[3.5] Theoretical Optimization Challenge

[Thurbane]

So, a home-brew fix I briefly considered for Fighters, is to let them trade out a bonus feat for an Ex class feature available to another class at the same or lower level.

Then I realized this was probably very overpowered, when you consider that things like rage and animal companion are Ex.

My challenge is this: if this rule was in place, what sort of beast could you build?

For this challenge, assume that spellcasting, manifesting and the like are NOT Ex despite any arguments to the contrary. Only abilities specifically tagged as Ex count. No Su, no SLA, No PLA etc.

For the sake of simplicity, only base classes are counted, not PrCs.

Cheers - T


Hmm, good questions.

I guess assume that each features scales as listed in it's own description.

For instance, Rage would scale (uses per day etc.), but Greater Rage or Tireless Rage would require expending more feats, and already having Rage in place to take them.

Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are listed as separate abilities (for Barbarian and Rogue, at least), so would require two feats, and you could get Improved unless you already has Uncanny Dodge.

Also, you can't get the same feature twice: no taking Animal Companion as a Druid, then taking again as the Ranger ability.

[Zaq]

How does scaling work? If you trade a bonus feat for (just as an example) sneak attack at, I dunno, level 6, do you get the sneak attack of a level 6 rogue, or just one die, or what? Would you need to spend more bonus feats to get more SA, or would it happen naturally as you level up? SA is just an example: any scalable class feature would have a similar question.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Would the class features scale with fighter level instead of the base class it came from?
Would class features improve with fighter level, like Uncanny Dodge becoming Improved Uncanny Dodge?


Skirmish is (Ex), so you could get that right at level 1. Likewise, Steely Resolve and a marshal's auras are nice to pick up early on, as is the animal companion, of course.
Dragon shamans get an energy immunity at level 9, but it's immunity to the same damage type as the breath weapon you got at level 4, and that breath weapon is (Su). Slightly weaker but requiring less investment, favoured souls get energy resistance 10 against five types (one at level 5, two at levels 10 and 15).
Healers get a unicorn companion at level 8. Combines nicely with an animal companion, I should think.
Knights have some nice (Ex) abilities, like Bulwark of Defence and Shield Ally.
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (the Incarnate ability) is actually (Ex), but none of the meldshaping is.
Samurai have Mass Staredown, which can be nice if you're Intimidating enough, especially if Zhentarim fighter substitution levels are still valid.

Annoyingly, the CChamp barbarian ACFs do not specify whether they are (Ex) or not, so Pounce may not be an option. Likewise for Decisive Strike.


Overall, I think the fighter could be a nice lockdown specialist with all these (Ex) class features, but it's not going to be a caster. Balance-wise, the companions seem to be the biggest issue, but nothing to go above a strong t3 I think.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, good questions.

I guess assume that each features scales as listed in it's own description.

For instance, Rage would scale (uses per day etc.), but Greater Rage or Tireless Rage would require expending more feats, and already having Rage in place to take them.

Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are listed as separate abilities (for Barbarian and Rogue, at least), so would require two feats, and you could get Improved unless you already has Uncanny Dodge.

Also, you can't get the same feature twice: no taking Animal Companion as a Druid, then taking again as the Ranger ability.

[zlefin]

looking through the srd, there isn't much scary there. Top pick is druid's animal companion; after that nothing is that amazing, just some useable immunities and moderate boosts that aren't any scarier than typical good feats.. unclear whether the stacking rules you specify would let you take multiple ability boosts from the racial paragon classes.

[gooddragon1]

I mean, it's not the strongest, but...

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

An urban ranger can use this ability in any area, whether natural terrain or not.

Variant Urban Ranger (srd) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er)

The normal version:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

...

That means your character could hide anywhere, even in an antimagic field, with no cover, shadows, or anything of any kind.

[pabelfly]

If you wanted to rework your rule, I'd add a caveat that you can't pick any Ex skill that another character wouldn't have by that level. Like, you can't pick Blindsight until level 20 because that's the level Scout gets it and I'm not aware of any other base class that earns it.

Not sure what I'd build, but here are some options I think would be pretty strong:
- Pounce
- Blindsight
- Perfect Self - dr 10/magic and become an outsider
- Auras from Marshal, especially since you're getting them much faster than the Marshall class would

I'm sure the rest of the board will come with much better ideas than this though.

