What races are stereotypically a class? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Man_Over_Game

2019-06-21, 04:00 PM

Drow
Two
Scimitars

I'm not even mad about this one, because Drow are bad races to play, Drow don't actually have a good stat spread for the cliché, Drow don't have good stats to be a Ranger.

Really, I'd just be happy if someone wanted to play a Drow. Still haven't seen one at my table. And if I did, and he rode up with TWF as a Beast Master Ranger, I wouldn't even need to punish him. He's done it all by himself.

stoutstien

2019-06-21, 04:04 PM

Does it count that elfs where a class back when?

JumboWheat01

2019-06-21, 04:15 PM

Sticking with the PHB races, let's see...

Dwarf: Barbarian, Cleric and Fighter are all pretty common thoughts when thinking of Dwarf. Paladin is also up there, but no where near as common as those three.

Elf: For High Elves, Wizards quickly come to mind. For Wood Elves, Rangers and Druids pop up the fastest. Drow, unfortunately, have Ranger pop up because of Drizzt, but Rogue also seems relatively common.

Halfling: Rogues. Yeah, that's about it. It's fun going against that idea type.

Human: Fighter, Monk, Paladin and Ranger all seem to be relatively common.

Dragonborn: Paladin and Sorcerer (particularly Draconic) seem the most common to me.

Gnomes: Bards, Rogues (Arcane Trickster in particular,) and Wizards (Illusionist) definitely come into mind with gnomes. "Not serious" classes.

Half-elf: Bards definitely, though Wizard also pops up fairly often, as do Rangers.

Half-orc: Barbarian and Fighter. You'd think they were nothin' but dumb muscle.

Tiefling: Rogues and Warlocks, the "not to be trusted" classes.

Tvtyrant

2019-06-21, 04:20 PM

Goliaths are always barbarians or clerics in my experience, no one wants a Goliath wizard or rogue.

No1ofIntrst

2019-06-21, 04:33 PM

Sticking with the PHB races, let's see...
Halfling: Rogues. Yeah, that's about it. It's fun going against that idea type.

I would also say a little bit of bard

Zakhara

2019-06-21, 04:35 PM

I feel like it's a trick question. As long as D&D classes remain dependent on set attributes and races have various attribute bonuses, they're inevitably tied to some classes whether they like it or not.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 04:36 PM

Goliaths are always barbarians or clerics in my experience, no one wants a Goliath wizard or rogue.

I think many grapple with the idea of an 8 foot tall light grey skinned beefcake being able to sneak as well as the goblin, through someone has probably made a build for it. Put the points into intimidate instead and just force people to not mention you were there.

Aren't Tortle Barbarians popular, or did they fade away when I wasn't paying attention?

Man_Over_Game

2019-06-21, 04:42 PM

I think many grapple with the idea of an 8 foot tall light grey skinned beefcake being able to sneak as well as the goblin, through someone has probably made a build for it. Put the points into intimidate instead and just force people to not mention you were there.

Aren't Tortle Barbarians popular, or did they fade away when I wasn't paying attention?

Tortle and anything is popular. Tortle and Monk. Tortle and Barbarian. Tortle and Sorcerer. Does it need AC, but you're feeling lazy? TORTLE.

RedMage125

2019-06-21, 04:43 PM

I'm not even mad about this one, because Drow are bad races to play, Drow don't actually have a good stat spread for the cliché, Drow don't have good stats to be a Ranger.

Really, I'd just be happy if someone wanted to play a Drow. Still haven't seen one at my table. And if I did, and he rode up with TWF as a Beast Master Ranger, I wouldn't even need to punish him. He's done it all by himself.

I disagree that drow are a "bad race to play". Sunlight Sensitivity isn't all that hard to get around, and +2 DEX/+1 CHA is pretty good for a lot of classes.

That said, the very first time I ran a game (in 3.0), one player, who had never played D&D before (and was unfamiliar with how common the trope was), but HAD read a lot of Salvatore's books, made a 1/2 drow Ranger who dual-wielded scimitars. He died in the first session, with me rolling in the open, after taking a critical hit from a halberd by a hobgoblin. Dropped to exactly -10. I figured that the dice gods had spoken.

Anyway, on topic:

Dwarf: Cleric or Fighter. One thing I find kind of ironic, however, is that in 3.5e and 5e, dwarves actually also make great Wizards. But the fluff with them tends to lean towards "arcane magic is for pansies".

Elf: Agreed that "wood elves" tend towards Ranger and "High Elves" tend towards Wizard.

Halfling: Rogue. Hands-down. Although for awhile in 3.5e, there seemed to be a lot of halfling Monks.

Dragonborn: Fighter or Paladin. In 4e, they made fantastic Sorcerers as well. And it thematically fits.

Gnome: Used to be Illusionist. Then 3.5 tried to make Bard a big thing for gnomes, but I didn't see it take off in practice. In 5e, I've only ever seen a gnome Rogue. But I'd say iconically, it would be Artificer (but I tend to think of Rock Gnomes first).

Half-Elf: In 2e, it was Rangers. In 3.x, it was...actually they were a terrible race in that edition, didn't see many. In 5e, seems to be a lot of Warlocks and Lore Bards.

Half-orc: Barbarian. Always the most iconic half-orc.

