General Anime/Manga Discussion 16: In Another Thread With My Smartphone

[LaZodiac]

A n i m e.

M a n g a.

These are piece of media which we enjoy. Allegedly.

Anyway hey new thread.

Previous threads:
General Anime Discussion (née The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11932)
General Anime Discussion A's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82391)
General Anime Discussion StrikerS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94218)
∀ General Anime Discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100448)
G General Anime Discussion - Typing FINGER! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112197)
Anime/General Discussion: Paradox Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122049)
Anime 2.0: You Can (Generally) Discuss (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129473)
General Anime Discussion: The 08th GAD Team (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138873)
General Anime Discussion: Not An Anime!/⑨ is the strongest! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149190)
General Anime Discussion: After War GADam X (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161385)
General Anime Discussion: Area 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200541)
General Anime/Manga Discussion: Twelve Thread-doms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277941)
General Anime/Manga Discussion: Where Are We Golgoing 13? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321686-General-Anime-Manga-Discussion-Where-Are-We-Golgoing-13)
General Anime/Manga Discussion 13.5: Recap Episode (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?378183-General-Anime-Manga-Discussion-13-5-Recap-Episode)
General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434264-General-Anime-Manga-Discussion-14-Second-Cour)
General Anime/Mage Discussion 15: The Beach Episode (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553404-General-Anime-Manga-Discussion-15-The-Beach-Episode&p=22912952#post22912952)

[Ramza00]

So I need a reply here to subscribe...so let's post the MHA season 4 trailer that came out this week. Sorry funanimation has not subbed it yet.


https://youtu.be/sUoLeF6Re00

[gomipile]

I watched a little of the Netflix NGE dub, and I dislike it so far. I skipped ahead to some of my favorite lines from Asuka, and the voice actress just sounded... bored to me.

Lots of the translation in the first episode was way too literal, and I don't feel got across the tone of the dialogue well.

I hear they even changes the subtitles to be more literal but less meaningful.

I think the failure to include the covers of Fly Me to the Moon is a travesty.

I might try watching more some other time, but my first impressions are bad.

[LaZodiac]

I watched a little of the Netflix NGE dub, and I dislike it so far. I skipped ahead to some of my favorite lines from Asuka, and the voice actress just sounded... bored to me.

Lots of the translation in the first episode was way too literal, and I don't feel got across the tone of the dialogue well.

I hear they even changes the subtitles to be more literal but less meaningful.

I think the failure to include the covers of Fly Me to the Moon is a travesty.

I might try watching more some other time, but my first impressions are bad.

Yeah that seems like the general concensus, though some people are liking it (mainly people who've never seen it before, which is all right by me honestly).

The change to more literal translations over, plus music rights for In Otherwords falling through, are pretty tragic though.

[Drascin]

I can explain this!

It's a studio mandate from Japan. That's basically it. The people in charge of the actual series said "for this dub we'd like the line to be this". It's the same as how they're really trying to present Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus as Just Friends, even though they're allowing them to in show be like "hey Neptune let's _not_ talk about our sex lives in front of these people, let's save it for private" and stuff like that. It's way more explicit in the text but they want to present it as Just Friends on relationship charts and stuff.

Specifically caused by this incident with Rebuild 3: https://twitter.com/fooly_cooly/status/1142730726607114240

Ah, so it's another Sakamoto case. Japanese author gets involved in the translation despite having no idea of how translating things works because obviously as Almighty Author, he of course Knows Best.

(Course, the difference is that Other M was already ****ing atrocious before the bad dubbage forced by author added an extra layer of bad, while Evangelion was at least competent, but you know what I mean).

[Ramza00]

Ah, so it's another Sakamoto case. Japanese author gets involved in the translation despite having no idea of how translating things works because obviously as Almighty Author, he of course Knows Best.

(Course, the difference is that Other M was already ****ing atrocious before the bad dubbage forced by author added an extra layer of bad, while Evangelion was at least competent, but you know what I mean).

The irony is some of the non english Netflix subs and dubs are using an equivalent word to "love" and not the word "like" so on and so on.

So even with this intent, they did not get what they wanted.

[John Cribati]

Is it more ironic or serendipitous (or just funny) that I actually do most of my forum-ing on a smartphone?

[Pendulous]

Yay. As apparently the only person I know to actually like the show, I like that it fits well with the thread titles.


So as the season winds down, with some shows ending, and dubs closing in as well, I guess an end of season post would be a good way to subscribe.

9/10: Hitoribocchi no Marumaru Seikatsu - Plenty of shows go with the socially awkward main character. Not many can do it well enough that it doesn't feel either cringy or make you feel bad for laughing. Bocchi strikes a great balance of keeping it light and being genuinely hilarious. A season 2 is a must.

8/10: Sounds of Life - I picked this show up late, but I'm glad I did. The character development in this is top notch.

Rising of the Shield Hero - I am well aware of the problems with this show. I also tend to agree that the second half might be weaker than the first. I also still somehow enjoy this show every week.

Fruits Basket - I feel like this show just started to ramp up. It can be inconsistent at times. Some legitimately funny episodes, some solid emotional moments. But a lot of the cast still feels bland. It's a good thing Tooru is such a gem.

7/10: The Helpful Fox Senko-san - I appreciate that this show is basically meta talk for what seinen shows are for. It can be funny and cute at times, but also can be boring, and really plays with that line that crosses over to creepy.

We Never Learn - I'm liking this more than Quinuplets. Probably a lot of that has to do with the fact that the girls didn't start out all unlikable douches.

Senryuu Shoujo - A weak ending, but there's no denying that Nanako is diabetes in a mute can. One thing that sets this relationship apart is that you don't often see a girl and guy being longtime friends first, and seeing their relationship advance. Since, you know, the childhood friend never wins.

Kenja no Mago - You thought this was just another generic harem isekai, but it was me, Shin!

6/10: Strike Witches 501st JOINT FIGHTER WING Take Off! - It's uh, gotten better. But the jokes still feel mostly repeated from the main show. Just give me season 3 now.

5/10: Isekai Quartet - I guess it might be funnier if I had seen more than one show from the list?

Ao-chan Can't Study - Comparing this to Senryuu Shoujo and Fruits Basket, all of which air on the same day, and this show just feels so...superficial? The relationship is really hard to believe, Ao herself is so disorganized in her feelings, and I just...don't care. Also the dad was super annoying. I'd rather have Mineta from My Hero Academia than that guy.

Carole & Tuesday is a two-cour, so waiting on that to hit Netflix is gonna be long. Next season has a lot of stuff I'm eh on, but we'll see.

Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo - One of those shows I know nothing about other than the plot given, and it's vague as hell.

Arifureta - So, the idea of a whole class like Kenja no Mago, and the main character with a terrible power like When Supernatural Battles Become Commonplace.

Dumbbell Nan Kilo Moteru - I can't not watch the next Doga Kobo show (also already confirmed dub)

DanMachi season 2 - Been awhile, may have to rewatch season 1 to refresh my memory.

Fire Force - Really only gonna give it a show because of the hype.

Dr. Stone - See above.

Sounan Desu ka - Comedy about girls stuck on an island? How could I not?

Re:Stage! Dream Days - I have not been able to get into an idol show outside Love Live. Still trying.

Machikado Mazoku - This looks like Hina Logi or Endro, or a combination of.

Takagi-san season 2 - Didn't really like season 1, but I'd like to see if they get away from the repetitiveness.

Kawaikereba Hentai demo Suki ni Natte Kuremasu ka? - The trashy ecchi of the season I'll probably not make it far in.

Joshikousei no Mudazukai - It sounds so generic, but sometimes those are the ones that impress the most.

Isekai Cheat Magician - Between this, the one with the mom, and the above mentioned with the whole class, I think we've got it covered this season.

[LaZodiac]

Anyway, new chapters of series that don't get their own threads (which is at the moment just Chainsaw Man since I refuse to read {Scrubbed}The Last Saiyuki, it can go to hell and stay there).

{Scrubbed} that's actually horrifying.

This has been your weekly reminder that Chainsaw Man exists and is awesome.

