OOTS #1168 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Resileaf]

Bureaucracy wins once again.

[KishouTheBadger]

Lol, the dwarves are so calm to the fact that half their members are vampirized but foolish enough to think they can work together to find out the strange noises.

I almost pity the fools, but they are treading on "too dumb to live" territory here.

[hroþila]

That was funny.

Anyway, it seems there's only 14 clan representatives visible, plus the cleric of Dvalin, plus possibly one more representative that should fit in that table but that didn't appear on panel. And obviously no Thundershields. It would seem that, after all, only the most prominent clans (whether currently or at the time the council was established) get a seat. Yay!

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the Thundershields got a seat in the next few comics. As in, "occupy their seat", not "get the right to seat at the council."

[bibliophile20]

I second the "too dumb to live" comment; if a majority of the chamber is under a Dominate effect, that should send a pretty massive red flag!

[RyanW1019]

Wow. Don't dwarves get a racial Wisdom bonus or something? And isn't Wisdom supposed to increase as you age?

Edit: I have been informed that they do not.

[Fyraltari]

That’s way too accurate for my liking... :smallfrown:

[FFKonoko]

Their reaction would have been fine...if only it hadn't agreed with the "AFTER todays vote" part.
Well, can't have there NOT be any problem going on, for the dwarves to burst in and fix.

[hamishspence]

Wow. Don't dwarves get a racial Wisdom bonus or something?



No racial Wis bonus for dwarves:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves

[Mechalobster]

I second the "too dumb to live" comment; if a majority of the chamber is under a Dominate effect, that should send a pretty massive red flag!

That is a pretty serious accusation. One that will need weeks of investigation, which will occur after they vote about how Dvalin should vote to end the world.

The system works!

[Psyren]

"Let's have the vote first, abide by the result, and then look into whether the vote could have been manipulated by outside forces" is depressingly on the nose.

[Fyraltari]

Wow. Don't dwarves get a racial Wisdom bonus or something? And isn't Wisdom supposed to increase as you age?

Ah but these are politicians, you need a negative wisdom to join.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the Thundershields got a seat in the next few comics. As in, "occupy their seat", not "get the right to seat at the council."

Nah, that can't happen.

They're all standing.


"Let's have the vote first, abide by the result, and then look into whether the vote could have been manipulated by outside forces" is depressingly on the nose.

One can't help but get the feeling Rich is trying to get us all banned by dangling current politics in front of our noses.

But I will be strong and resist the discussion of the obvious parallels.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

This council is meeting around the remains of one of their oldest and most powerful ennemies. That's pretty badass. And mean-spirited.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

The runes at the top of the 3rd panel say "follow the law". That's my guess.

[Peelee]

That’s way too accurate for my liking... :smallfrown:

Mr. Bean managed to get international, multicultural appeal due to the fact that he effectively acted like a small child, which is a fairly universal characteristic.

I believe the Giant tapped into a second universal characteristic, ineffective bureaucracy.:smalltongue:

[The Pilgrim]

Sounds reasonable.

Rich has already stablished that the clan elders don't want to be there, they think this is all a waste of time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html). Sounds reasonable they want to end the meeting as soon as possible and get back to their caves. They do not realize that Dvalin is going to ask an important question and not a trivial issue.

[Cicciograna]

Interesting to note the curative effect on Roy of the Legacy Weapon. First panel, he looks bruised and hurt; second panel, he's no wound.

Thought that would affect him only when he himself is surrounded by the green aura, but apparently the fast healing (regeneration?) is active even just holding the sword (and the sword is manifesting the aura, panel 1).

[Fyraltari]

Mr. Bean managed to get international, multicultural appeal due to the fact that he effectively acted like a small child, which is a fairly universal characteristic.

I believe the Giant tapped into a second universal characteristic, ineffective bureaucracy.:smalltongue:
Heh, could be worse. It could be effective bureaucracies that are universal.

[Peelee]

Heh, could be worse. It could be effective bureaucracies that are universal.

Don't give me nightmares.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do like that the priest of Dvalin is less than pleased about this. I'm guessing they have no say in the proceedings beyond the channeling.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

HA-HA-HA-HA!:smallbiggrin: Depressingly accurate. It's kinda a cop-out, but, then, this is probably just the result of Rich writing himself into a corner vis-a-vis Domination being visible to begin with.

[Lvl45DM!]

I am laughing so hard at this.
"That seems like a fine compromise!" is such an amazing demonstration of the Golden Mean fallacy at work, but the cherry on this glorious comedy sundae is the dwarf who is looking forward to being proven wrong.
What a champion

[D.One]

Dumb Bureaucracy: Hel's most trusted ally.

[Dungeon-noob]

I'm going to be unreasonably optimistic and say that the council's attitude makes perfect sense. Obviously, the council has worked so well over the last centuries, succesfully resolved so many disputes, and generally functioned well within its rules of respect and compromise that they are unable to see how this could possibly go wrong.

For historic evidence, i present the old roman republic, among others, which functioned very well within an honor and goodwill system, until the honor and goodwill were taken out of the equasion.

[knag]

One can't help but get the feeling Rich is trying to get us all banned by dangling current politics in front of our noses.

Never have I had a greater urge to break the forum rules. I had actually written a post, but your forbearance fortified my discretion.

[warmachine]

This Brit is finding this too similar to the current EU referendum, so I can't laugh. Which is a problem because I have to keep on laughing because I daren't start crying.

[Kantaki]

Murphy, Roy, Murphy.
Seriously, have you learned nothing during your time as a adventurer?
You are travelling with a bard for Thor's sake!

[Peelee]

HA-HA-HA-HA!:smallbiggrin: Depressingly accurate. It's kinda a cop-out, but, then, this is probably just the result of Rich writing himself into a corner vis-a-vis Domination being visible to begin with.

:smallconfused:

Imean, he's had years to plan things out and fine-tune and change. I'd be surprised if the Domination plan not having any outs just kind of snuck up on him, and instead, this was always how it was going to work out. Even you call it out as "depressingly accurate," so it seems like the route of "keep the train rolling and use a bureaucracy joke" was a pretty good call.

[Fyraltari]

I'm going to be unreasonably optimistic and say that the council's attitude makes perfect sense. Obviously, the council has worked so well over the last centuries, succesfully resolved so many disputes, and generally functioned well within its rules of respect and compromise that they are unable to see how this could possibly go wrong.
They can see the vampire, they can see the swirling in the other people's eyes and they can see the vampire leaning in to feed the Councilwoman's lines to her yet they treat "they're being dominated" as something that has yet to be demonstrated. Under no circumstances does that attitude makes sense.


For historic evidence, i present the old roman republic, among others, which functioned very well within an honor and goodwill system, until the honor and goodwill were taken out of the equasion.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/1a59e8d531461e2e47c64af27fb4d66e/tenor.gif?itemid=9628866

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm going to be unreasonably optimistic and say that the council's attitude makes perfect sense. Obviously, the council has worked so well over the last centuries, succesfully resolved so many disputes, and generally functioned well within its rules of respect and compromise that they are unable to see how this could possibly go wrong.

In fact, I'd say the comic has pretty much established that this is a completely powerless entity and the reason they have this attitude is that nothing momentous has been asked of them in generations.


For historic evidence, i present the old roman republic, among others, which functioned very well within an honor and goodwill system, until the honor and goodwill were taken out of the equasion.

I recommend the History of Rome podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-rome/id261654474) to find a clear demonstration of how I could not disagree more with the above statement.

Also, it seem I need to extend my declaration of fortitude in the face of political discussion to encompass ancient politics as well.


Never have I had a greater urge to break the forum rules. I had actually written a post, but your forbearance fortified my discretion.

I am genuinely pleased to hear that.

Grey Wolf

[SodaQueen]

"Let's have the vote first, abide by the result, and then look into whether the vote could have been manipulated by outside forces" is depressingly on the nose.I was going to say that this situation was starting to seem a little too implausible...then I read this comment.

[hroþila]

Nah, that can't happen.

They're all standing.
What?!?!? That's preposterous, they're clearly-

*checks the comic*

Huh. Dwarves sure are short, that must have been what fooled me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was going to say that this situation was starting to seem a little too implausible...then I read this comment.


The problem with fiction, it has to be plausible. That's not true with non-fiction.




What?!?!? That's preposterous, they're clearly-

*checks the comic*

Huh. Dwarves sure are short, that must have been what fooled me.

If it makes you feel better, I had to go check too.

Grey Wolf

[tufttugger]

"Let's have the vote first, abide by the result, and then look into whether the vote could have been manipulated by outside forces" is depressingly on the nose.
This feels depressingly too close to how our own political system works.

[woweedd]

:smallconfused:

Imean, he's had years to plan things out and fine-tune and change. I'd be surprised if the Domination plan not having any outs just kind of snuck up on him, and instead, this was always how it was going to work out. Even you call it out as "depressingly accurate," so it seems like the route of "keep the train rolling and use a bureaucracy joke" was a pretty good call.
I mean, Rich has mentioned doing that before, with this specific subject: He wrote the swirly eyes line as a joke back during the Starmetal Quest, and has had to write around it afterwards. Not in big ways, but, for instance, this is the reason Roy is conveniently facing the other direction when Durkon* dominated that Gnome priest.

[tufttugger]

I find it fitting that the table they sit around is likely fashioned from the greatest victory in the history of dwarven society in combating their greatest mortal enemy... trees.

[Skull the Troll]

New comic is up.

Let the forum infractions for bringing up real world politics flow!!!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, Rich has mentioned doing that before, with this specific subject: He wrote the swirly eyes line as a joke back during the Starmetal Quest, and has had to write around it afterwards. Not in big ways, but, for instance, this is the reason Roy is conveniently facing the other direction when Durkon* dominated that Gnome priest.

Certainly. But so far, there has been no reason for only half+1 of the council to be dominated, other than the joke. Rich could have had them all dominated. Now, it's possible he needs a few undominated ones down the line, so I won't say there isn't a reason, but as of right now, he seems to be using the visibility of the domination as a conduit for jokes, more than an issue to lampshade.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

I find it fitting that the table they sit around is likely fashioned from the greatest victory in the history of dwarven society in combating their greatest mortal enemy... trees.

Maybe that's why Dvalin was the first king. He slew this mighty 15-year old tree by himself.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

They can see the vampire, they can see the swirling in the other people's eyes and they can see the vampire leaning in to feed the Councilwoman's lines to her yet they treat "they're being dominated" as something that has yet to be demonstrated. Under no circumstances does that make sense

Advisors are apparently allowed under Dwarf Robert's rules of order.