Tiefling: 4e wanted them to be Warlocks, but they usually weren't Fiend-Pact ones. In 5e, Tieflings seem to be popular as Wizards and Warlocks.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 04:48 PM

Tiefling: 4e wanted them to be Warlocks, but they usually weren't Fiend-Pact ones. In 5e, Tieflings seem to be popular as Wizards and Warlocks.

I'm not sure what's worse, tieflings having better stats for fey-pact warlocks or bards instead of sorcerer or warlock, or the whole...Teenage awkward phase tieflings went through in 3.X.

Humans? Decent at charisma, no penatly. Fiends? Buckets of charisma. Human + Fiend? Loads of charisma? Human + Human + tiefling? Oh no, eeeeew, charisma penalty for you.

Were gnome druids not a thing? I remember there being forest gnomes in 3.X and Pathfinder seems to be pushing it with their iconic. Gnomes got super fey in 4e.

Tvtyrant

2019-06-21, 04:49 PM

I think many grapple with the idea of an 8 foot tall light grey skinned beefcake being able to sneak as well as the goblin, through someone has probably made a build for it. Put the points into intimidate instead and just force people to not mention you were there.

Aren't Tortle Barbarians popular, or did they fade away when I wasn't paying attention?

IDK, is an 8 foot person that much worse at hiding than a 6 foot person? Especially compared to the three foot one? If a human Rogue makes sense in a world with pixies and halflings I think a Goliath works okay.

Although the image of the Mountain from GoT appearing mysteriously behind someone and taking their wallet is hilarious.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 05:12 PM

IDK, is an 8 foot person that much worse at hiding than a 6 foot person? Especially compared to the three foot one? If a human Rogue makes sense in a world with pixies and halflings I think a Goliath works okay.

When that eight feet is accompanied by more muscle then a weightlifting competition, YES.

Also, who is making six feet rogues? I feel like that's a thing, even if being five feet would make a bit more sense in some cases.

Rukelnikov

2019-06-21, 05:12 PM

Elf - Fighter/Wizard, Wizard or Ranger
Dwarf - Fighter or Cleric
Halfling - Bilbo
Gnome - Illusionist
Human - Paladin
Half-Orc - Barbarian
Half-Elf - Bard (somewhat)

Tvtyrant

2019-06-21, 05:33 PM

Millstone85

2019-06-21, 05:39 PM

Githzerai live in monasteries, all statted ones have superior unarmed strikes, and PCs get +2 Wis.

They must be commonly played as monks.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 05:40 PM

Orc and Half Orc Rogues are pretty common IME.

...I'd like to think that perhaps these orcs favor their lithe, sleek human side and don't resemble human refrigerators that never missed a dose of their daily steroid. Nothing says you can't have a five foot half-orc, after all.

Or they don't sneak around so much and instead just stab really, really, really hard.

RedMage125

2019-06-21, 05:41 PM

IDK, is an 8 foot person that much worse at hiding than a 6 foot person? Especially compared to the three foot one? If a human Rogue makes sense in a world with pixies and halflings I think a Goliath works okay.

Although the image of the Mountain from GoT appearing mysteriously behind someone and taking their wallet is hilarious.

I once made a character for Palladium's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle And Other Weirdness who was an anthropomorphic elephant.

Had ranks in sneaking (picture cartoon elephant hiding behind a tiny tree) as well as pickpocketing. Wasn't good at it. Didn't need to be, he was still like 7' tall.

Imagine being on a subway...you feel someone trying to lift your wallet out of your pocket. You turn, and see...a 7 foot tall, 400+ pound elephant with your wallet in his trunk. He leans forward and in a deep, slow voice says, "I'm taking your wallet...do you mind?"

"Do you mind?" became a running gag with that one.

JumboWheat01

2019-06-21, 05:47 PM

BarneyBent

2019-06-21, 05:59 PM

Half-Elf - Bard or Paladin (obvious reasons)
Goliath - Barbarian
Firbolg - Druid
Dwarf - Fighter or Cleric
Gnome - Wizard/artificer

Brookshw

2019-06-21, 06:06 PM

What's the default coupling for warforged?

Millstone85

2019-06-21, 06:12 PM

What's the default coupling for warforged?Probably artificer. It is the class that created them, so it is kind of poetic.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 06:13 PM

Probably artificer. It is the class the created them, so it is kind of poetic.

Talk about training your replacement. I think this might have been intended, but I see a lot of Warforged Barbarians. 'What do you mean there's a wall?' sort of thing.

RedMage125

2019-06-21, 06:18 PM

What's the default coupling for warforged?
I'd say Fighter, honestly.

Shifters would be Rangers, or perhaps Druids.
Changelings would be Rogues or Bards
Kalashatr would be Psions (Mystics?)

Talk about training your replacement. I think this might have been intended, but I see a lot of Warforged Barbarians. 'What do you mean there's a wall?' sort of thing.

"Walls are just doorways still in denial. I help them with that."

Zetakya

2019-06-21, 06:20 PM

I've seen Fighters of every race. Even Gnomes.

Hail Tempus

2019-06-21, 06:52 PM

When that eight feet is accompanied by more muscle then a weightlifting competition, YES.

Also, who is making six feet rogues? I feel like that's a thing, even if being five feet would make a bit more sense in some cases. Male tigers can be twice as big as a Goliath. And a tiger’s prey typically won’t see it coming until it’s too late.

