PDA

View Full Version : [Base Class]The Palmist (Card-based Pseudocaster)



NecroRebel
2007-10-07, 02:50 PM
Welcome to my second homebrew. This base class idea has been plaguing my mind for a while now, so I’ve now decided to write it out and share. Mostly, I was just looking for a mage-type class that used cards in their spells, a la Magic: The Gathering, and was surprised when I couldn’t find any. As such, I decided to create my own.

The mechanics behind the class are probably closer to the Duel Monsters card game from the Yu-Gi-Oh franchise than Magic, with a surprising amount of inspiration drawn from Pokemon in the summoning card capture system, since I felt that that would be more fun, flavorful, balanced, and easier to run than a Magic-faithful system would be. It may not work out as I hope… So if you have a better idea as to how to run a given section of the class, please feel free to suggest any changes you may have.

Palmist
Thom and his men watched from the trees as a lone man, unarmed, unarmored, and clad only in a simple tunic and trousers walked slowly down their rode. They probably would have ignored him altogether, except that he had a large pack on his back that was clearly heavy. The man reached into his pocket, and Thom tensed. Had he seen them? No, he was merely drawing out a deck of cards to shuffle idly.

Without warning, the man stopped walking and looked around the road before fanning the cards out in his hand. “Welcome to my show, good sirs. May I have a volunteer from the audience? Please, pick a card, any card!” Thom’s men whispered among themselves. Was this man crazy? After a pause, the man continued. “No one wants to volunteer? Fine, then. How about this card?” One lacquered paper appeared from nowhere in his free hand, a card painted with an angry ghost. The card glowed black for an instant, and the bandits heard a horrid scream echo through their minds before all was silent.

Smiling wickedly, the man approached one of the corpses that now littered the road. “Didn’t like that card? Too bad. It’s one of my favorites.” Laughing, he slipped his deck back into his pocket and continued on his way.

Growing out of the ranks of stage magicians and con men, Palmists are an unusual breed. Not quite spellcasters, they are nonetheless very much steeped in arcane power, though not always magic knowledge. Their strength ultimately comes from others, whether it be the beasts they card and enslave or the spells they catch in their magical cards, but once gathered a Palmist can be a force all their own.

In many areas, Palmists are greatly feared. Their ability to seemingly cast any spell makes wizards jealous, particularly since it means that another mage was the source of that spell, their ability to capture creatures and people in magical cards scares the common folk, especially when carded beasts return and fight for the Palmist, and their ability to hide even the largest items within a tiny piece of paper makes the nobles hate them.

Still, among the rogues and crooks they grew up among, a good Palmist can be a tremendous boon to their ability to get the big prizes out and to evade the guard. Who’d expect to find the fifty-foot gold statue of the Emperor in somebody’s sock, anyway?

Adventurers
Like most classes, Palmists can adventure for any number of reasons. Some adventure to find new and exciting cards to add to their collections and decks, some seek wealth or knowledge, some are fleeing from the law. Some even seek to improve the reputations of their type so people don’t always fear them anymore.

Characteristics
Many Palmists are freewheeling and impulsive, tending to rely on their cards and fate to get them out of trouble. They are almost always impudent and more than a little rude as well, particularly towards mages and priests, because only by having spells cast near them (or at them) can they increase their own repertoire. When it is required of them, though, these same men and women can be among the most focused, calm, and polite people around.

Alignment
Due to growing up on the streets and in lawless places, Palmists tend to be Chaotic. Because one of their main abilities involves capturing living beings and enslaving them through magic power, Palmists also tend to lean towards Evil. However, there is nothing really stopping a Palmist from being Lawful or Good.

Religion
Palmists can follow any religion, though most priests look down on them. Even clerics of trickster gods tend to dislike Palmists, who are seen as likely to steal the gods’ blessings from those who they are truly granted to.

Background
Palmists originally grew out of the ranks of Rogues and, to a lesser extent, Bards. As adherents to those older disciplines became more and more aware of the power of magic, many of them learned how to “fake” the skills necessary to use magic contained within various items or written on scrolls. Eventually, people started having their Wizard buddies write scrolls on simple playing cards so that they could be slipped into a deck and used for a secret weapon while gambling. The next step was the tricky part: learning to actually make these magic cards themselves. Once you get there, it’s surprisingly easy to make your entire career out of enchanted cards, so many people actually did so. These are the Palmists.

Races
Palmists are found in virtually any urban race. The skills needed to use card magic rely more on tricky fingers than on mental agility or fortitude, so even the dumber races can be a Palmist without trouble. Still, perhaps predictably, the quicker races are Palmists more often. Halflings, Humans, and Half-Elves make up the majority of the practitioners, followed by Half-Orcs, Elves, and Gnomes. There are relatively few Palmists from other races since they tend to lack the madcap city populations needed to develop the skills.

Other Classes
Palmists tend to get along best with anyone who can’t cast any spells. Rogues in particular work fantastically with a Palmist; after all, they’re really just different areas of skills for the same ends, aren’t they?

Due to their need to gather precast magic into cards to build their decks, Palmists often intentionally antagonize anyone capable of casting spells. As such, people with magical abilities tend to quickly grow annoyed with a Palmist.

Psychic characters usually are reasonably comfortable around Palmists. Most Palmists do not make any attempt to gather psychic powers for their decks, which makes them treat Psychics just like any other non-mage.

