Most Effective Builds For Each Class?

[Allistar]

Title says it all. I should add that it doesn't necessarily have to be the best combat builds, although that's one of the major reasons I'm here. Of all builds I'm looking for I really like the prospect of support/healer builds, battlefield control builds and tank builds.

I've got a few that seem pretty good but aren't really all that different to playing the class as normal

DPR fighter- Half orc champion fighter/frenzy barbarian with the GWM feat. Early game, this guy can clock out damage at a pretty good rate, but late game it gets even crazier. You get 3 attacks, with the possibility of a fourth from frenzy and a good bit of nova possibility with the action surges and extra crit potential. Haven't done the math but something tells me that it's a lot of damage.

Dice Master Wizard- Halfling divination wizard with the lucky feat, second chance feat, and the bountiful luck feat. This literally makes you the god of all rolls at the table, and I have no other way of describing it. Best part is, its most effective as a support ability and you also become "The Man" at the table who can save that one guy from having a bad night when he isn't rolling so hot (you know the kind). Win win for everybody.

AC Tank- Warforged vengeance paladin with a cloak, ring, and Ioun stone of protection as well as +3 shield. Using haste on yourself you also get a +2 to AC on top of everything else. This at max proficiency bonus and using the heavy armor option for integrated protection gives you a pretty modest AC of 31. You are also pretty good at saving throws with all of the added bonuses from the magic items as well as the paladin abilities. Of course you can still smite and everything, but I reckon the AC and extra attack from haste are just about on par with most smites provided enough rounds.

HP Tank- Hill dwarf totem barbarian with the tough feat. Pretty basic, you get the biggest hit die and the biggest bonus to HP as well as resistance to just about everything with the bear totem. You're still a barbarian too, so you can still bring quite a bit of hurt when push comes to shove.

1 Round Wonder- bugbear assassin rogue/gloomstalker ranger with purple worm poison and hunter's mark. Also pretty basic, get a crap ton of dice, and because you're an assassin you insta crit and deal ludicrous damage. The catch is it's only to one enemy and after that first round you're a lot less effective. Still fine because you're a rogue/ranger, but nothing will beat that 1st round nova.

I'm not too familiar with the other classes from here so go wild and show me what ya got!

[Blood of Gaea]

Of all builds I'm looking for I really like the prospect of support/healer builds, battlefield control builds and tank builds.
Well, tank or battlefield control can narrow down the subclasses quite a lot.

Barbarian: Ancestral Guardian.
Bard: Glamour.
Cleric: Basically any subclass with heavy armor, use Spirit Guardians.
Druid: Moon.
Fighter: Cavelier.
Monk: Shadow Monk with Darkness and Silence is about as close to battlefield control as your getting. Honorable mention to high-level Four Elements Monk.
Paladin: Conquest.
Ranger: I honestly don't know. Gloomstaler is generally the best overall Ranger though.
Rogue: Swashbuckler.
Sorcerer: Storm or Shadow I guess? The subclass won't matter too much for control.
Warlock: Hexblade will be your tank, you won't be getting a whole lot of control, but you grab a bit.
Wizard: Abjuration is the best combination of control and tank.

[LudicSavant]

DPR fighter- Half orc champion fighter/frenzy barbarian with the GWM feat. Early game, this guy can clock out damage at a pretty good rate, but late game it gets even crazier. You get 3 attacks, with the possibility of a fourth from frenzy and a good bit of nova possibility with the action surges and extra crit potential. Haven't done the math but something tells me that it's a lot of damage.

I have, and wasn't impressed by it. At least the versions of it I tested or have seen played (if you've got a version you'd like me to try, I'll look at it).

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many would consider it good DPR, but if we're talking about "the best" then it wasn't comparable to other Fighter builds I tested.

The highest I've seen for primarily Fighter builds (e.g. Fighter 11+) was around 300 DPR vs CR20 foes (after counting miss chance etc) for a self-sufficient, repeatable combo, more with party buffs or magic items or specific 1/day scenarios like Strength Before Death (in which case I was able to push well over 700 and keep going).