Nature is full of big, stealthy predators.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 07:05 PM

Male tigers can be twice as big as a Goliath. And a tiger’s prey typically won’t see it coming until it’s too late.

Nature is full of big, stealthy predators.

Yes, but not bipedal ones. The tiger is a little closer to the ground and has better weight distribution.

The point is mostly non-serious, through I might have some questions if a player of a Goliath PC went on and on and about their biceps and then wanted to be sneaky in a dark alley as a DM.

JackPhoenix

2019-06-21, 07:08 PM

Or maybe it's second-hand sneakiness. The observer sees them being "sneaky," and simply decides, for their own safety, that they're not going to bother the "sneaky" one or point out how badly their doing and just go on with their lives.

They just paint themselves purple. Have you ever seen a purple orc? Of course you didn't... that's because purple is the sneakiest color.

Brookshw

2019-06-21, 07:27 PM

I'd say Fighter, honestly.

Huh, no one went with a Robocop reference. I'm surprised.

Hail Tempus

2019-06-21, 08:10 PM

Yes, but not bipedal ones. The tiger is a little closer to the ground and has better weight distribution.

The point is mostly non-serious, through I might have some questions if a player of a Goliath PC went on and on and about their biceps and then wanted to be sneaky in a dark alley as a DM.There are plenty of bipedal predators in our world who spend a lot of time in the gym before strapping on their gear and hunting their prey. If you see pictures of special ops soldiers, many of them are pretty buff.

So, I don’t see a real problem with a Goliath being stealthy. Goliaths live in the mountains, hunting for survival.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 08:12 PM

There are plenty of bipedal predators in our world who spend a lot of time in the gym before strapping on their gear and hunting their prey. If you see pictures of special ops soldiers, many of them are pretty buff.

I want to know what country has 8 foot tall super soldiers, and how to avoid it.

And again, I wasn't being completely serious, and would probably give the player as much flak as say, a brightly colored tiefling. Yeah, maybe don't be red, yanno?

Tvtyrant

2019-06-21, 08:46 PM

I want to know what country has 8 foot tall super soldiers, and how to avoid it.

And again, I wasn't being completely serious, and would probably give the player as much flak as say, a brightly colored tiefling. Yeah, maybe don't be red, yanno?

What about a pastel tiefling? Millenial pink?

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 08:53 PM

What about a pastel tiefling? Millenial pink?

I'd probably create a new rule that if your character is described in trendy colors and these newfangled generational terms, the character just fails at everything. This also goes for getting names for colors from paint chips or make up palettes.

Back on topic, why are elves treated as a singular race? You could make the argument that you got the Wizard/Gish elves, the Treehugging elves in weapon or spellcasting flavors, and the drow who are either sorcerers or rangers for...Some reason.

Tvtyrant

2019-06-21, 09:09 PM

I'd probably create a new rule that if your character is described in trendy colors and these newfangled generational terms, the character just fails at everything. This also goes for getting names for colors from paint chips or make up palettes.

Back on topic, why are elves treated as a singular race? You could make the argument that you got the Wizard/Gish elves, the Treehugging elves in weapon or spellcasting flavors, and the drow who are either sorcerers or rangers for...Some reason.

Same reason humans are I gather; they are cultural and not biologically different.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-21, 09:29 PM

Same reason humans are I gather; they are cultural and not biologically different.

They aren't? I was always under the impression that the subraces were actually distinct in terms of how they are physically, since drow can see in the dark and wood elves are faster. Not to mention they look a bit different. Or maybe it's just weird fey stuff.

Either way, do they count as separate races for occupying different niches within the cultural landscape of Dungeons and Dragons?

Zetakya

2019-06-21, 09:40 PM

They aren't? I was always under the impression that the subraces were actually distinct in terms of how they are physically, since drow can see in the dark and wood elves are faster. Not to mention they look a bit different. Or maybe it's just weird fey stuff.

I once wrote a whole load of background for a campaign and somehow Elves ended up being a race driven by Lamarckian rather than Darwinian evolutionary processes.

So if you put any Elf in the Underdark for long enough they would turn into a Drow. It was only really noticeable at Elven lifespan timescales though.

Arkhios

2019-06-22, 10:37 AM

Huh, no one went with a Robocop reference. I'm surprised.

Since you brought that up, would it be a Paladin (just about any oath would do, except maybe not Ancients), or an Inquisitive Rogue?

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-22, 10:55 AM

Since you brought that up, would it be a Paladin (just about any oath would do, except maybe not Ancients), or an Inquisitive Rogue?

No mention of religion or god by ol' Robocop himself, so I would say not to paladin, maybe a rogue, maybe a fighter, depending on how you have handled the various house rules.

I thought Murphy's own religion wasn't even mentioned until the second movie?

Tanarii

2019-06-22, 11:08 AM

My head canon is usually:
Hill Dwarf (Knowledge or Life) Cleric
Mountain Dwarf (Devotion) Paladin
High Elf (Eldritch Knight) Fighter
Wood Elf (Hunter) Ranger
Lightfoot Halfling (Wild or Storm) Sorcerer
Stout Halfling (Open Hand) Monk
Rock Gnome (Illusionist) Wizard
Forest Gnome (Arcane Trickster) Rogue
Half-elf (any) Bard
Half-Orc (any) Barbarian
Tiefling (Infernal) Warlock

Some alternatives:
Dwarf Fighter/Cleric multiclass
Elf Fighter/Wizard multiclass
Halfling Fighter/Rogue multiclass
Halfling (any class) Sailor
Gnome (Thief) Rogue Guild Artisan (locksmith)
Half-Orc (Infernal) Warlock Outlander
Tiefling (Assassin) Rogue Criminal (or Spy)

The multiclass alternatives come from having played AD&D.

