2 Questions about 3.5 (one about Truenamer and one barely about Neutronium Golem)

[gooddragon1]

Why is the Truenamer listed as tier 7 if it's got class features and the tier 6 commoner doesn't?

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The Neutronium Golem (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=tUwLXY-zBJSu0PEP2tWU-AM&q=neutronium+golem&oq=neutroni&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.1.2.0l4j46j0l3.1463.5620..7152...0.0..0.194.116 6.0j8......0....1.......8..41j0i131.FuP2NPEllbA) has a CR over 9000 (9721).

Shouldn't epic characters just ditch everything and start investing in Psion levels? Max out int with great intelligence as the bonus and regular feats as well as every 4 levels to max psicraft for epic manifestation (which you can use without preparing them).

Just imagining the int 3 orc barbarian going over 9000 in intelligence and thinking back on their life decisions...

Also, I guess you'd have to assume an infinite lifespan or something.

... because at that point of an adventuring career, I'm not sure class features, feats, and magic items are going to cut it.

[Jack_Simth]

Why is the Truenamer listed as tier 7 if it's got class features and the tier 6 commoner doesn't?

It's not, although with where it's presented in the original list (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=658.0), it's easy to assume that. Truenamer is the class without a tier, not tier-7. The specific quote is:

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately). Highly optimized (to the point of being able to spam their abilities) a Truenamer would be around Tier 4, but with lower optimization it rapidly drops to Tier 6.


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The Neutronium Golem (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=tUwLXY-zBJSu0PEP2tWU-AM&q=neutronium+golem&oq=neutroni&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.1.2.0l4j46j0l3.1463.5620..7152...0.0..0.194.116 6.0j8......0....1.......8..41j0i131.FuP2NPEllbA) has a CR over 9000 (9721).

Shouldn't epic characters just ditch everything and start investing in Psion levels? Max out int with great intelligence as the bonus and regular feats as well as every 4 levels to max psicraft for epic manifestation (which you can use without preparing them).

Just imagining the int 3 orc barbarian going over 9000 in intelligence and thinking back on their life decisions...

Also, I guess you'd have to assume an infinite lifespan or something.

... because at that point of an adventuring career, I'm not sure class features, feats, and magic items are going to cut it.

Not really. There's more than one way to defeat the silly thing by 20th, and as it's 3rd party material from a much-maligned book that was intended as part of a three-part series which was never finished... it's not expected to show up in games much.

Also: There's not really any good spot to break away from your main path.

A Barbarian-20/Psion-2 is less effective than a Barbarian-22.
A Barbarian-30/Psion-2 is less effective than a Barbarian-32.
A Barbarian-40/Psion-2 is less effective than a Barbarian-42.
... and so on.

A Bard-20/Psion-2 is less effective than a Bard-22.
A Bard-30/Psion-2 is less effective than a Bard-32.
A Bard-40/Psion-2 is less effective than a Bard-42.
... and so on.

A Cleric-20/Psion-2 is less effective than a Cleric-22.
A Cleric-30/Psion-2 is less effective than a Cleric-32.
A Cleric-40/Psion-2 is less effective than a Cleric-42.
... and so on.

[Unavenger]

Why is the Truenamer listed as tier 7 if it's got class features and the tier 6 commoner doesn't?.

JaronK didn't know anything about truenamers so he just shrugged and went "Well IDK it depends".

[noob]

it is significantly better than rogue at umd abuse.

[Psyren]

JaronK didn't know anything about truenamers so he just shrugged and went "Well IDK it depends".

"Optimized T4, unoptimized T6" sounds fine to me. Obviously it gets T2 once you can Gate-spam at the capstone.

[noob]

"Optimized T4, unoptimized T6" sounds fine to me. Obviously it gets T2 once you can Gate-spam at the capstone.

Or the scroll reuse abuse with the item reparation utterance.

[Stevesciguy]

Why is the Truenamer listed as tier 7 if it's got class features and the tier 6 commoner doesn't?

To elaborate on Jack_Simth's JaronK quote about it being broken:

You have to pass a skill check just to use your basic powers, and the DC of that check goes up faster than you can put ranks in it, meaning you need to do some serious boosting to keep up.