Stuff that was really up there were things like Eldritch Knight / Caster setups using Shadowblade, or various CBE/Sharpshooter builds with Gloom Stalker and the like (note: Gloom Stalker's extra attack doubles on an Action Surge (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/950172203424731136?lang=en)).


AC Tank- Warforged vengeance paladin with a cloak, ring, and Ioun stone of protection as well as +3 shield. Using haste on yourself you also get a +2 to AC on top of everything else. This at max proficiency bonus and using the heavy armor option for integrated protection gives you a pretty modest AC of 31. You are also pretty good at saving throws with all of the added bonuses from the magic items as well as the paladin abilities. Of course you can still smite and everything, but I reckon the AC and extra attack from haste are just about on par with most smites provided enough rounds.

Standard Sword Bardadin gets more AC than this without even using magic items or Warforged, and casts 9th level spells besides.

For example, just using 1st level spells they can get 29-40 AC (18 plate +2 shield +5 Shield +2 Shield of Faith +1 Defensive +1d12 Flourish). With magic items/warforged it gets far higher. And that's before they take out their big defensive guns like Foresight, Contingency, etc.

[DissidentWizard]

Tank/Healer - redemption paladin/life cleric

Hill dwarf with toughness gives huge amounts of hp. Aura of the guardian and warding bond mean you can use your bag of hp to keep damage off allies. Then blessed healer keeps your own hp high each time you restore others. Concentration is also open, for compelled duel, spirit guardians, etc.

Alternatives - use order cleric to give free attacks everytime you healing word but at the cost of a little regen on yourself. Or you can use cavalier to mark targets for disadvantage

[LudicSavant]

DPR fighter- Half orc champion fighter/frenzy barbarian with the GWM feat. Early game, this guy can clock out damage at a pretty good rate, but late game it gets even crazier. You get 3 attacks, with the possibility of a fourth from frenzy and a good bit of nova possibility with the action surges and extra crit potential. Haven't done the math but something tells me that it's a lot of damage.

Here's the math for it.

So I'm assuming we're talking Frenzy 3 / Champion 17 so that you can get Superior Critical and the 3 attacks you mentioned.

So with Reckless Attack / GWF / GWM / Raging / Half-Orc crit bonus / Frenzy / Action Surge against an AC 19 opponent (not that high for level 20) we get... just ~138 DPR.

Not very crazy. Lower than a standard GWM Champion 20 getting Advantage, in fact (just due to missing out on Extra Attack). Sorry :smallfrown:

Here's the calculation using the calculator from my sig (the figure you want is "-5/+10 DPR, Advantage" highlighted in bright red): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ccn_nQV6l5WhwQFU31DE-XvQyeQLG8oKm2AvWhMGqA/edit?usp=sharing
And using AnyDice (hit "Summary" and look at "Mean"): https://anydice.com/program/1642e

[Allistar]

I have, and wasn't impressed by it. At least the versions of it I tested or have seen played (if you've got a version you'd like me to try, I'll look at it).

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many would consider it good DPR, but if we're talking about "the best" then it wasn't comparable to other Fighter builds I tested.

The highest I've seen for primarily Fighter builds (e.g. Fighter 11+) was around 300 DPR vs CR20 foes (after counting miss chance etc) for a self-sufficient, repeatable combo, more with party buffs or magic items or specific 1/day scenarios like Strength Before Death (in which case I was able to push well over 700 and keep going).

Stuff that was really up there were things like Eldritch Knight / Caster setups using Shadowblade, or various CBE/Sharpshooter builds with Gloom Stalker and the like

I suppose you're right about the lower DPR for the 20th lvl fighter, but I also thing there's somthing to be gleaned by being resistant to some of the most common types of damage in the game. At the cost of a bit of damage I think that trade is pretty alright. Just curious though, what is the graph like for a 20th level fighter

I'm really curious as to how you can push over 700 damage on average, that seams way beyond what I ever expected possible in 5e. I mean it took a lot of homebrewing and a very lenient DM for me to ever push 500 with 1 round wonder up there. If you have the character sheet I'd be really interested in seeing how you've achieved this.

As for the eldritch knight, I would have never guessed that they were in contention with highest DPR. I guess I've been sleeping on this subclass quite a bit longer than I should have.