[Thurbane]

If you wanted to rework your rule, I'd add a caveat that you can't pick any Ex skill that another character wouldn't have by that level. Like, you can't pick Blindsight until level 20 because that's the level Scout gets it and I'm not aware of any other base class that earns it.

Well, yeah, I thought was covered, or at least implied, in the OP?


trade out a bonus feat for an Ex class feature available to another class at the same or lower level

[Zaq]

Well, yeah, I thought was covered, or at least implied, in the OP?

Pffft, you think that people read something just because it's literally in the first sentence?

[Venger]

here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?288718-Factotum-Cunning-Brilliance-Choice) is a pretty good list, at least up to 15

[Jack_Simth]

Mine PrC's.

The Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?page=1&x=dnd/iw/20041210b)'s Aptitude Focus is Ex (It's ECL 6, but based on class level... whupsie, a 6th level Chameleon has access to 4th level spells... effectively full casting from 6th to 12th, after which pure casters would start getting 7th level spells, while you're capped at 6th without boosting chains, which may be available), as is the Bonus Feat, and Ability Boon. That's worth three feats, I think, and grabbing Double Aptitude for a fourth may also be wise. Even just Aptitude Focus, though, gets you full casting for several levels.

Most of the Swiftblade's (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) abilities are Ex.

Many of the Arcane Duelist's (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) abilities are Ex.

[Stevesciguy]

Mine PrC's.

The Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?page=1&x=dnd/iw/20041210b)'s Aptitude Focus is Ex (It's ECL 6, but based on class level... whupsie, a 6th level Chameleon has access to 4th level spells... effectively full casting from 6th to 12th, after which pure casters would start getting 7th level spells, while you're capped at 6th without boosting chains, which may be available), as is the Bonus Feat, and Ability Boon. That's worth three feats, I think, and grabbing Double Aptitude for a fourth may also be wise. Even just Aptitude Focus, though, gets you full casting for several levels.

Most of the Swiftblade's (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) abilities are Ex.

Many of the Arcane Duelist's (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) abilities are Ex.

Important note:


For the sake of simplicity, only base classes are counted, not PrCs.

[Jack_Simth]

Important note:
Ah, missed that. Oh well.

[AvatarVecna]

So, a home-brew fix I briefly considered for Fighters, is to let them trade out a bonus feat for an Ex class feature available to another class at the same or lower level.

Then I realized this was probably very overpowered, when you consider that things like rage are Ex.

My challenge is this: if this rule was in place, what sort of beast could you build?

For this challenege, assume that spellcasting, manifesting and the like are NOT Ex despite any arguments to the contrary. Only abilities specifically tagged as Ex count. No Su, no SLA, No PLS etc.

For the sake of simplicity, only base classes are counted, not PrCs.

Cheers - T

It's a good thing PrCs aren't allowed, or Illithid Savant would blow basically everything out of the water. All of those are Ex abilities.

While you can't pick up the bonus feat progression in this way (sadly), nor any of the other abilities that make it more viable (particularly infusions), the actual Item Creation ability of the Artificer is Ex. Spending a feat to be allowed to craft without being a caster as long as you have the item creation feats is how PF approaches this, and nobody claims Master Craftsman is a broken feat.

Crusader's "Steely Resolve" (delayed damage pool) and "Furious Counterstrike" (hit harder based on DDP) are pretty useful and available early, although maneuver progression isn't Ex so that's disappointing.

Divine Mind has what looks like a winner but is actually a trap: Mantle is (Ex) and that single class feature gives you a mantle from a list of options at lvls 1, 6, and 12, and each one gets gradually better over time. You don't get the psionic power advantages of mantles, but honestly with some of these abilities the fact that you're getting them as Ex is already great. Unfortunately, they all work within your aura range, and Psychic Aura is Su, and even if you do like Ardent 1/Fighter X, the aura radius increases with Ardent level anyway, so this wouldn't even be viable on some lame MC build.

As usual, Druid has some winners for us. Pick up an animal companion at full druid level with full access to the high-level druid AC lists for the cost of one measly feat. And while it's not relevant to most PCs, if you want easy mental boosts without physical penalties or being a kobold, you can snipe Timeless Body at lvl 15 and be that super-old dude who inexplicably in better shape than you have ever or will ever be in your life.

