Refined Tier List (WIP)

[Selion]

It's well known that tiers are representative of the whole character career, focusing mainly on medium to high levels.
I often heard of wizards and arcanists being the strongest classes in the game, but i also heard that high levels is where they shine more and that downtime and out of combat situations is where they give a huge gap in respect to martial classes.
I want to discuss here a tiering system which distinguishes combat and intrigue, low levels and high levels.
I haven't played all classes and I don't know everything, help me adjusting and completing the list.
(It's a WIP, if something is heavily missplaced just help me fix it)

I'm beginning with levels 1-5


Level 1-5

Combat

Tier1: Druid+, U-Summoner, hunter-
Tier2: Barbarian, Fighter, Bloodrager, Ranger, Magus, Warpriest, Brawler, Paladin
Tier3: Skald, Wizard*, Bard, Witch, Cleric
Tier4: Sorcerer*, Oracle, arcanist*, U-Rogue
Tier5: Rogue

*a tier up with a combat dedicated build


Rogues in combat are feats and items dependent, early they could have troubles finding a way to apply sneak attack, and even then their damage is less than that of a two handed melee fighter.
At low levels full casters and 2/3 casters abilities are pretty similar: sorcerers, oracles and arcanists gain spell levels at the same time of magus/skalds/bards, but they lack combat abilities.
Wizards and witches are a little better because they take 2th and 3th level spells a level early, while clerics could be built as efficient combatants using domains.
Low level combats are often a brutal slaughterfest and Full BAB martial classes bring sheer stats, which are essential at these levels.
The crown, BTW, goes to any class with a companion. At low levels a animal companion/eidolon is almost as powerful as a martial character.
Druids have a special spot, they have IMHO the strongest spell list early, with a mix of offensive, defensive, crowd control and utility spells.



Intrigue


Tier1: Druid+, Bard, Skald
Tier2: Rogue, U-rogue, Wizard+, Witch+, Arcanist
Tier3: Ranger, Oracle, Cleric, hunter, Sorcerer*, Magus*
Tier4: Brawler, Bloodrager, barbarian, U-summoner, paladin
Tier5: Fighter, Warpriest

* a tier up with an enchantment/illusion dedicated build


Druids... damn... druids. They are full casters, with an animal companion able to compete with a fighter in combat abilities, and they also have extremely useful spells in a intrigue adventure.
You need to know who killed the unfortunate maiden? Why don't you just ask her house cat, or a mouse, or just interrogate a random bird in 2 miles range? The trustworthy dog doesn't want to collaborate? Charm him and everything is fine.
Oh, there are also 4 skill points per level, because, why not, just let him be a skill monkey as well.
From level 4 on they are the best scouts and infiltrators in the game, at level 5 they can be for half a day a freaking bird who spams lightning bolts unseen and charms bears or does whatever he likes. Damn.
Ok, let's see other classes as well. Bards and skalds are social skill monkeys with a spell list strongly oriented in enchantment and illusion, in a urban setting they can do miracles, this places them easily at the top of the list.
Wizards and witch can be just as efficient and have a familiar able to scout, if they have a daily spell selection focused in intrigue they are tier 1, they are otherwise tier 2, but even a open slot could be enough to change the course of an adventure.
At low level being a skill monkey is extremely useful, this places rogues in the tier 2 position, stealth, perception, bluff, trap finding in a single character could be invaluable early on.
Rangers and hunters are tier 3 for tracking and survivability in wilderness; oracles and sorcerers are tier 2 if focused in enchantment/illusion, otherwise they have still a high charisma score, which is useful in social interactions.
Tier 4 and Tier 5 are combat focused classes, tier 4 classes have minor utility features, tier 5 are just good for smashing things around.


Level 6-10

Combat

Tier1: Druid-, U-Summoner, Magus, Warpriest, wizard, arcanist
Tier2: Barbarian-, Brawler, hunter, Sorcerer+, Witch, Cleric*, oracle, Paladin*
Tier3: Fighter*, Ranger*, Bloodrager, U-Rogue
Tier4: Skald, Bard, Rogue
Tier5:

*
Cleric: tier 1 if heavily focused in summoning
Ranger-fighter: tier 2 if ranged
paladin: up a tier against evil foes, potentially a full ranged smite evil is tier 1 in this range of levels