Standard Sword Bardadin gets more AC than this without even using magic items or Warforged, and casts 9th level spells besides.

For example, just using 1st level spells they can get 29-40 AC (18 plate +2 shield +5 Shield +2 Shield of Faith +1 Defensive +1d12 Flourish). With magic items/warforged it gets far higher. And that's before they take out their big defensive guns like Foresight, Contingency, etc.

The thing I was thinking about was a "always on" kind of thing with not a lot of once/few times per rest abilities, and IIRC the defensive flourish is tied to inspiration, and shield is a 1 round thing. It's a good way to get a ludicrous AC for a couple rounds, but if the fight goes on for a while I'd really prefer the passive increases. Its like comparing a 100 meter dash to a marathon for me. Although you do bring up a few things I could use for my version of the build (I forgot shield of faith could target a buddy,). I also think foresight brings up a good point "disadvantage on hitting you is pretty good" so I suppose you could take out the Ioun Stone and replace it with a Cloak of Displacement or other displacement effect.

[EugeneVoid]

The highest I've seen for primarily Fighter builds (e.g. Fighter 11+) was around 300 DPR vs CR20 foes (after counting miss chance etc) for a self-sufficient, repeatable combo, more with party buffs or magic items or specific 1/day scenarios like Strength Before Death (in which case I was able to push well over 700 and keep going).

Stuff that was really up there were things like Eldritch Knight / Caster setups using Shadowblade, or various CBE/Sharpshooter builds with Gloom Stalker and the like (note: Gloom Stalker's extra attack doubles on an Action Surge (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/950172203424731136?lang=en)).


Do you have a list somewhere? Something similar to DPR Kings in 4e?

[LudicSavant]

I'm really curious as to how you can push over 700 damage on average, that seams way beyond what I ever expected possible in 5e.

Plain ol' Samurai 20 can do it if they get buffs from teammates and pop Strength Before Death. Here is one example of a method to get over 700 DPR in a round (against an AC 19 opponent):



Samurai 20 (Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Elven Accuracy/Max Dex):
Fighting Spirit / Rapid Strike: 85.4 DPR
FS / RS / Action Surge: 160.3 DPR
FS / RS / AS / Strength Before Death: 320.6 DPR

Note that the Samurai in particular scales incredibly well with buffs / teamwork due to AS, RS and SBD. Let me give you an idea of how well:
FS/RS/Elemental Weapon (1 hour buff, cast at 7th level): 133.45 DPR.
FS/RS/Action Surge + Elemental Weapon: 248.1 DPR
FS/RS/Action Surge + Elemental Weapon + Holy Weapon (they stack, but two different party members need to do it): 333.8 DPR

FS/RS/AS/EW/SBD: 496.2 DPR
FS/RS/AS/EW/HW/SBD: 667.6 DPR
FS/RS/AS/EW/HW/SBD/Haste: 744.7 DPR

So uh, yeah. Cast a buff on your local Samurai today. It's good value for your spell slot/Concentration. (I seriously feel like accounting for teamwork is overlooked WAY too often in character optimization threads. The Samurai scales really well with teamwork due to their features basically acting as a force multiplier for every die that gets added to them).

(Note: I'm usually the one playing the buffer here, so I often calculate who in the party is best to buff ^^;;)

[Blood of Gaea]

Plain ol' Samurai 20 can do it if they get buffs from teammates and pop Strength Before Death. Here is one example of a method to get over 700 DPR in a round (against an AC 19 opponent):
Needing to be buffed by 3 people and also be dying that round seems pretty silly for a DPR calculation. Like, I totally understand wanting to account for teamwork, but that's just silly.

It's also not really DPR if it's burst damage.

[LudicSavant]

Needing to be buffed by 3 people and also be dying that round seems pretty silly for a DPR calculation. Like, I totally understand wanting to account for teamwork, but that's just silly.

:smallsigh: I specifically said that the 700+ was not representative of consistent, self-sufficient damage.


