Fixing the Underpowered Class #2: the Monk

[yarrowdeathbloo]

This is part 2 in my series of posts where I attempt to fix the under powered Classes in 3.5e the last one was the fighter (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590686-Fixing-the-Underpowered-Class-1-1-the-Fighter)

Up next we have the Monk and I actually think this one will be the simplest fix out of all the underpowered classes in the system

The Problems
-Multi ability dependent
- 4 Levels with very little upsides
-Inability to multi-class
-bogged down by restrictions

Tweaks
Alignment: Alignment restriction for the monk class is instead relaxed to any non chaotic (or non lawful if using the chaos monk)

Ex monks: The only time a monk gives up the ability to take monk class levels is if their alignment changes to chaotic(or lawful if using the chaos monk).

Class skills
The monk instead has class skills equal to 6+int modifier

Still mind: Still mind now applies to all mind affecting effects.

Monk damage die: the monk’s unarmed damage die can be used in place of the normal damage dice for any monk weapon. Also the monk’s unarmed damage die increases in damage 1 level sooner each increase.

Ki Strike: Ki strike now also allows you to use your wisdom modifier in place of your strength modifier when making unarmed attacks.

Deftness:Starting at 3rd level you may add your ac bonus to balance, climb, jump, and tumble checks.

Ac Bonus- Starting at 4th level and every 4th level after is increased by 1.

Damage resistance: Starting at 5th level the monk gains DR 3/magic this is increased to DR 5/magic at level 10 and to DR 7/ magic at level 15

Deftness of foot(ex): starting at 7th level your movement is not penalized for moving over difficult terrain.

Sacred Fist (ex): starting at 8th level the monk’s unarmed attacks and attacks made with monk weapons are treated as though they were made with a silver weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Abundant step: abundant step can now be used a number of times per day equal to the monk’s ac bonus.

Diamond Soul: The monk may choose to let a spell ignore their magic resistance as an immediate action. Also the monk now gains immunity from paralysis effects.

Iron Fist (ex): Starting at 14th level the monk’s unarmed attacks and attacks made with monk weapons are treated as though they were made with a Cold iron weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Vertical Step (Su): starting at 14th level a monk can cast spider climb on themselves at will with caster level equal ½ their monk level.

Clarity (ex): starting at 18th level the monk gains blind sight out to 15ft.

Perfect self: the damage reduction granted by perfect self can only be overcome by weapons that are both Magic and chaotic(or lawful if using chaos monk). Also the Monk gains immunity to death effects and now never ages and stays in the same age category until they die.

[nonsi]

.

Those are all quite decent actually.

Here are a few more ideas to consider adding to the Monk:
- Superior athletics and acrobatics
- Effortlessly traversing rough terrain
- Overcoming a wide variety of DR
- Superior battlefield mobility
- Parry/deflect
- Self-Enhancement

[yarrowdeathbloo]

.

Those are all quite decent actually.

Here are a few more ideas to consider adding to the Monk:
- Superior athletics and acrobatics
- Effortlessly traversing rough terrain
- Overcoming a wide variety of DR
- Superior battlefield mobility
- Parry/deflect
- Self-Enhancement

Those are actually some pretty good ideas I'm probably gonna steal a few of them. Also is the HP gain a little bit too much of an over correction for the multi-ability-dependence?

[Karl Aegis]

You fix multi-attribute dependent by... giving them more health?? What is that supposed to do?

[yarrowdeathbloo]

You fix multi-attribute dependent by... giving them more health?? What is that supposed to do?

Let's them work around putting points into CON so theoretically they have more points to go elsewhere

[Lans]

Let's them work around putting points into CON so theoretically they have more points to go elsewhere

You could follow suit on the increase in skills and give them a bigger hit die, AC bonus, BA, and damage. Add in some bonuses to skills and your set.

Edit-I see you let them add Wis to attack instead of strength, so the BA increase isn't necessary, but an increase in damage would still be good, whether an increase in damage die at 1st or letting them enchant there body similarly to aSoulknife does its mindbblade

[Maat Mons]

Let me dig out my last monk fix brainstorming results.


LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialImproved DamageManeuversStances
1st 1022Improved unarmed strike, ki armor, snap kick1d6 ????
2nd 2033AC bonus, evasion1d6 ????
3rd 3133Movement ability, purity of body1d6 ????
4th 4144Ki strike1d8 ????
5th 5144+wis to fort saves?1d8 ????
6th 6255Bonus feat1d8 ????
7th 7255Movement ability1d8 ????
8th 8266Ki strike1d10 ????
9th 9366Diamond body, improved evasion1d10 ????
10th 10377Bonus feat1d10 ????
11th 11377Double snap kick, movement ability1d10 ????
12th 12488Ki strike2d6 ????
13th 13488+wis to damage?2d6 ????
14th 14499Bonus feat2d6 ????
15th 15599Movement ability2d6 ????
16th 1651010Ki strike2d8 ????
17th 1751010filler?2d8 ????
18th 1861111Bonus feat2d8 ????
19th 1961111Movement ability2d8 ????
20th 2061212Ki strike, capstone?2d10 ????


Improved Damage

use listed value in place of normal base damage for unarmed strike/special monk weapons (if better)
these values are for medium-sized monk

-

Improved Unarmed Strike

gain improved unarmed strike as bonus feat
can also treat unarmed strike as both natural weapon and manufactured weapon

-

Ki Armor

gain armor bonus to AC = 4 + 1/3 monk level

-

Snap Kick

treated as having snap kick when using only unarmed strike/special monk weapons
don't need to meet prerequisites

-

AC Bonus

add wis to ac when wearing light/no armor

-

Movement Ability

gain one ability from list at each indicated level

Acrobatic Skill Mastery
Fast movement
Slow Fall
Wall run
Water Step

-

Ki Strike

at each indicated level, chose one from list

Adamantine: unarmed strike/monk weapons overcome DR/adamantine
Cold Iron: unarmed strike/monk weapons overcome DR/cold iron
Evil: unarmed strike/monk weapons overcome DR/evil (must be evil)
Good: unarmed strike/monk weapons overcome DR/good (must be good)
Lawful: unarmed strike/monk weapons overcome DR/lawful
Magic: unarmed strike/monk weapons gain enhancement bonus to attack/damage = 1/4 monk level
Silver: unarmed strike/monk weapons overcome DR/silver

-

Bonus Feat

from list, don't need to meet prerequisite

Combat Reflexes
Improved Disarm
Improved Grapple
Improved Initiative
Improved Trip
Intuitive Attack
Versatile Unarmed Strike
Zen Archery

-

Double Snap Kick

when using snap kick, 2 extra attacks instead of just 1

So, problems I was trying to address:

Flurry of blows requires you to stand still to use it, which doesn't feel right for wuxia battles. So its extra attacks are based on Snap Kick instead.

For AC, monks are either reliant on allied spellcasters (Mage Armor) or items (Bracers of Armor). So I gave them a buult-in effect to replicate those two things, and justified it as coming from ki.

For as much as the text talks about special monk weapons, no one uses them after the first few levels because you unarmed strike is just better. So I apply the damage progression to both unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

The way I handled wisdom to attack was to allow minks to select Intuitive Attack as a bonus feat without meeting the prerequisits. (Becuase being exalted is a pain, and non goog monks need love too.)

[yarrowdeathbloo]

You could follow suit on the increase in skills and give them a bigger hit die, AC bonus, BA, and damage. Add in some bonuses to skills and your set.

Edit-I see you let them add Wis to attack instead of strength, so the BA increase isn't necessary, but an increase in damage would still be good, whether an increase in damage die at 1st or letting them enchant there body similarly to aSoulknife does its mindbblade

That's actually a pretty good a idea I'll be adding it.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

Change log
-damage increase now applies to monk weapons
-ac bonus comes online 1 level sooner and is increased by 1, 1 level earlier.
-added Grace ability
-added sacred fist ability
-added weightless fist ability
-Light formatting

[nonsi]

Change log
-damage increase now applies to monk weapons
-ac bonus comes online 1 level sooner and is increased by 1, 1 level earlier.
-added Grace ability
-added sacred fist ability
-added weightless fist ability
-Light formatting

You'll probably not take it as it is, but you're welcome to steal whatever you find useful from my Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777454&postcount=21), or modify things to your heart's content.