[Dungeon-noob]

They can see the vampire, they can see the swirling in the other people's eyes and they can see the vampire leaning in to feed the Councilwoman's lines to her yet they treat "they're being dominated" as something that has yet to be demonstrated. Under no circumstances does that attitude makes sense.


https://media1.tenor.com/images/1a59e8d531461e2e47c64af27fb4d66e/tenor.gif?itemid=9628866
What part of UNREASONABLY optimistic was unclear to you?

You know what, nvm, i'll stop trying to be positive or contribute to conversations around here. Lurk mode ON.

[woweedd]

I find it fitting that the table they sit around is likely fashioned from the greatest victory in the history of dwarven society in combating their greatest mortal enemy... trees.
...I just relaized that's an entire freaking tree ring. Heh. You know, now i'm picturing a Round Table, Knights of style, except they kept adding new members, like some sorta superhero team, but had to keep it round, so they just adding new concentric rings, until it's the size of a whale.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, gotta love it when both sides of the council are able to cooperate on such a divisive issue.

Also, I’m sure the reaction to when the topic of the vote is announced will be quite interesting.

[woweedd]

Certainly. But so far, there has been no reason for only half+1 of the council to be dominated, other than the joke. Rich could have had them all dominated. Now, it's possible he needs a few undominated ones down the line, so I won't say there isn't a reason, but as of right now, he seems to be using the visibility of the domination as a conduit for jokes, more than an issue to lampshade.

Grey Wolf
Fair point. Also, while we're on the subject: Can we all appreciate that one Dwarf saying he'll welcome being proven wrong? He's the least accurate part of this: What real-world politician would do that? Truly, he is an inspiration to us all.:smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

What part of UNREASONABLY optimistic was unclear to you?

None, I completely agree that that was completely unreasonable.

[The MunchKING]

One can't help but get the feeling Rich is trying to get us all banned by dangling current politics in front of our noses.

But I will be strong and resist the discussion of the obvious parallels.

Grey Wolf

I was just going to say "bureaucracy in general" for some kind of "Throughout history bureaucracy has ALWAYS been stupid" thing. *Shrug*

[Peelee]

i'll stop trying to be positive or contribute to conversations around here. Lurk mode ON.

Noooooooooooo! I like unreasonable optimism and optimistic contributions!

[Sky_Schemer]

Wow. Don't dwarves get a racial Wisdom bonus or something? And isn't Wisdom supposed to increase as you age?

Participating in government imposes massive Wisdom penalties.

[Lvl45DM!]

Fair point. Also, while we're on the subject: Can we all appreciate that one Dwarf saying he'll welcome being proven wrong? He's the least accurate part of this: What real-world politician would do that? Truly, he is an inspiration to us all.:smallbiggrin:

Yes! This!
Because gods above, below and around, if more people were like that, EVERYTHING would be better

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I like how the whole inner chamber has this blueish light all over. Look at Whiterock's leader hair, we know it's white, but here it has this cyanish color.

It reassures everyone that they are under strict dwarven law here. Nice touch.

[Hiro Quester]

Let the forum infractions for bringing up real world politics flow!!!

A generous policy might be to distinguish between merely mentioning that there are parallels to current politics (ineffective bureaucracy being universal) and arguing about current politics, which we should of course avoid doing here

[D.One]

No comment until now that Whiterock Elder is Ranting Elder, Mother of Stoic Dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html)? Man, we've grown old...

[DaOldeWolf]

So Durkon´s running out of time? :smalleek:

[Fyraltari]

No comment until now that Whiterock Elder is Ranting Elder, Mother of Stoic Dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html)? Man, we've grown old...

Wasn't that obvious?

To be honset I first thought the Elder directly right to the Lord Speaker was her and I was like "Oh, so we're retconning the Swirly eyes away? That's sad but I guess the scene wouldn't make sense if they could see them" And then panel 6 made everything right.

[AutomatedTeller]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?

That said, this is kind of weird, that the council is just going along with it.

[masonwheeler]

Gotta say, this comic kind of bugs me. Not because of the real-world-politics parallels which may or may not exist, but because it seems inconsistent.

Maybe I've just been reading too much Brandon Sanderson, but... when you change things, things change in response. In a world in which Domination and other related magics are well-known to be a real thing that exists, there's no good reason why the council chamber would not be built with some sort of countermeasures against such forces, precisely to keep something like this from tainting the integrity of the council's decisions.

[Resileaf]

Gotta say, this comic kind of bugs me. Not because of the real-world-politics parallels which may or may not exist, but because it seems inconsistent.

Maybe I've just been reading too much Brandon Sanderson, but... when you change things, things change in response. In a world in which Domination and other related magics are well-known to be a real thing that exists, there's no good reason why the council chamber would not be built with some sort of countermeasures against such forces, precisely to keep something like this from tainting the integrity of the council's decisions.

As has been explained many times, the orange barrier removes any magic effect that could be affecting someone, and there is a gap left between the orange and blue barriers that has been left there on purpose.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Gotta say, this comic kind of bugs me. Not because of the real-world-politics parallels which may or may not exist, but because it seems inconsistent.

Maybe I've just been reading too much Brandon Sanderson, but... when you change things, things change in response. In a world in which Domination and other related magics are well-known to be a real thing that exists, there's no good reason why the council chamber would not be built with some sort of countermeasures against such forces, precisely to keep something like this from tainting the integrity of the council's decisions.

What like, say, an orange magical barrier that removes all magical effects including domination that they all crossed?


As has been explained many times, the orange barrier removes any magic effect that could be affecting someone, and there is a gap left between the orange and blue barriers that has been left there on purpose.

The purpose likely not being "allow vampires to pull this off", but something else that likely made sense at the time (I like to suggests it was "give a place where our bodyguards can hold attackers who just got de-buffed while they were able to re-cast", but is hardly the only possibility).

Grey Wolf

[Fitzclowningham]

Am I the only one seeing some trenchant political commentary here? Either way, I approve.

[Squire Doodad]

Can someone get me panels 6-8 in a single horizontal line format?

[Fyraltari]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?
It's possible that the Speaker has authority to do so, or that it doesn't need a majority but to pass a threshold of [X] votes in favour.

Or these guys are idiots. Your pick. I know mine.

That said, this is kind of weird, that the council is just going along with it.
Politicians going for the solution that requires less effort? Why, I never.

[dtilque]

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the Thundershields got a seat in the next few comics. As in, "occupy their seat", not "get the right to seat at the council."

I predicted a couple strips ago that the Thundershields would form a clan on the spur of the moment and get a vote in this Council. Since the Dominated outnumber the non-Dominated by one, that would make this a tie vote. Have no clue what the tie-breaker would be, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can someone get me panels 6-8 in a single horizontal line format?

Probably, but unless that someone is Rich, it'd be a bad idea.


Also, please do not take, alter, or use the provided avatar images, comic images, or other pieces of Rich's art without express consent.
Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

Probably, but unless that someone is Rich, it'd be a bad idea.


Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

Grey Wolf

Hm, good point.

[Drascin]

Gotta say, this comic kind of bugs me. Not because of the real-world-politics parallels which may or may not exist, but because it seems inconsistent.

Maybe I've just been reading too much Brandon Sanderson, but... when you change things, things change in response. In a world in which Domination and other related magics are well-known to be a real thing that exists, there's no good reason why the council chamber would not be built with some sort of countermeasures against such forces, precisely to keep something like this from tainting the integrity of the council's decisions.

Clearly, it was expected that after the barriers removed magical effects, the remaining councilors would obviously be a check on shenanigans like a vampire just walking in and dominating people, and nobody bothered to write this down anywhere or actually make a proper countermeasure for it.

And if you think this sounds unrealistic... well. I wanna live in your world, man :smallsigh:.

[woweedd]

Participating in government imposes massive Wisdom penalties.
Plus, the Alignment restrictions are MURDER. I know this one guy, multi-classed as a Lawyer/Paladin. I have no idea how he reconciled those behavioral restrictions. Oddly, if you know how to roleplay, it's a fairly good build, espesiclaly since it can treat legal documents as holy items: You haven't lived until you've killed a lich using a copy of the 1990 California Tax Code.

[Kantaki]

As has been explained many times, the orange barrier removes any magic effect that could be affecting someone, and there is a gap left between the orange and blue barriers that has been left there on purpose.


What like, say, an orange magical barrier that removes all magical effects including domination that they all crossed?



The purpose likely not being "allow vampires to pull this off", but something else that likely made sense at the time (I like to suggests it was "give a place where our bodyguards can hold attackers who just got de-buffed while they were able to re-cast", but is hardly the only possibility).

Grey Wolf

Makes sense. One barrier to dispel any magic that could control a council member, a second barrier that prevents casting magic and other rules breaking outright and enough space in between in case you need to do something sneaky-like the guards need to nuke some fool who tries to attack the council.
Add a feature that lets only dwarves pass and you have a pretty good security system.

For something like the current situation to happen so many things had to go wrong (a vote actually important enough to manipulate plus a enemy with a)insider information, b)access to the right agents to infiltrate and c) enough power to take out the security and d) the means to control a majority of the council) that additional security measures probably wouldn't have helped.

[Peelee]

I mean, Rich has mentioned doing that before, with this specific subject: He wrote the swirly eyes line as a joke back during the Starmetal Quest, and has had to write around it afterwards. Not in big ways, but, for instance, this is the reason Roy is conveniently facing the other direction when Durkon* dominated that Gnome priest.

Point taken. By the time he decided to make it noticeable in stick-world, though, he still had plenty of time to change things around if he wanted (for example, IIRC, he shifted Miko's blowing the gate to mid-way through the story when she was supposed to be around for way longer). So I'm still loathe to call it "writing himself into a corner."

[dtilque]

Interesting to note the curative effect on Roy of the Legacy Weapon. First panel, he looks bruised and hurt; second panel, he's no wound.

Did the strip get fixed after your post? I don't see any difference in Roy's damage between panels 1 and 2. But since he attacked the Worm in panel 1, it wouldn't surprise me if he did get some healing from that.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, there goes any plausibility to the notion that these representatives were chosen for their brains.

[Cirin]

Mr. Bean managed to get international, multicultural appeal due to the fact that he effectively acted like a small child, which is a fairly universal characteristic.

I believe the Giant tapped into a second universal characteristic, ineffective bureaucracy.:smalltongue:

"The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the Universe" - Dr. Leonard McCoy, Star Trek IV

[Peelee]

"The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the Universe" - Dr. Leonard McCoy, Star Trek IV

"That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?!" - General Tagge, Star Wars

Even Star Wars and Star Trek unite over bureaucracy!

[Fyraltari]

Point taken. By the time he decided to make it noticeable in stick-world, though, he still had plenty of time to change things around if he wanted (for example, IIRC, he shifted Miko's blowing the gate to mid-way through the story when she was supposed to be around for way longer). So I'm still loathe to call it "writing himself into a corner."
I'm not sure The Giant had the council meeting planned back in #183 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html).

