Thought Exercise: Everyone gets a free Fighter gestalt.

[Endarire]

Intro
Greetings, all!

Consider this scenario: All class levels (but not racial hit dice) are gestalted with Fighter levels for purposes of skills, proficiencies, feats, and saves. How does this affect the game's balance if nothing else of note changes?

Assume that Fighter level-granted feats are in addition to any feats granted by other sources at the same level, such as from class, even if they're [Fighter] feats.

Your gestalt side is only Fighter levels, and you can't take Fighter levels on your main side.

Modifier 1
You also get Fighter BAB as part of this gestalt.

Modifier 2
You also get Fighter HP as part of this gestalt.

[Vizzerdrix]

The skills dont matter. Rangers will have the best of both worlds in regards to combat styles, but that isn't too huge. Every caster will rejoice at the D10 HD and free Improved Initiative, and the Mighty wallop line of spells will require jumping through less hoops, so may see more play.

Barbs will enjoy getting extra feats, and rogue will love the BAB. Monks will have to be taken into the other room for a bit with a box of tissues until they can compose themselves over becoming useful.

Paladins will go extinct. Fast replaced by Clerics, but that was bound to happen and is for the best.

Bards will get some use from it, but if your bard has to enter combat, you done messed up. While sorcs won`t have any clue what to do with actual class features.

[Crichton]

While sorcs won`t have any clue what to do with actual class features.

Looks at Sorcy chart, looks at Fighter chart...


What class features? The fighter entry is the shortest in the book. They get... bonus feats.

[weckar]

Do you get access to Fighter ACFs?

[Vizzerdrix]

Looks at Sorcy chart, looks at Fighter chart...


What class features? The fighter entry is the shortest in the book. They get... bonus feats.

And sorcs get a familiar at 1st, then nothing.

[Crichton]

And sorcs get a familiar at 1st, then nothing.

It's not a lot, to be sure, but at least that's an actual class feature. Unless you count Weapon and Armor Proficiencies (which I don't, since that entry exists for every class), the fighter has literally no class features at all. At least the sorcy gets Spells and Familiar as actual features. They're both they same type of blank class-chassis, really, thus my surprise at the comment about a gestalt sorcy//fighter having features, since the fighter is the only class that actually has fewer features than a sorcy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can you use the Thug variant and/or Sneak Attack ACF? What about Armored Mage, or Dungeoncrasher, or Zhentarim Soldier?

[ExLibrisMortis]

It doesn't affect balance much, except that some very low-tier classes become useful (i.e. soulborn/divine mind/monk/samurai), and gishing becomes a bit easier with free base attack. Which I'm quite happy with really.

[Gnaeus]

So:
Most T5s become T4, and a few high scoring T4’s become T3.

Classes like wizard and rogue who didn’t have good fort save get a little extra.

For most of the games classes, almost all that aren’t chasing a particular feat tree, this gestalt looks like:

L1 improved initiative
L2 Martial Study
L4 Martial Stance
L6 martial study
L8 some bs feat
L10 martial study usually Iron heart surge or WRT
L12 martial stance

Mostly Iron heart, but a few outliers for shadow hand, diamond mind, devoted spirit or white raven. There just aren’t a lot of fighter feats that compete with ToB counters for most non-muggles.

[AvatarVecna]

So:
Most T5s become T4, and a few high scoring T4’s become T3.

Classes like wizard and rogue who didn’t have good fort save get a little extra.

For most of the games classes, almost all that aren’t chasing a particular feat tree, this gestalt looks like:

L1 improved initiative
L2 Martial Study
L4 Martial Stance
L6 martial study
L8 some bs feat
L10 martial study usually Iron heart surge
L12 martial stance

Mostly Iron heart, but a few outliers for shadow hand, diamond mind, white raven. There just aren’t a lot of fighter feats that compete with ToB counters for most non-muggles.

I don't entirely agree, I think a houserule like this will make a particular feat tree popular among non-muggles if they get the fighter's BAB: the Combat Form feats from PH2. Improved Initiative almost certainly takes precedent, but Combat Focus, Combat Awareness, and Combat Vigor means Ex +4 Will saves, Fast Healing 4, Blindsight 5 ft, and deathwatch on all adjacent creatures for every fight, and while it's usually pretty expensive investment, these feats will make a solid always-on buff alongside a martial stance. Combat Strike and Combat Stability will be a lot more limited to builds that could really use them, though, and Combat Defense is basically worthless on its own.

However, Combat Defense does have a neat niche use if combined with another feat that requires a good bit of investment: Elusive Target from Complete Warrior, the primary use of which lets you deny your Dodge target their bonus damage from Power Attack while they have to deal with the penalty anyway. That kind of passive no-save debuff on a single enemy can be really handy when you can change which enemy it applies to as an immediate, but because at this point we're talking Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target/Combat Focus/Combat Defense, most people just don't have the feats to invest in a thing like that. But if you're already picking up Combat Focus for some general buffing, and have a ton of feats to spend anyway, this isn't the worst use in the world by far.