In my head, Halflings are always either pastoral non-adventuring types, caravan or river barge gypsies, sailors (with a penchant for piracy), or members of the Hin Fist.

Tieflings being effective masters of disguise depends on not using the stupid 5e alien looks, of course.

Arkhios

2019-06-22, 11:14 AM

No mention of religion or god by ol' Robocop himself, so I would say not to paladin, maybe a rogue, maybe a fighter, depending on how you have handled the various house rules.

I thought Murphy's own religion wasn't even mentioned until the second movie?

RAW, Paladins gain their powers from within, from their own conviction to their cause, not from a deity. They can choose to worship one, of course, but it's no different from how a Fighter would worship a god. Robocop/Murphy is "devoted" to upholding the law, so it wouldn't be far fetched to play him as a paladin. Besides, "copping around" fits paladins' mentality.

No brains

2019-06-22, 11:45 AM

Kenku seem to be pegged as rogues.

I'd sort of like to see Kenku clerics. The idea of people perfectly reciting and copying what they are told lends itself perfectly to a monastic tradition. The kind of monks/monasteries that don't teach punching things, that is. But a Kenku monk probably wouldn't be bad either.

Supposedly Triton and Yuan-Ti work well as paladins, but I've never seen anyone take a chance on playing either race.

KOLE

2019-06-22, 11:56 AM

My thoughts:

Hill Dwarf: Cleric. Dwarves are known for strong ties to tradition, as well as being tough, rough and tumble stalwart warriors. Cleric exists perfectly at that intersection.
Mountain Dwarf: Fighter. Dwarf fighters are always a solid pick.
-
High Elf: Wizard, full stop. Given their life span, their somewhat removed nature from other races, it makes sense that they would dedicate their lives to understanding the unknowable.
Wood Elf: Druid/Ranger. They have strong ties to nature, and revere secret and sacred places. They are definitely the ur-example of Druids.
Drow: Stereotypically scimitar ranger. But I think Rogue or Warlock is more fitting given their hated nature.
-
Halfling: Rogue, full stop. They are naturally sneaky and hard to find. Rogue doesn't have to mean criminal; it can mean stealthy ambusher and tactical attacker, people who prefer to stay off the frontlines. This suits them perfectly.
-
Human: The whole point of humans is to NOT have a stereotype. Given their versatility, I would say any. However, for the sake of discussion, I'll say Fighter, as they're the most versatile/generic class available, and they need the versatility afforded by humans to round out their abilities and not just be boring weapon swingers.
-
Dragonborn: Draconic Sorcerer, full stop.
-
Gnome: Alchemist! Oh, right. Wizard. But I think their free thinking impish nature doesn't suit the disciplined scholarly nature of Wizard.
-
Half-Elf: The ultimate Bards! Everybody likes Half-Elves, they are prone to wandering and watching the world. It fits too well.
-
Half-Orc: Let's see... Big? Check. Strong? Check. Angry? Check. Barbarian? Check.
-
Tiefling: Almost skipped this because I thought the answer was too obvious, but I feel like Warlock is one class a whole race can't really have, as it's not super easy to find a patron, so I'd say Rogue because of their outcast nature.

Potato_Priest

2019-06-22, 12:05 PM

I'd sort of like to see Kenku clerics. The idea of people perfectly reciting and copying what they are told lends itself perfectly to a monastic tradition. The kind of monks/monasteries that don't teach punching things, that is. But a Kenku monk probably wouldn't be bad either.

Along those lines, I actually think of the trickery cleric as the archetypal choice for kenku. Their abilities are all very on-theme for the kenku race, and their channel divinity allows them to forge a version of their own selves.

Plus, if you're going to choose such an awful race, you may as well pick an underwhelming subclass to go with it.

PhoenixPhyre

2019-06-22, 12:49 PM

Back on topic, why are elves treated as a singular race? You could make the argument that you got the Wizard/Gish elves, the Treehugging elves in weapon or spellcasting flavors, and the drow who are either sorcerers or rangers for...Some reason.

As a setting thing, I separated the elves. High elves and wood elves (each with real names) are separate races and they don't like each other much. Different (but related) languages.

Drow, well, drow don't exist as such. There's a race of dark skin, underground living elves, but they ain't drow. Same with shadar-kai, they're elf-related but they ain't elves.

Schwann145

2019-06-22, 01:08 PM

When that eight feet is accompanied by more muscle then a weightlifting competition, YES.

Also, who is making six feet rogues? I feel like that's a thing, even if being five feet would make a bit more sense in some cases.

Erevis Cale, Assassin and Cleric, Chosen of Mask was around 6' tall iirc. :smallwink:

No brains

2019-06-22, 01:15 PM

Along those lines, I actually think of the trickery cleric as the archetypal choice for kenku. Their abilities are all very on-theme for the kenku race, and their channel divinity allows them to forge a version of their own selves.