If you're playing a fighter with a decent Int, Factotum's got a few things that might be worth taking: Inspiration lvl 1, Brains Over Brawn lvl 3 (it stacks instead of replacing), Cunning Surge lvl 8, Improved Cunning Defense lvl 16 (Int to AC without spending points), and Cunning Brilliance lvl 19. The last one in particular is fitting for this kinda build cuz you'd be looking at picking three Ex abilities at the start of the day and spending inspiration to have them for a few minutes. Of course, with Font Of Inspiration not being a Fighter Bonus Feat, you'd be hard-pressed to have enough inspiration to make other things worth taking, especially since you won't have the skill points for a lot of fun factotum stuff anyway. Plus the magic stuff isn't Ex.

Favored Soul 17 gets Ex Flight. Pretty late-game, but it can't be dispelled.

Healer 8 gets "Unicorn Companion" for 2 hours per day per level, and can later upgrade to a few other kinds of companions. Maybe if you take this after the druid AC, you might be able to convince your DM to let you apply the AC buffs to the unicorn? Maybe not since it gets its own progression anyway, but maybe your DM will relent when he realized you can't buff it the way a druid or healer could?

Hexblade gets Mettle (evasion for Fort/Will) at lvl 3, if you think that's worth spending a feat on?

Knight's Challenge is not an Ex ability, but each sub-feature of Knight's Challenge is. Total challenge uses are part of the base feature too, not part of the sub-features. If you're willing to be flexible and say that "Knight's Challenge" is A) one giant class feature and B) counts as Ex, then that's definitely worth a feat, particularly if you've got the Cha to support it well. But if you have to purchase them each individually...Fighting Challenge is a slowly-leveling bonus to atk/dmg/will against boss monsters, essentially, and Test Of Mettle will force a save vs "attack nobody but me", which helps tank. But even those are dependent on whether you have to spend an initial feat on Knight's Challenge to even have any charges to spend on those challenges. If you do...those abilities aren't worth the "feat tax". If we move past challenges, Knight has some other fun abilities that are stuck in a **** class: Bulwark Of Defense (lvl 3) turns your threatened area into difficult terrain for enemies, Vigilant Defender adds your class level to the DC to tumble through your threatened area, Shield Ally (lvl 6)/Improved Shield Ally (lvl 14) are great for preventing your friend from taking damage they shouldn't, and Impetuous Endurance (lvl 17) lets you not auto-fail saves on a 1.

I think we've found a solid ability on the Lurk in "Lurk Augment". Despite being the psionic rogue class, it's Ex and AFAICT requires neither power points nor sneak attack to actually use. The base abilities aren't anything to write home about typically, but there's probably some way of getting power points on a fighter. Even if there's not, getting a gradually-increasing list of possible free buffs to apply to every attack isn't too shabby for a single feat, especially since one of the really early ones is "+2 damage", making this at least objectively better a feat expenditure than Weapon Specialization (since it applies to all weapons and you get other stuff besides). Beyond that, if you're playing that smart fighter from earlier that took the Factotum stuff, you should pick up Initiative Boost at lvl 6 to add Int to init a second time.

Marshal looks like another winner. AFAICT, "Aura" is one giant class feature that just gets gradually better for every level you take in the class. If you're Cha-heavy, and you think this counts as "one Ex class feature", this is probably a must-pick.

If your DM is willing to let you drop it when you want to, Monk 13's Diamond Soul is Ex SR. Most of the other really good stuff is dependent on not wearing armor, though, so probably give it a skip.

Ninja's "Sudden Strike" is a single class feature that gets gradually better over time. Might be good to snipe that if it fits your style. Come to think of it, this is also true of Ranger's Favored Enemy, Rogue's Sneak Attack, and Scout's Skirmish. If you're cheeky and it's allowed, take Favored Enemy, Skirmish, and Swift Hunter all single-classed and reap the benefits. Or Skirmish, Sneak Attack, and Swift Ambusher. Or both of those things. Oh lord that'd be a hell of a build.

Rogue offers up (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, which isn't nothing.

CW Samurai gets Improved Staredown at lvl 14. It kinda builds on the previous abilities but I think you can take it on its own, and being able to demoralize everybody within 30 ft as a move action is pretty solid for a lvl 14 feat anyway. Extra feats would be too taxing, I think.