[Segev]

Given that the widely-published thing is going to be better known than any homebrew, I recommend starting by examining PF's Monk and Unchained Monk. See if this addresses issues you have, and start your tweaks from there unless it veers so far from what you want in a monk that it's not really useful. It probably still is underpowered, but likely has already got solutions that you can grow things off of.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

Given that the widely-published thing is going to be better known than any homebrew, I recommend starting by examining PF's Monk and Unchained Monk. See if this addresses issues you have, and start your tweaks from there unless it veers so far from what you want in a monk that it's not really useful. It probably still is underpowered, but likely has already got solutions that you can grow things off of.

I mean I kinda like where I have this balance wise so far ( might need one or two tweaks but more ore less I'm happy with it) and also I eventually wanna design games at some point and I think this is good practice

[yarrowdeathbloo]

You'll probably not take it as it is, but you're welcome to steal whatever you find useful from my Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777454&postcount=21), or modify things to your heart's content.

Probably gonna steal the never aging thing

[Maat Mons]

A 1st-level monk has AC = 10 + Dex + Wis. A 1st-level rogue in a chain shirt has AC 14 + Dex. The only way the monk can even tie the rogue for AC is if he has 18 Wisdom. And even then, he has to manage that while still having just as much Dex as the rogue.

I firmly believe the +4 bonus to AC that monks get at 20th level should come at 1st level. Other classes get +4 AC at 1st level for free by virtue of not being forbidden to wear a chain shirt. Do that, and then Wis to AC can be a feature instead of a means of mitigating a class-imposed weakness.



A 1st level monk deals 2d6 damage per round (from 2 unarmed strikes that deal 1d6 each). A 1st-level anyone-with-martial-weapon-proficiency also deals 2d6 damage per round (from one attack with a greatsword that deals 2d6 damage). And, for the privilege of dealing the same base damage dice as everyone else, the monk is forced to take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, and spend a full-round action (instead of the standard action other people are spending).



You'll notice that monks' offensive and defensive capabilities are both less than other classes at 1st level. You'll also notice that monks only arrive at these inferior numbers by utilizing various class "features." Being worse than normal shouldn't be construed as a "feature."



Mithril doesn't overcome any damage reduction that I'm aware of. Why not an ability to overcome DR/cold iron?

I don't see why Ki Strike should come in a fixed order. Why not let individual monks choose a weapon material each time the ability is gained?



+5 to balance, climb, jump, and tumble at 20th level is pretty slight. Especially when you consider that anyone with a fly speed effectively has +infinity on the first three skills.



You're "changing" Diamond Soul so that it can be suppressed. But all spell resistance can already be suppressed as a full-round action. Are you meaning to change the action used to suppress it?


Adding Spider Climb at 14th level raises some questions. Questions like "Now what's the point of the climb bonuses that keep accruing?" and "Is a 14th-level character not going to have access to flight in some form anyway?"

[yarrowdeathbloo]

A 1st-level monk has AC = 10 + Dex + Wis. A 1st-level rogue in a chain shirt has AC 14 + Dex. The only way the monk can even tie the rogue for AC is if he has 18 Wisdom. And even then, he has to manage that while still having just as much Dex as the rogue.

I firmly believe the +4 bonus to AC that monks get at 20th level should come at 1st level. Other classes get +4 AC at 1st level for free by virtue of not being forbidden to wear a chain shirt. Do that, and then Wis to AC can be a feature instead of a means of mitigating a class-imposed weakness.



A 1st level monk deals 2d6 damage per round (from 2 unarmed strikes that deal 1d6 each). A 1st-level anyone-with-martial-weapon-proficiency also deals 2d6 damage per round (from one attack with a greatsword that deals 2d6 damage). And, for the privilege of dealing the same base damage dice as everyone else, the monk is forced to take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, and spend a full-round action (instead of the standard action other people are spending).