Game Rule Information
Palmists have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Dexterity is of tremendous importance for a Palmist, determining how many cards they can have in play at a time, how difficult their spell cards are to resist, and aiding in the actual carding of creatures, items, and spells. Intelligence is also important, increasing the maximum size of a Palmist’s deck as well as providing precious additional skill points.

Charisma is always useful for a Palmist, allowing them to talk their way out of trouble, and Constitution is useful when that doesn’t work, by allowing them to survive trouble that comes.

Alignment: Any; usually Neutral (N), Chaotic Neutral (CN), or Chaotic Evil (CE).

Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills: A Palmist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are as follows: Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Any, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Any, taken individually) (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (4+Int modifier) x 4

Skill Points at each Additional Level: 4+ Int modifier

The Palmist
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Sharpcard, Card: Beast, Trigger Card, Construct Deck, Playing Field

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+3|
+1|Fast Deck 1

4th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|Sharpcard: Magic

5th|
+2|
+1|
+4|
+1|Card: Mundane Item

6th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|Fast Deck 2

7th|
+3|
+2|
+5|
+2|Sharpcard: Silver

8th|
+4|
+2|
+6|
+2|

9th|
+4|
+3|
+6|
+3|Fast Deck 3

10th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|Card: Spell, Sidebar Trigger, Sharpcard: Cold Iron

11th|
+5|
+3|
+7|
+3|

12th|
+6|
+4|
+8|
+4|Fast Deck 4

13th|
+6|
+4|
+8|
+4|Sharpcard: Aligned

14th|
+7|
+4|
+9|
+4|

15th|
+7|
+5|
+9|
+5|Card: Magic Item, Fast Deck 5

16th|
+8|
+5|
+10|
+5|Sharpcard: Adamantine

17th|
+8|
+5|
+10|
+5|

18th|
+9|
+6|
+11|
+6|Fast Deck 6

19th|
+9|
+6|
+11|
+6|Sharpcard: Force

20th|
+10|
+6|
+12|
+6|Card: Plane [/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Palmist. See level progression on Table: The Palmist for more information.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Palmists are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Palmists are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. They are also considered proficient with playing cards, as per the Sharpcard ability.

Sharpcard (Su): In the hands of a Palmist, a simple playing card can be a deadly weapon. At level 1, a Palmist may treat any playing card they wield as a light slashing weapon that deals 1d4 damage, deals double damage on a critical, and threatens a critical on a roll of 20. These cards may be used as thrown weapons with a range increment of 10 feet; after the attack in which they are thrown, they lose their weapon properties until a Palmist retrieves them. At level 4, the card is treated as a magic weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At level 7, the card is treated as silver, at level 10 as cold iron, and at level 16 as adamantine.

At level 3, the Palmist's cards deal +1 damage and give a +1 attack bonus. These bonuses increase by a further +1 every 3 levels after 3.

At level 13, the Palmist may choose to make their cards Lawful, Chaotic, Good, or Evil. Once chosen, all cards the Palmist wields have the same trait. Once chosen the alignment of the cards cannot be changed.

At level 19, the Palmist may choose to have their cards deal magical Force damage instead of Slashing damage.

Card: Beast (Sp): At level 1, a Palmist has the ability to convert creatures into enchanted cards, which they may then use to fight through their other abilities.

Carding a creature is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. To card a creature, the Palmist must be within 30 feet of it and make a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 10 + the creature’s current Hit Points + the combined Spell Levels of all spells the creature is prepared to cast + half the creature's current Power Point total (if the creature cannot cast spells, has no Power Points, or have exhausted all of their spells over level 0 and Power Points, these last values are 0).

If the creature being targeted for carding had been released from a card within 1 hour per the Palmist’s class level, the DC to card it again is only 10 + ¼ the creatures current Hit Points + the combined Spell Levels of all spells the creature is prepared to cast + half the creature's current Power Point total.

Once a creature is carded, the card goes into the Palmist’s sidebar. Any Spells the creature is prepared to cast remain prepared until the creature is released and uses them. Any equipment the creature is carrying falls to the ground, excluding items that are lost with the death of the creature, such as a balor's flame whip.Creatures cannot recover Spells or Power Points while carded.

Trigger Card (Su): At level 1, a Palmist can trigger the magical properties of a card. Once triggered, a card goes to the Playing Field.

Using a card is a standard action that provokes Attacks of Opportunity and requires a Sleight of Hand check. Before level 10, a Palmist can only use cards in their Deck; after level 10, they can trigger cards in their Sidebar at a price (see the Sidebar Trigger ability). The Sleight of Hand DC to activate a card varies depending on the card type and power level. If the Sleight of Hand check is unsuccessful, the card does not activate and goes into the Palmist's sidebar.

For Beast Cards, the DC is equal to 10 + the creature’s Hit Dice. When triggered, the Card is destroyed.

For Spell Cards, the DC is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the minimum caster level necessary to cast the spell. Spells cast through a Spell Card are always cast at the minimum caster level necessary to cast it normally, though by willingly increasing the Sleight of Hand DC by 3, the caster level can be increased by 1. Increasing the DC by more than 3 further increases the caster level by 1 for every additional 3 the DC in increased by. Saving throws for resisting a Spell Card are always equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the Palmist’s Dexterity modifier.