Scout (besides the aforementioned Skirmish) gets Ex Freedom Of Movement at lvl 18 and Ex Blindsight 30 ft at lvl 20. Nice captstone feats for a warrior, you think?

Shadowcaster 5 gives "Sustaining Shadow" which gradually takes away some of your biological weaknesses - like needing food and sleep, or having to worry about nonmagical poisons and diseases.

Spellthief gets a slower Sneak Attack progression than rogue, but it's still useful especially in combination. Unfortunately the ability to steal spells is Su, otherwise that'd be amazing.

That Int fighter from earlier might also be interested in picking up Swashbuckler 3's Insightful Strike for Int to dmg, especially since he probably took that Lurk ability and is using more of a Rogue fighting style.

That same Int fighter will find lots of Warblade features that look nifty: lvl 1 Battle Clarity (Ref +Int), lvl 3 Battle Ardor (crit confirm +Int), lvl 7 Battle cunning (damage +Int vs FF/flanked foes, more relevant on a rogue build), and lvl 15 Battle Mastery (atk/dmg +Int on AoOs, more relevant on an AoO lockdown build).

Wilder's Volatile Mind ability (lvl 5) gradually increases the number of power points necessary to manifest a telepathy power on you. they don't count as augments they're just an increase to the base cost...and if the increase would take the PP invested above character level, the power fails. Won't come up often, never in some games, but if your DM is fond of psionics and particularly telepaths, this might be worth taking.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sweet, you can get swashbucklers seduce to learn secret from dead levels and marshal's charisma minor aura. Throw that on a killoren, and get some charming the arrow feat to shoot based on charisma. Nab rapidshot from the ranger and maybe cha to AC from battledancer. Stack with some of those weird Forgotten realms fighter acfs that also use charisma.

Grab druid and urban druids companions while keeping full BAB yourself.

[Stevesciguy]

It's a good thing PrCs aren't allowed, or Illithid Savant would blow basically everything out of the water. All of those are Ex abilities.

While you can't pick up the bonus feat progression in this way (sadly), nor any of the other abilities that make it more viable (particularly infusions), the actual Item Creation ability of the Artificer is Ex. Spending a feat to be allowed to craft without being a caster as long as you have the item creation feats is how PF approaches this, and nobody claims Master Craftsman is a broken feat.

Crusader's "Steely Resolve" (delayed damage pool) and "Furious Counterstrike" (hit harder based on DDP) are pretty useful and available early, although maneuver progression isn't Ex so that's disappointing.

Divine Mind has what looks like a winner but is actually a trap: Mantle is (Ex) and that single class feature gives you a mantle from a list of options at lvls 1, 6, and 12, and each one gets gradually better over time. You don't get the psionic power advantages of mantles, but honestly with some of these abilities the fact that you're getting them as Ex is already great. Unfortunately, they all work within your aura range, and Psychic Aura is Su, and even if you do like Ardent 1/Fighter X, the aura radius increases with Ardent level anyway, so this wouldn't even be viable on some lame MC build.

As usual, Druid has some winners for us. Pick up an animal companion at full druid level with full access to the high-level druid AC lists for the cost of one measly feat. And while it's not relevant to most PCs, if you want easy mental boosts without physical penalties or being a kobold, you can snipe Timeless Body at lvl 15 and be that super-old dude who inexplicably in better shape than you have ever or will ever be in your life.

If you're playing a fighter with a decent Int, Factotum's got a few things that might be worth taking: Inspiration lvl 1, Brains Over Brawn lvl 3 (it stacks instead of replacing), Cunning Surge lvl 8, Improved Cunning Defense lvl 16 (Int to AC without spending points), and Cunning Brilliance lvl 19. The last one in particular is fitting for this kinda build cuz you'd be looking at picking three Ex abilities at the start of the day and spending inspiration to have them for a few minutes. Of course, with Font Of Inspiration not being a Fighter Bonus Feat, you'd be hard-pressed to have enough inspiration to make other things worth taking, especially since you won't have the skill points for a lot of fun factotum stuff anyway. Plus the magic stuff isn't Ex.

Favored Soul 17 gets Ex Flight. Pretty late-game, but it can't be dispelled.

Healer 8 gets "Unicorn Companion" for 2 hours per day per level, and can later upgrade to a few other kinds of companions. Maybe if you take this after the druid AC, you might be able to convince your DM to let you apply the AC buffs to the unicorn? Maybe not since it gets its own progression anyway, but maybe your DM will relent when he realized you can't buff it the way a druid or healer could?

