[3.5] What's the point of Insect Plague?

[Mr Adventurer]

5th level spell that summons one locust swarm per three caster levels for one minute per level; the swarms don't subsequently move.

What's the point of this spell? It just looks like a really bad BFC, since it deals no more than 2d6 damage per round of exposure and the save DC of the swarm's Nauseate isn't based on the spell save DC.

[Venger]

You've answered your own question. It's crappy bfc. There's no hidden utility to this spell, and there's no reason for it to be a 5th. If you're fighting something weak enough to be harmed by vermin but it has a miss chance or high ac or whatever, you're better off with summon swarm.

[ericgrau]

If they followed enemies it might be something, but yeah I can't figure out what to do with this. You can't even use it to wipe out a farm which is the thing to do with regular locusts. Especially with its long duration. Likewise you can't even use it to wipe out a low CR village because it friggin' doesn't move.

You can hit and run to force an enemy with no area attacks to move out of some 10 foot squares. Which still doesn't accomplish much.

The immobility is an issue. I googled a bit and found an idea in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?33773-Insect-plague-abuse
Swarm the foe with one PC while another PC has a readied action to trap him. A wall of stone has about 60 HP + 8 hardness, so a couple rounds to breach. But if you can delay a foe for a couple rounds that's good enough to win a fight anyway. And 3 rounds worth of swarm damage is pretty meh. If you can trap the foe, then that's all you really need and the swarm doesn't really help.

Hmm... some rare monsters are naturally immobile with no area attacks, yet are a very difficult fight blocking something you need. Insect plague might be meant for killing them. That's all I can think of. Drop the plague, come back a few minutes later to the corpse.

A scroll is a bit expensive at levels 9-12, but you could scroll it at very high level. Then just wait 29 game sessions to finally drop your 1k gp victory button on the right foe. At lower level if you see a tough immobile foe and there's no hurry, rest up for 8 hours and prepare insect plague. Nice part of being a divine caster. You didn't even have to learn the spell.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder buffed this to be wasp swarms instead of locust swarms - this gives them better flight maneuverability (relevant so that you can summon them on flying targets) and a Dex damage poison attack.

[Mr Adventurer]

Dread Necromancers have it, so at least they don't have to prepare it.

The rules say the locusts eat organic matter, so perhaps they would eat their way through wooden structures? 2d6, assuming it's halved as weapon damage to an object, only overcomes Hardness 5 one round in what, 12? Just over 8% of the time? Hardly effective.

In a war setting, I guess if you could drop one on the enemy supplies it would be good... But hardly better than other direct-damage spells.

[Elkad]

Creeping Doom isn't any better.

In 1e it was 500-1000 ((1d6+4)*100) damage, and even elder gods only had 400hp, so you could instagib two of them with a decent roll.
Now it's 2d6 per round to 28 different 5' squares (CL14), and the swarms only have 31hp. Hardly a concern at that level. Sure, if you turn one loose in a crowded market, you'll kill a lot of peasants, but there are a million ways to do that.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's at least Long range.

Amusingly, the Organisation entry for Locust Swarm says a "plague" is 11-20 swarms - so Insect Plague can't even summon a plague of insects until caster level 33!

[Mr Adventurer]

The point in that thread @ericgrau linked is useful, that you can overlap part of the space of each swarm with parts of the space of the same large creature, so it takes each swarm's damage all at once. Not much of a saving grace though.

[Piggy Knowles]

I actually quite like the spell, though it certainly isn't as strong as some other 5th-level options. (It's extremely thematic, though, which is always something I look for.)

Anyhow, the things I like about it:


It's long range with a decent duration.
Unlike summon swarm, there's no concentration required to maintain the spell.
It's SR: No, meaning it can work against things like golems that might otherwise be immune to much of your magic.
It's extremely shapeable, making it great for dungeons and other confined spaces, and can even fill multiple rooms, as swarms can occupy any four contiguous squares and squeeze through any space small enough to fit a single locust.
Pursuant to the above, you can use it to completely fill a hallway, room or other location, while leaving gaps for you and your party. Using it this way makes it a lot more potent than just summoning it in a big wide open field where the enemies can just walk out of it, especially if you can otherwise restrict movement (which might mean using it alongside other BFC, but also might mean something as simple as "we locked the door behind us").
There are a ton of monsters you fight in that CR range that simply can't touch swarms, so if you have ways of keeping them from exiting, it's a slow but inevitable death sentence.
A locust swarm "devours any organic material in its path," and it has a pretty decent duration, so you can use it for destructive purposes.


