Homebrew: Spell Slots to Cantrip

[viaFAMILIAR]

I've been playing with the idea of using spell slots to overcast cantrips, adding extra damage dice. In the earlier stages of play, this puts cantrips in line with level 1 spells. But in later stages, cantrips are already as good as most level 1 spells, if not better. Maybe I'm just understanding that cantrips are meant to replace lower level spells at higher tiers of play, but when you're adding 9th level slots to upcast a 4dX cantrip, is something wrong? Perhaps limit the overcasting by a single spell slot? Or add modifier to damage? But then you're stepping on the toes of clerics and warlocks with their potent spellcasting and agonizing blast, and possibly running into issues with class features which proc when casting leveled spells.

Has anyone done something similar at their tables?

[Chronos]

Strictly speaking, it's already possible to use a spell slot to cast a cantrip. It's just very seldom useful (Light, for overcoming magical darkness, is one of the few exceptions).

[Lalliman]

One damage die per spell level should be fine. It's not a favourable trade, so it's a situational ability that just adds some flexibility. (Unless, as you say, you use low-level spell slots as a high-level character, but at that point you have so many spell slots that you'll rarely want to use cantrips.) The only iffy part perhaps is that using it on Eldritch Blast would logically increase the number of rays, meaning a 3rd level warlock could shoot 3 rays or a 9th level warlock could shoot 7, all with Charisma damage bonus and possibly repelling blast. It's more powerful for them because their cantrip is a bigger component of their abilities. But even that seems alright because warlocks don't have low-level spell slots to waste, so they're giving up one of the few actual spells they could cast.

The only other reason I see for it being a problem is that it empowers casters while giving martials nothing. But again it's so small that I'm not too worried about that.

[KillingTime]

I'm not keen.
I think there's a fine balance between the power of levelled spells and the utility of cantrips. Upcasting cantrips spoils this.
If a caster decides to forgo learning a levelled damage spell to focus on control or utility then currently there is a trade-off.
By allowing the caster to upcast a cantrip there's no longer any reason to bother learning levelled attack spells (at least at low levels) and so this trade-off is negated.

[Snowbluff]

I would allow it. Having a tad more damage is fine to me.

How about this:

"If you cast a cantrip that deals damage using a spell slot, you can roll one of the cantrip’s damage dice one additional time for each level of the slot and add it to the damage."

By making the die singular, you only increase the damage once like with Savage Attacks on a half orc. This works with Eldritch blast by just giving +1d10 instead of the extra ray.

[Lalliman]

I'm not keen.
I think there's a fine balance between the power of levelled spells and the utility of cantrips. Upcasting cantrips spoils this.
If a caster decides to forgo learning a levelled damage spell to focus on control or utility then currently there is a trade-off.
By allowing the caster to upcast a cantrip there's no longer any reason to bother learning levelled attack spells (at least at low levels) and so this trade-off is negated.
It does indeed give a boost to characters who don't pick blasting spells, but it doesn't negate the benefit of picking them. A 1st level Firebolt (11 fire damage on a hit) is still worse than Chromatic Orb (13.5 damage of chosen type on hit), Magic Missile (10.5 guaranteed force damage), or Burning Hands (10.5 fire damage per target, save for half).

[PhantomSoul]

It does indeed give a boost to characters who don't pick blasting spells, but it doesn't negate the benefit of picking them. A 1st level Firebolt (11 fire damage on a hit) is still worse than Chromatic Orb (13.5 damage of chosen type on hit), Magic Missile (10.5 guaranteed force damage), or Burning Hands (10.5 fire damage per target, save for half).

If I got your suggested method right (upcast for an extra damage die per spell slot level), Firebolt + upcasting is strictly better than Chromatic Orb (for dealing fire damage) starting at level 5.



Spell Slot
Chromatic Orb
Firebolt, L1
Firebolt, L5
Firebolt, L11
Firebolt, L17


0
N/A
5.5
11
16.5
22


1
13.5
11
16.5
22
27.5


2
18
16.5
22
27.5
33


3
22.5
N/A
27.5
33
38.5


4
27
N/A
33
38.5
44


5
31.5
N/A
38.5
44
49.5


6
36
N/A
N/A
49.5
55


7
40.5
N/A
N/A
55
60.5


8
45
N/A
N/A
60.5
66


9
49.5
N/A
N/A
N/A
71.5

[Toofey]

Strictly speaking, it's already possible to use a spell slot to cast a cantrip. It's just very seldom useful (Light, for overcoming magical darkness, is one of the few exceptions).