Hexblade gets Mettle (evasion for Fort/Will) at lvl 3, if you think that's worth spending a feat on?

Knight's Challenge is not an Ex ability, but each sub-feature of Knight's Challenge is. Total challenge uses are part of the base feature too, not part of the sub-features. If you're willing to be flexible and say that "Knight's Challenge" is A) one giant class feature and B) counts as Ex, then that's definitely worth a feat, particularly if you've got the Cha to support it well. But if you have to purchase them each individually...Fighting Challenge is a slowly-leveling bonus to atk/dmg/will against boss monsters, essentially, and Test Of Mettle will force a save vs "attack nobody but me", which helps tank. But even those are dependent on whether you have to spend an initial feat on Knight's Challenge to even have any charges to spend on those challenges. If you do...those abilities aren't worth the "feat tax". If we move past challenges, Knight has some other fun abilities that are stuck in a **** class: Bulwark Of Defense (lvl 3) turns your threatened area into difficult terrain for enemies, Vigilant Defender adds your class level to the DC to tumble through your threatened area, Shield Ally (lvl 6)/Improved Shield Ally (lvl 14) are great for preventing your friend from taking damage they shouldn't, and Impetuous Endurance (lvl 17) lets you not auto-fail saves on a 1.

I think we've found a solid ability on the Lurk in "Lurk Augment". Despite being the psionic rogue class, it's Ex and AFAICT requires neither power points nor sneak attack to actually use. The base abilities aren't anything to write home about typically, but there's probably some way of getting power points on a fighter. Even if there's not, getting a gradually-increasing list of possible free buffs to apply to every attack isn't too shabby for a single feat, especially since one of the really early ones is "+2 damage", making this at least objectively better a feat expenditure than Weapon Specialization (since it applies to all weapons and you get other stuff besides). Beyond that, if you're playing that smart fighter from earlier that took the Factotum stuff, you should pick up Initiative Boost at lvl 6 to add Int to init a second time.

Marshal looks like another winner. AFAICT, "Aura" is one giant class feature that just gets gradually better for every level you take in the class. If you're Cha-heavy, and you think this counts as "one Ex class feature", this is probably a must-pick.

If your DM is willing to let you drop it when you want to, Monk 13's Diamond Soul is Ex SR. Most of the other really good stuff is dependent on not wearing armor, though, so probably give it a skip.

Ninja's "Sudden Strike" is a single class feature that gets gradually better over time. Might be good to snipe that if it fits your style. Come to think of it, this is also true of Ranger's Favored Enemy, Rogue's Sneak Attack, and Scout's Skirmish. If you're cheeky and it's allowed, take Favored Enemy, Skirmish, and Swift Hunter all single-classed and reap the benefits. Or Skirmish, Sneak Attack, and Swift Ambusher. Or both of those things. Oh lord that'd be a hell of a build.

Rogue offers up (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, which isn't nothing.

CW Samurai gets Improved Staredown at lvl 14. It kinda builds on the previous abilities but I think you can take it on its own, and being able to demoralize everybody within 30 ft as a move action is pretty solid for a lvl 14 feat anyway. Extra feats would be too taxing, I think.

Scout (besides the aforementioned Skirmish) gets Ex Freedom Of Movement at lvl 18 and Ex Blindsight 30 ft at lvl 20. Nice captstone feats for a warrior, you think?

Shadowcaster 5 gives "Sustaining Shadow" which gradually takes away some of your biological weaknesses - like needing food and sleep, or having to worry about nonmagical poisons and diseases.

Spellthief gets a slower Sneak Attack progression than rogue, but it's still useful especially in combination. Unfortunately the ability to steal spells is Su, otherwise that'd be amazing.

That Int fighter from earlier might also be interested in picking up Swashbuckler 3's Insightful Strike for Int to dmg, especially since he probably took that Lurk ability and is using more of a Rogue fighting style.

That same Int fighter will find lots of Warblade features that look nifty: lvl 1 Battle Clarity (Ref +Int), lvl 3 Battle Ardor (crit confirm +Int), lvl 7 Battle cunning (damage +Int vs FF/flanked foes, more relevant on a rogue build), and lvl 15 Battle Mastery (atk/dmg +Int on AoOs, more relevant on an AoO lockdown build).