Triggering a Spell Card of a spell with an experience component takes experience equal to the experience component of the spell. When triggered, the Card goes into the Palmist’s sidebar.

For mundane Item Cards, the DC is equal to 10 + half the items’ weight in pounds + 1/10 the number of items contained in the card. When triggered, the Card is destroyed.

For magical Item Cards, the DC is equal to 10 + half the item’s weight in pounds + the item’s caster level. Except for ammunition, no more than 1 magic item may be contained in a card. Up to 50 ammunition of the same type may be held on one card. When triggered, the Card is destroyed.

For Plane Cards, the DC is equal to 10 + 3 for every planar trait that the card would change. Planar traits may include Gravity, Time, Morphic, Elemental and Energy Traits, Alignment Traits, and Magic Traits. For Elemental and Energy Traits and Alignment Traits, minor strengths are considered 1 trait while major ones are considered 2. Local planar traits that the Plane Card shares are not considered changed, so these traits do not increase the DC. Removing a local trait is considered a change as well. When triggered, the Card goes into the Palmist’s sidebar.

(For example, activating a Elemental Plane of Air Card on a Prime Material Plane is DC 25: 10 + 3 (Normal gravity to Subjective) + 6 (non-elemental to Major Air-Dominant) + 3 (Normal Magic to Enhanced Magic Air) + 3 (Normal Magic to Impeded Magic Earth)).

Construct Deck (Ex): At level 1, a Palmist may set up a deck of cards from which they are prepared to trigger. A Deck may contain no more than 1 + the Palmist’s Intelligence modifier cards per 2 Palmist level2. Preparing a Deck takes 60 minutes per 10 cards in it.

At levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, the time that it takes to prepare a Deck decreases by 5 minutes per 10 cards, or 55 minutes, 50, 45, 40, 35, and 30, respectively.

Any cards that the Palmist possesses which are not in their active Deck are considered to be in the Palmist’s sidebar. Newly carded cards always go into the sidebar.

Playing Field (Ex): Once triggered, cards go onto the Playing Field, where they affect the world around the Palmist in different ways depending on their type. A Palmist cannot have more cards on the playing field at once than twice their Dexterity modifier. Further, at no time can a Palmist have more than one Plane Card in play.

Beast Cards call the creature carded to a position within 10 feet of the Palmist. When called, the creature is always healthy; any damage they may have taken before being carded is removed, as are any nonpermanent magic effects on them. They will serve the Palmist loyally and without question for 1 minute per Palmist level; during this time they will even follow orders that are clearly self-destructive or suicidal. After this time, the creature is no longer considered to be on the Palmist’s playing field and will act normally, and will remember being carded and whatever it was forced to do while under the Palmist’s control. It may be hostile to the Palmist.

While under a Palmist’s control in this way, no creature will use Spells, Spell-like abilities, Powers, or Power-like abilities unless specifically ordered to. Ordering a creature to use one of these abilities is a standard action that does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity; once ordered to use an ability, the creature will do so as soon as able to the exclusion of all other actions. If the Spell or Power being used or emulated would have an experience component, the Palmist must pay that experience cost.

Item Cards, both of magical and mundane items, call the carded item or items to a position adjacent to the Palmist. Once called, the items can be used as normal by whoever picks them up. Item cards cease to be part of the Palmist’s playing field after 1 hour.

Spell Cards with no duration, an instant duration, or with a permanent duration, take effect as the spell and then leave the field. Spell cards with a duration other than instant or permanent take effect as the spell and stay on the playing field until their duration expires or they are dispelled. Spells on a playing field cannot be Carded.

Plane Cards change the planar traits of the area to those of the plane that was carded. This affects an area centered on where the Palmist was when they activated the card with a radius of 500 feet, and lasts for 10 minutes. After this period, the Plane Card leaves the playing field.

Card: Mundane Item (Sp): At level 5, a Palmist gains the ability to convert unattended nonmagical items into enchanted cards, which may then be converted back into the item.

Carding an item or items is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. To card an item or items, the Palmist must touch the item and make a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 10 + the items’ weight in pounds + the number of items to be carded. If multiple items are to be to be carded, they must all be of the same type.

Once an item is carded, the card goes into the Palmist’s sidebar.

Card: Spell (Sp): At level 10, a Palmist gains the ability to convert spells or spell-like abilities other creatures cast into enchanted cards, which can then be later used to cast the spell.

Carding a spell is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. In all cases, the Palmist must be within 30 feet of the center of the spell to be carded.

To card a spell with no duration, an instant duration, or a permanent duration, the Palmist must observe the spell being cast and identify it with a successful Spellcraft check. The Palmist must then have an action readied, must make a successful Reflex saving throw against a DC of 10 + the spell’s level + the spell’s caster’s spellcasting attribute modifier. Finally, the Palmist must make a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 10 + twice the spell’s level + twice the spell’s caster level.

To card a spell with a duration other than instant or permanent, the Palmist must first identify the spell with a successful Spellcraft check. Then, if the spell is targeted or centered on a creature, the Palmist must then make a successful ranged touch attack, which does no damage. Finally, the Palmist must make a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 10 + twice the spell’s level + twice the spell’s caster level.

