The level 4 conundrum

[Setharious]

So I was just wondering if people find the same problem I do when it comes to making characters. The campaigns I tend to be apart of, never seem to to beyond level four by much. I think I the highest level I have gotten to was six. So now, whenever I make a character, I need to make sure they are doing great things by level four, which usually means ditching flavor, and forgetting about multiclassing if I want that ability score improvement, or that feat. Even tending to push me towards variant human for a feat. I end up feeling very stuck. Does anyone else deal with this at all?

[Man_Over_Game]

So I was just wondering if people find the same problem I do when it comes to making characters. The campaigns I tend to be apart of, never seem to to beyond level four by much. I think I the highest level I have gotten to was six. So now, whenever I make a character, I need to make sure they are doing great things by level four, which usually means ditching flavor, and forgetting about multiclassing if I want that ability score improvement, or that feat. Even tending to push me towards variant human for a feat. I end up feeling very stuck. Does anyone else deal with this at all?

It's kinda true for me. Most of my tables seems to run into problems around level 5.

I think it's mostly due to:

Player scheduling
DM's being stressed out


So attempting to solve those two problems is probably the key to success at your table.

Have one person (probably not the DM, more on that), hash out team scheduling. Mark down family events, holidays, etc. where certain players can't participate, and plan around them. Try not to push off a game longer than a single week. That kind of stuff.

As for the DM, focus on making his life as easy as possible. It's his job to make sure that the rest of the table is having fun. He's the ONLY person who's doing that for you, so make his job as easy as possible. Make sure he's not contributing towards food when the rest of the table is, offer to play at your location instead of his, work around his schedule, and offer to take over menial tasks unrelated to actions at the table (like managing the group schedule). It does not matter how stressful it is on the players, because it's much more stressful on the DM.

Do that, and your tables will have a lot more longevity and lasting friendships.


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As for determining what to do by level 4, I think it's just important to plan around synergies. You can multiclass just fine before that, but you shouldn't multiclass willy-nilly. Mixing Clerics and Druid levels don't get you much, but mixing Clerics with Rangers, or Druids with Monks, can be a very valid strategy.

[StoicLeaf]

The group I dm for got to level 12 in the last campaign, I'm aiming for 15-16 in the current one.
I dislike high level campaigns because combat is rather swingy in 5e and creating encounters that are challenging becomes difficult.
Not only that but you end up fighting 8 winged, 3 headed, cosmic wilderbeest.
I like my iconic d&d enemies, dammit!

I can't see why level 5+ is a problem. Generally levels 7-9 are a really nice sweet spot for me as a DM; players have choice, can multi-class into something fun and I have a wide variety of relatable monsters to throw at them.

[Man_Over_Game]

The group I dm for got to level 12 in the last campaign, I'm aiming for 15-16 in the current one.
I dislike high level campaigns because combat is rather swingy in 5e and creating encounters that are challenging becomes difficult.
Not only that but you end up fighting 8 winged, 3 headed, cosmic wilderbeest.
I like my iconic d&d enemies, dammit!

I can't see why level 5+ is a problem. Generally levels 7-9 are a really nice sweet spot for me as a DM; players have choice, can multi-class into something fun and I have a wide variety of relatable monsters to throw at them.

I think it's less of having poor/few choices to make, but that the tables disband before hitting that level.

[Stone-Ears]

My group consists of 5 guys where all but 1 of us has a family/significant other in their life. A lot of times, our games are postponed because of family or SO wants to do something with them so they have to postpone our sessions.

What we've done is, if it's been a while since we've played, we just start a new campaign at the level where we left off so we're not re-rolling level 1 characters every time.

We are now at level 5 and we shall see what our new group make up is after tonight!

[Man_Over_Game]

My group consists of 5 guys where all but 1 of us has a family/significant other in their life. A lot of times, our games are postponed because of family or SO wants to do something with them so they have to postpone our sessions.

What we've done is, if it's been a while since we've played, we just start a new campaign at the level where we left off so we're not re-rolling level 1 characters every time.

We are now at level 5 and we shall see what our new group make up is after tonight!

That's pretty damn smart.



I did something similar, where the party was a part of an adventuring guild, and the characters they played could be swapped out at varying levels. So if one person shows up after not playing for a month, he's playing the backup that you requested from the guild a few days ago for your demon hunting mission. It meant that players could drop out and return at any given point in time, and everyone's progress was relevant for the guild. Was a lot of fun.

[Zakhara]

So I was just wondering if people find the same problem I do when it comes to making characters. The campaigns I tend to be apart of, never seem to to beyond level four by much. I think I the highest level I have gotten to was six... Does anyone else deal with this at all?

I assume your group is happy with 5e, but my advice would be to try older editions. They're designed for more episodic (and yes, lethal) play, which is very agreeable with tight schedules.



What we've done is, if it's been a while since we've played, we just start a new campaign at the level where we left off so we're not re-rolling level 1 characters every time.

Or this. This is genius.

[FrancisBean]

I did something similar, where the party was a part of an adventuring guild, and the characters they played could be swapped out at varying levels. So if one person shows up after not playing for a month, he's playing the backup that you requested from the guild a few days ago for your demon hunting mission. It meant that players could drop out and return at any given point in time, and everyone's progress was relevant for the guild. Was a lot of fun.