The highest I've seen for primarily Fighter builds (e.g. Fighter 11+) was around 300 DPR vs CR20 foes (after counting miss chance etc) for a self-sufficient, repeatable combo, more with party buffs or magic items or specific 1/day scenarios like Strength Before Death (in which case I was able to push well over 700 and keep going).

Edit: Also worth mentioning is that I provided a total of 9 DPR calculations for the Samurai, covering a wide variety of possible situations. Notably, just the "uses Action Surge" situation already out-DPRs the Berserker build's Action Surge considerably, before we take into account how well Samurais scale with buffs. And doesn't give you Exhaustion levels :smalltongue:

[Allistar]

:smallsigh: I specifically said that the 700+ was not representative of consistent, self-sufficient damage.

So then what was the repeatable one like and how did it get a 300 DPR?

[Blood of Gaea]

So then what was the repeatable one like and how did it get a 300 DPR?
I'd also like to see that.

[Makorel]

Samurai 20 (Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert/Elven Accuracy/Max Dex):
Fighting Spirit / Rapid Strike: 85.4 DPR
FS / RS / Action Surge: 160.3 DPR
FS / RS / AS / Strength Before Death: 320.6 DPR

Note that the Samurai in particular scales incredibly well with buffs / teamwork due to AS, RS and SBD. Let me give you an idea of how well:
FS/RS/Elemental Weapon (1 hour buff, cast at 7th level): 133.45 DPR.
FS/RS/Action Surge + Elemental Weapon: 248.1 DPR
FS/RS/Action Surge + Elemental Weapon + Holy Weapon (they stack, but two different party members need to do it): 333.8 DPR

FS/RS/AS/EW/SBD: 496.2 DPR
FS/RS/AS/EW/HW/SBD: 667.6 DPR
FS/RS/AS/EW/HW/SBD/Haste: 744.7 DPR

What does Crossbow Expert do for these damage calcs? If you're popping Fighting Spirit then that costs your bonus action so you can't get the bonus action attack from the feat to contribute for this particular instance.

Also are we assuming that the two rapid strike attacks are getting advantage somehow, and if so from what method is this being done? The thing about Reckless Attack is that it's advantage in a can; there's no need to sacrifice at least one attack to shove prone (also assuming the creature is small enough to be shoved) or hope your party composition includes someone who knows Faerie Fire with them or something. The Samurai clearly doesn't need such a multiclass but what other methods of advantage can the other fighters get regularly?

And also do these calcs take the Archery Fighting Style into account?

[LudicSavant]

What does Crossbow Expert do for these damage calcs? It allows you to use a heavy crossbow instead of a longbow. It is also good for practical reasons unrelated to the DPR calc (namely, that you can shoot someone in the face at melee range).


Also are we assuming that the two rapid strike attacks are getting advantage somehow, and if so from what method is this being done? The thing about Reckless Attack is that it's advantage in a can; there's no need to sacrifice at least one attack to shove prone (also assuming the creature is small enough to be shoved) or have to rely on someone carrying faerie fire with them or something. The Samurai clearly doesn't need such a multiclass but what other methods of advantage can the other fighters get regularly?

The calculation has the Samurai gaining Advantage via the use of Fighting Spirit, as noted.

[Makorel]

The calculation has the Samurai gaining Advantage via the use of Fighting Spirit.

Wait is that how this ability works? You forgo the advantage of one of your Fighting Spirit attacks to get two attacks, but because you're using Fighting Spirit you still have advantage on those two attacks until the end of your turn? Is that right?

[LudicSavant]

Wait is that how this ability works? You forgo the advantage of one of your Fighting Spirit attacks to get two attacks, but because you're using Fighting Spirit you still have advantage on those two attacks until the end of your turn? Is that right?

Not quite. The way it works is that you forego Advantage on one attack in order to get a new attack. You can still get advantage on the new attack.

[Makorel]

Not quite. The way it works is that you forego Advantage on one attack in order to get a new attack. You can still get advantage on the new attack.

I see now. Thank you for the clarification.

[Allistar]

Not quite. The way it works is that you forego Advantage on one attack in order to get a new attack. You can still get advantage on the new attack.

I've never actually thought about that interaction.... Yeah that makes sense now.