The Neutronium Golem (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=tUwLXY-zBJSu0PEP2tWU-AM&q=neutronium+golem&oq=neutroni&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.1.2.0l4j46j0l3.1463.5620..7152...0.0..0.194.116 6.0j8......0....1.......8..41j0i131.FuP2NPEllbA) has a CR over 9000 (9721).

Also, I guess you'd have to assume an infinite lifespan or something.

... because at that point of an adventuring career, I'm not sure class features, feats, and magic items are going to cut it.


Not really. There's more than one way to defeat the silly thing by 20th, and as it's 3rd party material from a much-maligned book that was intended as part of a three-part series which was never finished... it's not expected to show up in games much.

Now, I've got a soft spot for these books just because of how ludicrous they are, so take the following with that in mind:

To be 100% fair, the other books in the series were more bestiaries, so they aren't necessarily required to use that stuff. There was another book they got out, which detailed methods of ascension to divinity and the abilities you get for doing so.

So, gooddragon1, you're right, class features, feats, and magic items won't cut it, because you're meant to more or less be a literal god.(Ignoring the whole 'killable-at-level-20' thing, although as far as I'm aware, you do still need to pull out some rather silly tricks to do that)

[Psyren]

Or the scroll reuse abuse with the item reparation utterance.

I've always looked askance at that trick. Scrolls aren't actually "destroyed" when used, the writing simply vanishes. So it's a bit of a stretch to say Rebuild Item works on them. Similarly, wands don't get "destroyed" either, they become "just sticks."

Rebuild Item seems to be aimed more at sundered magic items than expended consumables.

[ShurikVch]

I've always looked askance at that trick. Scrolls aren't actually "destroyed" when used, the writing simply vanishes. So it's a bit of a stretch to say Rebuild Item works on them. Similarly, wands don't get "destroyed" either, they become "just sticks."

Rebuild Item seems to be aimed more at sundered magic items than expended consumables.The trick in question intended to use with various "scroll variants" - such as Incendiary (Complete Arcane):
The incendiary is consumed in a brilliant colored flash or haze of strangely coiling smoke, completing the spell.Sticks (Dragon #335):
To use, the spellcaster snaps the rune-stick and speaks aloud the proper ritualized phrase.or Jars (Dragon #335):
Upon breaking the jar, the wizard frees the essence of the spell held within, awaiting the words of the caster to give it final Form.

[noob]

skull talismans too(or something like that)?

[Psyren]

The trick in question intended to use with various "scroll variants" - such as Incendiary (Complete Arcane):Sticks (Dragon #335):or Jars (Dragon #335):

That makes more sense - but being variants, those require GM approval anyway, and they can simply not okay special scroll types in a Truenaming game.

[gooddragon1]

That makes more sense - but being variants, those require GM approval anyway, and they can simply not okay special scroll types in a Truenaming game.

Considering how Truenamers have problems, maybe some compromise... but at that point it's probably just better to play a different class. Maybe a Falsenamer?

[Zaq]

Considering how Truenamers have problems, maybe some compromise... but at that point it's probably just better to play a different class. Maybe a Falsenamer?

Eh. Falsenamers are amusing in an E6-esque environment, but they lack staying power overall. (That said, I have a diabolical idea for a 20-level falsenamer build that I'm working on putting in the Builds section of the new and improved guide. Disclaimer: my summer got kind of knocked off kilter by some very urgent and attention-demanding real-world issues and I absolutely can't promise any real progress once school starts again, so it may be some time before the new and improved guide sees the light of day.)

Anyway, TNs are playable, but they definitely do have problems and require work. Still likely to be less frustrating than a martial character who's scaled out of relevance, though, at least as long as you've got enough op-fu to cover the basics.

(The rebuild item trick doesn't work on standard scrolls, but it totally works on skull talismans.)