Animal companions are now not comparable with a martial character, but both druid and summoner have in built summoning mechanics, which in this range of levels are extremely strong in combat. Summoner's eidolon may be built with pounce and constrict, but summoner was already tier 1, so...
This is IMHO the range of levels in which 3/4 BAB 2/3 casting classes shine more, they are not so behind both in combat and in casting, things change exactly at level 9-10, in which 5 level spells are available to full casters.
Thus in this range of levels i'll place warpriest and magus at top tier, they can both change their weaponry depending on foes and also have a lot of utility/crowd control options.
Hunters and brawlers are tier 2 for versatility, barbarians for stats, paladins just for divine grace.
Rogue and U-Rogue climb both a tier because with more feats available they can deliver their damage more efficiently, or they can use low level magic to help them with some trick
There isn't any class in tier 5, this is because i feel this range of levels is pretty balanced combatwise, and i feel differences between tiers are more narrower than in other level ranges.


Intrigue

Tier1: Bard, Skald, , Wizard, Witch, Arcanist-
Tier2: Druid-, Oracle, Cleric, Sorcerer*
Tier3: Ranger, hunter, Magus* ,Rogue, U-rogue, paladin-, U-summoner+
Tier4: Brawler, Bloodrager, barbarian
Tier5: Fighter, Warpriest

* up a tier for enchantment/illusion dedicated builds


Druids lose their golden spot, they have in this range of levels basically the same options of the previous one, becoming basically one/two trick ponies. Scouting in wild shape is still solid tactic.
Bard and skalds pick most of intrigue useful spells the same level of full casters, furthermore they have some means to cast them unnoticed (such as spellsong) and even without magic they are extremely competent social skill monkeys. Bardic knowledge is also a thing.
Wizard and arcanists have basically no penalties in taking a few intrigue-focused spells even if they are otherwise specialized. Witches have some good enchantment spells and are prepared caster, no troubles placing them at top tier. Familiars are often good scouts.
Divine casters have a strange spot: they have good and potentially game-changing divinations, but are otherwise useful in shutting magic focused enemy plots. They have access to scrying and anti-scrying spells, but they get them later than arcane spellcasters.
Summoners may use summoned monsters to gain access to some useful spells, such as suggestion, modify memory and so on, but it's not that easy summoning a monster for a few minutes and pulling out this strategy in a urban setting.
Nothing more to say about martial classes, I'm giving a tier to paladins just because of mercy, which can be used to heal poisons or nasty curses.

[Recherché]

I'd like to argue with you on low level witches. Nigh infinite hexes means that witches don't have the same issues as most other casters with running out of spells at low levels. At low levels those hexes are often better than spells too. Single target only but a single Slumber can win or lose a fight.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd like to argue with you on low level witches. Nigh infinite hexes means that witches don't have the same issues as most other casters with running out of spells at low levels.

Full casters don't run out of spells in Pathfinder.

That's because they've got infinite-use cantrips (and the first couple levels, the Daze cantrip is stronger than most hexes), as well as half a dozen uses of school/domain/bloodline powers, as well as bonus spells (from specialization or domain) that the witch doesn't get.

Witch is a decent class but it's clearly weaker than a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, or druid.

[Selion]

I'd like to argue with you on low level witches. Nigh infinite hexes means that witches don't have the same issues as most other casters with running out of spells at low levels. At low levels those hexes are often better than spells too. Single target only but a single Slumber can win or lose a fight.

Slumber is a strong ability, especially with unlimited uses (still once/day per target, though), but i don't like judging an entire class on a single spell/ability, and the HD limit will kick in later on, in this range of levels there are plenty of save or disable spells with HD limit (sleep, color spray, cause fear) and a few without HD limit (hold person).
Note that in order of using slumber efficiently you need either a comrade in position for a coup de grace or a boss encounter without minions who would wake him.

[Kurald Galain]

This is an interesting idea; I agree that the "classical" tier lists tend to neglect how much melee characters can dominate at lower level, and that certain game-breaking spells only appear at level 15 and up. Let's see what I can suggest for this,

Regarding combat ranks,
Wizard should get a higher tier, as wizard spells are brutal. The same goes for sorcerer, who has the same list; and a blaster sorc deals very good damage (say, 4d6+4 at level 2).
You should consider the U-rogue, which is much better than rogue; as well as the monk and u-monk.
Ranger and cleric should go down a tier, as their bonus damage abilities (at this level) are subpar compared to the others listed.
At later levels, the most important thing for combat is how often a character can make a full attack. So consider which classes get pounce (such as barbarian at level 10; magus at level 4 with his spells; summoner 's eidolon; and anyone with Beast Shape 2 on his list).


Intrigue ranks,
Wizard should be top tier, they have hands-down the best spell list for intrigue and out of combat ability. Wizard also has more skill points than it seems (because of his int focus; a wizard at this level will have 6-7 skill points per level, compared to the druid's 4).
Magus should be second tier, as it has a wide swath of (often-overlooked) utility spells, and easy access to the wizard list. Magus also has 4-5 skill points per level, due to int focus.
This does not apply to the sorcerer (with its limited spells known), nor to the witch (who has a surprisingly limited spell list, less spells per day, and probably won't pick out-of-combat hexes at this level).
Prepared casters (like cleric and warpriest) are better at utility and out-of-combat than spontaneous casters (e.g. oracle).


HTH!

[Selion]

This is an interesting idea; I agree that the "classical" tier lists tend to neglect how much melee characters can dominate at lower level, and that certain game-breaking spells only appear at level 15 and up. Let's see what I can suggest for this,

Regarding combat ranks,
Wizard should get a higher tier, as wizard spells are brutal. The same goes for sorcerer, who has the same list; and a blaster sorc deals very good damage (say, 4d6+4 at level 2).
You should consider the U-rogue, which is much better than rogue; as well as the monk and u-monk.
Ranger and cleric should go down a tier, as their bonus damage abilities (at this level) are subpar compared to the others listed.
At later levels, the most important thing for combat is how often a character can make a full attack. So consider which classes get pounce (such as barbarian at level 10; magus at level 4 with his spells; summoner 's eidolon; and anyone with Beast Shape 2 on his list).


Intrigue ranks,
Wizard should be top tier, they have hands-down the best spell list for intrigue and out of combat ability. Wizard also has more skill points than it seems (because of his int focus; a wizard at this level will have 6-7 skill points per level, compared to the druid's 4).
Magus should be second tier, as it has a wide swath of (often-overlooked) utility spells, and easy access to the wizard list. Magus also has 4-5 skill points per level, due to int focus.
This does not apply to the sorcerer (with its limited spells known), nor to the witch (who has a surprisingly limited spell list, less spells per day, and probably won't pick out-of-combat hexes at this level).
Prepared casters (like cleric and warpriest) are better at utility and out-of-combat than spontaneous casters (e.g. oracle).


HTH!

Thank you for the support, any help is welcome, I definitely am not able to end this task without a proper discussion.
Lets make a confrontation between average damage at level 4, against an average CR4 monster.
Average AC is 17, average touch AC is 12.
Against such an opponent a raging barbarian with 18 base strenght and a masterwork greataxe does 12 average damage, 13.5 during charge
A draconic sorcerer with 14 dex deals an average damage of (18*13/20)*1.05=12 damage.
Damage is the same, but a barbarian can pull it out with more reliability, a sorcerer is limited by slots per day and by enemy positions (if they are in melee it's needed precise shot, which is not a bad choice for a sorcerer, but requires two feats).
Let's see at u-rogue, 18 dex, finesse training (kukri), sneak attack and eventually two weapon fighting (rogue talents may be used to take combat feats, so it's not that uncommon)
Considering a double sneak attack while flanking they'd deal 14.5 damage, but it's not always pulled out, requiring strategy and position.
I'll update the old tiers and i'll think about the next level range.

[Elvensilver]

It's a good idea to compare the classes on a lower level- but I'm wondering a bit about the choice of classes:
You have hybrid classes like the hunter, all the core classes, and most of the base classes: but what about the Gunslinger, the Alchemist and the Cavalier?

[Selion]

It's a good idea to compare the classes on a lower level- but I'm wondering a bit about the choice of classes:
You have hybrid classes like the hunter, all the core classes, and most of the base classes: but what about the Gunslinger, the Alchemist and the Cavalier?

Yep, I'm using just classes which I played/I've seen played, I'm open for advices.

[Selion]

I added another range of levels. I'll think about classes now not included, but I'll specify when I have not game experiences with them.
From level 10 on it will be the full casters reign of terror, but combat-wise martial classes are still dangerous.

[Psyren]

Can we define what the tiers actually mean? I get that in Intrigue for example you're trying to say that Bards are really competent, but that's not at all what T1 means in the actual tier list (even in PF), so it's really confusing.