[EmperorSarda]

Anyone else expecting the domination to be dispelled/cancelled once it is revealed what they are voting on?

If Ho Thanh's domination can be dispelled/broken because of the order of unacceptability in killing his defenseless liege, then how much more will the Dwarves' domination be broken when it is revealed that they are being asked to condemn their race to Hel?

[Kantaki]

Well, there goes any plausibility to the notion that these representatives were chosen for their brains.

Was there ever any such notion?:smallconfused:
I mean, the Council only exists for tradition's sake and is purely symbolic in nature*.
And the members were choosen for being part of specific families, probably based on their standing within those clans, be it by seniority, wealth, being the previous concil member's heir... whatever method they use.

What exactly gave you the illusion their brains where of any consideration?

*Well, until it suddenly wasn't.:smallamused:

[The Pilgrim]

Plus, the Alignment restrictions are MURDER. I know this one guy, multi-classed as a Lawyer/Paladin. I have no idea how he reconciled those behavioral restrictions.

He could do so by being a very poor lawyer. In all the meaning of the word "poor".

Ironically, on a medieval court system, a Paladin-Lawyer would actually be very successful. Veredicts were based on the Honor and Trustworthiness of the individuals involved, rather than on facts or legislation. So if a Paladin (who can't lie or act dishonorable) is vouching for you, that's having aready won half the battle.

[Resileaf]

Anyone else expecting the domination to be dispelled/cancelled once it is revealed what they are voting on?

If Ho Thanh's domination can be dispelled/broken because of the order of unacceptability in killing his defenseless liege, then how much more will the Dwarves' domination be broken when it is revealed that they are being asked to condemn their race to Hel?

Because domination does not get dispelled just by that. Killing his defenseless lord was completely against Ho Thanh's morals and beliefs and that's why he got a new save. All the dwarven councillors have been asked to do is "Vote yes on the main proposal", something that by itself is not against their beliefs because there's no indication of what the proposal is going to be ahead of time. If the vampires had given the order once the proposal was known, then yes, they would get a new save because it would obviously be against their beliefs (and it would just give them a bonus to saves, not make it work for sure).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Anyone else expecting the domination to be dispelled/cancelled once it is revealed what they are voting on?

Can't speak for everyone, but I for one would be very surprised if this whole scenario was resolved without the need for the OotS and assorted allies.

Grey Wolf

[The MunchKING]

He could do so by being a very poor lawyer. In all the meaning of the word "poor".

Ironically, on a medieval court system, a Paladin-Lawyer would actually be very successful. Veredicts were based on the Honor and Trustworthiness of the individuals involved, rather than on facts or legislation. So if a Paladin (who can't lie or act dishonorable) is vouching for you, that's having aready won half the battle.

And the other half being trial by combat, well A Paladin as your Lawyer will help out a lot there too. :D

[Peelee]

I'm not sure The Giant had the council meeting planned back in #183 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html).

Depends on how you read his comments on getting the overall story down after strip 100 or so. I figure that means the high points, which could easily consist of "Chapter X: Vampire goes to Godsmoot, adds more vampires, dwarf demigod tiebreaks with council vote, vampires go to dwarven lands, Durkon beats Vampire Durkon, other vampires hijack council vote, order beats vampires." Plenty of room to shift things around while still having the council vote being a main staple of it early on.

Just my interpretation, though, and I could easily be wrong.

[Myta]

As a DM I would rule that voting yes on the proposal to destroy everyone is very obviously a self destructive order, and thus not carried out.
This would not even need a new saving throw. Obvious self destruction is simply not possible with this spell.

[Ruck]

A generous policy might be to distinguish between merely mentioning that there are parallels to current politics (ineffective bureaucracy being universal) and arguing about current politics, which we should of course avoid doing here

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics? Like you said, ineffective bureaucracy is universal; this parallel could be applied to any point in time if you squint enough.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Plus, the Alignment restrictions are MURDER. I know this one guy, multi-classed as a Lawyer/Paladin. I have no idea how he reconciled those behavioral restrictions. Oddly, if you know how to roleplay, it's a fairly good build, espesiclaly since it can treat legal documents as holy items: You haven't lived until you've killed a lich using a copy of the 1990 California Tax Code.

Please tell me this is a game on this forum or somewhere else I can look it up, because this sounds awesome.

[DavidSh]

The motion to postpone hasn't actually been withdrawn or voted down, has it? It isn't entirely incompatible with the proposed investigation.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The motion to postpone hasn't actually been withdrawn or voted down, has it? It isn't entirely incompatible with the proposed investigation.

It wasn't seconded, so it can't go into effect.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Please tell me this is a game on this forum or somewhere else I can look it up, because this sounds awesome.

No, but you can easily write rules around it. For example, any tax code could be statted as a two-handed bludgeoning weapon.

Special ability: Filibuster - lets the wielder make a Full Attack action as a Level 20 Fighter.
Pre-reqs - Lawful alignment, Leadership feat

[Fyraltari]

The motion to postpone hasn't actually been withdrawn or voted down, has it? It isn't entirely incompatible with the proposed investigation.

The investigation is to begin after the vote, so yes it is.

[Anarion]

I’m most amused that only half the council is dominated at the moment, even if the other half is very silly. Vampire in there needs to step up her game.

[woweedd]

Please tell me this is a game on this forum or somewhere else I can look it up, because this sounds awesome.
Sadly, no, it's a joke.

As a DM I would rule that voting yes on the proposal to destroy everyone is very obviously a self destructive order, and thus not carried out.
This would not even need a new saving throw. Obvious self destruction is simply not possible with this spell.
I mean...Technically, the order is just "vote yes on the proposal". No more obviously self-destructive then, say, "jump in that clear liquid, oh, wait, it's acid". Sure, that action is suicidal in context, but removing context is kind what mind control spells do.

He could do so by being a very poor lawyer. In all the meaning of the word "poor".

Ironically, on a medieval court system, a Paladin-Lawyer would actually be very successful. Veredicts were based on the Honor and Trustworthiness of the individuals involved, rather than on facts or legislation. So if a Paladin (who can't lie or act dishonorable) is vouching for you, that's having aready won half the battle.
Technically, that is still partly a thing: It's called Character Witnesses.

[Resileaf]

I’m most amused that only half the council is dominated at the moment, even if the other half is very silly. Vampire in there needs to step up her game.

The vampire inside can't dominate anyone else or she'll get turned to stone.

[The MunchKING]

No, but you can easily write rules around it. For example, any tax code could be statted as a two-handed bludgeoning weapon.

Two-handed? So your GM allows Titans as Playable characters?? :smalltongue:

Or are you just using an abridged version?

[woweedd]

No, but you can easily write rules around it. For example, any tax code could be statted as a two-handed bludgeoning weapon.

Special ability: Filibuster - lets the wielder make a Full Attack action as a Level 20 Fighter.
Pre-reqs - Lawful alignment, Leadership feat
...I actually do want someone to stat up a Lawyer class now. I just want to kill a Skeleton with the power of OSHA! Is that too much to ask?

[Fyraltari]

I’m most amused that only half the council is dominated at the moment, even if the other half is very silly. Vampire in there needs to step up her game.

That was their plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html). Although I had assumed the undominated minority was made up of the Councilmen who were not at the Chamber yet.

EDIT:

...I actually do want someone to stat up a Lawyer class now. I just want to kill a Skeleton with the power of OSHA! Is that too much to ask?

Some kind of Rogue specializing in Charisma, maybe?

[Bacon Elemental]

I’m most amused that only half the council is dominated at the moment, even if the other half is very silly. Vampire in there needs to step up her game.

I guess the rest of the council arrived earlier than expected, before the Exexarch was sent over by Durkula

[gatemansgc]

The runes at the top of the 3rd panel say "follow the law". That's my guess.

honestly a reasonable assumption. especially as both the 1st and 3rd words end in the same rune.



also, i guess the dwarves can be so calm about the domination since they don't even know what they're voting on yet! and i bet now that this motion is in order (to investigate later), they can't take it back once they find out they're voting to destroy the world and doom all dwarves to hel. since, bureaucracy and all.

[Anansiil]

I've been in these kinds of meetings, and it is equally frustrating to observe in (quality) comic form or real life -_- lol

[gatemansgc]

also, since talking is allowed in the chamber, is singing? like bardic song of freedom?

[zimmerwald1915]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics?
Probably. What people are seeing as reminiscent of current politics isn't the log-rolling (an aside, what we're seeing is about as far as possible to be from bureaucracy; it's a personal, gentile council), it's the specific situation of undue influence on the electorate by people who are not in the electorate.

Which, for what it's worth, is entirely unexceptional.

[Myta]

I mean...Technically, the order is just "vote yes on the proposal". No more obviously self-destructive then, say, "jump in that clear liquid, oh, wait, it's acid". Sure, that action is suicidal in context, but removing context is kind what mind control spells do.

You might be thinking of spells like suggestion were the wording is important. For Dominate it clearly says "Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out." There is absolutely no hint in the spell description that you could get the subject to self destruct by clever wording, removing context or whatever technicalities.
For this spell RAW and RAI is quite clear: this spell cannot be used for anything that would obviously lead to the destruction of the target.

[woweedd]

That was their plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1158.html). Although I had assumed the undominated minority was made up of the Councilmen who were not at the Chamber yet.

EDIT:


Some kind of Rogue specializing in Charisma, maybe?
I want the power to harm enemies by quoting rapid-fire legal text at them:
"Ah, you're Lawful, right, Mr...Fire Lord? Ah, knew you were. Well, i'm sorry to inform you, but according to form 1926.10(a), your evil castle is simply not up to code. "no contractor or subcontractor contracting for any part of the contract work shall require any laborer or mechanic employed in the performance of the contract to work in surroundings or under working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous." The pits of acid and magma, with no covering, loose balconies with no safety railing...We have counted, in total, 1317 violations, that is a total fine of 17,034,078 GP. Speaking of legalliase, let us move on to your numerous violations of the Geneva Convention...".

[Fyraltari]

I want the power to harm enemies by quoting rapid-fire legal text at them:
"Ah, you're Lawful, right, Mr...Fire Lord? Ah, knew you were. Well, i'm sorry to inform you, but according to form 1926.10(a), your evil castle is simply not up to code. "no contractor or subcontractor contracting for any part of the contract work shall require any laborer or mechanic employed in the performance of the contract to work in surroundings or under working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to his health or safety, as determined under construction safety and health standards promulgated by the Secretary by regulation." The pits of acid and magma, with no covering, loose balconies with no safety railing...We have counted, in total, 1317 violations, that is a total fine of 17,034,078 GP. Speaking of legalliase, let us move on to your numerous violations of the Geneva Convention...".
Wait, I already have a headache, I don't need another one!

[ericgrau]

The council needs more ranks in sense motive.

There is a legitimate reason to not wait to vote. Investigations take a long time and then nothing would get done. And nothing getting done is slightly slower than already painfully slow bureaucracy. But hey, that's bureaucracy logic for ya.

[Going Hereward]

"Depressingly and infuriatingly accurate social commentary: the comic."

Hel can have the council then.

[Peelee]

Two-handed? So your GM allows Titans as Playable characters?? :smalltongue:

Or are you just using an abridged version?

It's a magic item*, so it resizes itself to the wielder.:smallamused:

*well, at the very least, it's arcane.

[zimmerwald1915]

bureaucracy
Can everyone stop abusing this term?

[Fyraltari]

Can everyone stop abusing this term?

This is obviously a tablecracy, people!

[drazen]

"Let's have the vote first, abide by the result, and then look into whether the vote could have been manipulated by outside forces" is depressingly on the nose.

Or, another way to look at it: "Several astonishingly obvious plants with an oppressive, anti-dwarven agenda, the actual scope of which is only apparent to the fully informed, are corrupting and manipulating the bureaucracy for their own nefarious ends. Their only remaining meaningful opposition is a rebel group of non-uniformed irregular combatants, many of whom are ex-military, including a small special-ops group of foreign mercenaries, engaged in what could possibly be framed as civil insurrection."

All that said, once again apparently this book is back to people holding the idiot ball for the plot to work.

[nabcif]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics? Like you said, ineffective bureaucracy is universal; this parallel could be applied to any point in time if you squint enough.

You are not.

Could be a knowledge check of some sort is necessary to know what the swirly eyes mean. Maybe Knowledge [Religion], since the cleric-but-not-the-high-priest of Dvalin is frowning, while everyone else thinks it's somewhat reasonable to defer investigation?

This doesn't explain why Orange Haired Council Member is smiling after, as Grey_Wolf_c notes, his motion doesn't proceed due to the lack of a second.

Knowledge [Arcana] seems more likely, now that I've looked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm). FWIW, pretty much everything I know about D&D rules comes from this forum.

Also, for those talking about it being a problem with bureaucracy, I'm a bureaucrat, and I don't have to deal with motions and votes and whatnot like this. Those are for people making the rules, not for people like me who follow them. I was going to ask what this sort of thing is called, but then...


8=<snip>=8
(an aside, what we're seeing is about as far as possible to be from bureaucracy; it's a personal, gentile council)
8=< snip >=8

...I was answered.

[woweedd]

Wait, I already have a headache, I don't need another one!
I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword. Most people, when they make deals with otherworldly powers, ask for beauty or strength: she asked for perfect recall. She was supposed to fulfill a precondition within a few days to keep it: She couldn't, but she did manage to discover attempts by said powers to sabotage her efforts, thus breaching the contract. The court swung in her favor, but the near-miss inspired her to turn to a life of helping people.

[The Pilgrim]

And the other half being trial by combat, well A Paladin as your Lawyer will help out a lot there too. :D

:smallwink:

[Ruck]

Probably. What people are seeing as reminiscent of current politics isn't the log-rolling (an aside, what we're seeing is about as far as possible to be from bureaucracy; it's a personal, gentile council), it's the specific situation of undue influence on the electorate by people who are not in the electorate.

Which, for what it's worth, is entirely unexceptional.

Indeed. I fear further elaborating on any of my thoughts will definitely violate the no-politics rule, though.

[Lheticus]

Ah, bureaucracy. You can't spell it without something very like "crazy."

[Peelee]

bureaucracy
Can everyone stop abusing this term?

Sure!

So, how about that state or organization governed or managed as a bureaucracy, eh?:smalltongue:

[Themrys]

They can see the vampire, they can see the swirling in the other people's eyes and they can see the vampire leaning in to feed the Councilwoman's lines to her yet they treat "they're being dominated" as something that has yet to be demonstrated. Under no circumstances does that attitude makes sense.


It doesn't make sense, but it happens all the time in real life, so ...

Totally plausible.

Obvious danger -> admitting to this obvious danger isn't politically opportune at this moment -> obvious danger is denied until it is much too late

I think guy who says he looks forward to the possibility of being proven wrong must have realized everyone else is insane and is afraid of speaking up any more - also a thing that happens. Or, of course, he is only a very tiny bit cleverer than everyone else and didn't realize the full implications of the domination problem he pointed out.

After what I had to witness in real life, I am really careful with accusing authors of giving their characters the idiot ball. There truly is no limit to human stupidity. Doubly so if people form a group. Lots of people who are intelligent on their own become utter idiots while inside a group of idiots, because saying the obvious truth would lose them the approval of everyone else. To the point of convincing themselves the idiotic point of view is actually true because they cannot endure the cognitive dissonance of saying one thing and believing another.


So, yeah. I have no complaints about the storytelling here. I rather like the parody.

[Ruck]

To zimmerwald's point, this is less about actual bureaucracy and more about a bureaucratic mindset; i.e. an undue and unwarranted faith in process.

I'm reminded a little bit of Eve & Larry's Alchemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html)

[Rogar Demonblud]

These people deserve a god who's so Lawful Stupid he'll throw all the souls of all of his followers into an Evil goddess's toy basket for an eternity of suffering because of a long-superceded oath.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

These people deserve a god who's so Lawful Stupid he'll throw all the souls of all of his followers into an Evil goddess's toy basket for an eternity of suffering because of a long-superceded oath.

Yeah, that Heimdall, what a bastard.
[/sarcasm]
Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?Well, Gontor did order the Dominated councilors to vote 'yes' on the first proposal. Hence the curly-haired vampire working to keep this from being the first proposal.


I predicted a couple strips ago that the Thundershields would form a clan on the spur of the moment and get a vote in this Council.Won't happen, because even if they formed a legally recognized clan, they don't have admittance here. This is the dwarf equivalent of the Mayflower Society: if you are not a direct descendant of the original clans, you don't count. Another reason why the rest of the dwarves sidelined them


Anyone else expecting the domination to be dispelled/cancelled once it is revealed what they are voting on?

No. We've discussed this repeatedly, and I think we're up to eight ways this is a dwarfly thing to do. My personal favorite was the one where it is their dwarfly duty to save the souls of everyone on the planet, even if it makes them miserable. :durkon: Especially if it makes them miserable.

[Resileaf]

Well, Gontor did order the Dominated councilors to vote 'yes' on the first proposal. Hence the curly-haired vampire working to keep this from being the first proposal.


He said 'Main proposal', not first. Curly's words are just a way to make sure the vote happens.

[Doug Lampert]

Makes sense. One barrier to dispel any magic that could control a council member, a second barrier that prevents casting magic and other rules breaking outright and enough space in between in case you need to do something sneaky-like the guards need to nuke some fool who tries to attack the council.
Add a feature that lets only dwarves pass and you have a pretty good security system.

For something like the current situation to happen so many things had to go wrong (a vote actually important enough to manipulate plus a enemy with a)insider information, b)access to the right agents to infiltrate and c) enough power to take out the security and d) the means to control a majority of the council) that additional security measures probably wouldn't have helped.

Yep, even the barriers that exist almost certainly date back to the distant past when the council actually mattered.

Given how unimportant the council is considered, even by its members, the defenses are implausibly TOUGH if anything is off about this.

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

The actual realism/verisimilitude question shouldn't be, "Why are the defenses so porous?", it should be, "Why are the defenses anything more than the personal bodyguards that the attendees brought? What in the world made someone decide to give an archaic and unimportant group defenses like that?"

Obviously, because without the defenses, the story wouldn't work right, but the problem has never been that the defenses aren't as good as they should be.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, that Heimdall, what a bastard.

He's not the one saying throw the dwarves to Hel. He thinks all the souls will go to their aligned plane for normal afterlife processing.

Makes you wonder just how widespread the knowledge of the bet is with the other gods.

[Wowlock]

If the fate of the world wasn't at stake, I would've said ''let them die out of their own idiocy''.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He's not the one saying throw the dwarves to Hel. He thinks all the souls will go to their aligned plane for normal afterlife processing.
No, he is saying they'll go to their (the gods') respective realms. Which for dwarves is Hel's.


Makes you wonder just how widespread the knowledge of the bet is with the other gods.

That's the charicative way to look at it. I think he knows about the bet, and just doesn't care, since presumably not many dwarves worhip him. And he has not done the math, so he doesn't realise just how much power that'll give Hel, which is the only thing that makes him hesitate.

In any case, I could say similar things about a bunch of other gods. My broader point is that pining this all on Dvalin is a bit much, given how many other full gods and demigods had the chance to fix this and did not. The only one that comes out looking half-decent is Hermod.

Grey Wolf

[gerryq]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?

That said, this is kind of weird, that the council is just going along with it.

They could filibuster, especially if the chairman is undominated.

[Zhorn]

Lawful stupid at its finest:smallbiggrin:

[Ganbatte]

............So, they really are just idiots.

As much as I like being proven correct in my theories... ugh.

[zimmerwald1915]

To zimmerwald's point, this is less about actual bureaucracy and more about a bureaucratic mindset; i.e. an undue and unwarranted faith in process.
That's still not a bureaucratic mindset, it's a parliamentary-proceduralist mindset. Or proceduralist for short.

[Ghosty]

Plus, the Alignment restrictions are MURDER. I know this one guy, multi-classed as a Lawyer/Paladin. I have no idea how he reconciled those behavioral restrictions. Oddly, if you know how to roleplay, it's a fairly good build, espesiclaly since it can treat legal documents as holy items: You haven't lived until you've killed a lich using a copy of the 1990 California Tax Code.

Did he drop it on him? Did opening summon demons from the Board of Equalization to do the tormenting for him?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Did he drop it on him? Did opening summon demons from the Board of Equalization to do the tormenting for him?

Don't be silly. Dropping the California Tax Code is an Extinction Level Event waiting to happen.

[Ghosty]

Don't be silly. Dropping the California Tax Code is an Extinction Level Event waiting to happen.

So many possible jokes in this thread run afoul of the no current events/no politics rule.

The I.R.C. is worse, FWIW. And then there are all of the Treasury Regs, and letters from the Commissioner trying to explain what they meant....

He could've drowned the lich in paper, if liches needed to breath.

[Rogar Demonblud]

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

Why would the Parliament leave the capital to work in this backrocks town?

Really, the only flaw in the defenses is that nobody considered a dwarf vampire a serious possibility. Otherwise, orange layer blocks non-dwarves and strips away spells, guards layer beats up anyone trying to cast spells on people (while still allowing a space for attendees to negotiate things not allowed inside), while the blue layer lays a smackdown on anyone not following the law.

[Morty]

A concentrated attack by a group of dwarven vampires that includes clerics and tries to sway the Council's vote to very literally end the world isn't really a scenario anyone can be blamed for not forseeing.

[Peelee]

Why would the Parliament leave the capital to work in this backrocks town?

Maybe Firmanement has more funkadelics.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword.

My first thought on reading this was 'this must be what Daredevil's D&D class is.' :smallbiggrin:

[D.One]

That's still not a bureaucratic mindset, it's a parliamentary-proceduralist mindset. Or proceduralist for short.

Yeah, bureaucracy as a general term keeps getting a level of hatred that is kind of undeserved when you consider what the original administrative model intended. The whole idea of having defined procedures to do things revolves around the concept of "we have procedures pre-made, so we will do things in a more efficient way, and in a way that is transparent to everyone". Of course, there are some differences beetween the idea and the way she's implemented in many places...


That's the charicative way to look at it. I think he knows about the bet, and just doesn't care, since presumably not many dwarves worhip him. And he has not done the math, so he doesn't realise just how much power that'll give Hel, which is the only thing that makes him hesitate.

In any case, I could say similar things about a bunch of other gods. My broader point is that pining this all on Dvalin is a bit much, given how many other full gods and demigods had the chance to fix this and did not. The only one that comes out looking half-decent is Hermod.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, people keep taking on Dvalin and forget that many other gods voted YES, some for reasons way worse than "asking the dwarves to decide". (I'm looking at you, "bored of this world" Njord)



I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword.

But Paladins need to be Good in 3.5, isn't it? :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[kivzirrum]

This comic... this was funny. Depressingly resonant, but very funny.


I recommend the History of Rome podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-rome/id261654474) to find a clear demonstration of how I could not disagree more with the above statement.

A+ recommendation. Just discovered that podcast about five months ago, and it's absolutely a brilliant survey of Roman history. Love it!

[Peelee]

Yeah, bureaucracy as a general term keeps getting a level of hatred that is kind of undeserved when you consider what the original administrative model intended. The whole idea of having defined procedures to do things revolves around the concept of "we have procedures pre-made, so we will do things in a more efficient way, and in a way that is transparent to everyone". Of course, there are some differences beetween the idea and the way she's implemented in many places...

That is technically correct. The best kind of correct! You have been promoted to Bureaucrat Grade 37.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

But Paladins need to be Good in 3.5, isn't it? :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Get your levels in Lawyer first, + Helm of Opposite Alignment = DONE! :smallwink:

[Alexandrite]

{scrubbed}

[understatement]

Unspoken plan guarantee.

Works like a charm.

[kivzirrum]

That's still not a bureaucratic mindset, it's a parliamentary-proceduralist mindset. Or proceduralist for short.

Genuine question, devoid of snark--is there a reason to quibble over this, beyond pedantry?

Again, I don't mean anything rude by this--I myself am a fan of well-placed pedantry. I'm just curious as to your thoughts on that :smallsmile:

[Sir_Norbert]

............So, they really are just idiots.

As much as I like being proven correct in my theories... ugh.

No, they're just not willing to take risks, which is a perfectly understandable reaction.

The vampire is right there in the room, and they're afraid that if they speak up they will be the next targets. So they pretend they haven't noticed anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

Because the place only fits ~14 people. And current parliament might actually include non-dwarfs, as observers, allies, visitors, actual elected members, etc.


"Why are the defenses so porous?", it should be, "Why are the defenses anything more than the personal bodyguards that the attendees brought? What in the world made someone decide to give an archaic and unimportant group defenses like that?"

Presumably the defences were set up back when the council did matter.

Grey Wolf

[dtilque]

I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword.

Jones or Rodriguez? Well, they have the sharp suits, anyway.



Won't happen, because even if they formed a legally recognized clan, they don't have admittance here. This is the dwarf equivalent of the Mayflower Society: if you are not a direct descendant of the original clans, you don't count. Another reason why the rest of the dwarves sidelined them.

Not going to ask for a cite on this, because I'm fairly certain there is none. You're reading a lot into the comic that isn't there explicitly. I'll just say, let's wait and see.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The vampire is right there in the room, and they're afraid that if they speak up they will be the next targets. So they pretend they haven't noticed anything.

Issue with this is they're in a room with a superspell protecting them against law-breaking.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Issue with this is they're in a room with a superspell protecting them against law-breaking.

A room they have to leave sooner or later. And they don't know there is help coming. They may even be aware of what has happened to their bodyguards.

If you are going to take the obvious rule-of-funny moment seriously, then the problem here is not why they shut this proposal down. It's why the bearded guy dared to suggest it in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Can everyone stop abusing this term?We don't have time to discuss this in committee!

[Peelee]

We don't have time to discuss this in committee!

I am not a committee!

[St Fan]

Could be a knowledge check of some sort is necessary to know what the swirly eyes mean. Maybe Knowledge [Religion], since the cleric-but-not-the-high-priest of Dvalin is frowning, while everyone else thinks it's somewhat reasonable to defer investigation?

This doesn't explain why Orange Haired Council Member is smiling after, as Grey_Wolf_c notes, his motion doesn't proceed due to the lack of a second.

Knowledge [Arcana] seems more likely, now that I've looked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm). FWIW, pretty much everything I know about D&D rules comes from this forum.


Actually, noticing that someone is dominated is simply a DC 15 Sense Motive check. Meaning it can even be done untrained, with more than a 1 in 4 chance of succeeding, better with some Wisdom bonus.

The swirly eyes is just the in-comic way to illustrate the stiff, unnatural demeanor that goes along with any domination, giving enough hints to be recognized.


Unrelated - since it hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, a little reminder: the blue barrier also stop sounds. So, the council members are likely unaware of the fight happening right in the next hall.

[Particle_Man]

A room they have to leave sooner or later. And they don't know there is help coming. They may even be aware of what has happened to their bodyguards.

If you are going to take the obvious rule-of-funny moment seriously, then the problem here is not why they shut this proposal down. It's why the bearded guy dared to suggest it in the first place.

Grey Wolf

If that were true, they are still dwarves. Shouldn’t they prefer to go down fighting because of the bet?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, noticing that someone is dominated is simply a DC 15 Sense Motive check. Meaning it can even be done untrained, with more than a 1 in 4 chance of succeeding, better with some Wisdom bonus.

And that's assuming the DM doesn't just let you use a Take 10 (or Take 20, if untrained) to keep the game moving.

[Lord Torath]

We don't have time to discuss this in committee!
I am not a committee!I understood that reference (https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/204/CaptainAmerica1_zps8c295f96.JPG)!


This council is meeting around the remains of one of their oldest and most powerful enemies. That's pretty badass. And mean-spirited.Good catch!

I like the drool coming out of one of the Dominated counselor's mouth. Nice touch!

Thanks, Rich!

[Jasdoif]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics?You were not. (https://dilbert.com/strip/1998-06-19)


I am not a committee!Aww. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjj_94ECUKU)

More generally, this scenario is reflective of any group that's intended to make decisions. If it's easy to get decisions postponed, whoever wants to maintain the status quo has an advantage in postponing decisions rather than actually making the case for positions; conversely, when a majority is sufficient for anything, then attaining a majority through external means is more efficient than actually making the case for positions. Finding the middle ground where rational debate is optimal is...let's say, an ongoing effort for civilization.

And looking into abuses after the fact would make for a good compromise...if the opportunity to reverse the results of the decision was available. And as explicitly mentioned in the comic, they don't yet know that the world could be destroyed by this vote. (On one hand, I think it'd be better to know the item on a single-item agenda before making motions...on the other hand, it sounds like they haven't done anything with such scope before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1155.html), and don't expect it now. I mean, it's not like I check every time I post whether a life-or-death decision will be made based on whether or not someone quotes the late Carrie Fisher....)

[Squire Doodad]

I am not a committee!

I could be, but the Dwarves took away my cloning machine.

[Fish]

Genuine question, devoid of snark--is there a reason to quibble over this, beyond pedantry?
Nope.

Remember kids, words always have only one meaning, decided upon by Zimmerwald. Anyone using alternate definitions or referencing contradictory connotations that arose separately from the sanctioned meaning are therefore wrong.

P.S. This post was not devoid of snark, until and unless Zimmerwald redefines the term such that it does contain said snark.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?


Dwarven Filibuster, obviously.

[Wysper]

Heh, could be worse. It could be effective bureaucracies that are universal.

Effective bureaucracy is an oxymoron

[Fyraltari]

It doesn't make sense, but it happens all the time in real life, so ...

Totally plausible.

Obvious danger -> admitting to this obvious danger isn't politically opportune at this moment -> obvious danger is denied until it is much too late

I think guy who says he looks forward to the possibility of being proven wrong must have realized everyone else is insane and is afraid of speaking up any more - also a thing that happens. Or, of course, he is only a very tiny bit cleverer than everyone else and didn't realize the full implications of the domination problem he pointed out.

After what I had to witness in real life, I am really careful with accusing authors of giving their characters the idiot ball. There truly is no limit to human stupidity. Doubly so if people form a group. Lots of people who are intelligent on their own become utter idiots while inside a group of idiots, because saying the obvious truth would lose them the approval of everyone else. To the point of convincing themselves the idiotic point of view is actually true because they cannot endure the cognitive dissonance of saying one thing and believing another.


So, yeah. I have no complaints about the storytelling here. I rather like the parody.
Yes, I know, I said that attitude didn’t make sense, not that it was implausible. Most real-life stuff doesn’t.

Yep, even the barriers that exist almost certainly date back to the distant past when the council actually mattered.

Given how unimportant the council is considered, even by its members, the defenses are implausibly TOUGH if anything is off about this.

With defenses this good, why didn't someone currently important (like the parliament) take over the council of clans meeting area for themselves and make the council meet in a closet somewhere?

The actual realism/verisimilitude question shouldn't be, "Why are the defenses so porous?", it should be, "Why are the defenses anything more than the personal bodyguards that the attendees brought? What in the world made someone decide to give an archaic and unimportant group defenses like that?"

Obviously, because without the defenses, the story wouldn't work right, but the problem has never been that the defenses aren't as good as they should be.
The likeliest explanations is that the barriers could not be moved and that the parliaments has better defenses now that it exists. Such as High-level combatants that could adapt to an attack designed around their defenses.

No, he is saying they'll go to their (the gods') respective realms. Which for dwarves is Hel's.



That's the charicative way to look at it. I think he knows about the bet, and just doesn't care, since presumably not many dwarves worhip him. And he has not done the math, so he doesn't realise just how much power that'll give Hel, which is the only thing that makes him hesitate.

In any case, I could say similar things about a bunch of other gods. My broader point is that pining this all on Dvalin is a bit much, given how many other full gods and demigods had the chance to fix this and did not. The only one that comes out looking half-decent is Hermod.