[King of Nowhere]

Now i just have to ask: how do you kill a neutronium golem at level 20? Considering that divine fire is, to my understanding, something from which you cannot get resistance, you wouldn't even be able to get remotely close

[noob]

Now i just have to ask: how do you kill a neutronium golem at level 20? Considering that divine fire is, to my understanding, something from which you cannot get resistance, you wouldn't even be able to get remotely close

trivial: you do not get resistance to divine fire:you use time stop and shape-change into something with regeneration and use that undead trait bestowing spell to get immunity to non lethal damage and then spam spells that have sr: no such as many orb spells(cast 20000000 to be really sure to kill it) with the delayed spell metamagic then go away with a flight speed and more time stops.

[ShurikVch]

Now i just have to ask: how do you kill a neutronium golem at level 20? Considering that divine fire is, to my understanding, something from which you cannot get resistance, you wouldn't even be able to get remotely closeYou wouldn't need "to get remotely close": because "divine fire is ... something from which you cannot get resistance", Neutronium Golem itself isn't immune or resistant too, and will self-destruct several minutes later.

[Unavenger]

I've always looked askance at that trick. Scrolls aren't actually "destroyed" when used, the writing simply vanishes. So it's a bit of a stretch to say Rebuild Item works on them. Similarly, wands don't get "destroyed" either, they become "just sticks."

Rebuild Item seems to be aimed more at sundered magic items than expended consumables.

The idea is that you then get the party fighter to sunder the dead wand, and then Rebuild Item to return it to its "Normal, undamaged state". Presumably, the "Normal" undamaged state of a wand is fully-charged, though you can argue otherwise as well.

[noob]

The idea is that you then get the party fighter to sunder the dead wand, and then Rebuild Item to return it to its "Normal, undamaged state". Presumably, the "Normal" undamaged state of a wand is fully-charged, though you can argue otherwise as well.

partially charged is also fine since normal people buy wands with 1 charge left.

[Stevesciguy]

You wouldn't need "to get remotely close": because "divine fire is ... something from which you cannot get resistance", Neutronium Golem itself isn't immune or resistant too, and will self-destruct several minutes later.

Although, that would require a DM to actually rule that it works that way, which isn't going to happen.

[ShurikVch]

Although, that would require a DM to actually rule that it works that way, which isn't going to happen.There, check the Neutronium Golem (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Neutronium_golem) article - does it says something like "Neutronium Golem is immune to it's own Heat Aura"?
And appealing to DM is a bit of fallacy, since - if DM wouldn't want for your "under-leveled" party to destroy the cosmic construct - you wouldn't be able to destroy it, mechanics be damned (even with Epic Spells!)

[Stevesciguy]

There, check the Neutronium Golem (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Neutronium_golem) article - does it says something like "Neutronium Golem is immune to it's own Heat Aura"?
And appealing to DM is a bit of fallacy, since - if DM wouldn't want for your "under-leveled" party to destroy the cosmic construct - you wouldn't be able to destroy it, mechanics be damned (even with Epic Spells!)

No, but if we're going to be that RAW about it


Heat Aura (Ex): The local area surrounding a neutronium golem burns with the fury of a thousand suns. Table G-2: Neutronium Golem Heat Aura details the divine fire damage experienced at different ranges.

It says "the local area surrounding". And one could argue that that means that the Heat Aura does not extend into the Neutronium Golem's space or body, and as such it wouldn't be affected by it. And indeed, if someone got into the Golem's space or body, they'd also be safe.

There are times where strict RAW is appropriate, and times where it's silly. This is one of the latter.

[Psyren]

The idea is that you then get the party fighter to sunder the dead wand, and then Rebuild Item to return it to its "Normal, undamaged state". Presumably, the "Normal" undamaged state of a wand is fully-charged, though you can argue otherwise as well.

By the time it's out of charges though, it's "just a stick." Rebuilding a sundered stick gets you a stick, not a wand.

The skull talisman thing works, though it's a GM call whether such items exist outside of the Frostfell or not. (I'm also having trouble finding the creation rules for them, but that might just be a miss on my part.)

[Jack_Simth]

The skull talisman thing works, though it's a GM call whether such items exist outside of the Frostfell or not. (I'm also having trouble finding the creation rules for them, but that might just be a miss on my part.)
They're twice as expensive as potions, and take a day to craft. The crafting feat itself includes the skull size requirement, how much time they take, the base price, the cost to craft (both in XP and GP), and the activation method (break the skull). Frostburn, page 47.