Plus, if you're going to choose such an awful race, you may as well pick an underwhelming subclass to go with it.

I am caught between the honor of being quoted in a sig and the shade of my favorite picks being dissed. I just made a choking noise which might the the human version of a record scratch. lol:smalltongue:

Regarding steretypical classes for races, it's odd that goblins are SO thought of as rogues, that Nimble Escape is totally redundant with Cunning Action, making a goblin playing a rogue kind of a waste.

The same is kind of true for mountain dwarves. If I get medium armor and martial weapon proficiency, why not try to apply them where they might count such as with a greenflame blade wizard or something? Going fighter or paladin with those profs wastes the subrace pick, but at least there you get a whole 2 strength to compensate.

Arkhios

2019-06-22, 02:06 PM

DeTess

2019-06-22, 02:10 PM

Goliaths are always barbarians or clerics in my experience, no one wants a Goliath wizard or rogue.

I've played a goliath wizard once. At least, no one was stupid enough to suggest that 'using a greataxe' and 'flying into a controlled fury' where not wizard features.

Tvtyrant

2019-06-22, 02:15 PM

I've played a goliath wizard once. At least, no one was stupid enough to suggest that 'using a greataxe' and 'flying into a controlled fury' where not wizard features.

Sounds like the best kind of Wizard.

If I was playing a Wizard Goliath I migjt go no-intelligence Wizard and then play him as a melee character. There are enough save free spells I think it coukd work.

Eärendle

2019-06-22, 03:07 PM

I think many grapple with the idea of an 8 foot tall light grey skinned beefcake being able to sneak as well as the goblin, through someone has probably made a build for it. Put the points into intimidate instead and just force people to not mention you were there.

Aren't Tortle Barbarians popular, or did they fade away when I wasn't paying attention?

I was thinking about a Goliath Ranger or Rogue just yesterday. He would be the cliché crossfit junkie possibly with a little parkour added who sees Adventuring as a semi-cooperative extreme sport. Some inspiration came from Brad Pitt's character in Burn After Reading and MCU Drax.

verbatim

2019-06-22, 03:21 PM

I think it's interesting to look at popular class race combinations that aren't primarily driven by their stat synergy.

TWF Drow Ranger was mentioned earlier in this thread
Hafling/Gnome Barbarian I've seen in a suprisingly high percentage of games, purely for the sake of irony

No brains

2019-06-22, 03:38 PM

I've played a goliath wizard once. At least, no one was stupid enough to suggest that 'using a greataxe' and 'flying into a controlled fury' where not wizard features.

Were you the 'Kill Anything Wizard'? https://youtu.be/TakUnZtB3dE?t=658 "Summon Battleaxe!" "Cone of Battleaxes!" "Eldrtich Battleaxe!" "Conjure Greater Battleaxe!"

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-22, 04:21 PM

I was thinking about a Goliath Ranger or Rogue just yesterday. He would be the cliché crossfit junkie possibly with a little parkour added who sees Adventuring as a semi-cooperative extreme sport. Some inspiration came from Brad Pitt's character in Burn After Reading and MCU Drax.

I feel like this character wouldn't so much sneak up on people, but drop down onto them. I'd be okay with that.

JumboWheat01

2019-06-22, 04:30 PM

I find it's kinda funny people would assume that ranger must be a racial thing for drow just because Drizzt was one (and before anyone starts, 4th edition "didn't happen")

Drizzt was an oddity among his kin. In more than one way; one of which was the unusual eye color (lavender blue, as opposed to the usual red). Him becoming a ranger was unorthodox for drows (at least before 4th edition made a mess). Those of them who excel in melee are (mostly) either fighters or rogues, plain and simple.

The problem is that Drizzt comes to mind so easy when thinking of Drow, that his class, a Ranger, also easily pops up. I have encountered plenty of other Drow through various video games, but none come to mind anywhere near as quickly as the scimitar wielding ranger, and I've never actually read any of the books he's shown up in! You could say it's like a meme that's far more memorable than the source material.

Nagog

2019-06-22, 04:45 PM

I have a player in my game playing a Goliath Artificer simply to flip that trope on it's head, and he has expressed to me the difficulty of playing such a character who's stats are strong in all the wrong places for his play style and class, so while these tropes are old and relatively boring, they're in place due to them being good matchups for needed stats/bonuses.

NatureKing

2019-06-22, 05:58 PM

They just paint themselves purple. Have you ever seen a purple orc? Of course you didn't... that's because purple is the sneakiest color.

I... Think I have the basis for my next character, thank you.

Zetakya

2019-06-22, 07:06 PM

The problem is that Drizzt comes to mind so easy when thinking of Drow, that his class, a Ranger, also easily pops up. I have encountered plenty of other Drow through various video games, but none come to mind anywhere near as quickly as the scimitar wielding ranger, and I've never actually read any of the books he's shown up in! You could say it's like a meme that's far more memorable than the source material.

Funny, despite Drizzt I would have said Cleric was still the archetypal class for female Drow, and probably Wizard for males.

I have also seen Drow Monk played spectacularly, in a 3.5e campaign where Drow Monks worked by a Sith-like Master-Student relationship and eventually had to off their Master to survive and progress.

rlc

2019-06-22, 08:18 PM

I figure drow would probably most likely be assassin/swashbuckler rogues and shadow/favored soul sorcerers.

I'm saying favored soul because their stats don't match up with clerics.

Zetakya

2019-06-23, 12:26 AM

Yeah, but the whole "Female Cleric of Lolth is in charge of the entire society" is a big part of the Drow schtick in pretty much every setting.

rlc

2019-06-23, 06:41 AM

Right, I agree, but the cleric doesn't benefit from the bonus to Charisma.
Really, it would've made more sense for drow to get Wisdom instead, so that the clerics and rangers would make sense.

Droodicus

2019-06-23, 07:03 AM

Dragonborn. I'm not super familiar with but I think if a magical warrior. Paladin or eldritch knight
Dwarf. Wise and stubborn warriors. Hill dwarves as clerics, mountain dwarves as fighters. Though my favourite dwarf archetype is the gutbuster brigade.
Elf.
Wood. One with nature and inherently magical. Ranger
High. Highly magical. Wizard with a level or two fighter
Drow. Female clerics. Male wizard or fighter.
Gnome. Rogues or wizards.
Deep gnomes. Clerics or fighters.
Half elf. Bard or ranger. Wanderers who can fit in anywhere but belong nowhere
Half orc. Fighter barbarian
Halfling. Rogue or bard.
Human. Surprisingly I think druid as most if not all the stereotypical druids I'm familiar with are humans rather than elves. Every other class is semi muddied by other races.
Tiefling. Sorcerer. Inherent bloodline magic they have to control, classic.

Tanarii

2019-06-23, 08:40 AM

Right, I agree, but the cleric doesn't benefit from the bonus to Charisma.
Really, it would've made more sense for drow to get Wisdom instead, so that the clerics and rangers would make sense.Rangers never made sense. They were just popularized by one specific character.

Dual wielding, however, made sense since it was a special ability of Drow. And renegade 'good' Drow were a UA thing because cavaliers.

Female Clerics made sense from a cultural perspective, not a stats perspective. Male magic-users and/or warriors made sense because Elves and that was their schtick.

Charisma being a Drow thing ... uh, pass. Can't say from a historical perspective if that's more appropriate than say Int or Wis.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-23, 11:12 AM

I think cleric makes sense for lady drow, but any cleric of Lolth isn't likely to defect, so that's more of an NPC thing. You could just give NPC drow wisdom and say that they have passed such and such trial or whatever to get it.

I feel like charisma for drow seeking to leave their society makes a bit more sense since they had to hide their intentions for long enough to get out. They'd also need it on the surface as to convince others that they too, hate the other drow and please put the pointy object down.

...If drow have charisma and are swashbucklers, could they be the new vampires without the necrophilia connotations?

Tanarii

2019-06-23, 11:28 AM

Rangers never made sense. They were just popularized by one specific character.
Correction to myself, Drow could be Rangers. And Rangers had to be good. And PC Drow had to be outcasts.

Much as it pains me to say it, drizzle wasn't anything new destroying the image of dark elves. Gygax and Unearthed Arcana did it all.

Looks like I can only blame Salvatore for being a no talent hack who can't write. :smalltongue:

rlc

2019-06-23, 05:59 PM

PCs are special snowflakes anyway, so Drizzy is just one of the best known.

PhoenixPhyre

2019-06-23, 06:31 PM

PCs are special snowflakes anyway...

This is actually a core part of my setting. PCs are all Sanctioned Adventurers (members of an international "Adventurers Guild", really more of a paramilitary special-forces/troubleshooter group), and SAs are weird by definition. Because normal people don't go out hunting monsters or digging around in the bones of dead civilizations, and those that do don't generally survive. Not all SAs are PCs, but all PCs are SAs.

As a result, I can
* justify all sorts of race/culture, class, and background combinations.
* treat PC names as being noms de guerre rather than actual given names
* put together parties consisting of people who'd never meet in a regular fashion
* justify them knowing lots of "meta" stuff about monsters and cults and stuff--they undergo a training course.
* have a hard break between backstory and game-play. While it may intrude later, for now you're a SA and SAs are adventurers first. Even if you were an artisan and left a shop, someone else is running it until you retire as a PC and as an SA.
* allow the players to do "crazy" things that no normal person in the setting would do, without getting run out of town on a rail. Everyone knows SAs are weird--it's basically their job description. Just let them pass by, sell them stuff, and let them do their thing.
* prevent them from (directly) meddling in politics/becoming kings during the campaign. SAs aren't allowed to hold official office without resigning from the Guild, and resignation means retirement of the character as a PC.

So PCs are special. That's why they're PCs--if they weren't special, we wouldn't follow them around and watch their antics. We'd follow someone who was special instead. Normal people doing normal things are boring, to me and my players at least. We want the ones who end up infiltrating a Slaneeshi (or setting-equivalent anyway) cult party dressed as an attractive woman and then throwing demons off of mayan-esque pyramids. We want the ones who go toe-to-tentacle with a Kraken-shaped Demon Prince at the center of the Astral Plane. Etc.

Wizard_Lizard

2019-06-23, 10:20 PM

PCs are special snowflakes anyway, so Drizzy is just one of the best known.

Very special snowflakes....

Witty Username

2019-06-23, 10:57 PM

Right, I agree, but the cleric doesn't benefit from the bonus to Charisma.
Really, it would've made more sense for drow to get Wisdom instead, so that the clerics and rangers would make sense.

