it is one way to make them.

[blackjack50]

@MoG:
Umm…
Say 72 "classes", so 1 in (about) 300,000 for an Arch of all Class/Subclasses?



The "Utopia" effect? Possible, but unlikely.

Well, I believe it's actually just as much of a problem in a "realistic" High Magic Fantasy World as it is in our "modern" High Tech World.

Like (IiRC) in the 1950s the "popular" belief was that Modern Medicine would be able to cure nearly everyone.
But even over 60 years later, Health Care is a mess.

Today people worry about losing jobs to machines. But, having machines only meant that some jobs do not require people, but still needed supervisors and (programmers) mechanics.

The point there was: tech didn't eliminate the demand for workers, just changed what skills were needed to get work.

I think Magic would similar.
Maybe there wouldn't be any Standard Humans, since the need for the extra feat (Magic Initiate) is needed more.

But, even the basic (V-Human) Fighter would still be needed to defend the City Gates, but might take Magic Initiate (Wizard) with Message and an energy damage Cantrip (Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, or Thunderclap) and Sleep. Plus most likely equipped with an Item of See Invisibility.

Non-classed priests might have MI (Cleric) for Spare the Dying, Sacred Flame cantrips and Cure Wounds.

Where even people passing by, can most times lend some kind of magical aid.

Not sure on the Odds of there being some Ward that at least detects - if not reveals/blocks - shapechangers and/or Undead.
That isn't Forbiddance. (Only major cities might be able to afford getting and maintaining)

As pointed out: only major Cities would have Permanent Teleportation Circles and would be located in mostly remote locations, and having their own defenses and protections.

Cities of other Races wouldn't have guards of less than 4th level in a Class at the Gate.
True "Zero level" NPCs wouldn't deal with any kind of hazardous activity. Although in major cities, large enough armed mobs can still be dangerous.

Also, outlying Towns would have a higher chance for Classed People, because there is a higher need for them, since most "magical defenses" are beyond their budget.

So, while goods can be Teleported, I agree that for bulk, conventional "mundane" means of transportation would be more cost effective.

Now, I'm by no means any kind of expert on these kind of things. Someone far better at it could most likely give a breakdown of cost comparison.

But, it is a nice theory-crafting project.
Am I mistaken?

Just in case you want to skip my ramblings.

I didn’t :)

Thank you. I think that is the direction I’m taking it. Dealing with Bulk transport via a middle tier efficient system. Or rather...attempting to create or foster a fast system of goods transportation that is efficient. Then have his village become relevant in the traffic.

[darknite]

As has always been the way, things will typically be done as cheaply as possible. In eras where access to reasonable and sizable credit lines were nigh impossible, even operations that would enable cheaper costs over time would be foregone if their startup costs were too high.

So yeah, an iron golem could plow and thresh the fields of a barony 24/7 and achieve remarkable savings of time and effort over the hundreds of years of its' operation. But the initial cost would be prohibitive for a modest increase in the short term.

[Man_Over_Game]

As has always been the way, things will typically be done as cheaply as possible. In eras where access to reasonable and sizable credit lines were nigh impossible, even operations that would enable cheaper costs over time would be foregone if their startup costs were too high.

So yeah, an iron golem could plow and thresh the fields of a barony 24/7 and achieve remarkable savings of time and effort over the hundreds of years of its' operation. But the initial cost would be prohibitive for a modest increase in the short term.

Kinda like how things are now. We could solve a lot of our energy problems with nuclear or solar energy. But we don't, for all the same reasons.

[JackPhoenix]

As has always been the way, things will typically be done as cheaply as possible. In eras where access to reasonable and sizable credit lines were nigh impossible, even operations that would enable cheaper costs over time would be foregone if their startup costs were too high.

So yeah, an iron golem could plow and thresh the fields of a barony 24/7 and achieve remarkable savings of time and effort over the hundreds of years of its' operation. But the initial cost would be prohibitive for a modest increase in the short term.

"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”
-Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms.