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JamieAST
2019-06-23, 04:19 AM
Without going into too many details (don’t think my players read this forum, but you never know) I am planning an encounter featuring a riddle locked door. This door allows access to a deeper layer of the dungeon and must be overcome, however the BBEG knows the parties location and will be sending troops at them. Has anyone else mixed riddles/puzzles and combat like this? How much of a concern is player burnout with both going on at once?

I can give more details if necessary. If any of the knights of nyssa are reading this, please don’t.

DeTess
2019-06-23, 04:59 AM
I think a bit more info is needed. Will the players be fighting a combat encounter that will only end when they solve the puzzle? Because that'll need very clear telegraphing and balancing because your party will essentially be 1-2 players short for the combat as those'll need to be doing puzzle-solving stuff.

If the players will simply get attacked every X minutes while working on the puzzle then it's less of an issue as long as the puzzle itself is doable.

Altair_the_Vexed
2019-06-23, 05:01 AM
It's a good dramatic trope, but you're right, it can be difficult in a game.

Depending on your game system, the PCs may have other means to get past the door - high explosives, passwall or knock spell, etc.

For me, if I was playing and had to solve a riddle lock while there was imminent combat or actual combat going on, and if I didn't have a bypass plan, I'd demand a skill check* for the smartest character to solve the riddle.
PCs are often smarter than their players, so asking the players to solve a riddle while they are also trying to do combat tactics isn't always very fair.

If I was GMing such a scene, I'd let them make a skill check after they'd had a think about the riddle as players. Everyone likes to feel clever, so handing it out to them for nothing (or for a roll of a die) may seem anti-climactic.

Of course, if a player gets the riddle straight away, then you might want to make them do a skill check anyway, to see if their character is smart enough to have thought of that! Once the solution is known to the players, each character can make a check to know the answer.
That way, the players get to feel clever, but the smart character is the one who has the answer in the scene.

*For "skill check" substitute whatever mechanic is applicable in your game system.

JamieAST
2019-06-23, 05:27 AM
So because I’m a paranoid DM, I’ll give a bunch more details with specifics in spoiler below.

I plan on having the encounter as a straight riddle. The players will have a period of time to crack it (say five minutes?) before enemies start appearing. I intend to run this in waves, increasing in difficulty, with pauses in between, right up to totally overwhelming them (I can work this to not be TPK, I’m more concerned with the ‘will it be good, stressful fun?’

The party are sneaking through the lair of a lone BBEG Ulitharid who controls a host of Chuul. The door in question leads from the prison cell area to the lab, and due to the nature of the BBEG she knows their location at all times. If they get overrun I plan on taking them captive. The riddle is: ‘You’ve none at the start, to make them’s your art, and if you should lose them who you are falls apart... what are they?’

Koo Rehtorb
2019-06-23, 07:29 AM
Memories?

Personally I find riddles in RPGs kind of tiresome. Mostly because they represent player skill, not character skill.

Cikomyr
2019-06-23, 07:36 AM
I had a riddely-puzzle mixed with a fight.

The trick is to allow PCs to use their turn to roll a specific skill check that will give them clue. Effectively, the riddle is kind of a tough monster that doesn't attack and needs to be killed with a different means than standard monster.

This will hold up one of your party member and force him to concentrate on the riddle while the other party members have to fight off the Monsters.

In my game, it was a success. Managed to mix tension with resolution well. It certainly change the type of battle from "kill everything in sight" to a more objective focused battle.

JamieAST
2019-06-23, 07:56 AM
This is just the kind of response I was after. Have though up a couple of clues, will have to go through and think of a few more. Tbf if they’re not through within a few Combat ‘waves’ then I’ll take them captive and run an escape encounter. Also YES! THANKYOU! The answer is memories, you’re the first person who’s got it... I was starting to lose hope!

Cikomyr
2019-06-23, 08:50 AM
This is just the kind of response I was after. Have though up a couple of clues, will have to go through and think of a few more. Tbf if they’re not through within a few Combat ‘waves’ then I’ll take them captive and run an escape encounter. Also YES! THANKYOU! The answer is memories, you’re the first person who’s got it... I was starting to lose hope!

Ultimately, what's important for your players is that they need to have a feel of progress being made. If they just hit their head on the wall with no discernable feeling that they aren't losing their time, that's frustrating

If they have someone manage a check every other turns that gives them more clues for the riddle, they wont feel like it's a pointless exercise. And you can have players feel golden about "feeling progress" 9 times out of 10.

Also rewards players for having a smart character, since the skill they should roll should be int-related. So we avoid the situation where a character is smarter than his player.

The Int-based clues are literally logic deduction the character makes in his head, not actual clues that add on top of the riddle.

JamieAST
2019-06-23, 09:39 AM
The Int-based clues are literally logic deduction the character makes in his head, not actual clues that add on top of the riddle.
Could you give an example of what you mean by this? I can see how that would work on a physical puzzle (‘when you pull the lever the sand seems to shift’/‘the eyes of the statue look like they can be removed’) but unsure for a riddle/word puzzle?

Jay R
2019-06-23, 10:14 AM
At the gates of Moria, Tolkien had the Watcher in the Water attack after the party solves the riddle. I recommend this approach.

JamieAST
2019-06-23, 10:24 AM
At the gates of Moria, Tolkien had the Watcher in the Water attack after the party solves the riddle. I recommend this approach.

Sort of not an option as the BBEG knows the parties location and has troops in the area and is going to be trying her damndest to avoid a confrontation...
mindflayers are a handful

Cikomyr
2019-06-23, 11:09 AM
Could you give an example of what you mean by this? I can see how that would work on a physical puzzle (‘when you pull the lever the sand seems to shift’/‘the eyes of the statue look like they can be removed’) but unsure for a riddle/word puzzle?

one important thing is probably also giving the clue only to the player making the skill check.

So your riddle:

"You’ve none at the start, to make them’s your art, and if you should lose them who you are falls apart... what are they?’"

Potential clues:

"Start probably means your birth, or your childhood"

"who you are falls appart means losing your identity"

"your art probably references your skills and sense of self"

It's perfectly *fine* in my opinion to spoonfeed tidbits of answers to a player who sacrifice his turn and gets a sufficiently good int-based roll. You are rewarding a sacrifice and effort on the part of the PC. Any turn he spends rolling is a turn he isn't fighting.

Also other good clue is pointing out that a track of mind he is pursuing is wrong. Make yourself the incarnation of his intellect

JamieAST
2019-06-23, 11:42 AM
Cikomyr that’s awesome, thanks for your advice dude! Much appreciated.

Cikomyr
2019-06-23, 11:59 AM
Cikomyr that’s awesome, thanks for your advice dude! Much appreciated.

It's a genuine pleasure.

Another thing I might also add that was told to me: put your cards on table about these clue mechanics, and what is required to get them.

Yours players are probably scrambling their brains as it is in a stressful situation. Don't have them second-guess themselves about how they can progress on the riddle. Outright say at the start of the fight: "anyone can spend a standard action to roll a skill check to get a clue for the riddle, you still have your movement and bonus action".

The less opaque you are, the more your players will appreciate a cool gameplay mechanic that can only translate well in a tabletop game.

JamieAST
2019-06-23, 04:53 PM
Thanks for the input all, will bump with an update if it’s not thread necromancy by the time the parties through with it.

Cikomyr
2019-06-24, 07:50 PM
Looking forward to it!!

Kami2awa
2019-06-26, 01:02 PM
one important thing is probably also giving the clue only to the player making the skill check.

So your riddle:

"You’ve none at the start, to make them’s your art, and if you should lose them who you are falls apart... what are they?’"

Potential clues:

"Start probably means your birth, or your childhood"

"who you are falls appart means losing your identity"

"your art probably references your skills and sense of self"

It's perfectly *fine* in my opinion to spoonfeed tidbits of answers to a player who sacrifice his turn and gets a sufficiently good int-based roll. You are rewarding a sacrifice and effort on the part of the PC. Any turn he spends rolling is a turn he isn't fighting.

Also other good clue is pointing out that a track of mind he is pursuing is wrong. Make yourself the incarnation of his intellect



Excellent advice! I'd also say that you should accept any answer that actually fits the riddle. Quite a few classic riddles can be solved in more than one way - an example is the famous one from the Hobbit:

This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

The answer in the Hobbit is, famously, "time" ... but "water" also fits.

As to the riddle you gave, my first thought was "children" but I'm guessing the answer is "memories"?

JeenLeen
2019-06-27, 04:26 PM
You might enjoy reading the Pathfinder Adventure League module Haunting of Harrowstone (or something of that title, I think in the Carrion Crown campaign).

It has several fights where there's some puzzle to figure out. If you do, things become much easier. For some of the bosses, this might put it from TPK territory to beatable territory. For some of the other stuff, it makes it a challenging fight to an easy fight. Generally it allows you to avoid TPK if you don't figure it out, but it's a lot tougher.