Again, for all that it's still a mostly niche spell. In open areas it's laughably easy to just walk out of the swarm (a round or two of swarm damage certainly isn't going to scare off anything relevant at those encounter levels). And while there are a lot of monsters that can't touch swarms, there are also a lot of foes that are completely unbothered by them (such as anything with decent fast healing or an area attack). But I still think it's a neat option, and one that I've had some fun with before.

[Thurbane]

Destroying crops?

[ericgrau]

Destroying crops?

Thought of that. Alas since it's immobile, it's only good for about a 20'x20' area, give or take based on caster level. More like destroying a garden, which a fireball will do as well... or a commoner with a torch. The locusts can't even do what locusts normally do.

It's super niche to find a foe stuck in an enclosed space that you can hit, run and wait a few minutes to die. But very rarely it does happen. Piggy's comments gave me an idea. It's awesome for a zombie apocalypse. Zombies may keep trying to attack it, or if not you can cage an animal with a cage that won't let locusts in as zombie bait. Probably other super niche uses like that.

[Zaq]

It's super niche to find a foe stuck in an enclosed space that you can hit, run and wait a few minutes to die. But very rarely it does happen.

Serious question: how bad is it when combined with other spells that lock things in place and prevent them from moving? Is it a passable follow-up to solid fog or black tentacles or anything? I can’t recall offhand if there are better DoT spells with a lower cost.

[ericgrau]

Serious question: how bad is it when combined with other spells that lock things in place and prevent them from moving? Is it a passable follow-up to solid fog or black tentacles or anything? I can’t recall offhand if there are better DoT spells with a lower cost.

If you can delay a foe for 2 or 3 rounds he's effectively out of the fight anyway, ready to be finished off after the PCs kill his friends. Plus you need a delay of more like 10 or 20 rounds for insect plague to be of much value. Yes, good point, there is other DoT like flaming sphere at 2nd level which is just as much damage. But insect plague covers a larger area. So trapped foes can't just move to another square in their trap. And it's SR no, no save damage. Its duration of 90+ rounds is nice too. Insect plague is for much longer war of attrition strategies.

[gooddragon1]

They're immune to weapon damage, so against skeletons and zombies it could work. Might also work on a golem with low enough DR. Harass an army.

Could work on a greater stone golem.

[Mr Adventurer]

Locusts can fly, so can you summon them midair?

If so, the kicker is that their flight mobility plus the spell's "doesn't move" clause means they fall to the ground.

This could be useful for targeting (e.g. you can't otherwise see into a solid fog to put them there).

[ericgrau]

They're immune to weapon damage, so against skeletons and zombies it could work. Might also work on a golem with low enough DR. Harass an army.

Could work on a greater stone golem.
More importantly all of these are often unintelligent foes who may not flee the swarm.

[animewatcha]

Well I can see Knowledge devotion as affecting the spell. So 'each swarm' would be 2d6+ 1to5. Also, if you can get multiple swarms to cover a big creature's area ( while 'convincing' said creature to stay ), then you are looking at multiple saves vs nauseate. Gonna roll a 1 sometime. Also, it can be combo'ed with other spells like that evocation one that is Fort save vs con damage every time you say hitpoint damage.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Dragonfire Inspiration parties love this kind of spell. Otherwise it is indeed fairly terrible.

[Mr Adventurer]

Even if Knowledge Devotion and Dragonfire Inspiration both work, and even if they both were applied, the spell would still be lacklustre for its level.

[gooddragon1]

I guess it could be useful against other swarms?

[Karl Aegis]

A 3rd level spell would summon a CR 3 creature, so a 5th level spell would be twice as strong and summon TWO CR 3 creatures.

More seriously, it's a filler spell for monsters or prestige classes can use as filler spell-like abilities. If it summoned a swarm with intelligence, you could improve it with morale effects or use Dark Speech to create a hivemind and use Suggestion on it, but it doesn't.

[The Viscount]

I guess it could be useful against other swarms?

Does the damage from a swarm not count as weapon damage?


Serious question: how bad is it when combined with other spells that lock things in place and prevent them from moving? Is it a passable follow-up to solid fog or black tentacles or anything? I can’t recall offhand if there are better DoT spells with a lower cost.

I'm no expert on DoT spells, but in core another Druid 5 spell is wall of fire, which is 2d6+1 caster level if you get them in the fire. It may not last as long, but if your combat is lasting more than 9 rounds something's a little weird.
Out of core, vortex of teeth is a solid 3d8 as a 4th level spell.
Clerics and druids can of course cause damage over time with the use of summons, but that doesn't feel like what you're looking for.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragonfire Inspiration would affect EVERY LOCUST IN THE AREA, would it not?

