[3.5] How do creatures called with Planar Binding go home?

[Mr Adventurer]

After calling a creature with a Planar Binding spell, are the only ways it can return home: (a) agreeing to serve you, completing the service, then informing you as described in the spell, (b) using some plane-shifting power it has natively, or (c) breaking the binding and then finding some other way home such as any creature might plane-travel?

The spell says the creature can return home after completing service, but doesn't say anything about that when it talks about breaking the binding.

If this is correct, it's interesting: many creatures you can call don't have planar travel abilities, so you could in theory just keep summoning them and releasing them without making a bargain just to increase the Prime population of such creatures. Could be an interesting plot hook for a summoning bad guy (who'd need to be able to escape his wrathful Evil summons reliably), or raises some weird questions - it's a [Good] act to attempt to bind a celestial, but how do they feel about being called and then left to wander the Prime?

[Mr Adventurer]

Anyone ruled on this recently?

[Bronk]

That checks out. After all, if it had to go back no matter what, it would never be able to attack the caster, one of the drawbacks of the spell. After that, if the creature survives, I guess it's a new wandering monster.

[Mr Adventurer]

Weird. If one assumes that many outsiders actually do want to be on the Prime (c.f. classic demon invasion plots), then it explains why the spell becomes [Evil] - no matter how many orphans you make the demon save, once it's done it can saunter around the Prime for as long as it wants, with a ticket to go home whenever is convenient.

I guess "do not call up that which you cannot put down" and all that!

[Crake]

Weird. If one assumes that many outsiders actually do want to be on the Prime (c.f. classic demon invasion plots), then it explains why the spell becomes [Evil] - no matter how many orphans you make the demon save, once it's done it can saunter around the Prime for as long as it wants, with a ticket to go home whenever is convenient.

I guess "do not call up that which you cannot put down" and all that!

That's why you make sure that part of the deal is to act with expediency in their task, and to report back immediately upon completion, that way they're forced to return to their home plane.

[Psyren]

If this is correct, it's interesting: many creatures you can call don't have planar travel abilities, so you could in theory just keep summoning them and releasing them without making a bargain just to increase the Prime population of such creatures. Could be an interesting plot hook for a summoning bad guy (who'd need to be able to escape his wrathful Evil summons reliably), or raises some weird questions - it's a [Good] act to attempt to bind a celestial, but how do they feel about being called and then left to wander the Prime?

The stuff that can't go home on its own will indeed be stuck on the prime.

Most often, the question "can I mess with outsiders repeatedly/indefinitely" is answered with "how do the gods feel about that?" In particular for the angel one, binding a whole bunch of them is at best likely to be interpreted as playing in the sandbox by the other side. And even in a setting where the deities don't intervene as much (or may not even exist), outsiders have their own agendas and priorities - they're not just sitting around in the Outer planes waiting for a spellcaster with a stick of chalk and some powdered silver to come calling.

You also have to ask the obvious question - if flooding the prime with directionless outsiders is allowed, why haven't a bunch of magi already done it? For a nihilistic group for example, bringing the whole Blood War to our doorstep sounds like a good way to wipe things out. I would guess that something is in place (*points at sig*) to keep them from doing that.

[Segev]

You also have to ask the obvious question - if flooding the prime with directionless outsiders is allowed, why haven't a bunch of magi already done it? For a nihilistic group for example, bringing the whole Blood War to our doorstep sounds like a good way to wipe things out. I would guess that something is in place (*points at sig*) to keep them from doing that.

My general assumption is a combination of there not being that many high-level casters who have both the means and inclination to do this kind of thing, and (despite the possibilities here) the Prime Material being low-grade toxic to the beings - perhaps merely the emotional well-beings - of Outsiders. It's too Orderly, or too Evil, or too Good, or too Lawful, or simply too material. Simply believing in their own existence isn't enough to sustain them. Or, well, it is, but the ideals which they embody are not perfectly represented here, and their very presence, while it has a warping effect, doesn't have the self-defining assertion of Principle that they have in the Outer Planes.

So while, yes, some stay for eons, most wind up finding a way home or going crazy enough to get some adventurers to come together to kill them. Which sends them home, if only to reconstitute over a long period of time.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yeah, I just assume that you'd have to be (a) extraordinarily powerful (almost nobody can cast 5th level spells) and (b) completely bonkers to make a habit of annoying immortal entities.

For those that meet those criteria and have goals that loose outsiders are part of - well, that's just where all those demons and devils come from in your adventures.

[Bronk]

You also have to ask the obvious question - if flooding the prime with directionless outsiders is allowed, why haven't a bunch of magi already done it? For a nihilistic group for example, bringing the whole Blood War to our doorstep sounds like a good way to wipe things out. I would guess that something is in place (*points at sig*) to keep them from doing that.

If nothing else, it's something that would get a bunch of adventurers sent after you.

[Jack_Simth]

That's why you make sure that part of the deal is to act with expediency in their task, and to report back immediately upon completion, that way they're forced to return to their home plane.
Doesn't this start getting into the question of "What counts as 'one service'?"

[Karl Aegis]

The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible.

[Crake]

Doesn't this start getting into the question of "What counts as 'one service'?"

I think reporting back could definitely be counted amongst the conditions of a single service. But at the same time, "one service" could be "Agree to and do not break the terms of this contract I have written", it just depends on how in depth you want to go.

[Psyren]

My general assumption is a combination of there not being that many high-level casters who have both the means and inclination to do this kind of thing, and (despite the possibilities here) the Prime Material being low-grade toxic to the beings - perhaps merely the emotional well-beings - of Outsiders. It's too Orderly, or too Evil, or too Good, or too Lawful, or simply too material. Simply believing in their own existence isn't enough to sustain them. Or, well, it is, but the ideals which they embody are not perfectly represented here, and their very presence, while it has a warping effect, doesn't have the self-defining assertion of Principle that they have in the Outer Planes.

So while, yes, some stay for eons, most wind up finding a way home or going crazy enough to get some adventurers to come together to kill them. Which sends them home, if only to reconstitute over a long period of time.

For the first point, I think the idea is that you don't actually need that many casters. Once they're capable of casting this, nothing really stops them from doing it every single day.save the need to take precautions.

For the second - I do think most outsiders get that sense of unease, but I do find it hard to believe demons and daemons care all that much - they would just wreak havoc and immediately make the place more homey (i.e. more chaotic and evil.) And a CE caller wouldn't really care.

The solution seems to be, particularly for #1, that the precautions they take have a decent chance of failing if used repeatedly.


If nothing else, it's something that would get a bunch of adventurers sent after you.

This is likely the other control.

[Jack_Simth]

I think reporting back could definitely be counted amongst the conditions of a single service. But at the same time, "one service" could be "Agree to and do not break the terms of this contract I have written", it just depends on how in depth you want to go.

Do keep in mind that "one service" is defined by the DM, not the player. Would you call someone "unreasonable" who says they perform multiple services for their employer (say: fetching the mail, answering phones, receiving packages, and cleaning the break room) even all of those activities are spelled out in one employment contract?

[Segev]

For the first point, I think the idea is that you don't actually need that many casters. Once they're capable of casting this, nothing really stops them from doing it every single day.save the need to take precautions.

For the second - I do think most outsiders get that sense of unease, but I do find it hard to believe demons and daemons care all that much - they would just wreak havoc and immediately make the place more homey (i.e. more chaotic and evil.) And a CE caller wouldn't really care.

The solution seems to be, particularly for #1, that the precautions they take have a decent chance of failing if used repeatedly.



This is likely the other control.

My point is that they're rare enough that that "other control" (i.e. adventurers solving the problem with standard application of sword and sorcery) keeps the rare few in check. And yes, the demons and the like wreak havoc, as is their nature. But those, too, are handled by adventurers. The more powerful ones might even become mid-bosses or end-bosses for some campaigns.

I could definitely see "mad conjurer calls forth fiends just for giggles" as a good impetus for a campaign. The conjurer's a good boss for the 5th to 8th level party, and the myriad lower-level evil beings he's let loose form the random encounters and some of the set pieces, with corrupted and allied evil humanoids and the like filling out rosters. And Something Big he let loose winds up being the end boss, as now that they've plugged the hellish leak, they have to clean up the evil mess.

[Psyren]

My point is that they're rare enough that that "other control" (i.e. adventurers solving the problem with standard application of sword and sorcery) keeps the rare few in check. And yes, the demons and the like wreak havoc, as is their nature. But those, too, are handled by adventurers. The more powerful ones might even become mid-bosses or end-bosses for some campaigns.

I could definitely see "mad conjurer calls forth fiends just for giggles" as a good impetus for a campaign. The conjurer's a good boss for the 5th to 8th level party, and the myriad lower-level evil beings he's let loose form the random encounters and some of the set pieces, with corrupted and allied evil humanoids and the like filling out rosters. And Something Big he let loose winds up being the end boss, as now that they've plugged the hellish leak, they have to clean up the evil mess.

Yeah, I think we're in alignment.

Also, isn't this Halaster's MO? He's one of the few that's powerful enough that they can't really deal with him, but he also doesn't completely set them loose either.

[Segev]

Yeah, I think we're in alignment.

Also, isn't this Halaster's MO? He's one of the few that's powerful enough that they can't really deal with him, but he also doesn't completely set them loose either.

Kind-of. He uses custom spells to summon weird things from everywhere to stock Undermountain, because he likes having a wacky mad dungeon to lure in adventurers and do fun experiments. Also, he's insane. At least while he's in Undermountain. (What's weird is he prefers that; when he's sane, he wants to get back.)