In both cases, once a spell is carded, the card goes into the Palmist’s sidebar.

Sidebar Trigger (Su): At Level 10, a Palmist may begin to use even cards outside their deck at will, though with more difficulty than from their deck.

Triggering a card from the Sidebar is identical to triggering a card from the deck, but the Sleight of Hand DC is 10 higher than normal. Further, the Palmist must choose a spell card from their deck. Regardless of whether the Sleight of Hand check is successful or not, both the spell card from the deck and the card from the sidebar which the Palmist is attempting to activate are destroyed.

Card: Magic Item (Sp): At level 15, a Palmist gains the ability to convert unattended magical items into enchanted cards, which may then be converted back into the item.

Carding an item is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. To card an item, the Palmist must touch the item and make a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 12 + twice the item’s weight in pounds + twice the item’s caster level.

Once an item is carded, the card goes into the Palmist’s sidebar.

Card: Plane (Sp): At level 20, a Palmist gains the ability to store a link to a plane’s fabric within an enchanted card, which can then be used to overlay that plane’s fabric upon another.

Carding a planar link requires 10 minutes of uninterrupted meditation. To card the link, the Palmist must be in the target plane and must make a successful Sleight of Hand check against a DC of 20 + 5 for every planar trait that the plane possesses. Planar traits may include Gravity, Time, Morphic, Elemental and Energy Traits, Alignment Traits, and Magic Traits. For Elemental and Energy Traits and Alignment Traits, minor strengths are considered 1 trait while major ones are considered 2.

Once the link is carded, the card goes into the Palmist’s sidebar.





Whew! That took a while to type up. Almost 4 hours… Hopefully people will think that it’s good stuff, or if not hopefully it will inspire them to think up better ways of doing this sort of thing.

Anyway, sorry for the huge wall-o-text, as well as any parts of the mechanics behind the class that might be confusing… I knew what I was going for, but I just wasn’t sure quite how to say it so that other people would know what I was going for. In any case, I’m growing tired and hungry now, so… Yeah.

Edit1: Changed some DCs around a bit. Changes are in blue. Should be somewhat less impossibly hard to Card items now.
Edit2: Added some extra stuff to the Beast Card section to accept psychics mechanically, and added Psychics to the character relations section. I'm going to call this the Final Form for now, though more changes might be made later.

CthulhuM
2007-10-07, 07:09 PM
Definitely a very cool idea. It has a lot of style and would probably be fairly interesting to play. I fear it may suffer from some of the same problems of the Truenamer (i.e. in order to do anything it has to make skill checks with very high DCs, even at low levels), but that's probably inescapable considering the power of its abilities.

The only real suggestions I would make are to give the sharpcard some sort of enhancement bonus as the Palmist gains levels (still wouldn't make it a powerful ability for a class with half base attack, but at least it would be sortof useful) and to provide some rules for giving the Psalmist some creatures already stored at level 1 (or whenever they start playing).

That, and perhaps alter the creature-capturing ability so that the creature's magical equipment is left behind? I can't help but think a party is quickly going to get fed up with the Psalmist making their loot vanish on a regular basis, and it doesn't actually make much sense that a psalmist can store items worn by a creature more easily than they can store the items themselves.

Mr. Moogle
2007-10-07, 08:20 PM
Oh man... *thinks "Tarrasque i chose YOU"* if i ever had to play one of these i would totally refer to my cards a poke balls. Also, can you have diffrent kinds of decks, that would make sense to have major magic items that were decks like deck of extended summoning that increased the time that monsters were out on the field. All in all it a great idea, you mind if i yoink?

P.S. what dose fast deck do?

TheLogman
2007-10-07, 08:37 PM
It lets you build a Deck faster.

Cool, cool. It's a summoner, a backpack for items of a sort, the trapping mechanism is a combat device, allows for better puzzles, and all sorts of fun stuff. Also, could we add some feats? Maybe feats that allow for multiple cards played at a time, allow you to shift the element of spells cast from cards, or even better, allow you to apply templates to your monsters? That would be cool. You could summon an Orc, and then apply the Celestial template. Hey, you could Card your allies, put them in a deck, and then carry them! That would make travel quick and easy!

KBF
2007-10-07, 09:09 PM
Not to mention cut down on inn costs, food and water, and if they do it willingly, they're morons. They are your slaves now.

Yeah.

A CR 1 animal might be good to start with.

TheLogman
2007-10-07, 09:18 PM
They're your party. They trust you, you trust them. Besides, they wouldn't be your slaves for long, and you could dismiss the effect, since they are your party, and you trust each other.

Maybe it's just me, but I kind of have teamwork, trust, and helpfulness ingrained in my brain when it comes to a party. I guess maybe betrayal and hatred comes along sometimes.

KBF
2007-10-07, 09:22 PM
Yeah, trust.

That's pretty rare for D&D.

Or life in general.:smallbiggrin:

TheLogman
2007-10-07, 09:29 PM
Seriously? The Rouge can't trust the Fighter to give him flanking? The Wizard can't Trust the fighter to get his back? The Party can't trust the Cleric to heal them when they're dying? It seems like the entire idea of a team-system is that each part of the party can trust each other to cover everyone else's weak points.

But I digress.

This guy could make a great anything, almost like a Binder, but better. He can fill any party role depending on his deck. This guy is almost perfectly versatile, any spell, any creature, any item. It's all the cards.

NecroRebel
2007-10-07, 10:12 PM
Thanks, everyone :smallsmile: I think that I am going to alter the carding DCs a bit, particularly for items. I realized that your average 4-pound non-magic Longsword would be a DC 52 to Card... Not exactly where I want it.


Definitely a very cool idea. It has a lot of style and would probably be fairly interesting to play. I fear it may suffer from some of the same problems of the Truenamer (i.e. in order to do anything it has to make skill checks with very high DCs, even at low levels), but that's probably inescapable considering the power of its abilities.

Well, for capturing creatures, the SoH DC is based off of it's hit points rather than the more traditional hit dice. This is kinda where the Pokemon inspiration came in... Although it might be impossible to Card a full-strength Tarrasque, if you can deal enough damage to take it down to -9 Hit Points the SoH DC is literally 1 (Although I'm pretty sure that that damage would have to be lethal, which you can't actually do to the big T). My thought is that if you can take a creature down to Card-able levels, you can probably kill it anyway.

For spells, yes, the Card DC is high, but again, I don't want them to be able to consistently Card an enemy's highest-level spells. Besides that, the highest possible spell Card DC without cheese is 68 (10+CL20x2+SL9x2), while a level 20 Palmist can get up to 23 ranks, 36 Dex (18 base +2 halfling +5 levels +5 Tome +6 Bracers) for another 13, 3 for Skill Focus, 2 for the +SoH/Bluff feat, and +10 from another item for a +51 modifier. 17 or better on a d20 is difficult, sure, but not impossible.

Item DCs are obviously too high. I've realized that myself. Plane Cards aren't, though... In fact, from what I can tell all of the planes in the SRD would have a DC less than 50.


The only real suggestions I would make are to give the sharpcard some sort of enhancement bonus as the Palmist gains levels (still wouldn't make it a powerful ability for a class with half base attack, but at least it would be sortof useful) and to provide some rules for giving the Psalmist some creatures already stored at level 1 (or whenever they start playing).

These are good ideas. I think I'll change Sharpcard to give +1 enhancement bonuses at level 3 and every 3 thereafter, since it probably isn't unbalanced to give a +6-equivalent weapon to a half BAB class at level 18... Is it?

Giving a free 1-2 HD Beast Card at level 1 would also probably be good.


That, and perhaps alter the creature-capturing ability so that the creature's magical equipment is left behind? I can't help but think a party is quickly going to get fed up with the Psalmist making their loot vanish on a regular basis, and it doesn't actually make much sense that a psalmist can store items worn by a creature more easily than they can store the items themselves.

Again, a good idea. I'm just not certain how to word the ability. Thoughts?

Also, it's Palmist, not Psalmist :smalltongue: I was looking up synonyms for "Mage" and found it. Apparently means "Fortune-teller," but the huge reliance on Sleight of Hand and the "palm" connotation made me like the word for the class's name.


Oh man... *thinks "Tarrasque i chose YOU"* if i ever had to play one of these i would totally refer to my cards a poke balls. Also, can you have diffrent kinds of decks, that would make sense to have major magic items that were decks like deck of extended summoning that increased the time that monsters were out on the field. All in all it a great idea, you mind if i yoink?

P.S. what dose fast deck do?

Well, there is the admitted Pokemon inspiration :smallwink:

Fast Deck got rolled into Construct Deck in the ability descriptions. It's now the Construct Deck clause about reduced deck construction time.

The way I intended it, you only have one deck at a time ingame, though there's nothing stopping you from having multiple "standard" deck builds that you just switch between as desired. Feats, prestige classes, and items based off of this pseudomagic system would be the next step after finalizing it... But I have no problems at all with people taking my work and building off of it. Go ahead and yoink.

Mewtarthio
2007-10-07, 11:19 PM
It occurs to me that, under "Other Classes," you leave out something very important. Namely, a certain class that, with the proper choices, can become the Palmist's super special awesome bestest friend:

The Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicCrush.htm)

Sure, they get a +4 bonus the their Will saves, but you also get your own new slave if it succeeds.

As a side note, shouldn't there be some sort of limit to how long a creature remains enslaved? Under the ability entry for "Card: Beast," no limit is given, so succeeding once makes them your permanent thrall for the rest of eternity.

As an even sidier side note, what's with the line about "debilitating a target's acumen"? Do they even know what "acumen" means, or did they just pull cool-sounding words out of the dictionary?

NecroRebel
2007-10-07, 11:44 PM
It occurs to me that, under "Other Classes," you leave out something very important. Namely, a certain class that, with the proper choices, can become the Palmist's super special awesome bestest friend:

The Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicCrush.htm)

Sure, they get a +4 bonus the their Will saves, but you also get your own new slave if it succeeds.

As a side note, shouldn't there be some sort of limit to how long a creature remains enslaved? Under the ability entry for "Card: Beast," no limit is given, so succeeding once makes them your permanent thrall for the rest of eternity.

As an even sidier side note, what's with the line about "debilitating a target's acumen"? Do they even know what "acumen" means, or did they just pull cool-sounding words out of the dictionary?

Yeah... Kinda forgot about psychics in general for the Carding thing (though to my credit I DID include them in the part about a creature's psi-like and psi powers costing XP). The easiest way to add them in would be to make Card: Beast add the target's current Power Points to the DC.