Grey Wolf
Hel specifically points him out as someone who might change his vote in light of her revelation. Your opinion that he would do so based solely on his concern for who leads the Pantheon rather than the dwarven souls is as arbitrary as the opposing one. However I find it more likely that Heimdall forgot about the Bet, rather than him not realizing what giving an entire race to Hel means.

Also Iounn votes on the basis of ‘‘what Hel said was like totally lame’’ so Hermod got company, I would say.

[Rrmcklin]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics? Like you said, ineffective bureaucracy is universal; this parallel could be applied to any point in time if you squint enough.

My thoughts as well. Honestly, I'm not actually sure how I feel about this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If that were true, they are still dwarves. Shouldn’t they prefer to go down fighting because of the bet?

They're dwarven politicians. Their field of battle is politics. If they get killed while being politicians, for being politicians, they still avoid Hel, as per Rich's examples.

While if they try to run away, and die, that'd be a dishonorable death. So they stay, and fight with the tools at their disposal (poorly, I'll grant you, but they don't get points for competency).

Grey Wolf

[Reboot]

Get your levels in Lawyer first, + Helm of Opposite Alignment = DONE! :smallwink:

Doesn't work. The Lawyer class has a "Lawful (Any)" alignment restriction. The Helm would make you Chaotic and cause the loss of all class-related powers.

[Kantaki]

(poorly, I'll grant you, but they don't get points for competency).

Grey Wolf

Well, duh.
That's kind of inherent with the system the dwarves are dying under.
If anything incompetence* is what gets rewarded.

*Or at least being not competent enough. Small difference.

[Ruck]

My first thought on reading this was 'this must be what Daredevil's D&D class is.' :smallbiggrin:

https://twitter.com/Pale_0ntologist/status/1026287575789645824?s=19

[JumboWheat01]

Besides, Elan, how could you let that big, squirmy bag of EXP go? Everyone could always use more levels!

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just realized there's a very simple way to delay this vote indefinitely.

1. break out several kegs of Fortified Skullwhomper Ale

2. start counting down from 100

Not even dwarves will be standing after about 80.

[eilandesq]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?

That said, this is kind of weird, that the council is just going along with it.

It wouldn't pass--but seeing all the vampire dominated ones vote in concert with swirly eyes might convince them to try something desperate to stop any further votes. Say, like all of the non-dominated dwarves attacking the dominated ones and immediately being petrified until the meeting is adjourned as a result. If the quorum requirement for a valid vote is high enough, that might be enough to completely prevent any binding vote (and Dvalin--having seen all of this go down--*might* not be enough of a stubborn fool to insist on honoring the Council's vote at this point.

[Fyraltari]

I just realized there's a very simple way to delay this vote indefinitely.

1. break out several kegs of Fortified Skullwhomper Ale

2. start counting down from 100

Not even dwarves will be standing after about 80.

I think the thralls would obey the orders not to drink. If they fail their new saving throw, that is. :smallbiggrin:

[BaronOfHell]

I am a little slow to get this strip, but as I understand it, the notion to postpone the vote would always have been down voted since this strip established that the bad guys have a majority in voting. While the two last frames are simply hilarious.

Is that also how you guys understood it, or am I getting it wrong?

[zimmerwald1915]

Genuine question, devoid of snark--is there a reason to quibble over this, beyond pedantry?
Of course pedantry is its own reward, but there is an actual substantive reason. First of all, the propaganda that bureaucracy is an inefficient imposition is historically and empirically untrue. Bureaucracy is a practical necessity for projects above a certain size, which is why it is practically ubiquitous today, both in the private and public sectors. Second, despite this, the propaganda is politically useful for a certain project that shall go unnamed. Third, given the above, and that experientially bureaucracies can in fact be unpleasant to deal with, bureaucracy and the things memetically associated with it, namely rigidity and lack of responsiveness to special circumstances, have become unpopular. So calling things that are not bureaucracies bureaucratic is just another way of calling them a bad thing you don't like. Not only is it sloppy language, it exposes things we might otherwise approve of to attacks in the same vein as attacks on the bureaucracy. And that can be dangerous.

[Kish]

I am a little slow to get this strip, but as I understand it, the notion to postpone the vote would always have been down voted since this strip established that the bad guys have a majority in voting. While the two last frames are simply hilarious.

Is that also how you guys understood it, or am I getting it wrong?
The motion to postpone the vote would have passed unanimously or close to it, because the vampires have dominated thralls who have been instructed to "vote yes on the issue proposed."

[Fyraltari]

The motion to postpone the vote would have passed unanimously or close to it, because the vampires have dominated thralls who have been instructed to "vote yes on the issue proposed."

The main (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html) issue proposed.

[Saluriel]

{Scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

Saluriel, you may not be aware that discussing real-world politics here is forbidden by the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), most likely to keep our rampant collective insanity at a tolerable level for everyone. Thank you.

[Sloanzilla]

This council is meeting around the remains of one of their oldest and most powerful ennemies. That's pretty badass. And mean-spirited.

This deserves more credit than it received

[Kantaki]

Saluriel, you may not be aware that discussing real-world politics here is forbidden by the Forum Rules, most likely to keep out rampant collective insanity at a tolerable level for everyone.

Probably.
Jokes on them though.
The rules don't keep our crazy at low levels, they just make us focus on other topics.:smallamused::smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

Good catch!


This deserves more credit than it received

Thank you both!

[warmachine]

If the Speaker had any sense, he'd order a guard to enter the inner chamber, even if he's dominated, then declare use of advisors in council meetings an illegal violation of convention, because no else has one, and order the guard to evict the non-council member. With luck, that might count as dwarven law and the vampire won't have time to get the ruling overthrown whilst being evicted and not violating dwarven law. If the guard ignores orders, immediately adjourn the meeting as disloyal guards suggest an imminent coup.

[5crownik007]

"I for one look forward to being proven wrong."
Now that is a real person, we should all aspire to be like that guy.

[Peelee]

If the Speaker had any sense, he'd order a guard to enter the inner chamber, even if he's dominated, then declare use of advisors in council meetings an illegal violation of convention, because no else has one, and order the guard to evict the non-council member. With luck, that might count as dwarven law and the vampire won't have time to get the ruling overthrown whilst being evicted and not violating dwarven law. If the guard ignores orders, immediately adjourn the meeting as disloyal guards suggest an imminent coup.

Wild guess here, but I'd say spontaneously making up laws probably isn't in their legal system. Or, if it is, it'd go the other way.

[Riftwolf]

This comic makes no sense whatsoever

Why are Dwarven Elders meeting round a WOODEN table?

No sense whatsoever

[Algeh]

I like how the whole inner chamber has this blueish light all over. Look at Whiterock's leader hair, we know it's white, but here it has this cyanish color.

It reassures everyone that they are under strict dwarven law here. Nice touch.

Great catch! I'd noticed the slightly different coloring on the council panels, but had't thought about why it might be that way. I think my brain just parsed it as a "printing error" even though that didn't make actual sense.



...I actually do want someone to stat up a Lawyer class now. I just want to kill a Skeleton with the power of OSHA! Is that too much to ask?

I once had a player in a GURPS game play an intellectual property lawyer. Sadly, I didn't manage to work that particular fact into the main plot in any meaningful way, since the game took place on a different continent than the PC was licensed in, and I was not able to loop a relevant IP issue into the ongoing plot before the game fell apart a year or so later.


Dwarven Filibuster, obviously.

Is that like a Cleric's Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)?

[HUMVEE Driver]

No one is that dumb.

Piss poor comic this time.

[Peelee]

No one is that dumb.

Piss poor comic this time.

Ivan is sad that his legacy is forgotten.

[DaOldeWolf]

No one is that dumb.

Piss poor comic this time.

I dont know. I think people can feel detached enough about boring situations that they would go for the easy mindless solution than drag on something that has been called in comic as boring and annoying. Especially, if you feel safe and confident about being safe.

[woweedd]

This comic makes no sense whatsoever

Why are Dwarven Elders meeting round a WOODEN table?

No sense whatsoever
Hey, that table represents a great victory over the forces of Tree!

[BriarHobbit]

There is the possibility that some of those dwarven politicians are just painfully dumb. Others might have a sense of self-preservation. If you are not high level, you do not want to face an angry vampire. I suppose some politicians might be curious to see what the vampire has in mind. There might be some other facts that we don't yet know. So, this might not just be a laugh at the notion that the hide-bound dwarves need a committee to investigate a self-evident problem. For all I know, some internal security might have been activated. This is one of those comics that might need some more context.

[Necris Omega]

Proposed subtitles for Order of the Stick:

Chaos will always win, because Law is dumb

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Chaos will always win, because Law is dumb

Counterpoint: Elan.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

Proposed subtitles for Order of the Stick:

Chaos will always win, because Law is dumb


Counterpoint: Elan.

Grey Wolf

Additional counterpoint: Most of the prominent paladins aside from Miko.

[The MunchKING]

Counterpoint: Elan.

Grey Wolf

Just because Law is dumb doesn't mean Chaos isn't also Dumb.


*nods seriously*

[Necris Omega]

Counterpoint: Elan.

Grey Wolf

One idiot cannot compete against a whole council of politically empowered idiots.

Also, Elan's idiocy and alignment are mostly independent of one another, while every time we have anything resembling a lawful body...?



The only outstanding exception I can think of off hand is Lord Shojo. He was smart. He was good. And he was in charge. Problem is, even as brilliant as he was, he had to play dumb for sheer survival's sake. That's not just natural lawful stupidity, that's lawful stupidity by penalty of death.

Except he wasn't lawful, and the actual lawful entities were in the dark about it.

Now, the argument can be made that if society functioned and civic powers could do anything right, there'd be no reason for the Order to... exist, basically. But, as the fall of Azure City proves, you can have both dire threats and at least semi-functioning authorities. That said, the extent to which it is underpinned less by "the authorities can't handle a threat of this magnitude" and more "the authorities can't handle it because they lost the operations manual to their pants" is less comedic at this point and just getting tedious.

[Rrmcklin]

One idiot cannot compete against a whole council of politically empowered idiots.

Also, Elan's idiocy and alignment are mostly independent of one another, while every time we have anything resembling a lawful body...?



The only outstanding exception I can think of off hand is Lord Shojo. He was smart. He was good. And he was in charge. Problem is, even as brilliant as he was, he had to play dumb for sheer survival's sake. That's not just natural lawful stupidity, that's lawful stupidity by penalty of death.

Now, the argument can be made that if society functioned and civic powers could do anything right, there'd be no reason for the Order to... exist, basically. But, as the fall of Azure City proves, you can have both dire threats and at least semi-functioning authorities. That said, the extent to which it is underpinned less by "the authorities can't handle a threat of this magnitude" and more "the authorities can't handle it because they lost the operations manual to their pants" is less comedic at this point and just getting tedious.