Wilder's Volatile Mind ability (lvl 5) gradually increases the number of power points necessary to manifest a telepathy power on you. they don't count as augments they're just an increase to the base cost...and if the increase would take the PP invested above character level, the power fails. Won't come up often, never in some games, but if your DM is fond of psionics and particularly telepaths, this might be worth taking.

Yeah, feels like there's a lot of love for a Dex/Int build.

An important note, I feel. The existence of the Ranger's fighting styles essentially allows you to pick TWF feats without needing to meet the Dex requirement. So you could actually have a decent strength and be TWF, which is one of its main weaknesses

[HouseRules]

Yeah, feels like there's a lot of love for a Dex/Int build.

Most game bonus are tied to INT.

Many(Ex) are tied to those two ability scores.

[pabelfly]

Well, yeah, I thought was covered, or at least implied, in the OP?

My mistake.

[Anthrowhale]

Venger->BowStreetRunner's list is nice.

AC (as mentioned) is great.

Mettle+Improved Evasion are nice.

Skirmish+Sneak Attack (via Spellthief) gives potent escalating precision damage.

Diamond Soul (scaling spell resistance) seems good.

Overall, nothing seems broken compared to spellcasters and it's comparable to good feats. For example, AC is only modestly better than Wild Cohort and Craven is about as good as spellthief sneak attack or skirmish. It would obsolete some other classes (Knight, Barbarian), but leave skill monkey intact as a separate role.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, feels like there's a lot of love for a Dex/Int build.

I had three vague builds forming in my mind through this. First, an int-focused build that more or less gives up all feats for factotum inspiration abilities and Int-to-X stuff sprinkled from throughout the list - essentially play it as a Factotum with a Fighter chassis. Second, a slight variation on common lockdown builds where I get massive reach on a spiked chain/lots of AoOs/lots of ways to trigger AoOs, pick up the knight threatened area abilities, pick up the knight "focus on me" abilities, and maybe pick up the Marshal Auras for a flexible boost to all my allies nearby (maybe Shield Ally, Evasion, and Mettle if I have the feats for it). The third is a build I alluded to in that list: Fighter 20 who spent three feats to get skirmish and favored enemy as a scout/ranger twice his level, and skirmish bypasses type-based precision immunity for his FE targets. The end result would be a monstrous combatant most of the time and extra-dangerous against his FEs.

[Yan Korlat]

EDIT-I managed to miss that only base classes are allowed. That invalidates this.

This gets ridiculous extremely quickly. Here’s my current best attempt: use the blade of orien capstone and base ability, and shadowpounce, to get 5 fulll attacks per turn, plus however many more teleports you can get. Grab cunning surge, and start laughing(dip factotum to get fuel). Then pump cha and I think, and grab the relevant abilities from Iajatsu master. Motivate cha from marshal. We now have a fighter/factotum set up to do 3(attacks per full attack)*6(full attacks per turn)*(weapon damage+9*(d6+cha)). That’s 18*weapon damage+162*(3.5+cha). We’re in the thousands for damage. In addition to this, you have the full skill monkey chassis if you take able learner.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Well, if Maneuvers count, grab those at first level and never look back. Even if you can only do this grab once, you are still now the strongest initiator class because of all those bonus feats. If you can do it multiple times, grab them from all three initiator classes.

[Stevesciguy]

use the blade of orien capstone and base ability, and shadowpounce

Important note:


For the sake of simplicity, only base classes are counted, not PrCs.

[Yan Korlat]

Important note:

I missed that completely, oops.

[SirNibbles]

Annoyingly, the CChamp barbarian ACFs do not specify whether they are (Ex) or not, so Pounce may not be an option. Likewise for Decisive Strike.

Barbarian ACF for pounce says it is su as are all of the totems.

"Each of these effects is a supernatural ability."

__

You said TO so I'm not sorry:
Rogue's Sneak Attack is (Ex). Then trade that away for Fighter bonus feat ACF to get them at every level that a fighter would get them. You've now doubled your feats. You're not really taking it more than once.

Fighter 1: Rogue Fighter Bonus Feats
Rogue Fighter 1: Arcane Hunter (Ranger)
Fighter 2: Skirmish (Scout)
Rogue Fighter 2: Solitary Hunting (Ranger)
Level 3: Swift Hunter
Already a solid base.