Also, that power is nasty. I intentionally made it so that you couldn't usually Card a full-strength creature, but... Well, with that power you basically just set the Sleight of Hand DC to 9:smallconfused: Big meanness.

Also, the duration for controlling a creature is under the "Playing Field" entry. 1 minute per Palmist level of absolute control.

On your even sidier side note... Yeah. "Debilitating its acumen" basically means "reducing its quickness of perception," which isn't actually what the power does at all. I suspect that they just added in some hopefully-nonsensical technobabble while anticipating ignorance as to the nuances of the affair (which are just big words for saying they hope no one will notice):smallannoyed:

Mewtarthio
2007-10-08, 12:38 AM
Yeah... Kinda forgot about psychics in general for the Carding thing (though to my credit I DID include them in the part about a creature's psi-like and psi powers costing XP). The easiest way to add them in would be to make Card: Beast add the target's current Power Points to the DC.

It should probably be half of that. A ninth-level power costs 17 PP.

Waspinator
2007-10-08, 01:46 AM
Am I the only one who finds the idea of this class incredibly scary? I mean, it's an entire class centered around slavery and ability-stealing. If I was a player in a group and someone else was using one of these guys, I don't know how safe I'd feel sleeping at night; I wouldn't know if I'd wake up inside a plastic sleeve.

On the other hand, their abilties would have many useful applications. As has been said before, the Palmist could store the rest of the party in cards to make travelling cheaper and easier. Also, if someone's about to die and there's no healer available, stuffing them into a card would be a good way to save them until healing can be done.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-10-08, 02:59 AM
Heh:
What happend to the hit poins of a creature thats been carded. For example, ets say I have carded a Large Viper that had -4 Hit Points when it was carded.
This viper was hostile to me.

There are no caveats which state that releasing the creature would make/let it fight for me, and it doesn't say what state the creature would be in.

Also, I can definatly see two Palmistsgoing at it:

Palmist A plays creature
Palmist B cards it, plays a sperate creature
Palmist A cards THAT one... et.cetera.

Mayeb you'd want to prevent this?

Doglord
2007-10-08, 11:48 AM
These enchanted cards could be found as magic items. Or prisons for things like the tarrasque, trap him in a card and bury it.

In conclusion: brilliant idea!:smallsmile:

Waspinator
2007-10-08, 12:02 PM
Something I'm wondering about is what exactly happens to the things you put in cards. Are they actually physically in the cards, stored as magical energy, stuck in a pocket dimension, or what? This could be relevant if you stick anything that you could talk to in one since it could describe the experience. Would it remember being conscious while inside the card? If so, what if anything could it pereceive? Where did it seem to be?

And on an eviller note, what happens if you rip the card in half? :D

Mewtarthio
2007-10-08, 01:20 PM
Something I'm wondering about is what exactly happens to the things you put in cards. Are they actually physically in the cards, stored as magical energy, stuck in a pocket dimension, or what? This could be relevant if you stick anything that you could talk to in one since it could describe the experience. Would it remember being conscious while inside the card? If so, what if anything could it pereceive? Where did it seem to be?

I'd guess he's stuck in temporal stasis.


And on an eviller note, what happens if you rip the card in half? :D

...Actually, I'm curious, too. Would that free the creature from the thrall of the Palmist?

NecroRebel
2007-10-08, 01:42 PM
Am I the only one who finds the idea of this class incredibly scary? I mean, it's an entire class centered around slavery and ability-stealing. If I was a player in a group and someone else was using one of these guys, I don't know how safe I'd feel sleeping at night; I wouldn't know if I'd wake up inside a plastic sleeve.

On the other hand, their abilties would have many useful applications. As has been said before, the Palmist could store the rest of the party in cards to make travelling cheaper and easier. Also, if someone's about to die and there's no healer available, stuffing them into a card would be a good way to save them until healing can be done.

The class is supposed to be a bit scary. That's why under the Alignment categories they're explicitly said to lean towards Evil; they go around enslaving possibly-innocent creatures, then in many cases force those creatures to help them enslave MORE possibly-innocent creatures! They're like Pokemon trainers for crying out loud! :smallmad:

Also, as said under the Playing Field entry on Beast Cards, the creatures are always healthy when called. So... I suppose you could technically use this to heal an ally, except that they would be in stasis for however long it took you to prep their card into your deck.


Heh:
What happend to the hit poins of a creature thats been carded. For example, ets say I have carded a Large Viper that had -4 Hit Points when it was carded.
This viper was hostile to me.

There are no caveats which state that releasing the creature would make/let it fight for me, and it doesn't say what state the creature would be in.

Also, I can definatly see two Palmistsgoing at it:

Palmist A plays creature
Palmist B cards it, plays a sperate creature
Palmist A cards THAT one... et.cetera.

Mayeb you'd want to prevent this?

Again, see the Playing Field section. It covers the hit points of the carded creature and how control works.

I don't see any problems with two Palmists going around and Carding each others' creatures repeatedly. Unless one is much more optimized/higher level than the other and can hit much higher SoH DCs, the creatures are at nearly-dead hit point levels anyway, so it does them relatively little good to Card them.


