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Karnitis
2019-06-21, 03:01 PM
I have a group of four Lv.9's, who will be investigating a criminal underground. I plan on the main villains being twin tabaxi rouges. The fight doesn't have to be super hard (they're rogues, not fighters), but I want it to be a challenge.

I know one of the books has NPCs for the spellcasters and martials, is there one for a rogue too (I don't have it in front of me)? And if so, does anyone know what the CR is, so I can judge is 2x would be a reasonable fight?

The other option I toyed with was just making them out of PC classes, maybe level 10 since there's two of them. Admittedly, it's mostly to assuage my desire to make PCs while I DM, but I want to know if that's a viable strat or not.

1) Is there an existing Rogue-type creature of CR 8+?
2) What level should I make 2 PCs?
3) Which option is better?

JNAProductions
2019-06-21, 03:13 PM
I generally find cosmetics products to not make good villains. :P

Volo's has most of the PC-esque monsters. Outside that, look for humanoid monsters and just reflavor.

Rukelnikov
2019-06-21, 03:16 PM
MM has a CR 8 Assassin, and its exactly what it says on the can.

There's a CR 5 Master Thief in Volo's, which, as JNA said, has most of the classed NPCs.

Karnitis
2019-06-21, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=JNAProductions;23989430]I generally find cosmetics products to not make good villains. :P
[QUOTE]

Son of a ... I'm blaming autocorrect and a bad keyboard.

Anyway, that's just what I'm looking for. Two assassins probably work well.

JNAProductions
2019-06-21, 03:34 PM
[QUOTE=JNAProductions;23989430]I generally find cosmetics products to not make good villains. :P
[QUOTE]

Son of a ... I'm blaming autocorrect and a bad keyboard.

Anyway, that's just what I'm looking for. Two assassins probably work well.

It looks like, according to Kobold Fight Club, two Assassins is a Deadly encounter by the books for four level 9 PCs.

One thing I would do is tweak the statblocks a little bit-just to make them feel different. Keep the numbers largely the same, but make them FEEL different.

Innocent_bystan
2019-06-21, 03:50 PM
My gut feeling is that the encounter with the rogues shouldn't be a straight up combat. It should be more of a skill challenge.

Maybe they engage in combat with the rogues, for the first half of the encounter. But the rogues turn of the lights, climb to higher ground, walk on a tightrope towards a unseen exit, throw a dozen flasks of alchemist fire and hide in a natural cave system while executing brutal hit and run tactics. And if it's apparent that they can't win, just run tactics.

Any villain in their lair should have an exit strategy and a combat strategy that plays to their strengths. In the rogues' case that's skills and mobility.