I've got a similar campaign idea I haven't yet used in 5e, designed purely as a "filler" campaign for when the real campaign isn't available. Everybody is a member of the local Adventurer's Guild. If you die, you build a new character of the same level and WBL. There's a bulletin board where people post "Heroes Needed!" notices, along with payout values. The idea is that the group picks the mission on the week prior, I build it, and we play it on the next session. Every single D&D trope is on the table, of course -- you did meet in a bar, after all!

I'm still designing the graffiti for the latest bulletin board. "The League of Extraordinary Men" --> "The League of Extraordinary Humanoids" --> "The League of Extraordinary Living Beings" --> "Hey! Stop being lifeist! -S.vZ" --> "Shut UP, Strahd, nobody cares!" --> etc.

[dgnslyr]

To me, the Vuman problem is more of a symptom of the bigger issue. There's not a lot of choices to make from levels 1-3, and the fact that Vumans get to make choices that other races don't (i.e. feat choice) is a pretty sensible reason why they're so appealing.

The solution, then, is not necessarily to nerf Vumans, but to start the game at higher levels. There's no rule that says you're always obligated to start the campaign at level 1, so stop playing at those levels if you're tired at playing at those levels, and start the game at level 4+, where the Vuman advantage is slightly less impactful.

[xroads]

Our groups has the same issue as well. I've yet to make double digits in a 5e D&D game.



What we've done is, if it's been a while since we've played, we just start a new campaign at the level where we left off so we're not re-rolling level 1 characters every time.


That hasn't worked out for us so well. Usually when we reconvene after a hiatus, the DM wants to move on to some other story or game system (can't cast stones though, since I'm one of those DMs :smallbiggrin: ).

The style of play we've had the most luck playing long term are "Monster of the Week" style games in a modern setting. Games where it's very easy for characters to drop in/out and because of other in game commitments (ex. jobs). And where the GM can rotate and not have to worry about disrupting someones setting or campaign.

[bendking]

I do agree this is somewhat of a problem, and I've been thinking on it for the past few days.
There are a few simple solutions to this in my mind, ordered by power level:
1. Allow every race to trade his +2 for a feat.
2. Allow every race to trade his +2 for +1 and a feat.
3. Give every race a feat at level 1.

[Ronnocius]

So I was just wondering if people find the same problem I do when it comes to making characters. The campaigns I tend to be apart of, never seem to to beyond level four by much. I think I the highest level I have gotten to was six. So now, whenever I make a character, I need to make sure they are doing great things by level four, which usually means ditching flavor, and forgetting about multiclassing if I want that ability score improvement, or that feat. Even tending to push me towards variant human for a feat. I end up feeling very stuck. Does anyone else deal with this at all?

Yes this happens in my games as well. I often find my group never gets through the 5e adventuring day in a 3 hour session. When you also take into account a 6 member party it results in slow leveling. My current game has run 30 weekly sessions since August 2018 and just now a few of the people who regularly show up have hit level 5.

[Keravath]

The highest I played to in 1e was about 12-15. Most games went to high single digits. However, higher level play in earlier editions was far less balanced in my experience. On the other hand, in 5e I currently have a 14, 13 and a bunch of tier 1 and tier 2 characters because I play Adventurer's League.

AL allows for modern schedules and folks with real lives. If you can't make it one week you just cancel your booking of a spot and someone else takes it. It isn't ideal from the perspective of "continuity". Depending on what you are playing it can be more like a series of one shot adventures played with the same character.

The folks playing with you, the characters and even the DM may change week to week or day to day. There are opportunities however to play entire hard covers which can be played under AL rules and you show up for as much of it as you can manage though it is best to try to make most of the sessions. There are also sets of AL adventures that are linked into mini-story lines. Each module can typically be run in about 4 hours.

One of the advantages of AL is that, if you are interested, your characters will reach level 20. There are tier 4 modules that allow for high level play.

Also, if you are a DM looking for higher level scenarios, many of the AL modules are actually pretty good in terms of including reasonably balanced encounters for the entire range of player levels from 1-20. I haven't played tier 4 but some of the encounters I have seen and heard about look very cool, challenging and fun without being extremely "swingy" or liable to TPKs (though it is always possible depending on luck and perhaps party composition).

Anyway, it is perhaps not an ideal solution, but for people like me with real life commitments and a dearth of time, AL is a opportunity to play D&D that might be worth taking a look at.

[elyktsorb]

I'm going to say the biggest factor is luck.

I'm currently playing a 5e game that I started in January 2018, I've been playing since level 3, and we're currently level 13. We've had a lot of game drops, but we just keep coming together. Hell, my game last thursday got cancelled, but we all were like, whelp, maybe next week. I think we once went a whole month without a game, and we usually do 1 game every week.

But yeah, I found this group on Roll20, I was just looking for a new Thursday game, and I found one. I knew none of these people before, but now we've been playing together for almost 2 years. In that time I've also played in 3 other games, 2 of which started and died within a couple of months, and the 3rd of which is still ongoing and has been going on for 3 months now. In that one I started out at lvl 1 and now I'm lvl 4.