Segev
2019-06-20, 12:32 PM
These three rules all govern roughly the same broad thing: taking something from somebody else without their consent. However, one of them is a skill use, and the other two are combat maneuvers. Further, which combat maneuver you use depends entirely on whether the target item is carried/worn or held in hand.
I think you could be forgiven for believing that the way you take a wizard's spell component pouch from his belt is by walking up and rolling Sleight of Hand. It is, after all, the skill that governs taking things off of other people. It's an interesting one, too: the DC is a flat 20 to successfully yoink the item, and the opposed Perception check against a DC set by your roll merely determines if the target realizes you tried (successfully or not) to lift the item in question.
However, this only is the right approach if you're not in combat. More precisely, if you're not in combat or - if in combat - the target item's bearer is unaware of your presence. So, out of combat, you can use Sleight of Hand all you like, until somebody decides to start a fight (perhaps because they noticed you groping their coin purse). Once combat starts, you can still use Sleight of Hand...but you must be successfully hidden (or otherwise undetected). But you still can!
On the other hand, once combat has begun, if you're not successfully hidden, all your skill at picking pockets becomes meaningless. Your base attack bonus and anything else that adds into CMB governs how hard it is to steal an item off of another's person. Their CMD (with bonuses if the item is firmly affixed or thoroughly worn) determines if your roll to Steal was good enough. Of course, as with nearly all combat maneuvers, by default, you provoke an AoO for trying this, and any damage suffered adds to their effective CMD, too.
Unless you have a feat (Improved Steal (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-steal-combat/)), which lets you get a +2 bonus on your CMB for Stealing and negates the AoO. Note that Improved Steal has a prerequisite Int 13 and of the Combat Expertise feat. No Dex requirement, and no relation to Sleight of Hand. The Magus is actually probably better than the Rogue at Stealing, since he has easier access to that feat, and doesn't need to have invested skill points into Sleight of Hand. Which don't help. ...ah, though the thing that lets you hide your stealing is a Rogue Talent, so I suppose there's that.
There are additional feats in this tree, by the by, which do things like increase your bonus further for the Steal maneuver and let you hide the fact that you stole an item until the victim goes to use it. Heck, this feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/graceful-steal-combat) lets you ignore Sleight of Hand entirely for theft purposes, making Steal your default rule even out of combat.
And then there's the Disarm maneuver. Want an item the target is holding, rather than wearing or carrying? You pretty much have to engage in combat; Sleight of Hand will not help you; you need to Disarm him. Weirdly, in PF, you only have the ability to immediately pick up an item you force somebody to drop, rather than allowing you to take it in your empty hand, but that's probably just fluff difference under most circumstances.
But it is odd that the skill has so little to do with actually taking things. The rule sets are largely unrelated.
Sure, "Steal" doesn't have to be - and isn't written to be - about stealth. You're walking up and forcibly taking something off of somebody else. Same with Disarm: you're using your weapon or bare hands to force somebody to drop what's in their hands. Sleight of Hand is all about picking those pockets without anybody noticing.
I think you could be forgiven for believing that the way you take a wizard's spell component pouch from his belt is by walking up and rolling Sleight of Hand. It is, after all, the skill that governs taking things off of other people. It's an interesting one, too: the DC is a flat 20 to successfully yoink the item, and the opposed Perception check against a DC set by your roll merely determines if the target realizes you tried (successfully or not) to lift the item in question.
However, this only is the right approach if you're not in combat. More precisely, if you're not in combat or - if in combat - the target item's bearer is unaware of your presence. So, out of combat, you can use Sleight of Hand all you like, until somebody decides to start a fight (perhaps because they noticed you groping their coin purse). Once combat starts, you can still use Sleight of Hand...but you must be successfully hidden (or otherwise undetected). But you still can!
On the other hand, once combat has begun, if you're not successfully hidden, all your skill at picking pockets becomes meaningless. Your base attack bonus and anything else that adds into CMB governs how hard it is to steal an item off of another's person. Their CMD (with bonuses if the item is firmly affixed or thoroughly worn) determines if your roll to Steal was good enough. Of course, as with nearly all combat maneuvers, by default, you provoke an AoO for trying this, and any damage suffered adds to their effective CMD, too.
Unless you have a feat (Improved Steal (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-steal-combat/)), which lets you get a +2 bonus on your CMB for Stealing and negates the AoO. Note that Improved Steal has a prerequisite Int 13 and of the Combat Expertise feat. No Dex requirement, and no relation to Sleight of Hand. The Magus is actually probably better than the Rogue at Stealing, since he has easier access to that feat, and doesn't need to have invested skill points into Sleight of Hand. Which don't help. ...ah, though the thing that lets you hide your stealing is a Rogue Talent, so I suppose there's that.
There are additional feats in this tree, by the by, which do things like increase your bonus further for the Steal maneuver and let you hide the fact that you stole an item until the victim goes to use it. Heck, this feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/graceful-steal-combat) lets you ignore Sleight of Hand entirely for theft purposes, making Steal your default rule even out of combat.
And then there's the Disarm maneuver. Want an item the target is holding, rather than wearing or carrying? You pretty much have to engage in combat; Sleight of Hand will not help you; you need to Disarm him. Weirdly, in PF, you only have the ability to immediately pick up an item you force somebody to drop, rather than allowing you to take it in your empty hand, but that's probably just fluff difference under most circumstances.
But it is odd that the skill has so little to do with actually taking things. The rule sets are largely unrelated.
Sure, "Steal" doesn't have to be - and isn't written to be - about stealth. You're walking up and forcibly taking something off of somebody else. Same with Disarm: you're using your weapon or bare hands to force somebody to drop what's in their hands. Sleight of Hand is all about picking those pockets without anybody noticing.