[LudicSavant]

I see now. Thank you for the clarification.


I've never actually thought about that interaction.... Yeah that makes sense now.

NP! :smallsmile:

As for how you can get around 300 DPR on an action surge without relying on magic items, teammates, or very limited things like SBD, there are a few ways to do it. Most of them involve the fact that Gloom Stalkers and Hexblades are silly dip classes.

Gloom Stalker is a silly dip class because Dread Ambusher is doubled on an Action Surge. (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/950172203424731136?lang=en)
Hexblade is a silly dip class because Hexblade's Curse scales with Proficiency (among other things). I mean, I probably don't need to explain too much why Hexblade is a silly dip class, do I?

So for example let's take a simple Battle Master 12 / Gloom Stalker 3 / Warlock 5. You are a stealthy elf and take Elven Accuracy/Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert. You also have Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite, and the Archery and Defense fighting styles (You get 1 from GS, 1 from BM).

So you open a fight and do your Dread Ambusher thing, ideally starting from being hidden (though it's not necessary for reasons you'll see shortly). You have a +14 to hit (+1 Improved Pact Weapon, +2 Archery, +6 Proficiency, +5 Dex). And Precision Strike and Elven Accuracy. Which means your chance of missing AC19 on your initial attack is less than 1%, even without Triple Advantage. With triple advantage and -5 to hit, your chance is >98%. In other words, you hit, knock the enemy prone with Eldritch Smite, and then can walk up to them and shoot the rest of your crossbow bolts directly into their prone faces with triple advantage (remember, Prone doesn't actually require you to use a melee attack, just for you to be within 5 feet).

You use your bonus action to use Hexblade's Curse on them, which means that your crit rate with triple Advantage is 27.1%, and that you add proficiency (+6) to every attack.

Okay. So now you attack for 1d10 (heavy crossbow) +5 (dex) +1 (improved pact weapon) +6 (curse) +10 (Sharpshooter), 8 times (3 from Extra Attack +1 from Dread Ambusher, doubled by Action Surge). And the first 5 attacks have Superiority Dice (which will add 1d10 damage and a status effect on a hit, or be Precision Attack in the event of a miss). And the first 2 attacks have +1d8 from Dream Ambusher. And the first attack with have Eldritch Smite. Whiiiich gives us about ~290 DPR v AC19.

If you started out hidden, you have the opportunity to pre-cast something, like say Hunter's Mark. In which case you get even more damage on every attack.

You also have high DPR on rounds after your Action Surge, simply because of curse+hunter's mark being stacked on top of Sharpshooter / Crossbow Expert shenanigans.

Either way, you can do this 1/short rest, so it's repeatable at least as often as the Berserker/Champion's rage in a standard adventuring day even before you account for the Berserker exhausting themselves. And dramatically more effective.

Here's the math using Anydice: https://anydice.com/program/16435

[Blood of Gaea]

-snip-
That's not DPR, which is relatively averaged damage over several rounds. That's a nova round dumping resources and only doable on the first round of combat.

[LudicSavant]

That's not DPR, which is relatively averaged damage over several rounds.

"DPR" is simply short for "Damage Per Round" and can refer to the average damage dealt per round over any number of rounds... whether it's one, several, or completely resourceless. Like much of language, context matters. Given that I was specifically replying to the OP's post about Frenzy and Action Surge, the context should be clear.

It is not unusual for people to use the term "DPR" to refer to average damage dealt in a round. This is why you will see people refer to both "Nova DPR" and "Sustained DPR." (https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659797-The-highest-sustained-DPR-build-I-could-make&p=7614861&viewfull=1#post7614861) Gamers have been doing this for decades.

DPR doesn't always mean sustained DPR. If it did, people wouldn't bother to clarify when they mean sustained DPR.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well, tank or battlefield control can narrow down the subclasses quite a lot.