That's...a lot of inspiration.

Also, how about creating hiveminds, a la the BoVD?

[Inchhighguy]

This is a typical nerfered 3.5 Spell.

Both the 3E version, and the 2E version, had this great effect: The insects limit vision to 10 feet, and spellcasting within the cloud is impossible. No save or SR.

So it was a great spell caster killer.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Dragonfire Inspiration would affect EVERY LOCUST IN THE AREA, would it not?

That's...a lot of inspiration.

Also, how about creating hiveminds, a la the BoVD?
Afraid not. Dragonfire inspiration doesn't alter the targeting limits of inspire courage, as it's a variation of it rather than it's own bardic music effect. In other words, it still doesn't affect mindless things. But it's also the same rules widget that allows it to benefit from the various Inspire courage boosters, so it's a mixed bag.

[Biggus]

What does DoT spells mean?

[Venger]

What does DoT spells mean?

DoT stands for "damage over time," a term that's more common in computer-based rpgs, like wow. DoT effects are not useful and poorly regarded in 3.x, because you want the combat to end as soon as possible. There isn't really any advantage to doing damage over multiple rounds as opposed to all at once as there is in other games.

[Jay R]

Insect Plague has existed as a 5th level spell since the original D&D in 1974. In that version, it had an area of effect of 3600 square yards, and a range of 480 yards. It obscured vision, and drove all creatures less than 3 hit dice away in a rout.

It was fifth level because that was the highest level clerical spell that existed. [Cleric and Wizard spell levels did not match. Cleric spells went up to 5, and wizard spells up to 6. The first supplement, Greyhawk, increased that to 7 for clerics and 9 for wizards.]

Remember that D&D originally grew out of a wargame, and a lot of the spells were intended for battles.

Also, they were still (kinda sorta) trying to simulate, or at least be inspired by, results seen in literature. The idea of Insect Plague probably came from the reference to a plague of locusts in the Bible.

[Biggus]

DoT stands for "damage over time," a term that's more common in computer-based rpgs, like wow. DoT effects are not useful and poorly regarded in 3.x, because you want the combat to end as soon as possible. There isn't really any advantage to doing damage over multiple rounds as opposed to all at once as there is in other games.

Oh I see, thank you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Afraid not. Dragonfire inspiration doesn't alter the targeting limits of inspire courage, as it's a variation of it rather than it's own bardic music effect. In other words, it still doesn't affect mindless things. But it's also the same rules widget that allows it to benefit from the various Inspire courage boosters, so it's a mixed bag.I'd suggest a rat plague, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

However, as mentioned, a hivemind created from a casting of insect plague would be pretty damned devastating with Dragonfire Inspiration. How many individual bugs are in a swarm of locusts, again?

[Karl Aegis]

I'd suggest a rat plague, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

However, as mentioned, a hivemind created from a casting of insect plague would be pretty damned devastating with Dragonfire Inspiration. How many individual bugs are in a swarm of locusts, again?

Bugs are mindless. By the 3.5e Monster Manual, mindless swarms cannot be a hivemind.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Bugs are mindless. By the 3.5e Monster Manual, mindless swarms cannot be a hivemind.I think the vermin lord overrides that, since it can explicitly create hiveminds from enough vermin (which are mindless by default). This is from the BoVD's definition of hiveminds, which is where the vermin lord is found.

[Mr Adventurer]

Please drop the Dragonfire Inspiration tangent, it's irrelevant since individual locusts don't have stats and don't make attacks when part of a swarm; there are really so many points of failure in the idea.

[Thurbane]

Insect Plague has existed as a 5th level spell since the original D&D in 1974. In that version, it had an area of effect of 3600 square yards, and a range of 480 yards. It obscured vision, and drove all creatures less than 3 hit dice away in a rout.

It was fifth level because that was the highest level clerical spell that existed. [Cleric and Wizard spell levels did not match. Cleric spells went up to 5, and wizard spells up to 6. The first supplement, Greyhawk, increased that to 7 for clerics and 9 for wizards.]

Remember that D&D originally grew out of a wargame, and a lot of the spells were intended for battles.

Also, they were still (kinda sorta) trying to simulate, or at least be inspired by, results seen in literature. The idea of Insect Plague probably came from the reference to a plague of locusts in the Bible.

That's an excellent point: a lot of legacy-ported spells suffer in translation to 3E.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Please drop the Dragonfire Inspiration tangent, it's irrelevant since individual locusts don't have stats and don't make attacks when part of a swarm; there are really so many points of failure in the idea.We're on using insect plague to create hiveminds, TYVM. :smallwink: