Prestige Classes as substitute for core Fighter

[Mars Ultor]

I'm preparing to run an E6 campaign and I was thinking about what changes I should make to the core Fighter class. Since all the PCs gain additional feats and many class features are gained in the first six levels, Fighters have nothing going for them.

We usually play with only the core classes, although we did try the Book of 9 Swords classes at one point. No one could keep track of their maneuvers and there always seemed to be questions about something, I found it too much trouble overall.

Then it occurred to me that some Prestige classes could be substituted for Fighter. Champion of Corellon Larethian, Dwarven Defender, Cavalier, or Purple Dragon Knight, and others seem like they might work as substitutes, has anyone ever tried running them as regular classes?

I have no experience with non-core Fighter-type classes like Knight, Swashbuckler, and Samurai, but I can't recall ever seeing any positive comments about them. Are any of them worthwhile as a substitute for a basic Fighter?

[DrMotives]

You can always delve into ACFs and variant classes. With fighter, you can sacrifice the level 1 bonus feat as well as medium & heavy armor & shield proficiency to make it a thug instead. Thug means 2 extra skill points, 4 more skills ported over onto the list, and the option to get "urban tracking" with one the remaining 3 fighter bonus feats they'll get in E6. Another option from Dungeonscape is the always popular Dungeon Crasher fighter. Trade away the levels 2 & 6 feats for the ability to squish enemies against solid objects. There are other fighter ACFs and variants in other books too, just remember you can only trade away a specific feature once, and you can still combine many ACFs in one character. Some aren't available in E6, for example the PHB2 ACFs have one at level 6, and the rest at higher levels. And I think Dungeon Crasher's level 6 upgrade is better than Elusive Blow anyway.

[DEMON]

I'm preparing to run an E6 campaign and I was thinking about what changes I should make to the core Fighter class. Since all the PCs gain additional feats and many class features are gained in the first six levels, Fighters have nothing going for them.

Looking at the class as is and concluding it's not suitable for E6 is erroneous. As mentioned above by DrMotives, Fighters in E6 work best when combined with ACFs:

- Dungeon Crasher trades 2 feats, leaving you with your 1st and 4th level feats only and is one of the best Fighter ACFs out there
- Thug is a decent trade for your 1st level feat and can be combined with...
- Sneak Attak Fighter, thus creating a full BAB sneak attacker (works great when multi-classed with Swashbuckler)
- Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter is another good option, although it's mutually exclusive with Thug and you still keep your 1st level feat
- Resolute provides an easy boost to your will save when needed for and can be traded any even-leveled feat (so can be combined with Dungeon Crasher)
- Elusive Attack is a defensive boost than can be obtained for a 6th level feat, but the feat usually gets traded away for a better option (i.e. Dungeon Crasher or Sneak Attack)
- there's a ton more ACFs and sub levels available for Warforged, Dwarfs, Half-Elves, Raptorans...

Really, with the plethora of options, one can build a fighter to suit his style even in the confines of E6 (or especially there).



I have no experience with non-core Fighter-type classes like Knight, Swashbuckler, and Samurai, but I can't recall ever seeing any positive comments about them. Are any of them worthwhile as a substitute for a basic Fighter?

Samurai is eww, but Swashbucklers and Knights are fine as far as Fighter replacements (or supplements) go. Other good options include Duskblade, Hexblade, Psychic Warrior, Totemist and Warblade. I know you said you had trouble with tracking maneuvers, but in E6, Warblades only have 6 maneuvers, 4 of them readied and a simple recovery method, so it should be easy enough to track them.[/QUOTE]

[ExLibrisMortis]

The easiest way to keep track of maneuvers is to print out some maneuver cards (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). Crusaders are as simple as simply drawing a hand at the start of combat, and one card per round after that until your "deck" is empty, at which point you shuffle all cards and draw a new hand.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A potential fighter fix for E6:

+1 feat at 1st level, and another +2 at every additional level, in addition to their current allotment.

Each class level counts as +2 BAB and +2 HD for the purposes of feat prereqs.

Give access to all fighter ACFs without sacrificing anything in return (like skill points). Perhaps in return for feats?

Give fighters 6+Int skill points.

Allow fighters to choose an additional 6 class skills in addition to their normal allotment, with the option of exchanging existing class skills for other skills.

Allow fighters to use their feats for anything they qualify for (and perhaps a number of feats they can take without needing to qualify for, such as Improved Trip).

Come up with a large number of fighter-only feats, such as one to grant [insert stat here] to both hit and damage in melee (Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha), and another set for ranged attacks.

Convert a large number of prereq-feats into things anyone can do, such as noted in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?590679-What-feats-shouldn-t-be-feats).

Give them a maneuver-recovery mechanic in case they take Martial Study.

That sounds like a pretty decent start.

[MisterKaws]

I believe there's an E6-exclusive level 6 feat that lets Fighters count as +8 BAB for the purpose of getting new feats, which lets Fighters get Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus, Circle Master, Pack Feint(Great for Thug Fighters), and other more obscure feats.

[HouseRules]

The Epic 6 also says that DM need to create feats that mimic features of higher level abilities with sufficient feat tax for the Mundane Classes.

ECL 7 = ECL 6 + 5 Feats
ECL 8 = ECL 6 + 10 Feats
ECL 9 = ECL 6 + 15 Feats
ECL 10 = ECL 6 + 20 Feats
ECL 11 = ECL 6 + 30 Feats (Begin +10 Feat per ECL)
ECL 12 = ECL 6 + 40 Feats
ECL 13 = ECL 6 + 50 Feats
ECL 14 = ECL 6 + 60 Feats
ECL 15 = ECL 6 + 80 Feats (Begin +20 Feat per ECL)
ECL 16 = ECL 6 + 100 Feats
ECL 17 = ECL 6 + 120 Feats
ECL 18 = ECL 6 + 140 Feats
ECL 19 = ECL 6 + 180 Feats (Begin +40 Feat per ECL)
ECL 20 = ECL 6 + 220 Feats

Every Group of 4 ECL, double the number of feats per ECL.

[ericgrau]

I believe there's an E6-exclusive level 6 feat that lets Fighters count as +8 BAB for the purpose of getting new feats, which lets Fighters get Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus, Circle Master, Pack Feint(Great for Thug Fighters), and other more obscure feats.

If this is a balance point then it really needs to be an E6-exclusive level 6 fighter class feature or something pointed out in the front of the E6 rules, not a feat buried deep in the giant list of feats. smh

Or is it pointed out in the main rules? EDIT: I skimmed the E6 rules and it seems to be hinted at in the most permissive E6 option. But at least it doesn't seem to be an intentional point of balance. MisterKaws, you're trying to add it as a method of balance I assume?

[DEMON]

If this is a balance point then it really needs to be an E6-exclusive level 6 fighter class feature or something pointed out in the front of the E6 rules, not a feat buried deep in the giant list of feats. smh

Or is it pointed out in the main rules? EDIT: I skimmed the E6 rules and it seems to be hinted at in the most permissive E6 option. But at least it doesn't seem to be an intentional point of balance. MisterKaws, you're trying to add it as a method of balance I assume?

The thing is, if this feat is available in an E6 game, it's a rather nice, Fighter-exlcusive feature that provides the class access to several useful feats. As such, it does affect the class' power level and overall balance.

Though I do agree that it should be added as a Fighter 6 class feature for E6 and clearly stated as such. As it is now (an optional feature), it can't be used for balancing, as it may, or may not be available in a given game.

[MisterKaws]

If this is a balance point then it really needs to be an E6-exclusive level 6 fighter class feature or something pointed out in the front of the E6 rules, not a feat buried deep in the giant list of feats. smh

Or is it pointed out in the main rules? EDIT: I skimmed the E6 rules and it seems to be hinted at in the most permissive E6 option. But at least it doesn't seem to be an intentional point of balance. MisterKaws, you're trying to add it as a method of balance I assume?

It is indeed the only damn way a fighter can keep up, because Wizards made them featureless and E6 compounds it. The fighter situation always rustles my Jimmie.