[liquidformat]

For the purpose of this experiment how do you could the paragon classes?

There are some cool stuff there to cherry pick such as: Sorcerous Blood (Ex) at level 1, save bonus at level 1, adaptive learning at level 1, +2 to any ability score at level 3.

[weckar]

Please clarify: we can pull from base classes only?

SA and Skirmish at full progression by lv 2 is neat.

[Ken Murikumo]

Throw in pathfinder and its archetypes for a buttload more options.

I've always wanted a build-a-class class with decent rules and this gets pretty close.
Though, i think DM arbitration is always going to be needed, especially for this project.

[weckar]

Whatever you end up doing, it is going to obviate the actual SA fighter.

[StevenC21]

Well, the Generic Warrior from UA is decently close to that.

[Stevesciguy]

Throw in pathfinder and its archetypes for a buttload more options.

I've always wanted a build-a-class class with decent rules and this gets pretty close.
Though, i think DM arbitration is always going to be needed, especially for this project.

That does exist, although it depends on your definition of "decent rules"...

Look up the FFD20 Freelancer. It is exactly that, but it is - as I'm sure you can imagine - very strong, even if you limit it to ffd20 material only. If you allow the player to use 3.PF material... things can go crazy(crazy awesome)

There's also an Archetype that lets you pick monster abilities rather the class abilities, and I would argue that that might be even more broken.

[AvatarVecna]

That does exist, although it depends on your definition of "decent rules"...

Look up the FFD20 Freelancer. It is exactly that, but it is - as I'm sure you can imagine - very strong, even if you limit it to ffd20 material only. If you allow the player to use 3.PF material... things can go crazy(crazy awesome)

There's also an Archetype that lets you pick monster abilities rather the class abilities, and I would argue that that might be even more broken.

I recall a game that let us build into epic with that class. Drawing from any 3.P material. Including PrCs. And let us have the monster archetype for free. And homebrew was on the table. It got out of hand rather quickly.

If PF is on the table yeah this gets way more interesting though.

[Stevesciguy]

I recall a game that let us build into epic with that class. Drawing from any 3.P material. Including PrCs. And let us have the monster archetype for free. And homebrew was on the table. It got out of hand rather quickly.

If PF is on the table yeah this gets way more interesting though.

Yes, I remember that. Was my introduction to the class. Actually had a lot of fun building for that. Unfortunately, it looks like the game died immediately.

I've gotten a chance to use it in a game under less insane circumstances, and it's quite fun

[SirNibbles]

In addition to what others have said:
Impetuous Endurance (Knight 17) removes auto fail on saves.
Sustaining Shadow (Shadowcaster 5) generally makes life easier.
Knowledge Focus (Truenamer 2) gives you +12 to knowledge. Great for Knowledge Devotion.
Barbarian 20 gives Relentless Smash, though at that point you're probably dropping anything you hit three times or crit.

[pabelfly]

Knowledge Focus (Truenamer 2) gives you +12 to knowledge. Great for Knowledge Devotion.

Is that how it works? I always thought it was just a reflavoured Skill Focus (Knowledge: _____) that just gave a +3 to a knowledge skill that you could stack if you wanted to.

[SirNibbles]

Is that how it works? I always thought it was just a reflavoured Skill Focus (Knowledge: _____) that just gave a +3 to a knowledge skill that you could stack if you wanted to.

It gives four separate +3s that can be used on the same or different Knowledge skills, for +12 total bonus.

Bonuses are at levels 2, 7, 10, and 14.

[pabelfly]

It gives four separate +3s that can be used on the same or different Knowledge skills, for +12 total bonus.

Bonuses are at levels 2, 7, 10, and 14.

Ah, okay. Not sure what sort of fighter would make use of that though - maybe a fighter with a high Knowledge (Religion) check that makes sacrifices to get various bonuses from the Book of Vile Darkness sacrifice table?

[zlefin]

the talk about custom classes reminds me: I recall there being a nice point based class builder on these GitP forums somewhere, but I can't find it. anyone remember it/one?

[AvatarVecna]

the talk about custom classes reminds me: I recall there being a nice point based class builder on these GitP forums somewhere, but I can't find it. anyone remember it/one?

Are you thinking of Draken's Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240717), Zaydos' Freelancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19694290&postcount=9), or Jormengand's Wanderer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23069519&postcount=3)?