I am totally unfamiliar with what you're speaking of, is this in the rules somewhere?


edit: also I thought this would be more "use a first level spell slot to be able to cantrip for an hour" which would make 'historical sense' as the original cantrip was a low cost long lasting spell, in 2nd ed you could do a bunch of different stuff with cantrip (mostly covered under minor illusion and prestidigitation) but it was a first level spell that let you do that stuff for 1 hour per level. I've thought about reintroducing that so there was some cost for cantrip, but it seems like not enough cost to be worthwhile and making it any more expensive seems too costly.

[Tiadoppler]

IMO, this would be a major balance change and step on Paladin's toes a lot. It's basically smite (the feature that makes Paladins great at burst DPR), but given to every full-caster. If another class can simply upcast Green-Flame Blade or Toll the Dead (you roll how many D12s?), Paladins get a lot less popular.

[sophontteks]

What about Eldritch Blast?
With Agonizing blast we're talking another 1d10+mod bolt per level.

[Zhorn]

What about Eldritch Blast?
With Agonizing blast we're talking another 1d10+mod bolt per level.

like what Snowbluff was saying


I would allow it. Having a tad more damage is fine to me.

How about this:

"If you cast a cantrip that deals damage using a spell slot, you can roll one of the cantrip’s damage dice one additional time for each level of the slot and add it to the damage."

By making the die singular, you only increase the damage once like with Savage Attacks on a half orc. This works with Eldritch blast by just giving +1d10 instead of the extra ray.

Even in the OP, viaRAILGUN said add an extra dice. Doesn't mean adding an extra beam. Eldritch Blast isn't worded the same as other scaling cantrips. It scales by beams instead of dice. At most this is only adding 1d10 per spell level.

[Vogie]

I've been playing with the opposite, ironically. I was looking at creating a new Metamagic option:

Downshift Spell A (requires 10th level)
When you would cast a spell at first level, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

Downshift Spell B (requires 10th level)
When you finish a long rest, you can choose a 1st level spell and spend 5 sorcery points. Until the end of your next long rest, you can cast that spell at first level as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

The desire of this was to make the Sorcerer the true lord of the Cantrip, by having the ability to turn a 1st level spell into a non-scaling cantrip (allowing them to replace something like Fire Bolt with Chaos Bolt or Magic Missile).

[Mjolnirbear]

So don't use the cantrip's dice damage.

Put A Little English In It Feat

One per turn, when you hit with a cantrip that does damage, you may sacrifice a spell slot. If you do, you do 1d6 extra damage, plus 1d6 per level of the sacrificed spell slot.

It makes Acid Splash almost useful, is less strong for Eldritch Blast and Firebolt and Toll the Dead, matches the damage type, and has a cost. The lower dice are a cost due to range.

Now as written it works for GFB, BB, and melee cantrips like Primal Strikes and Shillelagh. If this is a problem we can easily write the feat to only include ranged cantrips.

The biggest problem I see is, well, splatbook stacking. Getting extra damage on a cantrip requires significant investment. Several levels in dragon sorcerer, evoker wizard, caster clerics, Agonizing Blast, etc. This could change cantrips from "always have something to cast" to, well, warlocks, where cantrips are preferred and other spell slots used for utility. Do we want this?

[Mjolnirbear]

I've been playing with the opposite, ironically. I was looking at creating a new Metamagic option:

Downshift Spell A (requires 10th level)
When you would cast a spell at first level, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

Downshift Spell B (requires 10th level)
When you finish a long rest, you can choose a 1st level spell and spend 5 sorcery points. Until the end of your next long rest, you can cast that spell at first level as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

The desire of this was to make the Sorcerer the true lord of the Cantrip, by having the ability to turn a 1st level spell into a non-scaling cantrip (allowing them to replace something like Fire Bolt with Chaos Bolt or Magic Missile).

As written, you could turn Shield, Sleep, Cure Wounds, Sanctuary, Hex, Hellish Rebuke, Searing Smite, Armor of Agathys, Command, or Thunderwave into cantrips.

Limiting it to a spell that does damage might be better. Or restricting the spell in other ways (like only spells that target yourself)

[Randomthom]

The desire of this was to make the Sorcerer the true lord of the Cantrip, by having the ability to turn a 1st level spell into a non-scaling cantrip (allowing them to replace something like Fire Bolt with Chaos Bolt or Magic Missile).

Or give an entire army Mage Armor... Wouldn't come up often enough to be problematic I suppose though!
I like it but some spells would be insanely broken.
Shield is the main one that comes to mind, also Cure Wounds/Healing Word on a Divine Soul Sorcerer.

[Vogie]

As written, you could turn Shield, Sleep, Cure Wounds, Sanctuary, Hex, Hellish Rebuke, Searing Smite, Armor of Agathys, Command, or Thunderwave into cantrips.

Limiting it to a spell that does damage might be better. Or restricting the spell in other ways (like only spells that target yourself)

As a sorcerer, a 1st level spell is 2 sorcery points. Shifting it down to 1 sorc point isn't that terrifying.

But yeah, It'll probably have more restrictions. I'm waiting for my sorcerer player to get higher up in level before taking them aside and playtesting it.

I could see it as a problem with Shield or Cure Wounds, but Hex, Hellish Rebuke, Searing Smite, Armor of Agathys, Command, or Thunderwave as cantrips isn't that scary. Sorcerers have action economies and thing s hex & smite require concentration, AoA & Hellish Rebuke require getting hit repeatedly... as a level 10 sorcerer.

I can't see why anyone would take level 1 Sleep and cast it repeatedly at level 10, but... you can do anything, I suppose.

[Mjolnirbear]

Sleep: move through the whole invading army with a small team of assassins. Bad d8 rolls? Just cast it again.
The vast majority of civilization consists of creatures who the spell can affect. Hey, leys put everyone in the orphanage to sleep and set it on fire! Guard patrol? Sleeping. Potential burglary witnesses? Slumber. Kidnapping the Prince? Make sure he doesn't scream by making him take a nap. Remember that while there are a ton of creatures too strong to be subject to sleep, they are as rare and exceptional as adventurers; the 90% of the rest of the world is at best a tier 1 challenge, and there's no save for sleep.

Command: "surrender" can be fun against lawful creatures. Ok, few creatures are that lawful. But hit the generals with it and army morale will die.

AoA is limited as a first-level spell, but your conscripted pike suddenly become a LOT tougher and do more damage.

Thunderwave: Hold the bridge. By yourself, whilst hiding in a wagon to protect you from arrows.

Detect Magic, Identify, Comprehend Languages, Unseen Servant; these are pretty benign. A Wand of Unseen Servant than never runs out can be abused for sure but its much less a threat than sleep.

[PhantomSoul]

I've been playing with the opposite, ironically. I was looking at creating a new Metamagic option:

Downshift Spell A (requires 10th level)
When you would cast a spell at first level, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

Downshift Spell B (requires 10th level)
When you finish a long rest, you can choose a 1st level spell and spend 5 sorcery points. Until the end of your next long rest, you can cast that spell at first level as a cantrip instead, without expending a spell slot.

The desire of this was to make the Sorcerer the true lord of the Cantrip, by having the ability to turn a 1st level spell into a non-scaling cantrip (allowing them to replace something like Fire Bolt with Chaos Bolt or Magic Missile).

I'd definitely want to consider some tweaks (e.g. must be able to directly cause damage? Maybe single-target, but I like the damage option more in musing so far) before deciding on a final version, but love the idea. Synergises with Quicken Spell (unless you treat the ever-active metamagic as meaning you can't also use other metamagics), and lets you play with some potentially interesting combos (e.g. 2 * Earth Tremor to give them disadvantage on the second instance if they failed the first, Earth Tremor + Thunderwave for crowd control).

[MilkmanDanimal]

Even in the OP, viaRAILGUN said add an extra dice. Doesn't mean adding an extra beam. Eldritch Blast isn't worded the same as other scaling cantrips. It scales by beams instead of dice. At most this is only adding 1d10 per spell level.

Is that all? So, say, an 11th level Warlock using their 5th level spell slot would only fire three beams, each doing the normal 1d10 damage, but an additional 5d10 damage because they're using a slot? If you're adding it to beam, you've got an 18d10 death laser. Even if you add it only to the first beam (for some reason, which doesn't feel logically consistent), it's still a potential 8d10 attack, which is a lot in and of itself.

[JNAProductions]

Is that all? So, say, an 11th level Warlock using their 5th level spell slot would only fire three beams, each doing the normal 1d10 damage, but an additional 5d10 damage because they're using a slot? If you're adding it to beam, you've got an 18d10 death laser. Even if you add it only to the first beam (for some reason, which doesn't feel logically consistent), it's still a potential 8d10 attack, which is a lot in and of itself.

8d10 from a 5th level slot. That's 8 points of damage higher than Cone of Cold, but also single target, as compared to Cone of Cold's massive AoE.

Edit: Also, Via, you know we have a homebrew forum, right?

[viaFAMILIAR]

Here's an idea,

Overcast: A caster can spend a level 1 spell slot to overcast a damage dealing cantrip. Doing so uses the cantrip's next tier's damage dice.

This way both standardizes and limits this homebrewed ability.

Edit: written in this manner, warlocks couldn't use this past level 2. If instead we said 'any spell slot', warlocks would be free to use their higher slots(sorry locks?)

[viaFAMILIAR]

Also, Via, you know we have a homebrew forum, right?

Yes, but I'd rather present this to the 5e community since it's stricly 5e homebrew.

[JNAProductions]

Yes, but I'd rather present this to the 5e community since it's stricly 5e homebrew.

There’s a 5E tag for the homebrew forum.

Just post it there.