Something I'm wondering about is what exactly happens to the things you put in cards. Are they actually physically in the cards, stored as magical energy, stuck in a pocket dimension, or what? This could be relevant if you stick anything that you could talk to in one since it could describe the experience. Would it remember being conscious while inside the card? If so, what if anything could it pereceive? Where did it seem to be?

And on an eviller note, what happens if you rip the card in half? :D

I'm thinking that carded things are in some form of magic energy stasis. I did imply this in the original, again under Playing Field... Specifically, I said that the creature remembers being Carded and whatever they were forced to do. The omission of saying they remember their status while Carded is probably significant. I'm willing to change this if people think it's better, though.

And if the card is destroyed, it can't be used anymore... Which means that, as written, there's no way of recovering anything that had been within a destroyed card. So, I guess it'd be sorta like a one-item (or one-creature) Bag of Holding that you store things in, and when you stab it anything within is lost forever. Not TOO unbalanced, considering that it's basically used the same way as one application of a Bag of Holding, but instead of needing to kill a Bag you instead have to spend several levels, skill points, and probably feats to pull it off.

Once creatures or items are outside the card, the card is explicitly stated to be destroyed. Once released, the card doesn't actually have any part in the Palmist's control.



Still looking for help on the wording for making the Card: Beast ability not take equipment with it. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Skelengar
2007-10-08, 07:07 PM
I love it. I am totally stealing it.

"Any equipment the creature is carrying falls to the ground, excluding items that are lost with the death of the creature, such as a balor's flame whip."

As for some questions...

Do the cards need to be specially prepared beforehand, or are they standard playing cards?

Is there any way to modify this for a psionic-heavy campaign?

Would you get expirence from a carded creature as if you had killed it? If not, then how would you level?

How do antimagic fieilds affect this?

Other than that, it's great

Fizban
2007-10-08, 07:14 PM
I don't see any problems with two Palmists going around and Carding each others' creatures repeatedly. Unless one is much more optimized/higher level than the other and can hit much higher SoH DCs, the creatures are at nearly-dead hit point levels anyway, so it does them relatively little good to Card them.
Except:

When called, the creature is always healthy; any damage they may have taken before being carded is removed, as are any nonpermanent magic effects on them.
So they're not at near-dead hp, they're at full hp. Makes little difference to the carding circle, but I thought I'd point it out.

Dairun Cates
2007-10-08, 07:31 PM
I almost fear the connotation of carding a BBEG and then later when fighting your nemesis screaming, "NOT SO FAST KAIBA! You've triggered my trap! I call forth the power of the DARK MAGICIAN!"

D Knight
2007-10-08, 08:29 PM
i have a question what about a willing creature becomeing a card would the DC be cut in half or not be there at all.

NecroRebel
2007-10-08, 11:56 PM
I love it. I am totally stealing it.

"Any equipment the creature is carrying falls to the ground, excluding items that are lost with the death of the creature, such as a balor's flame whip."

As for some questions...

Do the cards need to be specially prepared beforehand, or are they standard playing cards?

Is there any way to modify this for a psionic-heavy campaign?

Would you get expirence from a carded creature as if you had killed it? If not, then how would you level?

How do antimagic fieilds affect this?

Other than that, it's great

That's a good wording. I'll add that to the Card: Beast entry in just a moment.

As written, they're just ordinary playing cards... Probably about a silver for a 52-card deck. It might be better to require specially-made cards, though.

I intend to change the Card: Beast ability so that half a creature's current Power Point amount is included in the Card DC, so that psychic creatures are as difficult to Card as casters are (until they've largely exhausted their abilities, at least). There'll also be a clause added about PP not being restored while Carded as well, similar to spells.

Other than that, if you wanted a Power Card, you could probably just use the Spell Card rules. Psychic-Magic transparency and all.

Technically, you get experience for "defeating" enemy creatures, not "killing" them. And one would think that forcing an enemy creature to serve you is roughly the same as "defeating" them.

In an antimagic field, spell-like and supernatural abilities don't function. All five Card abilities are spell-likes, while the Trigger Card ability is supernatural, so neither of these would work in an AMF. Also, since Spell Cards are treated as the spell once activated, any previously-active Spell Cards would be dispelled or suppressed as normal. Any previously-active Beast or Plane cards would continue acting normally, though activating new ones would be impossible.


So they're not at near-dead hp, they're at full hp. Makes little difference to the carding circle, but I thought I'd point it out.

I meant when the actual carding happens. If you try to Card the freshly-released creature from another Palmist immediately, you'll almost certainly fail, but if you wait until you and your creatures have beaten them to near death, you can succeed as normal.


I almost fear the connotation of carding a BBEG and then later when fighting your nemesis screaming, "NOT SO FAST KAIBA! You've triggered my trap! I call forth the power of the DARK MAGICIAN!"

Initially, there was going to be a quote from Yu-Gi-Oh: The Abridged Series after the flavor text, but then I couldn't find the episode I wanted to quote (Yami vs. Evil Bakura 1). It should be something like, "I'm going to gather all the Millenium Items and use their vaguely-established powers to destroy the world! But first, I'm going to beat you in a card game!"


i have a question what about a willing creature becomeing a card would the DC be cut in half or not be there at all.