Shojo wasn't Lawful. And exactly how many lawful bodies have we even seen? Because you're making a very bold claim here.

[Emperor Time]

Not the best of compromises but a just and lawful one nevertheless. At least in the Dwarven way of thinking. Which usually works out in the end for the better party.

[Psyren]

Genuine question, devoid of snark--is there a reason to quibble over this, beyond pedantry?


It's zimmer, pedantry is ambrosia.


No one is that dumb.

You'd think that, buuuut... *gestures vaguely*

[Ruck]

I really didn't like this one. It felt like not only low-hanging fruit but buying into the same idiotic conspiracy theories that keep swirling around.
"After we dismissed the idea of foreign interference as stupid and declared it's impossible to rig the election, now we say the election was rigged and a foreign power interfered! We have proof! No, you can't see the proof. No, we're not even going to share the proof with the intelligence agencies. Now we're setting up a two-year circus to arrest people and violate as many civil liberties as we can. What, after two years there's no evidence? That means guilt!"

Yeah I think you're projecting.


No one is that dumb.

Piss poor comic this time.

You ought to meet more people.

[woweedd]

Yeah, bureaucracy as a general term keeps getting a level of hatred that is kind of undeserved when you consider what the original administrative model intended. The whole idea of having defined procedures to do things revolves around the concept of "we have procedures pre-made, so we will do things in a more efficient way, and in a way that is transparent to everyone". Of course, there are some differences beetween the idea and the way she's implemented in many places...



Yeah, people keep taking on Dvalin and forget that many other gods voted YES, some for reasons way worse than "asking the dwarves to decide". (I'm looking at you, "bored of this world" Njord)




But Paladins need to be Good in 3.5, isn't it? :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:
That was the original joke.

[Grey Watcher]

No one is that dumb.

I envy you, sir-madam-or-preferred-honorific, that your life has let you believe this level of stupidity is implausible.

[Lkctgo]

Although Dwarves have been portrayed as fairly daft/stupid in-comic (at least with their weird ritualistic society), they are also known for expressing a deep hatred for undead (mostly due to undeath being Hel's domain). I understand that they haven't heard the question from Dvalin yet, but why would they willingly accept a Hel majority in their council vote?

I get that it's a funny punchline, that bureaucracy triumphs good sense, but that's out of character for the dwarven race.

[Peelee]

I envy you, sir-madam-or-preferred-honorific, that your life has let you believe this level of stupidity is implausible.

Hell, on a bad day *I* can reach that level!

[Psychronia]

I feel like I should be more annoyed or upset with this development than I am.

It's goofy, it's fun, and it is definitely...*sigh* definitely realistic.

Kudos on that one guy for making a perception check or something, I guess.

[factotum]

This comic makes no sense whatsoever

Why are Dwarven Elders meeting round a WOODEN table?

No sense whatsoever

Yeah, it would be like a king making his throne out of the melted-down swords of his defeated enemies just to show the others what will happen if they make any trouble...completely nonsensical. :smallbiggrin:

[Thecommander236]

Can I just say that I'm annoyed when the story has to be driven forward by the characters being utter ****ing idiots?

[Cazero]

Following proper procedure in a chamber that turn people who don't into stone is idiocy now?

[Kantaki]

Can I just say that I'm annoyed when the story has to be driven forward by the characters being utter ****ing idiots?

:smallconfused:Err... Isn't that the norm with this comic?:smallconfused:

[Bacon Elemental]

Following proper procedure in a chamber that turn people who don't into stone is idiocy now?

I actually think this is a point a lot of people have been overlooking! I imagine that, not knowing the stakes (This is an uncommon meeting of non-politician aristocrats who dont want to be here very much), the council members are in fact likely to be highly averse to doing anything which might technically be a breach of dwarven law. They're not like, lawyers. The vampires probbably know better than the councillors what the relevant sections of extremely rules-as-written law are.

edit: missed the main point i was making: Aka the council members dont want to be turned to stone for no good reason, and their attitude towards the summons from Lord Dvalin (Who is notorious for making the clan chiefs gather and vote for anything asked of him) is so dismissive that I'm sure they assume its going to be about divine sandwiches or similar.

[woweedd]

Can I just say that I'm annoyed when the story has to be driven forward by the characters being utter ****ing idiots?

I’m pretty sure the rest of the council will be dominated in short order. Rich probably would have just cut to that but, well, that wouldn’t have been very funny.

[ijuinkun]

edit: missed the main point i was making: Aka the council members dont want to be turned to stone for no good reason, and their attitude towards the summons from Lord Dvalin (Who is notorious for making the clan chiefs gather and vote for anything asked of him) is so dismissive that I'm sure they assume its going to be about divine sandwiches or similar.

Mmmm, sacrilicious.

[Peelee]

I’m pretty sure the rest of the council will be dominated in short order.

I'll take that bet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1157.html).:smalltongue:

[Wizard_Lizard]

This comic makes no sense whatsoever

Why are Dwarven Elders meeting round a WOODEN table?

No sense whatsoever

Thrones made from the skulls of enemies?

[warmachine]

Wild guess here, but I'd say spontaneously making up laws probably isn't in their legal system. Or, if it is, it'd go the other way.
Depends on how the magical building defines law and who gets to decide it. No set of rules can define what to do in every situation, hence why judges, chairmen and DMs exist. If a D&D character runs against a strong wind, the DM has to make an impromptu rule. A judge can rule a person in contempt of court on the spot. Of course, there are rules and conventions governing adjudicator's powers and we're guessing how much leeway the Lord Speaker has but discretion about the uninvited in formal meetings is common. For a lawful society, as no other non-members seem to be present, it's probably an expected courtesy to ask the Speaker for unusual meeting changes first, such as non-member presence, letting the Speaker get away with unilateral order to evict, then later accept courteous requests.

I would have expected a Speaker to know how to exploit his power. But a politician being an idiot is not surprising.

[Jay R]

I'm sure this has no grand overall philosophical meaning except that the heroes of the comic will have to solve the problem, not an assembled council.

In D&D, nobody saves the world except the PCs.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can I just say that I'm annoyed when the story has to be driven forward by the characters being utter ****ing idiots?

Your definition of "driving the story" seems to be at odds with the real definition.

Or, alternatively, you have now decided to complain about Elan's subplot from 500 strips ago. Not sure which.

Grey Wolf

[Rrmcklin]

Following proper procedure in a chamber that turn people who don't into stone is idiocy now?

I hadn't actually forgotten about that, but I didn't consider the full extent of what that could mean, so thanks for pointing that out. It actually makes me much less conflicted about the situation now.

[danielxcutter]

As has been mentioned earlier by multiple people, this entire situation is so ridiculously specific it's actually not that weird at all. The Exarrgh and "Sandy" are fairly high-level, the vampires know the system like the back of their hands - better, possibly; how well do YOU know the back of yours? - so they know exactly to game it, and the Council itself has likely been little more than a symbolic cultural thing for a very long time so they have no idea how this vote will be whatsoever.

Granted, even for dwarves they appear to have more than a few rocks in their heads, but at least that's funnier.

[Worldsong]

The laws of narrative demand that the council won't be able to stop this without the help from the Order of the Stick, or at the very least Durkon and his family.

Which I find a tad annoying because that means most potential solutions can't work because most potential solutions aren't outside of the grasp of the council.

I was considering the possibility that there were some laws which almost everyone had forgotten but which Durkon knows of since he read the entire book, but that'd mean that the vampires have built their entire plan around the hope that nobody who they fail to dominate happens to remember the counter to their strategy. Which isn't impossible but it'd feel a bit lame if Durkon charged into the meeting and stopped the vampires with an action the council could have taken themselves if they just happened to think of/remember it.

Looking at the resources available to Durkon and the OotS which the council definitely doesn't have the main things are fighting power and the fact that they're still outside of the blue barrier and can still rig something which would be in defiance of dwarven law if it was done inside the blue barrier during the meeting.

Right now the best I can think of is that Durkon knows of a way to legally challenge the vampires inside the blue barrier to a duel. The council wouldn't be able to get away with that since, everything else aside, they don't look like high level combatants who stand a good chance of beating down a vampire on their own without preparations.

[deuterio12]

I'm sure this has no grand overall philosophical meaning except that the heroes of the comic will have to solve the problem, not an assembled council.

In D&D, nobody saves the world except the PCs.

Reminder that the council only ended up half manipulated by vampires because one of the PCs created all those dominating spawns

And then around a zillion high-level NPCs had to show up to support the non-vampire PCs.

This, can you imagine how this would go on an actual D&D campaign?

Players: Crap, our cleric turned to team evil, what can we do?
DM: Ok, your cleric's high ex-lover shows up.
Players: Still not gonna be enough against that huge vampire army and their dominated minions.
DM: Sure, here's the cleric's mom and an army made of her acquaitances including people you had no hints of even existing and that is greater than the greatest dwarven military force actually that just got owned by the vampires. You don't mind them taking the spotlight for the next sessions, right?
Players: Sure, go ahead.

[The MunchKING]

better, possibly; how well do YOU know the back of yours?

Mythbusters tested that one. Turns out people know the back of their hand really well.


I don't need a book to tell me about mine. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) :D

[woweedd]

Reminder that the council only ended up half manipulated by vampires because one of the PCs created all those dominating spawns

And then around a zillion high-level NPCs had to show up to support the non-vampire PCs.
Well, technically, it was a soulless elemental hunger, born from rage and hatred, pupperting his body and memories, but eh.

Sidenote: i'm totally gonna steal the whole inner conflict thing if I ever do a game where a PC becomes a vampire...Except have the spirit actually be controlled by the player, even though it's a separate character in-universe. Have the PC argue with their own darkside. That could make for some awesome roleplaying.

[danielxcutter]

Mythbusters tested that one. Turns out people know the back of their hand really well.


I don't need a book to tell me about mine. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html) :D

Hah! Okay, fair.

[jwhouk]

As I think of this, I'd have to say this is like giving a meeting of a local school board the power to nuke the world.

[danielxcutter]

As I think of this, I'd have to say this is like giving a meeting of a local school board the power to nuke the world.

To be fair, they pretty much were about as important as a local school board. Until now, of course.

[Ganbatte]

Can I just say that I'm annoyed when the story has to be driven forward by the characters being utter ****ing idiots?

Sure you can, and it's a perfectly valid sentiment.

[Quebbster]

Reminder that the council only ended up half manipulated by vampires because one of the PCs created all those dominating spawns

And then around a zillion high-level NPCs had to show up to support the non-vampire PCs.

This, can you imagine how this would go on an actual D&D campaign?