You'll notice that monks' offensive and defensive capabilities are both less than other classes at 1st level. You'll also notice that monks only arrive at these inferior numbers by utilizing various class "features." Being worse than normal shouldn't be construed as a "feature."


you also seem to be forgetting that the monk is also the least vulnerable to spell effects at the first few levels of the game, I mean I could make a similar argument about the rogue needing to have a team member flanking for them before they can get the sneak attack damage dice to get their full damage output but that's not really an issue for the rogue since the sneak attack dice scale pretty generously and they have much better thing going for them likewise I think with the changes I made the monks unarmed damage dice gets to scale generously and the monk get some pretty potent defensive buffs later on as well so it should make up for it. Balance doesn't mean everyone is exactly the same that would be boring.



Mithril doesn't overcome any damage reduction that I'm aware of. Why not an ability to overcome DR/cold iron?

I don't see why Ki Strike should come in a fixed order. Why not let individual monks choose a weapon material each time the ability is gained?

well not core as it seems so I'll probably swap it out cold iron, and because adamantine is the most common so then the choice wouldn't really be there if you could pick because there would only be really one option you'd wanna go for.




+5 to balance, climb, jump, and tumble at 20th level is pretty slight. Especially when you consider that anyone with a fly speed effectively has +infinity on the first three skills.

Unless I worded it wrong it should be 5+ wis modifier since the monk gains their wisdom modifier to their ac bonus by default, also anyone with a fly speed is probably a mage and does need to spend a decent amount of their resources to get that so at early levels it should be fair.




You're "changing" Diamond Soul so that it can be suppressed. But all spell resistance can already be suppressed as a full-round action. Are you meaning to change the action used to suppress it?


Adding Spider Climb at 14th level raises some questions. Questions like "Now what's the point of the climb bonuses that keep accruing?" and "Is a 14th-level character not going to have access to flight in some form anyway?"

I always forget about that but yeah I was intending it to be a immediate action so you can get healed without getting nailed by a fireball in the same round. As for free climb because from personal experience martial players prefer other utility items besides boots of levitating and flying broom sticks, like they're fun but this does remove a lot of the need for them as well since last I checked spider climb gives you a climb speed, and before then getting bonuses to climb helps out with mobility and the bonuses will still apply in an anti magic field.

[Maat Mons]

The rogue does suffer the same problems as the monk, but not in the way you describe. A rogue is forced to go two-weapon fighting, which puts him in the same boat of needing to use a full-round action and take a -2 penalty to get the damage that 2-handed weapons get for free. But at least once he does that his sneak attack is a pure improvement over the baseline, no class feature use of his weapon style.

Now, I'm aware that the FAQ says that monks are allowed to two-weapon fight in spite of the "no off-hand attacks" clause in their unarmed strike description. But many groups rule that the FAQ can only clarify rules text, not alter it, and so won't let that FAQ entry override the rules in the monk class.

The issue here, really, is that two-handed fighting is superior to the other combat styles. I didn't really want to get into the whole thing, since this thread is about monk, and I only wanted to talk about the parts of the issue that directly pertain to the class.

Now, it seems to be the intention that unarmed combat be inferior to all other combat styles for everyone except monks. I don't really agree with that design philosophy, but if you're willing to embrace it, it means you don't need to do an overhaul of the entire unarmed combat style, just the parts within the monk class. (TWF and sword-and-board still should be addressed by any redesign project.)




I never said all classes need to be the same. I said they should be balanced against each other at all level. So if something is under-performing at level 1, making level 20 better doesn't change the fact that there's still a problem at level 1.

And, anyway, making the baseline of each weapon style (two-handed, two-weapon, sword-and-board, unarmed, and einhander) comparable doesn't mean every character winds up being the same. They can all still have vastly different methods of improving later. It just means that you don't arbitrarily force some types of characters to spend several levels waiting until they become good.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

The rogue does suffer the same problems as the monk, but not in the way you describe. A rogue is forced to go two-weapon fighting, which puts him in the same boat of needing to use a full-round action and take a -2 penalty to get the damage that 2-handed weapons get for free. But at least once he does that his sneak attack is a pure improvement over the baseline, no class feature use of his weapon style.

I never said all classes need to be the same. I said they should be balanced against each other at all level. So if something is under-performing at level 1, making level 20 better doesn't change the fact that there's still a problem at level 1.

And, anyway, making the baseline of each weapon style (two-handed, two-weapon, sword-and-board, unarmed, and einhander) comparable doesn't mean every character winds up being the same. They can all still have vastly different methods of improving later. It just means that you don't arbitrarily force some types of characters to spend several levels waiting until they become good.

While that would be ideal the flaw with the monk is the only thing keeping the raw amount of DR the monk can ignore as well as the maximum amount of damage the monk can deal in a single turn at max balanced is the fact the monk can't deal a lot of damage and move in the same turn, and if you couple this with the raw amount of defensive buffs and mobility I gave the monk letting the monk move and attack a few extra times would put it at least in the same power level as the psion (and I can't stress the at least enough) where as I'm trying to keep the monk in line with the bard in terms of overall contribution to the party. That being said I am tempted to increase the ac bonus the monk gets at first level by 2, still haven't decided if I want to but I'm think it over and looking through the monster manual to see if it's a good idea.

I'm also considering changing wholeness of body to be fast healing 3 but I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

[King of Nowhere]

I just have to post the monk ovehaul I proposed in an old thread here, because I think it gives the monk a more distinct personality

I'll try to up monk to tier 4

Premise: the flavor of the class is that of a martial artist. This can entail many things, but to me it means a few characteristics that are already partially present in the monk class
- difficult to hit (AC needs a bump)
- tough (better hit dice)
- not as deadly as a sword (damage is fine)
- good at grappling people, throwing them to the ground and stuff (needs a boost)
- good at resisting spells and stuff (it already has nice features, but can get some more help)
- ninja abilities (needs more skill points)

furthermore, the monk is known for being terribly MAD, only viable if you roll and get great stats. I'll try to remove some of that, although not completely)
It also has some nice abilities, that are nonetheless crappy because they have very limited uses or they come up late.

So my proposed fixes to bring monk to tier 4 are

- hit dice: increased to d10
- skill points: increased to 6 per level
- AC: increased to 3 + 1 per three levels.
- wholeness of body: damage healed increases to WIS*level
- flurry of blows: when you use it, you can make two attacks as a standard action. Three at level 11.
- the following class features are gained at earlier levels:
- stunning fist: you declare to use it on a round, and it applies to the first attack that hits [avoids wasting them on misses, but keps the one per round]. Stuning fist also deals extra damage equal to the wisdom modifier, regardless of whether it is successful. Daily uses increased to level+WIS modifier
--- ki strike: adamantine at level 11
--- spell resistance at level 10
--- abundant step: gets it at level 9, gains daily uses equal to his level - 8 or his wisdom modifier, whichever is lower
--- quivering palm: gets it at level 13, gains daily uses equal to his level -12 or his wisdom modifier, whichever is lower
--- immunity to poisons at level 8

In addition, a monk gets the following benefits
- intuitive attack: a monk gets it for free at level 1.
- serenity: starting at level 3, a monk adds his wisdom modifier to all saving throws. Replaces still mind
- body figthing: a monk gains a competence bonus equal to 2+half his level to grapple checks. He gains a competence bonus equal to 1/3 of his level to trip, bull rush, overrun, disarm and other similar manuevers. When disarming, his unarmed attack is considered the same size he is.


With the proposed changes, a monk would hopefully reach tier 4 without overshooting it. It keeps its flavor. It doesn't hit as hard as a fighter, so it does not steal a role. It now has a distinct mechanical benefit to tripping, disarming and grappling, which should be some of its main abilities. Extra skill points let the monk actually take some skills it should have.
Greater base AC, hit dice and saving throws make the monk more survivable without needing crazy stats and/or a crapton of loot. This makes them less reliant on high dexterity and constitution. It is viable to play a purely WIS-based monk, but STR is still important if you want to trip or grapple.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

Most likely to be the final change log.

-weightless fist changed to iron fist