I personally like how the Eberon races are handled for this reason, their flexible stat distribution allows for more archetypes. I personally don't get the divide on elf sub races along mental stats.

Edit: I tend to try to avoid stereotypical characters, but since it is out of habit at this point there are only a few I am aware of: half-orc barbarian, halfling rogue, dwarf fighter, gnome illusionist.

Particle_Man

2019-06-24, 12:15 AM

I guess there is "Stereotype" as in fitting various tropes and then "what this race is surprisingly good at".

So Wood Elf Monks are suprisingly good monks (add mobility to really have a speedster). Half-elf Sorcerers are surprisingly good sorcerers. But are they stereotypes?

For stereotypes, well:

Dwarf Fighters, Halfing Rogues, Half-elf Rangers, Elf Wizards and Rangers, I mean, Tolkein's shadow is a long one!

Human Paladin comes up a lot in the literature too (Hey, Paksennarion! Hey, Three Hearts and Three Lions dude! Hey Lancelot!)

I think Goliath and Barbarian goes together like cookies and milk, myself, but I haven't heard much of Goliaths outside of D&D games. Big strong guys that live in the mountains seems to fit, though.

RedMage125

2019-06-24, 10:06 AM

I find it's kinda funny people would assume that ranger must be a racial thing for drow just because Drizzt was one (and before anyone starts, 4th edition "didn't happen")

Drizzt was an oddity among his kin. In more than one way; one of which was the unusual eye color (lavender blue, as opposed to the usual red). Him becoming a ranger was unorthodox for drows (at least before 4th edition made a mess). Those of them who excel in melee are (mostly) either fighters or rogues, plain and simple.
Couple things...

In 2e (and I presume earlier, but that was the first I played), Rangers HAD to be LG, NG, or CG. So, it is explicitly an unsual class choice for a drow. 3e dropped alignment restrictions on Rangers.

Also, what does 4e have to do with Driz'zt?

Charisma being a Drow thing ... uh, pass. Can't say from a historical perspective if that's more appropriate than say Int or Wis.

I believe 3.0 had them as +2 INT (with a +/-2 CHA based on gender, which 3.5e later made a straight +2 CHA).

As I recall, if you reverse-engineered the stats for drow in the Monstrous Manual, you got a bonus to INT.

rlc

2019-06-24, 10:28 AM

...If drow have charisma and are swashbucklers, could they be the new vampires without the necrophilia connotations?

Maybe it isn't a stereotype as much as my own head canon that drow are are rogues. I obviously know about the magic users, and the slavery, but I figure tha they're mostly into guerrilla warfare, and rogues--especially swashbucklers--fit that perfectly, and the Charisma bonus definitely adds to that

GreyBlack

2019-06-24, 10:59 PM

GreyBlack

2019-06-24, 11:03 PM

Couple things...

In 2e (and I presume earlier, but that was the first I played), Rangers HAD to be LG, NG, or CG. So, it is explicitly an unsual class choice for a drow. 3e dropped alignment restrictions on Rangers.

Also, what does 4e have to do with Driz'zt?

I believe 3.0 had them as +2 INT (with a +/-2 CHA based on gender, which 3.5e later made a straight +2 CHA).

As I recall, if you reverse-engineered the stats for drow in the Monstrous Manual, you got a bonus to INT.

4th Edition is the first edition that really pushed Drow as both a playable race and as a Charisma based race. That's why 4e just got weird; it was a departure from the standard to that point lore.

Rukelnikov

2019-06-25, 01:34 AM

Couple things...

In 2e (and I presume earlier, but that was the first I played), Rangers HAD to be LG, NG, or CG. So, it is explicitly an unsual class choice for a drow. 3e dropped alignment restrictions on Rangers.

In 3e they had a small restriction, you couldn't have your same race as favored enemies unless you were evil.

I believe 3.0 had them as +2 INT (with a +/-2 CHA based on gender, which 3.5e later made a straight +2 CHA).

As I recall, if you reverse-engineered the stats for drow in the Monstrous Manual, you got a bonus to INT.

I remember them as being +2 Dex/Int/Cha, -2 Con. Don't remember if they changed between 3.0 and 3.5.

4th Edition is the first edition that really pushed Drow as both a playable race and as a Charisma based race. That's why 4e just got weird; it was a departure from the standard to that point lore.

They were playable and had a bonus to Cha in 3e

IMO Drow's stereotype is Female Cleric of Lolth.

Revaros

2019-06-25, 08:24 AM

Basically any character/class combo in Critical Role etc. :p

But seriously, anything with a proclivity towards goodie-twoshoes (e.g. Paladin, Cleric, Divine Soul Sorc) and Aasimar.

Also, anything that can be dark and brooding (e.g. Rogue, Warlock, two-weapon Ranger) and Drow.

RedMage125

2019-06-25, 04:24 PM

In 3e they had a small restriction, you couldn't have your same race as favored enemies unless you were evil.
I think that was just 3.0. I don't have my books right now, but the SRD doesn't mention that restriction. I do remember it, though.

It was also problematic, because a Good or neutral Elf who hated Drow couldn't take Humanoid (Elf).

I remember them as being +2 Dex/Int/Cha, -2 Con. Don't remember if they changed between 3.0 and 3.5.
It did. In 3.0 males were +2 DEX/INT, -2 CON/CHA.