Players: Crap, our cleric turned to team evil, what can we do?
DM: Ok, your cleric's high ex-lover shows up.
Players: Still not gonna be enough against that huge vampire army and their dominated minions.
DM: Sure, here's the cleric's mom and an army made of her acquaitances including people you had no hints of even existing and that is greater than the greatest dwarven military force actually that just got owned by the vampires. You don't mind them taking the spotlight for the next sessions, right?
Players: Sure, go ahead.

What "great military force" are you talking about? The vampires attacked the Temple of Thor after the day shift went home, so it wasn't heavily guarded. Then they dominated the guards of a mostly ceremonial council. The vampires racked up quite a body count, True, but they haven't gone up against an army.

[Worldsong]

What "great military force" are you talking about? The vampires attacked the Temple of Thor after the day shift went home, so it wasn't heavily guarded. Then they dominated the guards of a mostly ceremonial council. The vampires racked up quite a body count, True, but they haven't gone up against an army.

I'd pay money to see them face a real army. I'm pretty sure they'd get rolled over.

[The MunchKING]

I'd pay money to see them face a real army. I'm pretty sure they'd get rolled over.

It's a self-aware D&D Parody. SO I guess it depends on how Genre-Aware the army's outfitters and troops are.

[woweedd]

It's a self-aware D&D Parody. SO I guess it depends on how Genre-Aware the army's outfitters and troops are.
Not very. In-genre behavior tends to be the sorta thing a professional is specifically trained NOT to do. Listen to a cop or soldier rant about how cops or soldiers act in movies if you don't believe me. Also, the army would probably still be ****ed. These are high-level Clerics. Each of them is basically a Person of Mass Destruction.

[The MunchKING]

Not very. In-genre behavior tends to be the sorta thing a professional is specifically trained NOT to do. Listen to a cop or soldier rant about how cops or soldiers act in movies if you don't believe me. Also, the army would probably still be ****ed. These are high-level Clerics. Each of them is basically a Person of Mass Destruction.

Oh. I assumed by "Real Army" Worldsong meant "in OOTS" as opposed to just some guards. If we're looking at it from a real-world perspective, High explosive rounds will get past a LOT of DR.

[woweedd]

Oh. I assumed by "Real Army" Worldsong meant "in OOTS" as opposed to just some guards. If we're looking at it from a real-world perspective, High explosive rounds will get past a LOT of DR.
True enough, but it's not like Clerics are without explosive attacks. If you mean in OOTS army...Let's see how Tarquin's fared against the Order...Not so great. Heck, Roy alone could probably take down any amount of Level 1 Warriors.

[Rrmcklin]

True enough, but it's not like Clerics are without explosive attacks. If you mean in OOTS army...Let's see how Tarquin's fared against the Order...Not so great. Heck, Roy alone could probably take down any amount of Level 1 Warriors.

I mean, I don't think that's particularly fair. The Order was basically on defense the entire time, and had to flee for any chance of leaving their alive, they didn't beat them.

[Themrys]

Following proper procedure in a chamber that turn people who don't into stone is idiocy now?

Do we know that the only possible way to follow proper procedure is to not do anything about the dominated dwarves?

I'm sure they could stall for time if they wanted, at the very least.

The disturbing thing is that they look genuinely happy. Not worried at all. The only person who looked really worried for a short time is the vampire.


Still, it makes sense as parody of real life politics as well as parody of D&D. Real life is self-explaining, and D&D, well, we have seen the protagonists behave utterly stupid because they failed their perception rolls. We have also seen Haley convince a guy that he is a kangaroo with a nonmagical skill that she merely magically enhanced, if I remember correctly.

[Kish]

Well, technically, it was a soulless elemental hunger, born from rage and hatred, pupperting his body and memories, but eh.

Sidenote: i'm totally gonna steal the whole inner conflict thing if I ever do a game where a PC becomes a vampire...Except have the spirit actually be controlled by the player, even though it's a separate character in-universe. Have the PC argue with their own darkside. That could make for some awesome roleplaying.
Someone made a game (https://smile.amazon.com/Wraith-Oblivion-2nd-World-Darkness/dp/1565046005/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Wraith%3A+the+Oblivion&qid=1561216546&s=gateway&sr=8-1) about that.

[woweedd]

I mean, I don't think that's particularly fair. The Order was basically on defense the entire time, and had to flee for any chance of leaving their alive, they didn't beat them.
Fair enough, but the point is, a group of Clerics would stand a pretty good shot of taking down any number of NPC Warriors as needed.

Someone made a game (https://smile.amazon.com/Wraith-Oblivion-2nd-World-Darkness/dp/1565046005/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Wraith%3A+the+Oblivion&qid=1561216546&s=gateway&sr=8-1) about that.
Yeah, but that's having each PC's shadow be played by ANOTHER PC's player, which, forgive me, seems both very different and like a bad idea: Not only does it mean you're requiring everyone to play two characters, but you're giving players an actual in-game mechanic designed to screw over each other, which...could be fun with a VERY good group, but mainly seems like it'd lead to hurt feelings. Plus, it doesn't help that Wraith is possibly the most BLEAK freaking game ever invented. Seriously: There are rumors that, in playtesters, the game was known to INDUCE THE SYMPTOMS OF CLINICAL DEPRESSION: That is a level of dark cynicism Warhammer WISHES it could achieve.

[Fyraltari]

Fair enough, but the point is, a group of Clerics would stand a pretty good shot of taking down any number of NPC Warriors as needed.
Who said armies had to be made of NPC Warriors? Azure City's had a whole bunch of people with PC classes, I don't see why the Dwarven Realms would be any different.

[PlaguetheRoamer]

I would like to take this opportunity to applaud Rich's abilities as a writer and his restraint in handling the subject-strip is funny enough just from comedic timing without having to draw real world comparisons in our heads. I appreciate how much he respects his audience.

But I'm leaning on Saluriel's side on the forums. If some of the commentors want to make snide comments about how much they think "this mirrors real life", the ones that disagree should be free to say "no actually in real life none of this ever happened."

So how much real life politics is allowed guys? Either ALL of it is ok, or NONE of it is ok.

[woweedd]

Who said armies had to be made of NPC Warriors? Azure City's had a whole bunch of people with PC classes, I don't see why the Dwarven Realms would be any different.
Since when? The Saphie Guard were all back in the throne room, and, outside the Order themselves, most of their front line were lacking in PC class levels.

[woweedd]

I would like to take this opportunity to applaud Rich's abilities as a writer and his restraint in handling the subject-strip is funny enough just from comedic timing without having to draw real world comparisons in our heads. I appreciate how much he respects his audience.

But I'm leaning on Saluriel's side on the forums. If some of the commentors want to make snide comments about how much they think "this mirrors real life", the ones that disagree should be free to say "no actually in real life none of this ever happened."

So how much real life politics is allowed guys? Either ALL of it is ok, or NONE of it is ok.
No one is specifically calling out anything. That's just your reading. Point is, no specifics.

[Fyraltari]

Since when? The Saphie Guard were all back in the throne room, and, outside the Order themselves, most of their front line were lacking in PC class levels.

Wrong, Hinjo was on the front lines and Lien at the pier, Sangwann was the front lines too and the High Priest of the Twelve defended the dungeon. There's also Tsukiko and the Rogue guy but they don't really count. Had he not died the literal day before Telporting Drunk Wizard Guy would probably have been part of the defenses as well.

[woweedd]

Wrong, Hinjo was on the front lines and Lien at the pier, Sangwann was the front lines too and the High Priest of the Twelve defended the dungeon. There's also Tsukiko and the Rogue guy but they don't really count. Had he not died the literal day before Telporting Drunk Wizard Guy would probably have been part of the defenses as well.
Fair enough, but they still lost, so...

[Cazero]

Do we know that the only possible way to follow proper procedure is to not do anything about the dominated dwarves?

I'm sure they could stall for time if they wanted, at the very least.
The Cobalt elder tried a motion to postpone the council at a later date. It failed miserably in a comedic fashion.
But let's be fair. If that's not an attempt to deal with the issue by stalling, I don't know what is.


We have also seen Haley convince a guy that he is a kangaroo with a nonmagical skill that she merely magically enhanced, if I remember correctly.It was a yellow-footed rock wallaby. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)

[woweedd]

The Cobalt elder tried a motion to postpone the council at a later date. It failed miserably in a comedic fashion.
But let's be fair. If that's not an attempt to deal with the issue by stalling, I don't know what is.
Truly, he is what we all wish for in our politicians.

[Fyraltari]

Besides I don't see how concentrating the SG on a particular point of strategic importance makes them not part of the army.

Fair enough, but they still lost, so...
And they were facing another army with its own (very) high level characters so that evens out.

[woweedd]

Besides I don't see how concentrating the SG on a particular point of strategic importance makes them not part of the army.

And they were facing another army with its own (very) high level characters so that evens out.
True. I concede. The point I was trying to make is that A. Azure City is quite exceptional and B. most of the high-level characters were kept in reserve specifically for the eventuality of the enemy breaking through. Of course, a better point to that would be that Xykon took them all out in about 3 seconds, only failing because of that Ghost Martyr trick, but either way, I see your point.

[Cazero]

Truly, he is what we all wish for in our politicians.
Verily, we should all aspire to be more like the Cobalt elder : elegant, law abiding, observant, good-mannered, righteous, and slightly delusional about the good will of others.

[Themrys]

The Cobalt elder tried a motion to postpone the council at a later date. It failed miserably in a comedic fashion.
But let's be fair. If that's not an attempt to deal with the issue by stalling, I don't know what is.


I don't know, I thought he seriously thought they would postpone. That's not what I meant by stalling.

I would have wished for a Vaarsuvius-style wall of text which would have left half of the council asleep before he was finished talking. Hopefully the vampire half.

[The MunchKING]

I don't know, I thought he seriously thought they would postpone. That's not what I meant by stalling.

I would have wished for a Vaarsuvius-style wall of text which would have left half of the council asleep before he was finished talking. Hopefully the vampire half.

Undead are immune to sleep. They just pretend when it's funny. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)

[Peelee]

Fair enough, but the point is, a group of Clerics would stand a pretty good shot of taking down any number of NPC Warriors as needed.

Someone wrote a comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) once taking issue with that stance. :smalltongue:

[Bacon Elemental]

Someone wrote a comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) once taking issue with that stance. :smalltongue:

It was somewhat undercut later by a small gaggle of badly hurt high-level characters low on spells surviving for several minutes against a gigantic army of low-level mooks, however.

[woweedd]

Someone wrote a comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) once taking issue with that stance. :smalltongue:
That's NPC Warriors against other NPC warriors.

[Worldsong]

Someone wrote a comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) once taking issue with that stance. :smalltongue:

Thanks for the link.

Unless every aspect of the battle is working in your favour or you've got one of those gamebreaking combos prepared facing an army eventually delivers the problem that you're out of health points and spell slots while the other side is still throwing more soldiers at you. Attrition and the power of numbers are no joke.