[upho]

First, have a look at Person_Man's Niche Ranking System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System) if you haven't already. It attempts to do basically the same thing but with greater resolution (and somewhat better defined categories). May be worth it to refine and adapt this to PF instead of potentially "reinventing the wheel".


Second:
Can we define what the tiers actually mean? I get that in Intrigue for example you're trying to say that Bards are really competent, but that's not at all what T1 means in the actual tier list (even in PF), so it's really confusing.This. I suggest you try pinning down what your two categories actually mean, preferably with multiple illustrative typical in-game examples.


Third, keep in mind you may want to split up some classes which have significantly weaker or stronger archetypes (or other options). For example, the Primalist bloodrager is virtually always stronger than its vanillla counterpart, and it certainly has the potential to be a lot stronger (it's the strongest full bab class/archetype - with the potential to be arguably one of the strongest in the game - in combat during nearly all levels). The same may be worth considering in the case of for example the Eldritch Archer magus, Lore Warden or Mutation Warrior fighter, Sacred Servant pally or a (half-)human sorcerer.

[HouseRules]

Doing a Same Game Test Combined with Niches and on a per Levels basis creates the best Tier System, but no one has the time to do so.

[Selion]

First, have a look at Person_Man's Niche Ranking System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System) if you haven't already. It attempts to do basically the same thing but with greater resolution (and somewhat better defined categories). May be worth it to refine and adapt this to PF instead of potentially "reinventing the wheel".


Second:This. I suggest you try pinning down what your two categories actually mean, preferably with multiple illustrative typical in-game examples.


Third, keep in mind you may want to split up some classes which have significantly weaker or stronger archetypes (or other options). For example, the Primalist bloodrager is virtually always stronger than its vanillla counterpart, and it certainly has the potential to be a lot stronger (it's the strongest full bab class/archetype - with the potential to be arguably one of the strongest in the game - in combat during nearly all levels). The same may be worth considering in the case of for example the Eldritch Archer magus, Lore Warden or Mutation Warrior fighter, Sacred Servant pally or a (half-)human sorcerer.

Fine arguments and nice role definitions.
I should take it in account. I still would like splitting combat from out of combat/downtime/intrigue, because in my experience there are characters that shine in one of these phases and are just a dead weight in the other. Fighters and barbarians usually remain competent in combat even at high levels (non as competent as a wizard, ok), but they suffer a huge gap out of combat. I feel the usual tiering lists don't take in account this feature of the game, a unexperienced player, reading these guides, may have the wrong impression.
Another thing that is not usually taken in account is variability of builds. A wizard may do everything, but isn't usually able to do everything at the same time, at least not at mid levels.
Let's begin dividing the suggested list of class features between combat and out of combat, then i'll try revising the previous tiering (i have the feeling there won't be major adjustment, though)
This will take a while.

Combat Out of combat Mixed

1) Battlefield Control: Prevent enemies from taking their normal actions and/or movement.

2) Buffer: Increase the abilities of allies.

3) Curiosity: Rarely used but helpful in some meaningful way. (Examples: Forgery, Tongues, Slow Fall, etc)

4) Debuffer: Reduce the abilities of enemies, usually by inflicting status effects.

5) Dominator: Take functional command of enemies.

6) Game Changer: Can proactively reshape the game (or realty) to suit your goals. (Examples: Wish, Miracle, Gate, Psychic Reformation, anything that completely breaks the action economy, etc)

7) Healer: Can restore hit points and remove harmful status effects for allies in combat.


8) Meat Shield: Can stand in the front line of combat with a reasonable chance of not getting killed.

9) Melee Damage: Deal meaningful damage to enemies within reach.

10) Mobility: Can circumvent battlefield control and barriers, and quickly pursue or retreat from enemies.

11) Party Face: Interacts with NPCs in a way that gets desirable results.

12) Ranged Damage: Deal meaningful damage to enemies at a range.

13) Sage: Knows or can find useful information.

14) Scout: Locates enemies, threats, and other useful things while remaining hidden.

15) Thief: Can take things from an enemy and enemy locations without being discovered.

16) Summoner: Can summon allies (or make them) that fills other niches without putting the character directly in harms way.

17) Trapfinder: Find and disarm or bypass traps.

*this is intended as "mostly" combat, "mostly" out of combat. I'm a little unsure about where to place summons, because i think they are more combat oriented, but they may be useful otherwise