Barbarian: Ancestral Guardian.
Bard: Glamour.
Cleric: Basically any subclass with heavy armor, use Spirit Guardians.
Druid: Moon.
Fighter: Cavelier.
Monk: Shadow Monk with Darkness and Silence is about as close to battlefield control as your getting. Honorable mention to high-level Four Elements Monk.
Paladin: Conquest.
Ranger: I honestly don't know. Gloomstaler is generally the best overall Ranger though.
Rogue: Swashbuckler.
Sorcerer: Storm or Shadow I guess? The subclass won't matter too much for control.
Warlock: Hexblade will be your tank, you won't be getting a whole lot of control, but you grab a bit.
Wizard: Abjuration is the best combination of control and tank.

I agree with most of this list. I'd say that Glamour Bards are better in a team with 3+ melee allies, with Lore Bard being better in a team of 4 (the fewer, the better).

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian is best barbarian for having a unique ability. If you don't care about being cool, and just want to be strong, Zealot and Bear Totem are probably more your thing.

The best Cleric is probably Tempest

Moon Druid is the best Druid overall, but each of them has their niche for control. Land>Arctic is a controlling master, but Dreams can heal while it casts spells, and Shepherds can simply dominate the field with numbers.

Cavalier Fighter is a solid melee controller, but I think EK is harder to kill, Battlemaster is the best ranged option, and Samurai for murderhobos.

Shadow Monk is probably one of the strongest Monks just because of how versatile it is. It depends on whether you like ranged combat or not, but I also think that the Open Hand Monk is particularly strong.

Gloomstalker is best Ranger

Rogue probably is best with the Arcane Trickster. All the utility of the Thief, but all of the intelligence of the Inquisitive, while also able to use melee attacks as good as a Swashbuckler. The others are all specialized, and do their specialization a little bit better, but the AT does all of it almost as well.

Sorcerer control? Hard to say. My favorite is probably Shadow, though.

Warlock Control belongs to the Archfey, but the trophy for "strongest" belongs to the Hexblade or Fiend.

Wizard Control probably belongs to the Enchanter, but Abjuration can come close if you consider its wards and Counterspell as control. Strongest Wizard subclass depends on your playstyle, but probably Abjuration or Illusion.

[Blood of Gaea]

I agree with most of this list. I'd say that Glamour Bards are better in a team with 3+ melee allies, with Lore Bard being better in a team of 4 (the fewer, the better).

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian is best barbarian for having a unique ability. If you don't care about being cool, and just want to be strong, Zealot and Bear Totem are probably more your thing.

The best Cleric is probably Tempest

Moon Druid is the best Druid overall, but each of them has their niche for control. Land>Arctic is a controlling master, but Dreams can heal while it casts spells, and Shepherds can simply dominate the field with numbers.

Cavalier Fighter is a solid melee controller, but I think EK is harder to kill, Battlemaster is the best ranged option, and Samurai for murderhobos.

Shadow Monk is probably one of the strongest Monks just because of how versatile it is. It depends on whether you like ranged combat or not, but I also think that the Open Hand Monk is particularly strong.

Gloomstalker is best Ranger

Rogue probably is best with the Arcane Trickster. All the utility of the Thief, but all of the intelligence of the Inquisitive, while also able to use melee attacks as good as a Swashbuckler. The others are all specialized, and do their specialization a little bit better, but the AT does all of it almost as well.

Sorcerer control? Hard to say. My favorite is probably Shadow, though.

Warlock Control belongs to the Archfey, but the trophy for "strongest" belongs to the Hexblade or Fiend.

Wizard Control probably belongs to the Enchanter, but Abjuration can come close if you consider its wards and Counterspell as control. Strongest Wizard subclass depends on your playstyle, but probably Abjuration or Illusion.
I chose Ancestral Guardian and Cavalier Fighter for their ability to draw attacks and in Cavalier's case, lock them down. Having more survability is nice, but I find the former things matter more, your party can always toss you a buff.

Open Hand is very good, but it's "control" is mostly just some kockback and proning, which while good, isn't exactly the most amazing thing in world. I consider Shadow and (high level) Elements Monk to be a bit better, if not overwhelmingly so. I guess if someone really wanted to tank with a Monk, Long Death would have to be the choice.

Arcane Trickster is probably the best overall Rogue, and you can get _some_ control out of their spells, particularly illusions. I just consider a Swashbuckler to be better at drawing enemy attacks as a tank would.