I'm not quite sure I like the idea of people being willingly carded. Even if it's relatively brief, the absolute control it gives over you is just a bit too mean to just let someone do. After all, they could order you to fail your saving throws against a Phantasmal Killer or Dominate Person card, and you'd have to do it. Still, if you did find a willing target, halving or quartering the DC might not be unreasonable.



In any case, unless people suggest more changes that I like after tonight, I'm going to call this the final form after I finish now.

Doberler
2007-10-09, 06:20 AM
Personally, the only problem I have with the class is that issuing an order takes a standard action... i would prolly bump it down to a move action at higher levels... allowing the more experienced Palmist a better ability to control more creatures

also... do things stay in the sidebar only until you make a new deck?

smart thog
2007-10-09, 03:45 PM
Aww. I was hoping for some sort of fortune teller class. I am DMing the castle ravenloft game at home, and I thought that this would be a better class for madam eve then cleric. I guess I was wrong. I only bring this up because my players have deiced to kill her after she reads there fortunes. They are munchkins.

Skelengar
2007-10-09, 05:40 PM
Perhaps there could be an option to voluntarily remove a creature you control from the playing field early, thus relinquishing control over it.

Darkbane
2007-10-09, 05:45 PM
One big problem I see: if carding a creature counts as "defeating" it, then you card a Tarrasque, release it, card it again... Epic level, here I come!

TheLogman
2007-10-09, 06:42 PM
Darkbane, good luck not only reducing the Tarrasque to 0 hp to make it even close to card-able, but then actually hitting it with a touch attack, which provokes an attack of opportunity. Then, you still have to reduce it to 0 hp AGAIN to card it again, but this time, you have do it before it stops being under your control.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-10-09, 07:25 PM
Okay, is anybody else totally weirded out how this card dueling class's "best friend" is "Mind Crush"? That's just uncanny.

Great flavor, great mechanics. A lot of power potential, though at the same time, a lot of hoops to jump through to really be a major powerhouse. As they said, it's like a binder, but better. I wouldn't mind playing one at all.

NecroRebel
2007-10-09, 07:45 PM
Personally, the only problem I have with the class is that issuing an order takes a standard action... i would prolly bump it down to a move action at higher levels... allowing the more experienced Palmist a better ability to control more creatures

also... do things stay in the sidebar only until you make a new deck?

Only commanding a creature to use spells, spell-likes, psi-likes, or powers is a standard action. That's a specific exception to the normal rules for commanding creatures.

Under "Construct Deck" it gives the rules for making a deck. Your deck is basically your spells-per-day; you have a limited number (1+Int mod per 2 levels). Cards not in your deck are your sidebar.


One big problem I see: if carding a creature counts as "defeating" it, then you card a Tarrasque, release it, card it again... Epic level, here I come!
Darkbane, good luck not only reducing the Tarrasque to 0 hp to make it even close to card-able, but then actually hitting it with a touch attack, which provokes an attack of opportunity. Then, you still have to reduce it to 0 hp AGAIN to card it again, but this time, you have do it before it stops being under your control.

You know, I just realized that it's actually impossible to Card the Tarrasque until WAY into epic levels anyway. You can't deal lethal damage to the big T, so you can't actually reduce it's current hit points (nonlethal damage is technically a seperate number), which means that you can only Card the average big T with a DC 868 Sleight of Hand check. Which also means that any other creatures with Regeneration are also rediculously difficult to actually Card, though the Tarrasque is probably the only creature pre-epic that absolutely and irredemably cannot be Carded.

Please don't mention ways to beat a DC 868 skill check pre-epic... I've seen both Pun-Pun and the Omnisificer, and while they COULD do it, they hardly count. Other than that, I just really don't want to know.

Oh, and there's also the fact that you can't really "defeat" your own servant. It only would count if you didn't do anything to the Tarrasque while it was under your control and then beat it down and Carded it again after it was free. Not that beating it down helps, mind you, but it's the principle of the thing. Besides, if you can consistently beat down a Tarrasque, you could probably also just go hunting for CR20 Dragons, which are more profitable to defeat as well.

Diem
2007-10-09, 10:38 PM
I don't know if anyone else would know it, but it reminds me of the Nightmare casters from Magic: The Gathering. You know, like Chainer and Braids? Very nice, I'll have to grab this class for my game.
~N

D Knight
2007-10-10, 09:03 PM
i have one last question befor this thread drops. if u cast permnacy on the cards would the creature or item always turn back to a card when there time is done?

NecroRebel
2007-10-10, 11:10 PM
i have one last question befor this thread drops. if u cast permnacy on the cards would the creature or item always turn back to a card when there time is done?

Um. Maybe... I'm not sure. Strictly speaking, Permanency is only for a relatively few specific spells. It might be better to make either a prestige class based off of creature cards with that as the capstone ability, or to make a feat or spell with that sort of thing in mind.

Actually, a PrC like that might not be too bad... Make it's earlier abilities decrease the Carding DC, mid levels increase the duration a creature had to serve you, then in the end make it so things auto-Card when the duration expires. You'd give up some Plane Cards at the minimum and perhaps deck size (though by those levels it probably wouldn't matter) and probably put off Spell Cards longer... Probably lose the force effect of Sharpcard, maybe Magic Item Cards, too, depending on how many levels it is... Hm.

Curses! Now I may have just replaced the card-mage idea distraction with a card-mage-idea-PrC idea distraction! :smallsigh: