How can a level 20 Zealot die?

[Quoz]

At level 14, a Zealot gains Rage beyond Death:
While you're raging, having 0 hit points doesn't knock you*unconscious. You still must make death saving throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don't die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points.

At 15, only falling unconscious or voluntarily ending it can end a barbarian's rage. (And if the barbarian is also an elf, good luck - you can't put them to sleep and they have advantage on charms like suggestion that could convince them to stop raging.

And at 20, a barbarian can rage an unlimited number of times per day.

This means that so long as they can take a bonus action every 9 turns to renew their rage, no amount of HP damage can take them down. They could swim through a volcano, dive off a skyscraper, or challenge the tarrasque to a one on one boxing match all without actual risk of real death. A single point of healing before ending rage will keep them alive after any fight.

It's not perfect, things like sleep, calm emotions, or instant death effects can still stop you. But unless enemies have specific ways to counter it seems like a level 20 Zealot is immune to whole sections of the monster manual.

[Greywander]

as they can take a bonus action every 9 turns to renew their rage,
This, right here, is the weak link. If their rage ends, and they're at 0 HP, they can't use a bonus action to renew their rage. This means they can only keep going for a maximum of 1 minute after hitting 0 HP, after which their rage will end naturally and they'll fall unconscious or die before they have a chance to renew it.

[Captain Panda]

Well, it's really hard, no doubt. Power Word: Kill will do it, as will anything that incapacitates once they hit 0 and get three fails. A level 1 wizard with sleep, like you said. Hold person could do it. Banish could do it.

[LudicSavant]

Banishing Smite is an effective finisher for Paladins.

Anything that keeps 'em locked up for a minute will do. Sleep, Banish, or the like.

As will anything that kills them at 0. Disintegrate. Power Word Kill. That sort of thing.

[KillingTime]

Wall of Force or Forcecage will prevent the barbarian attacking so force him to drop rage.

[Greywander]

Actually... can you rage while you're already raging? I assumed you couldn't. Thus, once your rage runs out, if you're still at 0 HP, you drop before you can renew it. But if you can just keep using rage every round, continuously refreshing the timer on it, then yeah, it could be a problem. Worse, carry a goodberry, healing potion, or even just a healer's kit with the Healer feat, and use them before ending your rage and you get to live.

[Renduaz]

A level 1 spellcaster could kill him just by casting Charm Person. It might be with disadvantage and he can reroll ( And must use the new roll ), sure, but as a Zealot Barbarian your wisdom saves might not be too great in the first place. Of course, if there's more than 1 caster with Charm Person, or a slightly higher level caster with a higher DC, a Divination Wizard with 2 Portents, and so forth, you have a very high chance of being taken down almost instantly.

All they have to do is wait a minute while he's charmed.

[noob]

A level 1 spellcaster could kill him just by casting Charm Person. It might be with disadvantage and he can reroll ( And must use the new roll ), sure, but as a Zealot Barbarian your wisdom saves might not be too great in the first place. Of course, if there's more than 1 caster with Charm Person, or a slightly higher level caster with a higher DC, a Divination Wizard with 2 Portents, and so forth, you have a very high chance of being taken down almost instantly.

All they have to do is wait a minute while he's charmed.

Being charmed does not makes someone less enraged: it makes the target consider you as a friend but if the barbarian knows that by dropping its rage it dies then it will keep raging independently of whenever there is opponents around or not: there is still probably a battle unless the entire team of the barbarian is charmed at which point there is no battle anymore unless the team cleric starts sparring with the barbarian to keep it alive.
Calm emotions on the other hand works.

[Renduaz]

Being charmed does not makes someone less enraged: it makes the target consider you as a friend but if the barbarian knows that by dropping its rage it dies then it will keep raging independently of whenever there is opponents around or not: there is still probably a battle unless the entire team of the barbarian is charmed at which point there is no battle anymore unless the team cleric starts sparring with the barbarian to keep it alive.
Calm emotions on the other hand works.