They were playable and had a bonus to Cha in 3e

Yes, this.

GreyBlack

2019-06-25, 04:56 PM

In 3e they had a small restriction, you couldn't have your same race as favored enemies unless you were evil.

I remember them as being +2 Dex/Int/Cha, -2 Con. Don't remember if they changed between 3.0 and 3.5.

They were playable and had a bonus to Cha in 3e

IMO Drow's stereotype is Female Cleric of Lolth.

Drow in 3.x historically had a +2 dex, +2 int, +2 cha, and -2 con, so they weren't dedicated Cha casters/characters in 3.x the way they have been in 4e onwards. What's being said isn't that they didn't have a bonus, but rather that the drow were codified as a Cha race in 4e, where their bonuses were +2 Dex, +2 cha. Pruning the int bonus did that.

Rukelnikov

2019-06-25, 05:44 PM

Drow in 3.x historically had a +2 dex, +2 int, +2 cha, and -2 con, so they weren't dedicated Cha casters/characters in 3.x the way they have been in 4e onwards. What's being said isn't that they didn't have a bonus, but rather that the drow were codified as a Cha race in 4e, where their bonuses were +2 Dex, +2 cha. Pruning the int bonus did that.

If that's your definition, why aren't they a Dex race instead of a Cha race?

Daghoulish

2019-06-25, 05:49 PM

If that's your definition, why aren't they a Dex race instead of a Cha race?

All elves get a +2 dex, so they are a dex race?

Man_Over_Game

2019-06-25, 05:49 PM

If that's your definition, why aren't they a Dex race instead of a Cha race?

Probably because Dex is so boring, common, and versatile of a stat pick that it's not worth mentioning. Nearly everything grants Dex or Con as a stat increase, and they're so generically good in 5e as stats that it doesn't really matter who you tack it on to. Even a Paladin can use Dex for the majority of saving throws they'll be making.

GreyBlack

2019-06-25, 05:50 PM

If that's your definition, why aren't they a Dex race instead of a Cha race?

Well.... they're both. That said, the Drow magical abilities go back to first edition D&D, so they're going to tend to be more thematically linked to spellcasting classes. It also doesn't help that they're a specific type of Elf; while Elves are generally considered the dex race, the Drow are the charismatic Elves. Specific trumps general.

Rukelnikov

2019-06-25, 05:57 PM

All elves get a +2 dex, so they are a dex race?

Probably because Dex is so boring, common, and versatile of a stat pick that it's not worth mentioning. Nearly everything grants Dex or Con as a stat increase, and they're so generically good in 5e as stats that it doesn't really matter who you tack it on to. Even a Paladin can use Dex for the majority of saving throws they'll be making.

Well.... they're both. That said, the Drow magical abilities go back to first edition D&D, so they're going to tend to be more thematically linked to spellcasting classes. It also doesn't help that they're a specific type of Elf; while Elves are generally considered the dex race, the Drow are the charismatic Elves. Specific trumps general.

:P

My take from all of this is that they were also a Dex race in 4e, and ofc the were also a Cha race in 3.e, but ppl really liked their Cha Drow builds in 4e, and thats why the consider them as such.

Zetakya

2019-06-25, 06:01 PM

Rukelnikov

2019-06-25, 06:03 PM

To be honest - and we're a long way off topic here - but I think that the "You should only ever play classes with a race that has a bonus to their prime stat" thing is overdone, and rules out quite a lot of interesting and fun character classes.

I'm sure nobody tells Lolth that she shouldn't have Clerics.

There is more to D&D than pure build optimisation.

I'm of the mind that, initially, ability score bonuses for races were designed so they would make for good stereotypes. Gimli is a figther, lets make dwarves good a fighters stuff, Bilbo is a thief, lets make hobbits good at thievery, etc.

Honest Tiefling

2019-06-25, 08:07 PM

I'm of the mind that, initially, ability score bonuses for races were designed so they would make for good stereotypes. Gimli is a figther, lets make dwarves good a fighters stuff, Bilbo is a thief, lets make hobbits good at thievery, etc.

And tieflings are good at music, let's make them good bards. And drow are excellent at...Stuff. Let's ALSO make them bards! You're not wrong, but sometimes it goes in odd directions.

There is more to D&D than pure build optimisation.

Am...Am I the only DM who cheats and just fudges stat distributions for NPCs? I mean, in 90% of games you're not going to have a cleric of Lolth, not even in most evil campaigns as a player character, so...Why not?

RedMage125

2019-06-26, 09:47 AM

Am...Am I the only DM who cheats and just fudges stat distributions for NPCs? I mean, in 90% of games you're not going to have a cleric of Lolth, not even in most evil campaigns as a player character, so...Why not?

You are not. When I was a new DM, I used to roll honestly for the stats of NPCs. Then I realized that was holding myself accountable to some "invisible authority" of transparency to the players that they never even saw nor cared about. So now I make NPC's stats whatever I need them to be.

Tanarii

2019-06-26, 10:49 AM

Am...Am I the only DM who cheats and just fudges stat distributions for NPCs? I mean, in 90% of games you're not going to have a cleric of Lolth, not even in most evil campaigns as a player character, so...Why not?No. All monsters (a term which includes NPCs) use whatever stat block the DM makes up. Although if you're using the stat blocks at the end of the MM for NPCs, they recommend modifying by racial mods.