EDIT: Deflect Arrows is nice if you're fine spending two feats on it, but casters have other ways to defend from ranged attacks so they might not see this as important.

[Mr Adventurer]

How does it affect the game balance? Warriors get better at warrioring. Medium warriors enjoy it too. Nobody else minds.

[Gnaeus]

I don't entirely agree, I think a houserule like this will make a particular feat tree popular among non-muggles if they get the fighter's BAB: the Combat Form feats from PH2. Improved Initiative almost certainly takes precedent, but Combat Focus, Combat Awareness, and Combat Vigor means Ex +4 Will saves, Fast Healing 4, Blindsight 5 ft, and deathwatch on all adjacent creatures for every fight, and while it's usually pretty expensive investment, these feats will make a solid always-on buff alongside a martial stance. Combat Strike and Combat Stability will be a lot more limited to builds that could really use them, though, and Combat Defense is basically worthless on its own.

However, Combat Defense does have a neat niche use if combined with another feat that requires a good bit of investment: Elusive Target from Complete Warrior, the primary use of which lets you deny your Dodge target their bonus damage from Power Attack while they have to deal with the penalty anyway. That kind of passive no-save debuff on a single enemy can be really handy when you can change which enemy it applies to as an immediate, but because at this point we're talking Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target/Combat Focus/Combat Defense, most people just don't have the feats to invest in a thing like that. But if you're already picking up Combat Focus for some general buffing, and have a ton of feats to spend anyway, this isn't the worst use in the world by far.

EDIT: Deflect Arrows is nice if you're fine spending two feats on it, but casters have other ways to defend from ranged attacks so they might not see this as important.

If you aren’t concerned with the Wisdom 13 investment, and if you plan to start every fight with a successful attack roll to turn your combat focus on, that isn’t a bad plan. Not better than just getting a stance for 2 hp/hit or +2 will saves for everyone in your party, but acceptable for high wis characters who make attacks.

[AvatarVecna]

If you aren’t concerned with the Wisdom 13 investment, and if you plan to start every fight with a successful attack roll to turn your combat focus on, that isn’t a bad plan. Not better than just getting a stance for 2 hp/hit or +2 will saves for everyone in your party, but acceptable for high wis characters who make attacks.

I guess if you're the kind person that thinks 13 is a lot to invest in wisdom then yeah that's a problem? But it's not actually that significant. And the attack isn't required to deal damage, you just need to "make a successful attack". Just call the touch range buff an attack roll to successfully hit your adjacent ally, except they're also not trying to dodge so it's basically auto-hit and now you've delivered a nice buff while also triggering combat focus. And it's not like you can't combine it with a stance anyway, I didn't say maneuvers were garbage, just that not all non-maneuvers are garbage not worth taking.

[chaos_redefined]

So, as already mentioned, fighter feats are limited to mostly fighting things. Martial Study and Combat Focus give some variety, and everyone who doesn't hit things with a stick is taking Improved Initiative.

I would also consider Elusive Target on casters and the like. Combat Focus might be decent on ray casters, if they already have the wisdom, as they make attack rolls. Blinding Spittle on the druid list definitely fits the bill...

I think this gives a bigger leg-up to non-casters than casters, which is perfectly acceptable, but there are a few options for casters, so it won't be the same set of feats every time. Maybe 4 or 5 different things only, though.

[Gnaeus]

I guess if you're the kind person that thinks 13 is a lot to invest in wisdom then yeah that's a problem? But it's not actually that significant. And the attack isn't required to deal damage, you just need to "make a successful attack". Just call the touch range buff an attack roll to successfully hit your adjacent ally, except they're also not trying to dodge so it's basically auto-hit and now you've delivered a nice buff while also triggering combat focus. And it's not like you can't combine it with a stance anyway, I didn't say maneuvers were garbage, just that not all non-maneuvers are garbage not worth taking.

It certainly isn’t worth reallocating your stats for for anyone who isn’t a muggle. It’s 4 feats to get that, all to distract your wizard or cleric or bard from their job by making them make an attack roll on round one. I certainly don’t think a touch buff is a successful attack. But even if it is, it is way worse to force your Cleric to use a touch buff on round 1 of every fight rather than any of the better maneuvers, stances or counters.

Now, on a CoDzilla who is planning on making attacks anyway, and who isn’t sweating the wisdom, it’s not bad. For most non muggles it is inferior.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't think the Combat Focus feats are Fighter feats.

If you're Cleric does take them though, it's a good reason for Persistent Cloud of Knives.

[pabelfly]

I'd want to gestalt an adventuring rogue or a psionic warrior just for the ridiculous amount of bonus fighter feats I'd have.