Being charmed makes you regard the caster as a friendly acquaintance, and if there are no other enemies around, then really the only plausible way for the Barbarian to keep raging for the next hour is if it's normal behavior to be raging all day long even in non-dangerous environments like towns or before resting and so on. It does have a reason to keep raging if it knows it might die, but one thing you can do about that, especially as their friendly acquaintance, is heal them by a few points of hp. If they stop raging at any point, prepare some kind of super-heavy attack against them that will bring them to 0hp on the spot. Of course it's different if the Barbarian and the other side have a group, I'm talking about 1v1.

Calm Emotions directed at a group of humanoids with the Barbarian has an incredibly low chance of working - every single humanoid in the group including the barbarian will have to fail their save at the same time in order for the desired effect to be achieved. At any rate, I'm also wondering whether or not the Command spell with the word 'Relax' or 'Calm' could make a Barbarian drop their rage. That being said, the actual emotion of rage might be said to be a flavor text distinguished from the actual game mechanics ( After all, Barbarians can start combat with a squirrel and rage over the stupidest **** if they wanted to ). The question is then whether or not there is a word that can instruct a creature to drop a game mechanic, like spell concentration or a rage.

[ciopo]

Rage :
Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven’t attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then. You can also end your rage on your turn as a bonus action.

All it takes is one round where the Barbarian hasn't taken damage and has been unable to attack a hostile creature. I think there are plenty ways for them to be killed.

I suppose one could swim across lava if the DM allows starting a rage while already raging, but even just... going invisible is enough, or running out of range.

Unless the barbarian decides to attack himself... I guess...

[Renduaz]

Rage :

All it takes is one round where the Barbarian hasn't taken damage and has been unable to attack a hostile creature. I think there are plenty ways for them to be killed.

I suppose one could swim across lava if the DM allows starting a rage while already raging, but even just... going invisible is enough, or running out of range.

Unless the barbarian decides to attack himself... I guess...

That changes with Persistent Rage.

[ciopo]

That changes with Persistent Rage.

... I'll go hide in a corner now

[Rara1212]

We have even gotten JC's input on the "Rage before Rage is over" at least. It's no longer considered a real ruling but still.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/984853901743505408

[DarkKnightJin]

Being charmed makes you regard the caster as a friendly acquaintance, and if there are no other enemies around, then really the only plausible way for the Barbarian to keep raging for the next hour is if it's normal behavior to be raging all day long even in non-dangerous environments like towns or before resting and so on. It does have a reason to keep raging if it knows it might die, but one thing you can do about that, especially as their friendly acquaintance, is heal them by a few points of hp. If they stop raging at any point, prepare some kind of super-heavy attack against them that will bring them to 0hp on the spot. Of course it's different if the Barbarian and the other side have a group, I'm talking about 1v1.

Calm Emotions directed at a group of humanoids with the Barbarian has an incredibly low chance of working - every single humanoid in the group including the barbarian will have to fail their save at the same time in order for the desired effect to be achieved. At any rate, I'm also wondering whether or not the Command spell with the word 'Relax' or 'Calm' could make a Barbarian drop their rage. That being said, the actual emotion of rage might be said to be a flavor text distinguished from the actual game mechanics ( After all, Barbarians can start combat with a squirrel and rage over the stupidest **** if they wanted to ). The question is then whether or not there is a word that can instruct a creature to drop a game mechanic, like spell concentration or a rage.

Considering it's (probably) a spent resource and a failed save, I'd rule that a Command to 'Relax' or 'Calm' would work on a Raging Barbarian.
As long as the party is aware that enemies can use this *against* the party as well. Turnabout is fair play.

[darknite]

Barbarian = suck at Charisma Saves. Plane Shift them to one of many harmful inner planes where they will burn, drown or be ground to a pulp.

[Brookshw]

This, right here, is the weak link. If their rage ends, and they're at 0 HP, they can't use a bonus action to renew their rage. This means they can only keep going for a maximum of 1 minute after hitting 0 HP, after which their rage will end naturally and they'll fall unconscious or die before they have a chance to renew it.

I'm fairly new to this edition so pardon what might be a dumb question, but are you saying they can't use a bonus action at all (and if so, why is that?), or that they simply can't use it to renew the rage?

[Dungeon-noob]

I'm fairly new to this edition so pardon what might be a dumb question, but are you saying they can't use a bonus action at all (and if so, why is that?), or that they simply can't use it to renew the rage?
His point is that you'll become incapacitated as soon as you lose rage, and once you are incapacitated, you can't take actions or bonus actions, hence being unable to put up another rage. Meaning you'd die as soon as your rage does.

[Chronos]

If their rage ends and they're at 0 HP, they'd fall unconscious, and you can't take any actions while unconscious.

Before their rage ends, they can take actions, but it's at least debatable whether one of those actions can be to rage again while they're already raging.

Personally, I'd allow it. Level 20 characters are supposed to be overpowered, after all, and there are still plenty of ways to work around it.

[LudicSavant]

JC says that you can use a bonus action to enter a rage when you're already raging. (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/984853901743505408?lang=en)

My question would have been: Does it count as "your rage ending" when you start up a new rage, or does it simply count as the rage's duration being extended? That would matter for the precise wording of Rage Beyond Death.

[Brookshw]

His point is that you'll become incapacitated as soon as you lose rage, and once you are incapacitated, you can't take actions or bonus actions, hence being unable to put up another rage. Meaning you'd die as soon as your rage does.

Great and thank you, wasn't sure if I was missing some other rule that prohibited a bonus action.

[Bloodcloud]

JC says that you can use a bonus action to enter a rage when you're already raging. (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/984853901743505408?lang=en)

My question would have been: Does it count as "your rage ending" when you start up a new rage, or does it simply count as the rage's duration being extended? That would matter for the precise wording of Rage Beyond Death.

Bruce Banner is dead. Now there is just Hulk. And Hulk is ANGRY!!!!

Seriously, Zelaot renewing rage to not die infinitely is not really all that different from the onion moon druid, infinitely wildshaping into more thp. Also, narratively, I like it.

[LudicSavant]

Bruce Banner is dead. Now there is just Hulk. And Hulk is ANGRY!!!! :smallbiggrin:


Seriously, Zelaot renewing rage to not die infinitely is not really all that different from the onion moon druid, infinitely wildshaping into more thp.

Agreed.

[Burley]

Also, if you read this: Dropping to 0 hit points (https://5thsrd.org/combat/damage_and_healing/#dropping-to-0-hit-points)

You'll see that, when you're at 0, if you take ANY damage, you immediately get a failed death saving throw. So, okay, even if you're at 0 HP and conscious forever, a single casting of magic missile will deal damage at least 3 times, and you'll be dead.

[Squire Doodad]

At level 14, a Zealot gains Rage beyond Death:
While you're raging, having 0 hit points doesn't knock you*unconscious. You still must make death saving throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don't die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points.

At 15, only falling unconscious or voluntarily ending it can end a barbarian's rage. (And if the barbarian is also an elf, good luck - you can't put them to sleep and they have advantage on charms like suggestion that could convince them to stop raging.

And at 20, a barbarian can rage an unlimited number of times per day.

This means that so long as they can take a bonus action every 9 turns to renew their rage, no amount of HP damage can take them down. They could swim through a volcano, dive off a skyscraper, or challenge the tarrasque to a one on one boxing match all without actual risk of real death. A single point of healing before ending rage will keep them alive after any fight.

It's not perfect, things like sleep, calm emotions, or instant death effects can still stop you. But unless enemies have specific ways to counter it seems like a level 20 Zealot is immune to whole sections of the monster manual.

Manifest a Rockslide with a high chance of incapacitating the target; heat-wave based ability to follow it up. Dead Zealot.

[Dalebert]

You'll see that, when you're at 0, if you take ANY damage, you immediately get a failed death saving throw. So, okay, even if you're at 0 HP and conscious forever, a single casting of magic missile will deal damage at least 3 times, and you'll be dead.

Except that zealots also stay conscious and functional after three failed death saves as long as they're still raging, and can still be stabilized and/or healed during their rage to avoid dying.

[Rukelnikov]

JC says that you can use a bonus action to enter a rage when you're already raging. (https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/984853901743505408?lang=en)

My question would have been: Does it count as "your rage ending" when you start up a new rage, or does it simply count as the rage's duration being extended? That would matter for the precise wording of Rage Beyond Death.

You can only benefit from 1 instance of any given feature of the game, so the second rage would supersede the first one, you could think of it as extending the duration, but actually the first rage ends as the second one takes place, A rage has ended, but it happened while you were still raging, so at no point were you not raging.

[RulesJD]

It's been mentioned before but any effect that Incapacitates the Zealot means it can't rerage and it dies. Also, any spell/ability that causes an effect at 0hp, the Zealot dies. Lastly, causing enough damage that the total taken exceeds the Barbarians maximum HP (they are at 0) would cause instant-death, though that would be difficult.

Hold Person/Monster
Banishment
Polymorph
Power Word Stun
Power Word Kill
Disintegrate
etc

[Sigreid]

The sleep spell after they've run out of HP should be good. The bigger challenge might be getting him to stay dead.

[sithlordnergal]

A slightly different method, but Polymorph could work too. Your current stats are replaced with the beast stats, including class stats. You get Polymorphed into a mouse, you lose your class features, which includes Rage, the caster drops the spell, and boom. You are at 0 hp without Rage.

[Rukelnikov]

A slightly different method, but Polymorph could work too. Your current stats are replaced with the beast stats, including class stats. You get Polymorphed into a mouse, you lose your class features, which includes Rage, the caster drops the spell, and boom. You are at 0 hp without Rage.

IIRC Polymorphed can't be used on someone at 0 hp, also take into account, that effects already present are not lifted by being polymorphed, so the current rage would remain active.

[Dalebert]

IIRC Polymorphed can't be used on someone at 0 hp, also take into account, that effects already present are not lifted by being polymorphed, so the current rage would remain active.

Exactly. You lose the ability to enter a rage when polymorphed but you're already enraged and it would continue as long as you meet the conditions.

[DrLoveMonkey]

I’ve dealt with this as a DM before and I have to say I really didn’t like it. There’s ways to kill a zealot Barbarian, for sure, 100%, but there’s a LOT of high level monsters out there that just don’t have access to those ways, plenty of them are beyond CR20 even. In cases like that the whole party just retreated from battle because they were only risking themselves and then we skipped rolling out the combat because the Barbarian couldn’t lose.

I got creative, of course, and had plenty of battles that could theoretically kill him where the rest of the party needed to help out, but any time there wasn’t an enemy wizard basically there was no point in setting up the map or rolling the dice.

[Segev]

I’ve dealt with this as a DM before and I have to say I really didn’t like it. There’s ways to kill a zealot Barbarian, for sure, 100%, but there’s a LOT of high level monsters out there that just don’t have access to those ways, plenty of them are beyond CR20 even. In cases like that the whole party just retreated from battle because they were only risking themselves and then we skipped rolling out the combat because the Barbarian couldn’t lose.

I got creative, of course, and had plenty of battles that could theoretically kill him where the rest of the party needed to help out, but any time there wasn’t an enemy wizard basically there was no point in setting up the map or rolling the dice.

I take it hte enemies were too stupid to retreat and come back, or to go after the other PCs rather than staying to engage the unkillable Zealot?

[RulesJD]

I’ve dealt with this as a DM before and I have to say I really didn’t like it. There’s ways to kill a zealot Barbarian, for sure, 100%, but there’s a LOT of high level monsters out there that just don’t have access to those ways, plenty of them are beyond CR20 even. In cases like that the whole party just retreated from battle because they were only risking themselves and then we skipped rolling out the combat because the Barbarian couldn’t lose.

I got creative, of course, and had plenty of battles that could theoretically kill him where the rest of the party needed to help out, but any time there wasn’t an enemy wizard basically there was no point in setting up the map or rolling the dice.

For other DMs out there, just look for creatures with Innate casting, or different abilities that cause the Unconscious condition. Hag's with Eye Bite. Beholder Sleep Ray. Brass Dragon, Drow Poison, etc.

[DrLoveMonkey]

I take it hte enemies were too stupid to retreat and come back, or to go after the other PCs rather than staying to engage the unkillable Zealot?

Some were, the iron golems, the Tarrasque, purple worm.

Others didn’t really get much of an opportunity, when the party either retreats due to teleportation or just doesn’t even enter the fight in the first place. It takes quite a while before you realize that the thing you’re fighting can’t be killed, especially once it looks like they’re just barely on their last legs and just one more hit should do it. Or when the goal of the encounter isn’t just an all out brawl, like disrupting a summoning ritual or something, where retreat would pretty much be a straight loss anyway.

Not to mention even if they did retreat and come back, so what? It’s not like the Barbarian is any less invulnerable later in the day.

And like I said, it didn’t ruin every encounter forever, the Kraken they fought had to retreat, but then it came back at night with an army during a storm and dragged the Barbarian down into the deeps with it. It didn’t win but that time at least it had a chance to keep him down there until he suffocated. What it did do though was take a huge swath of cool creatures that would be fun to fight and fun to run and cut them out of my list of possible encounters.

[LudicSavant]

You can only benefit from 1 instance of any given feature of the game, so the second rage would supersede the first one, you could think of it as extending the duration, but actually the first rage ends as the second one takes place, A rage has ended, but it happened while you were still raging, so at no point were you not raging.

That's about what I figured.

The relevant line for interpretation there would be:

However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don't die until your rage ends

[SirVladamir]

Other than the name, what in the spell description makes one think that Calm Emotions can be used to end someone's rage?

It worked in 3.5 but 5e the spell has a totally different description.

[GlenSmash!]

If I'm DMing for a table of level 20 characters, I'm long past the point where I would have challenges that depend on one side bringing the other side to 0 HP.

There wouldn't even need to be a Zealot or Moon druid in the party or even a wished/simulacrum wizard. Any 20th level party is just too well equipped for that mundane of a challenge.

At that point I'd have different stakes.

The city that they become the defenders of could be at risk of being destroyed, the barbarian tribe that the Zealot has become chief of could succumb to demonic corruption. Or maybe time is just running out for the world if the macguffins are not gathered from their various planes of existence in time.

Heck I'd start with more of those types of scenarios back at level 11.

[Man_Over_Game]

HAH!

I just had an inkling of a suspicion of the dumbest oversight anyone's ever made.

Just take a moment and read this excerpt, and tell me what you see:

When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

So...how do you kill a raging zealot? By holding back your punch.

[DMThac0]

When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

Sometimes death is not the answer, sometimes it's the result!

[LudicSavant]

HAH!

I just had an inkling of a suspicion of the dumbest oversight anyone's ever made.

Just take a moment and read this excerpt, and tell me what you see:

When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

Rage Beyond Death prevents you from being knocked out.

While you 're raging, having 0 hit points doesn't knock you unconscious.

[Segev]

HAH!

I just had an inkling of a suspicion of the dumbest oversight anyone's ever made.

Just take a moment and read this excerpt, and tell me what you see:

When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

So...how do you kill a raging zealot? By holding back your punch.

No, no, my friend. What you've found here is 5e's drown healing for the frenzied berserker--er, zealot: When the fight is over, and the Zealot would have to keep raging or die, you whollop him and decide it's not going to kill him as you deal the damage, reducing him to 0 hp as he lets his rage end...and he stabilizes.

[Man_Over_Game]

Rage Beyond Death prevents you from being knocked out.

That's actually a good point, but I think it'd require a DM's interpretation.

Hitting 0 HP is enough of a reason to be unconscious as a general rule.

Zealot counters this, changing the general rule of going unconscious from 0 HP to ignore the Unconscious part (although most other factors of hitting 0 HP still apply).

Now, I say that the Knocking a Creature Out rules treats the 0 HP as part of a special trigger. Otherwise, it wouldn't need to state that the creature is Unconscious, it'd only have to say the creature was Stable. Rather, it says "Ignore the general rule, the creature is now Unconscious and Stable".

So while the Zealot adds special changes to the general rule, the Knocking a Creature Out rules says the general rule doesn't apply in the first place. But whether or not that's true is really up in the air.

Does the KO rules knock a creature unconscious because that's the general rule of reducing a creature to 0 HP, or does it knock a creature unconscious because it's a standalone effect? Dealer's choice, I guess.

[FrancisBean]

EDIT: I've now found out about the DMG erratum for pg 252. Which means that all of this is wrong because features of same name don't ever stack, and it tells me which printing of the DMG I have.


You can only benefit from 1 instance of any given feature of the game, so the second rage would supersede the first one, you could think of it as extending the duration, but actually the first rage ends as the second one takes place, A rage has ended, but it happened while you were still raging, so at no point were you not raging.

I just got a big surprise while carefully reading and parsing the rules, and I'd like a double-check to make sure I haven't just missed a stray paragraph somewhere. This is, well, weird. (Man_Over_Game, I hope you're reading this.)

I agree that non-stacking is a basic design premise of 5e, and it applies to a whole host of different features and abilities. I was even about to make the following ultra-pedantic correction, and was looking up the citations to back it up.

You can only benefit from one instance at a time. You can absolutely have multiple instances running at once. In other words, the first rage doesn't end because of the second rage. You just can't stack the effects. And if for some bizarre reason only the second rage ended, and it was before the first one ran out, the first one continues to run. (I can't think of anything other than voluntarily dropping a rage which wouldn't drop both, so it's 99.9% irrelevant.) That's much more important with spells, where you could have a longer-but-weaker effect masked under a shorter-but-strong effect.

At least, that's the 5e design principle as I see it. But here's the really odd thing: this is something which they make explicit with spells, where it matters most (PHB pg 205); but I can't find any citation which says it applies by default to other abilities. In fact, non-spells get specific call-outs of their own, such as proficiency bonus being only added once (PHB pg 12), armor class computation (PHB pg 14), Extra Attack (PHB pg 164), Advantage and Disadvantage (PHB 173), Resistance and Vulnerability (PHB pg 197), etc.

Contrariwise, there are other feature boosts which do stack, and this is indicated simply by not telling us that they don't. E.g., the many various speed boosts from Wood Elf, the Mobile feat, Monk class features, Barbarian class feature, and so forth all stack. In other words, the default situation seems to be that stacking happens unless it's explicitly stated otherwise. That's how "Specific beats General" should be interpreted here.

They didn't say that about Rage. Presumably because they never considered that someone would want to do that, or I suspect they would have. Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like RAW, Rage really does stack. But here's the ironic part of all of this: almost none of the benefits of rage stack, so it's sort of irrelevant. I just walked through all of the Rage benefits from the PHB here:

Advantage on strength checks doesn't stack because Advantage doesn't stack;
Resistance doesn't stack;
The precise phrasing of the damage bonus doesn't let it stack: it just says you get the damage bonus from the table "while raging," so multiple rages don't help with that;
Relentless Rage is phrased the same way: you get the benefit "while raging;"
Berserker's Frenzy is based on Bonus Actions, so action economy prevents exploitative stacking;
Berserker's Mindless Rage is an immunity phrased as "while raging," so it doesn't stack and wouldn't change anything if it could;
Totem, L3: Resistance and advantage and disadvantage don't stack;
Totem, L6: Eagle and Wolf are both "you get this ability," not "you add bonus," so stacking is irrelevant. But for Bear, we finally have the first thing which would actually stack: carrying capacity; and
Totel, L14: again, nothing here stacks.


In other words, if there's nothing to stop Rage from stacking, the only benefit for PHB Barbarians is that Barbearians can boost their carrying capacity through the roof. And the 1-minute duration limitation caps it, so you can't build up an unbounded carrying capacity. I've never had to check on whether 5e does the additive "doubling" like 3.5, so I don't know whether the carrying capacity boost is linear or exponential. Anybody know offhand?

[LudicSavant]

That's actually a good point, but I think it'd require a DM's interpretation.

Hitting 0 HP is enough of a reason to be unconscious as a general rule. The rule is that when you hit 0 hit points from a melee attack, the attacker decides whether the result is that you are knocked unconscious and stable, or knocked unconscious and dying. Both are cases of being knocked unconscious as a result of being reduced to 0 hit points.

The rule for Rage Beyond Death is that you do not get knocked unconscious as a result of hitting 0 hit points.

I don't see how this is a case of the devs making "the dumbest oversight anyone's ever made."

[Man_Over_Game]

The rule is that when you hit 0 hit points from a melee attack, the attacker decides whether the result is that you are knocked unconscious and stable, or knocked unconscious and dying.

The rule for Rage Beyond Death is that you do not get knocked unconscious as a result of hitting 0 hit points.

The problem with that reasoning is, then, any trigger that relies on you hitting 0 HP doesn't knock you unconscious.

For example, Disintegrate. I can still Disintegrate you, but you'd still be conscious afterwards.

I'm saying that Disintegrating a target naturally implies that the creature MUST fall unconscious, as part of the series of events. I'm saying KO rules could fall into the same category.

[LudicSavant]

The problem with that reasoning is, then, any trigger that relies on you hitting 0 HP doesn't knock you unconscious.

This, too, is an oversight on your part.

The rule is that when you drop to 0 hit points, you are knocked unconscious and dying. If you are dropped to 0 hit points by a melee attack, the attacker chooses whether you are knocked unconscious and dying or knocked unconscious and stable. In all of these cases, you are falling unconscious as a result of being dropped to 0 hit points.

In the case of Disintegrate, if you are left at 0 hit points you are simply dead.

It's not that complicated.

[Rukelnikov]

The problem with that reasoning is, then, any trigger that relies on you hitting 0 HP doesn't knock you unconscious.

For example, Disintegrate. I can still Disintegrate you, but you'd still be conscious afterwards.

I'm saying that Disintegrating a target naturally implies that the creature MUST fall unconscious, as part of the series of events. I'm saying KO rules could fall into the same category.

You need to be "alive" (in dnd terms) in order to have a consciousness, and you need consciousness to be able to be unconscious. No disintegrated character falls unconscious ever, because they instead die.

[sithlordnergal]

IIRC Polymorphed can't be used on someone at 0 hp, also take into account, that effects already present are not lifted by being polymorphed, so the current rage would remain active.

Ohh, I had not spotted the "1 hp" requirement. That said, I'd say rage would be lifted if you were polymorphed. It's not a magical effect or a condition, its just a class ability which disappears.

[Zetakya]

In other words, if there's nothing to stop Rage from stacking, the only benefit for PHB Barbarians is that Barbearians can boost their carrying capacity through the roof. And the 1-minute duration limitation caps it, so you can't build up an unbounded carrying capacity. I've never had to check on whether 5e does the additive "doubling" like 3.5, so I don't know whether the carrying capacity boost is linear or exponential. Anybody know offhand?

Atlas was a 20th level Titan Barbarian; now it all makes sense!

[Dalebert]

If I'm DMing for a table of level 20 characters, I'm long past the point where I would have challenges that depend on one side bringing the other side to 0 HP.

There wouldn't even need to be a Zealot or Moon druid in the party or even a wished/simulacrum wizard. Any 20th level party is just too well equipped for that mundane of a challenge.

At that point I'd have different stakes.


OMG, yes! I've been trying to say this! Tier 4 games are like Superman comics as opposed to Spider-man comics. The hero is no longer in danger of dying himself. Now it has to become about other stakes that the hero cares about. In the case of Superman, his greatest weakness is that he cares about fragile humans. The villains realize this in Superman 2 and use it against him. Superman is wrecked if he fails to save even one human!

In tier 4, you have to raise the stakes. If the heros fail, some horrible evil is unleashed upon the world. Whatever. Point is, it can't just be "survive this threat" because tier 4 characters don't die. It has to be "succeed because failure will be something that sucks" and the "something that sucks" has to be tailored to the PCs .

[NatureKing]

Can't take a Bonus Action if you're unable to take an action. Anything that causes the Barbarian to be Incapacitated.

[Theodoxus]

Sphere of Annihilation. 'Nuff said.

I'm with Dalebert though. And to add, that this obsession with trying to kill a level 20 character (really, of any ilk) is running smack into the "DM is out to get me, personally." And that's just not fun for the player.

Besides, with the Zealot's no-cost resurrection, by 20th the party cleric will have access to True Resurrection, or the party Wizard to Wish... both will bring back the Zealot, even post disintegration, all for the low low cost of time. Which the party would have in spades.

Outside of the player being bored, there is no reason a level 20 Zealot will ever "die".

[CorporateSlave]

If I'm DMing for a table of level 20 characters, I'm long past the point where I would have challenges that depend on one side bringing the other side to 0 HP.

There wouldn't even need to be a Zealot or Moon druid in the party or even a wished/simulacrum wizard. Any 20th level party is just too well equipped for that mundane of a challenge.

At that point I'd have different stakes.

The city that they become the defenders of could be at risk of being destroyed, the barbarian tribe that the Zealot has become chief of could succumb to demonic corruption. Or maybe time is just running out for the world if the macguffins are not gathered from their various planes of existence in time.

Heck I'd start with more of those types of scenarios back at level 11.

I think this is the key point - level 20 characters are often incredibly powerful, but at that tier of play brute force and unkillability may not really mean much, per the PHB, regarding Fourth Tier (Levels 17-20): "The fate of the world or even the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures."

Worrying about the white room near-invincibility of a class is missing the point - sure, he can toe-to-toe with the Tarrasque and wear it down eventually, but will that save the capital city of the kingdom from being destroyed in the process?
Will it stop the final seal from being broken and the planes rendered asunder?
Will it stop the arcane ritual that threatens to slay every living being and reanimate them as an unstoppable demonic army?

Well, maybe, sure. But it's like the two friends who are attacked by a lion, and one starts running. The other, resigned, yells out, "Are you crazy? You can't outrun a lion!" And the runner looks back and yells, "I don't have to outrun the lion!" First Tier players are worried mostly about staying alive - Fourth Tier are more worried about things bigger than themselves, and finding ways to use their neigh-invincibility to save the world.

[Chronos]

Plus, by the time that you're at 20th level, you should have personal enemies. A lot of them. Many of those enemies will have some knowledge of the party's capabilities, and some ability to keep track of them. If the barbarian is soloing the Tarrasque, someone's going to notice that, and then they're going to notice that the barbarian is in a state where a single first-level spell will kill him. And even if the Tarrasque itself doesn't have access to first-level spells, at least one of those enemies watching will.

Like I said before: 20th-level characters are supposed to be overpowered.