[Ramza00]

Well Vox wrote an article about the Evangelion translation controversy.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/6/24/18701179/netflix-neon-genesis-evangelion-kaworu-gay-backlash

[John Cribati]

So A Silent Voice is up on Netflix and I was always interested in watching it, but I can't stand to watch more than like 2 minutes at a time with 10 minute breaks in-between because there's so much bullying and it makes me viscerally uncomfortable.

[LaZodiac]

We finally got the first Souma's Food Wars epilogue chapter.

They really, really think we give even the slightest **** about this? About THIS? Now? When the series is over???

****ing Hell Warden Higuma gets cancelled and gets one epilogue chapter that isn't even out yet, and it's one of the best new manga of the year, and... THIS is what a long running fan favorite series does for it's epilogue? Really?

God I ****ing hate Souma's Food Wars.

[Kato]

I mean, yeah, this is a huge disappointment, and I have no idea why this happened. But I also feel no urge at all to get worked up about the weird decisions of mangaka (or editors, or whoever) It is disappointing but that's about it.

Also, I still have no idea how I feel about Chainsaw man. I wish I could make up my mind one of these days.

[Ibrinar]

What was it about? I considered reading it but since I only know the start of the series I probably lack the context.

[LaZodiac]

What was it about? I considered reading it but since I only know the start of the series I probably lack the context.

Chainsaw Man continues to be a series that feels like it's one step away from cancellation, but persists in surviving despite all odds. It's super basic and weird and uncomfortable but also really interesting and drawn in a fascinating style and there's something to be said about how it is approaching it's themes.

[ellenate]

Again it's the animes that on the surface, have the most contrived premise, that i end up finding to be profound. Gunslinger girl first season's ending was so mesmerizing. :O

[Silfir]

I suppose it's officially the start of the new season for me - I've watched the first episode of Magical Sempai and added it to the roster. The episodes are 12 minutes each, but split up into five segments - that means the gag density is pretty enormous. The titular character is good fun and adorable - cute little fang, impossibly inept yet endearingly enthusiastic, silver hair, and yes, massive knockers. Also a talent to get herself into conspicuous situations. The main character seems to be a more than passable straight man, too. I don't expect this show to ever get boring, if only by the breakneck pacing with which it throws its gags at you. It's basically in the same category as Aho Girl - utter nonsense in terms of content, super fun opening sequence, leaves you with a smile on your face when you're done. Something I didn't get from the Ao-chan anime last season, weirdly enough - it didn't have the gag quality or density.

[LaZodiac]

The only anime this season that look appealing (beyond Retsuko) is Dr Stone, Astra Lost in Space, and Vinland Saga.

Stone is the one I'm most concerned about given the art style is very specific and unique and I'm unsure if animation will work for it or not. Astra is going to be likely one season since it's pretty short, and Vinland Saga is... well, I'm legit hyped for it.

[Silfir]

There's a bunch more on my potential list:

Joshikousei no Mudazukai. I've read the manga up to a point, it's decent fun. There's a {Scrubbed}girl who's my favorite.

Takagi-san, 2nd season. Maybe they'll come up with some anime-original stories. It should pass the time. It's mostly about the chemistry of the Japanese VAs for me.

Dumbbell nan Kilo Moteru? Senko-san was a bit of a snoozefest; let's see if this one brings the funny.

Machikado Mazoku. Apparently, this is a flipped magical girl show of some kind - the protagonist is a perfectly average girl who happens to be dirt poor, but one day is endowed with magical powers. Except they're demonic powers, and she's the dark magical girl on the side of evil. I suppose I expect her to not do a very good job, and for the "good" magical girl to be a bit of a piece of work. Could be fun.

For My Daughter, I'd Even Defeat the Demon Lord. Title's a handful... Please make it not creepy. Good wholesome adoptive parent/daughter slice of life, no wife husbandry under any circumstances. {Scrubbed}. Thank you in advance. (Also, I'm not trying the Mother/Son isekai show. Any soul brave enough to venture there, tell me if it's half as creepy as it sounds.)

Araburu Kisetsu no Otome-domo yo. Could be a fun romance slice of life show. 22 episodes and a "drama" tag is interesting. It doesn't look like it'd be pointless melodrama, the character designs are more on the fluffy side.



And yes, obviously Kanata ad Astra (though I've read the manga, which means I know the major twists beforehand - to anyone else: this is not a show you want to be spoiled on - tread carefully!) and first and foremost Vinland Saga.

[LaZodiac]

The author of Mom's Two-Hit Combo personally describes it as mom-con so yeah no don't touch it with even a ten foot pole.

Also we picked a good thread title given how ****ing many garbage isekai's are out this season. Good lord.

[Pendulous]

Magical Senpai was meh. I didn't really laugh at anything, and the guy just kind of being there is annoying. I hope things progress beyond what seems like a repetitive skit show.

First episode of Are You Lost was a little better. Though a lot of it was backstory to explain how they got to the island in the first place. It's a weird juxtaposition, to have this potentially deadly situation of being trapped on an island, being treated more as a comedy. It's not necessarily bad, but it makes me wonder what direction it's gonna go in. Not complaining at all, but I was not expecting the gratuitous panty shots.

I find it odd that "Demon Lord, Retry" sounds exactly like How Not to Summon a Demon Lord, but without the hot elf girl.

Yeah, there's a lot of isekai this season. And while I've kinda enjoyed the trashier ones recently (Smartphone, Death March), even I'm a little disappointed by it. Arifureta is my dark horse for being the best one, though even I'm not intending to watch all of em.

Fall is already looking like the season of sequels. My Hero Academia, Psycho-Pass, Radiant, Hi Score Girl (though thanks Netflix for waiting to stream their shows, this one doesn't count), Seven Deadly Sins (same), Food Wars, We Never Learn, Sounds of Life, Fairy Gone, Chihayafuru, and Granblue Fantasy. At least half of those I intend to watch, though I don't know if I wanna catch up with Radiant.

[Aotrs Commander]

So, watched first three episodes of Madoka Magika today. Interesting, since while it is my first time, it's sort of my second (thanks to SF Debris) and I think I'm enjoying it a lot more seeing how it fits together than I would completely cold (which is a usually entirely opposite).

(I did have to google what the hell "eight-grade" translates to, because as an old fogey, I can't even grock UK "year x" (since it came in just after my time) and I know people have all explained it to me before, but it just doesn't stick...)

Homura is the best.

[Prime32]

(I did have to google what the hell "eight-grade" translates to, because as an old fogey, I can't even grock UK "year x" (since it came in just after my time) and I know people have all explained it to me before, but it just doesn't stick...)What if I told you that Japan doesn't have a grade system, and the original line was in the "old fogey" format you grew up with? :smalltongue:

[Aotrs Commander]

What if I told you that Japan doesn't have a grade system, and the original line was in the "old fogey" format you grew up with? :smalltongue:

Well, wikipeida did at least have a conversion, at any rate.

When I were a lad, there wasn't really a system so much as just "first to third year infant," (5-7) "first to forth year junior" (8-11) and "first to fifth year senior" (12-16) - if even that - at least at the two schools I went to...

Be a lot easier if they just said the age and stuff directly, really...!

[LaZodiac]

Madoka Magica is real good ****. Definitely watch it in threes (three episodes a sitting) for the best experience.

[Aotrs Commander]

Madoka Magica is real good ****. Definitely watch it in threes (three episodes a sitting) for the best experience.

Which is kind of convenient, since that is my usual method of watching anime (or cartoons, for that matter!)



(FMA Brotherhood being a notably exception in that I did in more than that!)

[BWR]

For My Daughter, I'd Even Defeat the Demon Lord. Title's a handful... Please make it not creepy. Good wholesome adoptive parent/daughter slice of life, no wife husbandry under any circumstances. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}. Thank you in advance. (Also, I'm not trying the Mother/Son isekai show. Any soul brave enough to venture there, tell me if it's half as creepy as it sounds.)


Unless the show makes a radical departure from the manga, you're in luck.

[Silfir]

I remember reading a couple of chapters of the manga and having the same impression. But I am one of the unfortunate souls who looked up and read the Usagi Drop manga after watching the anime, so... You never quite trust the world the same ever again after that. Happily, the first episode looked like exactly the kind of good-natured fluff I was expecting.

I've also seen the first episode of Dumbbell, which I suppose was decent enough. Both the opening and the ending theme felt like I was listening to the Uzamaid ending again, which is not the worst thing. I wonder if it's going to get into the sports show formula of the main viewpoint character starting to go on competitions and the like, as implied by how the first episode ended, or just stay slice of life - also what the other characters from the intro (who have partially been shown, but yet to be introduced to the fitness studio setting) are going to add, since the school idol ojou-sama who is also a muscle fetishist, while amusing, doesn't have the depth to keep things interesting on her own.

Astra Lost in Space looks like a faithful adaptation so far, which is excellent because the manga is brilliant and I don't think there's anything you'd want to change. Experiencing the story for the second time is just as fun in an entirely different way. Suffice to say it's a sci-fi mystery show and if you've never read the manga you want to dodge spoilers at all costs. I wish the rest of the show was 45 minute episodes, too - apparently the announcement was just for the opener.

[Majin]

Just watched the first episode of Dr. Stone, seems an interesting show overall. The idea is cool, I just hope it's executed well. The characters at least seemed fun.

[ellenate]

I can't tell if the characters in gantz, are stupid, or just really realistic. Either way, I can't avert my eyes.

[Rynjin]

I can't tell if the characters in gantz, are stupid, or just really realistic. Either way, I can't avert my eyes.

You decided to watch Gantz?

My condolences.

[ellenate]

You decided to watch Gantz?

My condolences.

it's fascinating, is all i can say for the time being.

[Zalabim]

I can't tell if the characters in gantz, are stupid, or just really realistic. Either way, I can't avert my eyes.
It isn't unfair to describe Gantz as a train wreck. A train that runs over good and bad with the same enthusiasm. It feels like a warning, in hindsight.

You decided to watch Gantz?

My condolences.
I read the manga years ago. Is there another anime attempt going on, or is this just a new victim of an existing crime? It's not that there aren't good things to say about the material. There's just also a lot of bad things about it too. And the good is like "novel story, strong aesthetics, nonpredictable battles, wicked art" while the bad is stuff like "aborted plotlines (yes, there were vampires), body horror (and several other kinds), the depths of human depravity, and battles that run on bs."

[Aotrs Commander]

Hbi2k's Gantz abridged was a close as I think I need to come to that series...

[LaZodiac]

The only even remotely good thing about Gantz, aside from one or two characters, is that at the end everyone sings the One Piece anime theme as they're abducted into the human harvesting alien warship.

It is otherwise miserable and I hate it.

[Kato]

As someone who saw the anime when he was way younger and read the manga when it was ending..
I think the anime is fine at doing what it does. That is, assuming there isn't some deeper meaning it fails to convey, it's just a pretty average, decent looking death game with gore and nudity.
The manga is a much more mixed bag, but overall quite a mess with a few better bits of story. But... It can be pretty damn gorgeous to look at in its weirdness.


On another note, 7DS is still in its death throes and once again I'm reminded of one of the things I really dislike : how useless everyone is who isn't a sin (almost). I guess there are justifications for it but it still feels annoying to everybody else.

[Pendulous]

Hbi2k's Gantz abridged was a close as I think I need to come to that series...

Is it entertaining to watch an abridged for a show you've never seen? I don't think I've tried, outside of like LittleKuriboh's Naruto spoof. But that had his brand of humor that I was already familiar with, so I could get into it.

[Aotrs Commander]

Is it entertaining to watch an abridged for a show you've never seen? I don't think I've tried, outside of like LittleKuriboh's Naruto spoof. But that had his brand of humor that I was already familiar with, so I could get into it.

I have never watched Yu Gi Oh outside of one episode to decide it was dire, I only watched about half of DBZ (and a different dub), I've never watched Helsing at all, nor Berserk nor Escaflowne nor Yuyu Hakasho...

Actually, aside from Naruto Abridged (and LK's parody of Naruto Abridged) and FFVII Machineabridged, I think the majority of Abridged stuff was on stuff I've never (or would never) watch.

So, as thgey say, I think that rather speaks for itself.

[John Cribati]

Speaking of mega-violent anime/manga that thinks it's being deep and "woke" when it's really just unnecessarily edgy...

Elfen Lied.

Also the fan interpretation of Goblin Slayer.

[Kato]

Is it entertaining to watch an abridged for a show you've never seen? I don't think I've tried, outside of like LittleKuriboh's Naruto spoof. But that had his brand of humor that I was already familiar with, so I could get into it.
It depends on the Abridged show...
I think the better ones* require some knowledge of the original, or it's just a gag dub. The point of a parody is to take elements of the original work and exaggerate, subvert, twist them in another thing. TFS' Vegeta is funny because he is the original turned up to 11, Alucard and Anderson's relationship great because it removes all the subtlety from the subtext and makes their gay love obvious. If a show just makes pop culture references or meta jokes it can still be funny but imo it's not really a parody of the original. (That said, I won't claim I don't enjoy a bunch of jokes that are not strictly parodying the original. The original Abridged series used to and still very often is much disconnected from the anime but it's still very enjoyable)


*that is, the ones that actually refer to the events in the original, not just make random jokes



Speaking of mega-violent anime/manga that thinks it's being deep and "woke" when it's really just unnecessarily edgy...

Elfen Lied.

Didn't we just do this and come to basically all agree on it? :smallconfused:

[John Cribati]

If we did, I don't remember.

[Kato]

If we did, I don't remember.

Sorry, maybe it wasn't that recently ... I cannot find it by searching the forums, so my memory is probably more messed up than I thought.

Okay: Elfenlied is at best a pretty mess. The animation is good and so is the soundtrack but I think it's among the few anime I consider I hate, mostly because of how misanthropic it is. I can take the gratitious violence and nudity but 99% of the story is effed up. (~50 word review)

[Rynjin]

Man, I forgot how strong Vinland Saga was from the word go. I was hoping the adaptation would be good and so far it's amazing.

[Lethologica]

It depends on the Abridged show...
I think the better ones* require some knowledge of the original, or it's just a gag dub. The point of a parody is to take elements of the original work and exaggerate, subvert, twist them in another thing. TFS' Vegeta is funny because he is the original turned up to 11, Alucard and Anderson's relationship great because it removes all the subtlety from the subtext and makes their gay love obvious. If a show just makes pop culture references or meta jokes it can still be funny but imo it's not really a parody of the original. (That said, I won't claim I don't enjoy a bunch of jokes that are not strictly parodying the original. The original Abridged series used to and still very often is much disconnected from the anime but it's still very enjoyable)


*that is, the ones that actually refer to the events in the original, not just make random jokes
But the good ones are often also structured so that non-viewers can understand what's being referenced or parodied by the nature of the reference/parody itself. Certainly I didn't have to go watch DBZ or Hellsing Ultimate to understand how the abridged versions related to them.

[John Cribati]

Depends on how easy it is to tell when the abridger is parodying an element of the work. I'm sure someone who's never seen Yu-Gi-Oh will understand the "we'll solve this by playing a children's card game" parts but will be lost at, for example, the Catapult Turtle part and not see exactly why "this game is a load of bollocks"

[Silfir]

With Takagi-san being fashionably late, more first impressions so far:

Wasteful Days of Highschool Girl is looking all right. An odd mixture of characters - some of them are kind of legitimately awful people, but there's a bunch that are just massive weirdos in an adorable way. I'm a big fan of both the {Scrubbed}one and the really tiny one who very desperately tries to get taken seriously. Some Asobi Asobase vibes - though not quite as funny and well-animated.

I watched the first episode of Granbelm. It has chibi mechas, and what looks to be an excuse plot aimed at facilitating chibi mecha fights. What put me off a fair bit was that they tried very hard to make the various fighting mages/mecha riders look super intense and rip**** pissed while they were fighting, while I still had no idea who they were or why they were even fighting in the first place. Honestly, I struggle to name something about the show that I would consider particularly notable or interesting; it's just generic. I could watch more of it to see if there is something, but that's very unlikely to happen. (It had this one line that was kinda funny - in which the main character briefly thinks she's been reborn into an isekai show and gets very excited about it, only to learn that no, that wasn't what was happening.)

Maidens of the Savage Season, it turns out, is about a group of nerdy, misfit highschool girls in a literature club who, being in the range of 16-18 years old and having read one too many serious literature novel that included erotic scenes, suddenly realize they're very, very interested in everything related to sex. It looks like a super fun coming of age dramedy. Certainly one of the highlights of the season.

Another highlight, of course, is Vinland Saga. What I've seen so far is promising enough. I've read the manga up to a point, which hampers the enjoyment a little since I pretty much remember what happens.

[Aotrs Commander]

Depends on how easy it is to tell when the abridger is parodying an element of the work. I'm sure someone who's never seen Yu-Gi-Oh will understand the "we'll solve this by playing a children's card game" parts but will be lost at, for example, the Catapult Turtle part and not see exactly why "this game is a load of bollocks"

Ironically the one only episode I watched WAS the one with the catapult turtle...

[Silfir]

He's a world-weary policeman who just lost his partner. She's a magic knight from behind the portal to the world of fairies and monsters. Together, they fight crime!

Out of nowhere, Cop Craft got its hooks in me with its first episode. It looks well-executed, and I always love the fish-out-of-water angle.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Man, I forgot how strong Vinland Saga was from the word go. I was hoping the adaptation would be good and so far it's amazing.
I was incredibly impressed by how quickly they sold me on the goodness of the adaptation. I was a little skeptical of their decision to start it up where they did (based on the first two episodes), but I think this is going to be a phenomenal opening.


It's interesting that they so quickly seem to be moving towards Askeladd's betrayal of Thors, when the manga took time establishing Thorfinn as one of his men, then making you wonder why he always challenged Askeladd to duels, finally revealing the moment of treachery. But I think it's going to wind up being a lot more poignant this way, because it takes on the arc of a doomed hero with a very foreshadowed death. Then we'll go back and show that impacting Thorfinn.

[deuterio12]

I read the manga years ago. Is there another anime attempt going on, or is this just a new victim of an existing crime? It's not that there aren't good things to say about the material. There's just also a lot of bad things about it too. And the good is like "novel story, strong aesthetics, nonpredictable battles, wicked art" while the bad is stuff like "aborted plotlines (yes, there were vampires), body horror (and several other kinds), the depths of human depravity, and battles that run on bs."

My couple top favorite things were:
-The protagonist's growth. He starts as a wimp desperately trying to have sex with any hot women that shows up. But eventually after everybody else dies he starts taking responsibility, not only fighting the aliens head on but also providing leadership to the newbies and even figuring out the normal girl next door has feelings for him and so starting to date her. And when eventually super hot idol falls for the protagonist, he makes it clear right away he already has somebody in his heart and will stick with her.
-When said idol that got dumped just decides to exploit the setting's mechanics to get a copy of the protagonist to serve as her personal boyfriend. In particular because it explores the whole "replacement clone" aspect that shows up in plenty of media, but rarely taken in account that you don't need to wait for the original to die to make a copy. Plus hey, a pretty nice way of solving love triangles. Also hilarious when the protagonist meets his clone and one of them goes "Wow, talking to myself like this, I ralize how much of a d*** I can be".

And I would consider that exploring "the depths of human depravity" isn't necessarily a bad thing. In particular when characters often get punished by it, like that other dude at start who tries to abuse the "you can use your super weapons against anybody between missions as long as you don't leave witnesses" and ends up having his head bomb detonated. Similarly body horror may not be everybody's cup of tea, but there's plenty of fans for that. (cough Franken Fran cough).

In the other hand the vampires aborted plotline and all the bs being pulled during battles were plain bad yes.

[ben-zayb]

I was tempted to read Fire Force after watching a well-animated and hype first episode, which is understandably more exciting than Dr. Stone's first ep. The Fire Force anime is a large step up compared to the manga art. I though the fan service would dial down but 50+ chapters in and I'm still a bit bothered with the excessive amount of fanservice.

For anyone who has read Fire Force (Enen no Shobotai) farther than me, I'm curious if this just a thing the manga does, or does it stop or dial down at some point.

[LaZodiac]

I was tempted to read Fire Force after watching a well-animated and hype first episode, which is understandably more exciting than Dr. Stone's first ep. The anime is a large step up compared to the manga art. I though the fan service would dial down but 50+ chapters in and I'm still a bit bothered with the excessive amount of fanservice.

For anyone who has read it farther than me, I'm curious if this just a thing the manga does, or does it stop or dial down at some point.

If you mean Dr Stone, there isn't muuuch fanservice, but it's artist literally did porn so you get what you paid for. Don't know anything about Fire Force.

[ben-zayb]

If you mean Dr Stone, there isn't muuuch fanservice, but it's artist literally did porn so you get what you paid for. Don't know anything about Fire Force.

Whoops, I meant Fire Force.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah no idea then.

Anyway, Manga that don't deserve threads time: Black Clover looks like it'll be ending soon, and Chainsaw Man persists despite every single solitary thing (and even gets a colour page!)

[Excession]

He's a world-weary policeman who just lost his partner. She's a magic knight from behind the portal to the world of fairies and monsters. Together, they fight crime!

Out of nowhere, Cop Craft got its hooks in me with its first episode. It looks well-executed, and I always love the fish-out-of-water angle.

Well that sounds like exactly my kind of thing. I will add that to my queue.

I just finished watching The Promised Neverland. Absolutely amazing, but parts of it hurt. Waiting for season two so I can do that to myself again.

[uncool]

Is it entertaining to watch an abridged for a show you've never seen? I don't think I've tried, outside of like LittleKuriboh's Naruto spoof. But that had his brand of humor that I was already familiar with, so I could get into it.

Depends strongly on the abridged (or the abridger). The big-name series are pretty good on their own - I've never seen Hellsing, but Hellsing abridged is damn amusing. You're almost guaranteed to be missing out on some of the humor, though - I've also seen DBZA, and their series definitely had some jokes that really only work for people who watched the show (e.g. Piccolo's backstory references). With most of the random abridged series I've seen, most of the humor comes from subverting the series, which only works if you've seen it (e.g. Code Ment does a lot by making Lelouch stupid, Suzaku a complete moron, etc.)

On that note, which abridged series would you guys recommend? I've seen most of the major ones - DBZA, Hellsing Abridged, YGOTAS, SAOA, and Code Ment - and am hoping there are others close to the same level.

[Rysto]

Unlimited Blade Works Abridged is excellent, but it definitely requires knowledge of the source material (to the point that they even threw in a gag calling out people who complained about it). Ideally you'd want to have seen all of Unlimited Blade Works, Fate/Zero and Heaven's Feel going into it.

[Lord Raziere]

Depends strongly on the abridged (or the abridger). The big-name series are pretty good on their own - I've never seen Hellsing, but Hellsing abridged is damn amusing. You're almost guaranteed to be missing out on some of the humor, though - I've also seen DBZA, and their series definitely had some jokes that really only work for people who watched the show (e.g. Piccolo's backstory references). With most of the random abridged series I've seen, most of the humor comes from subverting the series, which only works if you've seen it (e.g. Code Ment does a lot by making Lelouch stupid, Suzaku a complete moron, etc.)

On that note, which abridged series would you guys recommend? I've seen most of the major ones - DBZA, Hellsing Abridged, YGOTAS, SAOA, and Code Ment - and am hoping there are others close to the same level.

I liked Hellsing abridged even though I only kind of watched Hellsing for like two episodes and don't really remember it. its definitely the blackest of TFS's humor though.

Sorry, you've probably seen all the good ones to my knowledge. I mean there is a single episode of MHA Abridged made by the same guy who did SAOA with Takahata doing a great All-Might, but Something Witty takes forever and a half to make any episodes at all.

[Silfir]

As far as I'm concerned there is one more "good one" - Nullmetal Alchemist, based on the 2003 anime.{Scrubbed}

[LaZodiac]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Ignoring the happy ending edit there, I do love how being an anime fan is so recursive. That exact sentence could be said about a lot of anime *glares at Mon-Colle Knights menacingly*.

Honestly, aside from Jojo, Yugioh, DBZ and Hellsing (the latter of which went a little try-hard on some of it's jokes) I can't even remotely stand abridged series. I've ricocheted off them like a rubber bullet. I think part of it is that they seem to not understand what the term "abridged" means. It means... shortened. As in not longer than the original. I also feel like every abridged series should, even for a bad series, speak to what good is in it (even garbage like SAO) and sort of... I don't know, embrace the series for all it's positives and flaws? I feel like there should be some degree of love present in the series, otherwise it starts to feel kinda meanspirited. I think DBZ and Yugioh probably did that the best, with Jojo a close second and Hellsing being... a little too far.

Also it should really tell you something that of the Abridged series I like, all but one of them are made by the same team.

[Majin]

Honestly, aside from Jojo, Yugioh, DBZ and Hellsing (the latter of which went a little try-hard on some of it's jokes) I can't even remotely stand abridged series. I've ricocheted off them like a rubber bullet. I think part of it is that they seem to not understand what the term "abridged" means. It means... shortened. As in not longer than the original. I also feel like every abridged series should, even for a bad series, speak to what good is in it (even garbage like SAO) and sort of... I don't know, embrace the series for all it's positives and flaws? I feel like there should be some degree of love present in the series, otherwise it starts to feel kinda meanspirited. I think DBZ and Yugioh probably did that the best, with Jojo a close second and Hellsing being... a little too far.

Also it should really tell you something that of the Abridged series I like, all but one of them are made by the same team.

I agree with the sentiment, and I remember Teamfourstar members saying in a stream they won't do GT, because many of them just don't really like it. I didn't any feeling of meanspritedness from Hellsing though. I'd read the manga a bit before, and the abridged inspired me to watch the OVAs.

Yugioh abridged didn't really get me into watching the show proper, though maybe if I was younger I would have. I did read the first the couple volumes of the manga after watching Season Zero Abridged when I got the chance, it seemed pretty interesting.

[LaZodiac]

I agree with the sentiment, and I remember Teamfourstar members saying in a stream they won't do GT, because many of them just don't really like it. I didn't any feeling of meanspritedness from Hellsing though. I'd read the manga a bit before, and the abridged inspired me to watch the OVAs.

Yugioh abridged didn't really get me into watching the show proper, though maybe if I was younger I would have. I did read the first the couple volumes of the manga after watching Season Zero Abridged when I got the chance, it seemed pretty interesting.

There was a little bit of mean spiritedness in Hellsing, but that felt less directed at the show and more going just a touch too far with some of the jokes. I don't know, I was watching it with a friend of some the black humour got a bit too much. In this case it's like they're trying to emphasize Hellsing as this shock-comedy style thing, when it's really got a lot of lighthearted joking around and stuff (even in the horrifying finale). So in a sense that comes off as... wrong, for the series I guess? I don't know, I'm just blathering.

Also to be quite honest you don't need to abridge GX it does it it own damn self, just look at the dinosaur dude and his dinosaur bone that is in his leg to make him half dinosaur man. The sub is more serious of course, and it unironically gets to a point where it's probably the best Yugioh has ever been, whereas the Dub didn't do the final arc and is far more goofy.

[Lord Raziere]

Ignoring the happy ending edit there, I do love how being an anime fan is so recursive. That exact sentence could be said about a lot of anime *glares at Mon-Colle Knights menacingly*.

Honestly, aside from Jojo, Yugioh, DBZ and Hellsing (the latter of which went a little try-hard on some of it's jokes) I can't even remotely stand abridged series. I've ricocheted off them like a rubber bullet. I think part of it is that they seem to not understand what the term "abridged" means. It means... shortened. As in not longer than the original. I also feel like every abridged series should, even for a bad series, speak to what good is in it (even garbage like SAO) and sort of... I don't know, embrace the series for all it's positives and flaws? I feel like there should be some degree of love present in the series, otherwise it starts to feel kinda meanspirited. I think DBZ and Yugioh probably did that the best, with Jojo a close second and Hellsing being... a little too far.

Also it should really tell you something that of the Abridged series I like, all but one of them are made by the same team.

Yeah pretty much my view of things to. parodies of anything that are too mean spirited just don't work.

most abridged series are just a bunch of random bad jokes with no real effort put into them with anime footage playing. 90% of everything in media is garbage and abridged series is a smaller pool of art style than most. it wouldn't surprise me if we've already the gotten the best we'll ever get from it. given the ever increasing efforts of companies to stamp out anything that looks vaguely like piracy, it won't surprise me if abridged series simply die out for less risky forms of entertainment. I'd argue its already happening.

though I guess If The Emperor Had a Text To Speech Device would count as an abridged series if WH40k had a series to abridge, but it doesn't so I don't even know what it is, I guess its a fan parody series

"I'm a marvel and I'm a DC" is also a fan parody series of a similar vein to an abridged series that has been producing stuff again.

yeah I think abridged series in its original form won't stick around, but the spirit of fan parodies will continue to live in various forms. though some things aren't even parodies, if any of you are fans of chrono trigger/undertale and musicals check out Man on the Internet. they do some fantastic songs, of those two and other songs on the side.

also there is a Jojo Abridged and its made by a member of Teamfourstar?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"I'm a marvel and I'm a DC" is also a fan parody series of a similar vein to an abridged series that has been producing stuff again.
Holy smokes I feel old seeing that mentioned. It was twelve freaking years ago when that started???

[LaZodiac]

Yeah pretty much my view of things to. parodies of anything that are too mean spirited just don't work.

most abridged series are just a bunch of random bad jokes with no real effort put into them with anime footage playing. 90% of everything in media is garbage and abridged series is a smaller pool of art style than most. it wouldn't surprise me if we've already the gotten the best we'll ever get from it. given the ever increasing efforts of companies to stamp out anything that looks vaguely like piracy, it won't surprise me if abridged series simply die out for less risky forms of entertainment. I'd argue its already happening.

though I guess If The Emperor Had a Text To Speech Device would count as an abridged series if WH40k had a series to abridge, but it doesn't so I don't even know what it is, I guess its a fan parody series

"I'm a marvel and I'm a DC" is also a fan parody series of a similar vein to an abridged series that has been producing stuff again.

yeah I think abridged series in its original form won't stick around, but the spirit of fan parodies will continue to live in various forms. though some things aren't even parodies, if any of you are fans of chrono trigger/undertale and musicals check out Man on the Internet. they do some fantastic songs, of those two and other songs on the side.

also there is a Jojo Abridged and its made by a member of Teamfourstar?

I should clarify that I feel some of the jokes in Hellsing Abridged were mean spirited due to taking the series darker than even it needed to. I don't think Hellsing Ultimate itself is mean spirited (in so far as you can use the term given the concept of the series) and think it actually goes to some goofy, nice places that stop it from being utterly grimdark. Hellsing Abridged dips a bit too darkly for my tastes.

Antfish did the Jojo abridged for parts 1, 2, and 3. I don't know if he ever did it for four, or if he'll do it for five. I don't know if Antfish is attached to Teamfourstar in any way since I know nothing about people.

[gomipile]

I like the first episode of Cop Craft.

Does anyone know if it will be one or two cours?

[Silfir]

I think the answer to that question is "No". It's listed with "unknown number of episodes" everywhere. My money would be on one cour, especially after looking at the studio that's doing it. It's recently established and doesn't have the most shining track record - it includes the 2016 Berserk adaptation, a known trainwreck, and everything else is one cour. (Well, not Teekyuu, but that has two minute episodes.) That being said, there's nothing to indicate that the director isn't perfectly competent as long as there's a minimal amount of CGI involved. Cop Craft has certainly had a good first episode.

Anyway, Gatoh couldn't prevent Invisible Victory from being one cour, despite it rushing through multiple light novels at breakneck speed - would be a little odd to get that double the episodes for an unproven property, especially since light novel adaptations are usually made to help sell the light novel. Never read the Cop Craft light novels, though, so your guess is as good as mine.



In other news, I've added another show to watch - there's a ton of them now: Machikado Mazoku, the show about the girl who wakes up one day to learn that she's the descendant of a clan of devils and her purpose is to fight the good guys. It's got a fairly unusual style that I enjoy overall, even if it's at least partially used to keep the budget down. Since the talk was of abridged series - this show is an affectionate parody of the magical girl genre, as far as I can tell, and I love the "antagonist" - the good magical girl, who it turns out saved the world six years ago and apparently has been struggling with a lack of purpose, loneliness and depression ever since (think Saitama - she's that kind of OP), and seems low-key super happy to be the center of Yuko's attention, even if Yuko is technically trying to drain her blood and use it to break the curse on a demonic statue (that her family has been using as a door stop). Among other things, the show answers the question of why villains never interrupt the magical girl transformation by including a timer in the bottom right that clarifies it takes exactly 0.01 seconds to complete. If you look closely, you can tell that the accessory that is used to trigger the transformation of the "good" magical girl - some kind of jewelry case - is being used to store hairclips, screws and a 500 yen coin. I could go on. It's a show that I didn't realize is exactly what I wanted - I love tongue-in-cheek takes on the magical girl genre.

[Pendulous]

I can't get into those deep psychological magical girl shows, but I like the ones that aren't all that serious. Hina Logi, Leviathan: The Last Defense. Similarly, I like these fantasy shows that do the same. Last time it was Endro. This time it's Machikado Mazoku. First ok was ok, though it wasn't quite as funny to me as I had hoped. I do like the idea of a magical girl and a demon becoming friends instead of fighting, which is sort of how Endro works.

[Kato]

I should clarify that I feel some of the jokes in Hellsing Abridged were mean spirited due to taking the series darker than even it needed to. I don't think Hellsing Ultimate itself is mean spirited (in so far as you can use the term given the concept of the series) and think it actually goes to some goofy, nice places that stop it from being utterly grimdark. Hellsing Abridged dips a bit too darkly for my tastes.


I mean, Hellsing is pretty dark, with lots of violence, including rape. Of course it also has goofy moments but those don't remove the darker aspects.
The Abridged version I guess has a tendency to go to the dark places more often {scrubbed} but I don't think it's much darker than the original. Maybe if I was to take it serious you could say it's message about humans is a bit dark but I don't feel like doing that, really.

sidenote: There used to be some good Gundam Abridged seriesbut sadly all of them died. I guess it's a very hard hobby to keep up if you have not as much success as LK or TFS.

[LaZodiac]

New Chainsawman!

This series is ****ing stupid in the best way. What if the dumbest people in the world decided to try and be smart? I genuinely wonder what's going to come of this.

[Rodin]

Fire Force's second episode now has me officially Interested. I was expecting a Monster-of-the-Week start for a few episodes while the show settles in, but what we got instead was...wow. If they keep up with depth like that this show has promise.

Dr. Stone meanwhile kinda disappointed me with it's second episode. It was very cliche after the interestingly off-beat first episode, and it just wasn't all that exciting.

Vinland Saga looks promising. Anyone else find it weird to watch subtitled? I ordinarily don't have any issues, but the show is so Nordic that hearing the characters speak Japanese is kind of off-putting. Not that English is a whole lot better objectively, but at least I'm used to that.

[Kato]

New Chainsawman!

This series is ****ing stupid in the best way. What if the dumbest people in the world decided to try and be smart? I genuinely wonder what's going to come of this.

Yeah, that was / will probably be hilarious. It really is such a weirdly enjoyable series, but I wonder who is editing this. It seems so easy to see the rough edges, like the blank backgrounds, but nobody seems to bother. Or is it intentional? :smallconfused:

Also, goddammit, 7DS. Just stop. Please. Yes, you can draw fancy fights scenes. But... This chapter was worth like three pages of actual content.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, that was / will probably be hilarious. It really is such a weirdly enjoyable series, but I wonder who is editing this. It seems so easy to see the rough edges, like the blank backgrounds, but nobody seems to bother. Or is it intentional? :smallconfused:

Also, goddammit, 7DS. Just stop. Please. Yes, you can draw fancy fights scenes. But... This chapter was worth like three pages of actual content.

It feels intentional, since it only pops up in certain spots.

God I forgot to check if Yugioh updated so I can read 18 more pages of absolute genuine nonsense.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Vinland Saga looks promising. Anyone else find it weird to watch subtitled? I ordinarily don't have any issues, but the show is so Nordic that hearing the characters speak Japanese is kind of off-putting. Not that English is a whole lot better objectively, but at least I'm used to that.
Honestly, I'm kinda tuning out the dialogue because yeah, having read the manga, hearing all the Norse names in Japanese is a little weird.

[Rynjin]

Dr. Stone meanwhile kinda disappointed me with it's second episode. It was very cliche after the interestingly off-beat first episode, and it just wasn't all that exciting.

Dr. Stone is a series that...morphs, let's say. Without spoiling anything the early parts of the series are basically completely different than the actual series, and serve primarily just to establish the world, characters, and general premise.

Stick with it; you'll probably be pleasantly surprised.


Vinland Saga looks promising. Anyone else find it weird to watch subtitled? I ordinarily don't have any issues, but the show is so Nordic that hearing the characters speak Japanese is kind of off-putting. Not that English is a whole lot better objectively, but at least I'm used to that.

It's kinda wonky, yeah, but I've been too hyped for too long to wait for the dub. The series is one of my all time favorites.

I like that they decided to reshuffle the early parts. These bits used to be a big flashback arc to finally contextualize the plot at the start of the series, but they just work so much better as the lead in. Similar to how Berserk should have just started with the Golden Age instead of the Black Swordsman arc.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah, the buildup is markedly different but very improved. It's interesting to watch the contextualization being given to, say, Askeladd. What I really dig is that the opening now underscores the key themes of the manga and slowly builds into them, instead of having them fleshed out after a stereotypical shounen-style opening chapter.

[ellenate]

Dr. Stone meanwhile kinda disappointed me with it's second episode. It was very cliche after the interestingly off-beat first episode, and it just wasn't all that exciting.


Dr. stone is pretty dry when it comes to excitement.

[sleepy hedgehog]

I really liked Dr. Stone's first episode.
Since, in a different anime, it could have easily been turned into an entire season.

But yeah, the second episode felt completely different than the first.
So it'll be fun to see where it goes.

[ellenate]

Finished gantz and yeah... i can see why it's hated.

Though i can't help but notice the thin line between this and say something like evangelion. The difference being that the latter "worked".

[LaZodiac]

Finished gantz and yeah... i can see why it's hated.

Though i can't help but notice the thin line between this and say something like evangelion. The difference being that the latter "worked".

It's not even that it's a downer ending, it's that it's a sucky ending on top of it.

[Rodin]

It's not even that it's a downer ending, it's that it's a sucky ending on top of it.

Wait, are we talking about Gantz here, or Evangelion?

[Aotrs Commander]

Watched the next three episodes of Madoka (to episode six).

Things to take away:

Ye gods, poor Homura. Watching this and knowing what she going through, just... Ouch. (Expecially Madoka's "I'll always remember you!", Ooof.) She is master of the sick burns, though, hahaha!

Madoka's mum is terrible at being a mum, I mean, seriously.

Yeah, being a phylactery bound Lich is definitely inferior to be Spirit-Bound girls. (I'd sort of forgtten that.) But, hey, I'll take a show about Magical Liches any day of the week! I mean, of all the places I finally get some sort of representation, but hey, I'll take it.

(Also, this makes Homura even more aweome.)

But, most of all, [expletive] you, bunny-cat.

[EXPLETIVE]. YOU. Bunny-cat.

Just.

Wow.

Everything about that thing just makes me want to grab it by the conceptual essense, squeeze it until its soul-skull shatters and then repeatedly. Pound. The. Leaking. Mass. Into a meta-casual reality wall again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again until its thrashing, helpless screams echo across all of every reality.

It offends me on level I can't adequately fathom.

[ellenate]

Wait, are we talking about Gantz here, or Evangelion?


I guess i was spot on about that thin line. lol

[John Cribati]

I still find it so weird that Japanese watchers in general were surprised that Kyubey was the "villain." That thing set off a thousand horror movie tropes whenever it sneezed in the girl's general direction.

It must be the inherent trust in cute things that overshadowed the "I found this thing in a dark, under-construction section of a mall."

[LaZodiac]

Wait, are we talking about Gantz here, or Evangelion?

Gantz.



Ye gods, poor Homura. Watching this and knowing what she going through, just... Ouch. (Expecially Madoka's "I'll always remember you!", Ooof.) She is master of the sick burns, though, hahaha!

Madoka's mum is terrible at being a mum, I mean, seriously.

Yeah, being a phylactery bound Lich is definitely inferior to be Spirit-Bound girls. (I'd sort of forgtten that.) But, hey, I'll take a show about Magical Liches any day of the week! I mean, of all the places I finally get some sort of representation, but hey, I'll take it.

[EXPLETIVE]. YOU. Bunny-cat.


Homura is the best and deserves nothing bad to happen to her ever.

Magical Lich Girls is probably my favorite twists of the twists, beyond the initial Big One.

Bunny-cat's a ****.


I still find it so weird that Japanese watchers in general were surprised that Kyubey was the "villain." That thing set off a thousand horror movie tropes whenever it sneezed in the girl's general direction.

It must be the inherent trust in cute things that overshadowed the "I found this thing in a dark, under-construction section of a mall."

"Form a contract with me" isn't an inherently ominous thing in Japan as it is in America.

[deuterio12]

"Form a contract with me" isn't an inherently ominous thing in Japan as it is in America.

One would think that all the animes/mangas where the initial "form a contract with me" has terrible repercussions down the line would wise them up.

Related, anybody checked the Puella Magi Tart Magica spin-off manga?


Aka the one who covers Jean de Arc's life as a magical girl.

More interesting bit for me is that the big bad is a magical girl who who was already a smart, ruthless and amibitious person before so when offered the "form a contract with me" bit she first questioned the hell out of past Kyubey about the whole magic girl business and then wished to get all of Kyubey's abilities and knowledge so she could mass-produce her own army of magical girls. Leading to past Kyubey himself going "oh crap what have I done" as the big bad started monopolizing not only magical girl recruitment but also witch hunting so she got the spiritual energy all for herself.

[Silfir]

I suppose now that I know what I know, I have to unrecommend "If It's for My Daughter etc". There's a chance whoever's making it will take their cues from the Usagi Drop anime director and just stop before it gets weird, but it's safest to wait.

What's the appeal of this wife husbandry nonsense? Not that I know what exact course they're taking with this particular story to try and justify it, but I'm not exactly keen on finding out, either. I've read the Usagi Drop manga - I've done my time.



Maybe this is part of what I enjoy about Hinamatsuri. It has an adolescent girl being taken care of by a single adult man, and at no point does even a shred of romance develop between them, ever. It's so easy to take things like that for granted.

In a weird twist, the Okaa-san Online anime appears to just be a comedy that feeds off its premise for humorous purposes, much like Uzamaid did, so the odds of me watching it have gone up. Funny how that works.

[Lord Raziere]

One would think that all the animes/mangas where the initial "form a contract with me" has terrible repercussions down the line would wise them up.


{Scrubbed}

[John Cribati]

Again, I mistrusted Kyubey from the start based solely upon the setting in which Marika forst met him. The idea that cutesiness can overpower that is what's really shocking to me.

[BWR]

But, most of all, [expletive] you, bunny-cat.

[EXPLETIVE]. YOU. Bunny-cat.

.






Bunny-cat's a ****.



What's wrong with bunny-cats? (http://www.fantasyanime.com/tenchimuyo/tenchilove68.jpg)

[LaZodiac]

I've read the Usagi Drop manga - I've done my time.

May god have mercy on your poor soul.

In a likewise vein, do avoid My Mother's Two Hit Combo, because as I believe I've mentioned before the creator explicitly refers to it as "mom-con" so... yeah.


What's wrong with bunny-cats? (http://www.fantasyanime.com/tenchimuyo/tenchilove68.jpg)

Nothing inherently, the context should make it clear we're referring to this specific one. I also didn't know this character existed.

[GloatingSwine]

Bad Anime News: Arson attack at KyoAni studio kills 12.



An arson attack on an anime studio in Japan has left at least 12 people dead and dozens injured.

The perpetrator, who was also injured and has been taken into police custody, walked into the 1st Studio building of Kyoto Animation in Uji, Kyoto prefecture at about 10.30am. He poured what is suspected to be petrol in multiple areas of the building before igniting it.

There were more than 70 people were in the building, which is Kyoto Animation’s main studio, and 12 people died, according to the police.

About 30 fire engines and ambulances went to the three-storey building after an explosion. Victims were taken to various hospitals in Kyoto.

The suspect, identified only as a 41-year-old male, was reportedly taken to hospital before being arrested by police, who said he had admitted starting the fire. No motive for the arson attack has been reported, but Japan’s public broadcaster said he had shouted “drop dead” as he set the fires.

“A man threw liquid and set fire to it,” said a Kyoto prefectural police spokesman.

Emergency calls to the city fire department reported there had been an explosion on the ground floor, while later calls included people shouting: “Help us, the fire is climbing.”

Images shot from a helicopter for NHK showed smoke billowing from the top floor and fire crews still battling the blaze of the badly damaged building hours after it had started. Fire crews said there might be more people left in the building.

The fire department said the three floors of the building covered a total of 700 sq metres and that every storey had been damaged by the fire.

Akidearest
✔
@akidearest
I’m heartbroken seeing what happened to Kyoto Animation. I don’t know what that sick person must have had against that studio to set it on fire, but my condolences to all the hard working employees. I wish you all a safe recovery...

The studio is located in a residential area of Uji, a historic city near the ancient capital of Kyoto. The company’s headquarters are also in the city; it has an office in Tokyo and a subsidiary in Osaka.

Kyoto Animation was founded in 1981 by Yoko Hatta, an anime producer. Her husband, Hideaki, serves as the company’s president. KyoAni has produced popular anime TV series and feature films and is well-known among anime aficionados around the world for its dedication to high-quality production techniques. Its catalogue includes A Silent Voice: The Movie, K-On!, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and Lucky Star.

Source (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/18/dead-suspected-arson-attack-kyoto-animation-japan)

[Aotrs Commander]

Ye gods.

That's horrific.

[cobaltstarfire]

:smallfrown:

What an awful way to die, I hope the survivors are able to come back together and keep going once they've recovered. There aren't many places in the industry that would treat them as well as Kyoto Animation did.

[Pendulous]

Seems the death count is up to 33 now.

Sentai Filmworks has put up a GoFundMe for KyoAni, along with a message from their president https://twitter.com/SentaiFilmworks/status/1151726531896643584

[LaZodiac]

Seems the death count is up to 33 now.

Sentai Filmworks has put up a GoFundMe for KyoAni, along with a message from their president https://twitter.com/SentaiFilmworks/status/1151726531896643584

I've heard some bad stuff about Sentai Filmworks, so maybe not give money to people offering to give it to them for you. Instead, you can buy cells from Kyoani directly which ensures they get their money. I forget the link but it shouldn't be that hard to find?

[Pendulous]

I've heard some bad stuff about Sentai Filmworks,

Uh, care to elaborate? They're an official distribution and dubbing company in the U.S. They'd have no reason to screw people over especially with a company they directly work with.

[LaZodiac]

Uh, care to elaborate? They're an official distribution and dubbing company in the U.S. They'd have no reason to screw people over especially with a company they directly work with.

What I read is that they used stuff like this to dangle bad contracts over them. They also release bad product with poor quality translation and footage (apparently, haven't watched their productions) and are generally just kinda seedy.

Also Japan's business laws about accepting third party donations apparently don't even allow them TO do this.

Information here. (https://twitter.com/herkzzz/status/1151843688106143745)

And if you want to buy stuff from Kyoani directly to support, here: https://twitter.com/zetsubouzhainu/status/1151770699054428162

[ellenate]

What I read is that they used stuff like this to dangle bad contracts over them. They also release bad product with poor quality translation and footage (apparently, haven't watched their productions) and are generally just kinda seedy.


So you're just making wild claims, with little to no evidence to support any of it... ok


I've brought their stuff and personally never ran into any glaring problems.

[Pendulous]

So you're just making wild claims, with little to no evidence to support any of it... ok


I've brought their stuff and personally never ran into any glaring problems.

Seriously. I buy from them a lot because Funimation's prices are outrageous, and during their recent sale I got six products for about the price I'd buy for one from Funi. Their translators do a better job than Funi in terms of subtitles too, since they are really focused on giving cultural and translation tips when necessary (good example of this, watch Watamote).

Also, no, they didn't just plop a GoFundMe all willy-nilly https://twitter.com/SentaiFilmworks/status/1151878913284616192

Speaking of Sentai, I recently watched Tari Tari, and it turned into one of my favorite shows I've watched recently. It's a diverse group of people coming together for a club, which sounds fairly cliche, but they do it so well. A large portion of it deals with grief which always hits me hard. I have a good track record with music-related anime, and it continues with this and Kono Oto, which I cna't wait for the second half later this year.

[ellenate]

Seriously. I buy from them a lot because Funimation's prices are outrageous, and during their recent sale I got six products for about the price I'd buy for one from Funi. Their translators do a better job than Funi in terms of subtitles too, since they are really focused on giving cultural and translation tips when necessary (good example of this, watch Watamote).

Also, no, they didn't just plop a GoFundMe all willy-nilly https://twitter.com/SentaiFilmworks/status/1151878913284616192

Speaking of Sentai, I recently watched Tari Tari, and it turned into one of my favorite shows I've watched recently. It's a diverse group of people coming together for a club, which sounds fairly cliche, but they do it so well. A large portion of it deals with grief which always hits me hard. I have a good track record with music-related anime, and it continues with this and Kono Oto, which I cna't wait for the second half later this year.

whenever i had the cash their premium box sets would always be one of the things i'd splurge on... they look so freaking cool *o*





omg they are on sale now.... why am i so poor. :'(

[LaZodiac]

So you're just making wild claims, with little to no evidence to support any of it... ok


I've brought their stuff and personally never ran into any glaring problems.

I literally posted my information sources.

Look I don't know, I'm just saying to exercise caution. It's wonderful to try and help people out, don't get me wrong.

[ellenate]

I literally posted my information sources.

That source has nothing to do with what i was addressing (i.e. your claims about Sentai's products.)

[Pendulous]

I literally posted my information sources.

Look I don't know, I'm just saying to exercise caution. It's wonderful to try and help people out, don't get me wrong.

You only posted a thread warning about the GoFundMe, which has been a common thing since it came about. Not because Sentai are shady, but because there is no clear evidence that KyoAni will accept the money.

You made wild claims that Sentai as a whole are shady, and provided no reasoning behind that. Also, I'm not sure what "poor footage" means for a company that does not animate, they only distribute.

[LaZodiac]

You only posted a thread warning about the GoFundMe, which has been a common thing since it came about. Not because Sentai are shady, but because there is no clear evidence that KyoAni will accept the money.

You made wild claims that Sentai as a whole are shady, and provided no reasoning behind that. Also, I'm not sure what "poor footage" means for a company that does not animate, they only distribute.

Maybe I linked the wrong. Whatever. All I'm going off is what I read, which says they've got poor translations and bad quality blue rays.

At any rate, this is a horrible situation. Feel free to donate how you want, I just do think buying stuff from Kyoani directly will help better, instead of giving a third party money on their behalf.

[Rodin]

Unsurprisingly, the third episode of Fire Force has been delayed indefinitely. I'd bet a week or two at least, but who knows at this point. It's a shame because I was looking forward to it, but completely understandable and I fully support the decision.

I keep checking the story for updates to see if there are any more details, but nothing yet. I can't imagine what would motivate a person to do something so horrible.

[Silfir]

Don't think too hard about it. From time to time a person who's been in too much pain or distress over the course of their life just snaps.

There could be some positive outcomes from here on out - improved fire safety standards and mental health programs. Let's hope for that, and obviously root for KyoAni to recover and make great anime like they did before. Living well is the best revenge.

[Pendulous]

mental health programs.

This may be straying a bit off-topic, but I've heard this is a huge problem in Japan. They sort of go by the concept of "deal with it yourself", which can be very unhealthy.

I've asked before why certain shows seem to not be looking at an obvious solution. Chuunibyou and March Comes in Like a Lion seem to bring up that question for me. Where are the therapists? Oh...they may not have any.

[Lord Raziere]

This may be straying a bit off-topic, but I've heard this is a huge problem in Japan. They sort of go by the concept of "deal with it yourself", which can be very unhealthy.

I've asked before why certain shows seem to not be looking at an obvious solution. Chuunibyou and March Comes in Like a Lion seem to bring up that question for me. Where are the therapists? Oh...they may not have any.

that....would explain a lot of the problems I have with some characters and behaviors in anime.

but yeah, a fire killing 33 out of 70? that is horrible. one guy suddenly making half the people they work with in a building for years suddenly...gone. can't even imagine how that must feel to them. and how the deal with it yourself concept probably doesn't help with dealing with that if you need someone else to convey feelings to or something.

[Cozzer]

This may be straying a bit off-topic, but I've heard this is a huge problem in Japan. They sort of go by the concept of "deal with it yourself", which can be very unhealthy.

Don't want to get too much into real-world things, but this has been confirmed by a friend of mine who has lived and worked there for the last few years. And yeah, that does factor in a few anime things that seem strange to us.

[ben-zayb]

Don't want to get too much into real-world things, but this has been confirmed by a friend of mine who has lived and worked there for the last few years. And yeah, that does factor in a few anime things that seem strange to us.
I feel the prevalence of the "can't be helped" (Shikata ga nai / Shou ga nai) line in plenty of manga/anime dialogue is connected to that somehow.

*especially on matters that still can, indeed, be helped

[ellenate]

You know for Yuno (from Future Dairy) being labeled the official poster child of crazy... She's not really that crazy in the show, most of the time, the only voice of reason.

[gomipile]

I tried to watch Demon Girl Next Door, but the subtitles are sometimes illegible. The Hidive subtitles have only a very thin black outline, and the at least the first episode of Demon Girl has a lot of white and light colors near the bottom of the screen. Hence, the subtitles are often nearly invisible for me.

I wish there were an option to use black-boxed subtitles like Funimation uses. They obscure more of the animation, but I can actually read them. I totally missed a good chunk of the dialogue in Demon Girl despite staring intently at the subtitles.

[Pendulous]

I tried to watch Demon Girl Next Door, but the subtitles are sometimes illegible. The Hidive subtitles have only a very thin black outline, and the at least the first episode of Demon Girl has a lot of white and light colors near the bottom of the screen. Hence, the subtitles are often nearly invisible for me.

I wish there were an option to use black-boxed subtitles like Funimation uses. They obscure more of the animation, but I can actually read them. I totally missed a good chunk of the dialogue in Demon Girl despite staring intently at the subtitles.

Weird, I have the opposite problem. Funimation doesn't outline the text well enough, and there are a lot of moments I couldn't read them. Have not have an issue with Hidive's.

That said, Hidive's subtitlers really need to stop using imperial terms, and instead use the actual measurements that are being used in the show. Don't need to see "miles" in a show set in Japan.

[uncool]

So guys, I don't really know anime that well - well enough to know a decent number of genres and stereotypes of those genres, and to have watched much of the mainstream (read: aired on Cartoon Network at some time). I'm looking for the really good series that haven't "crossed over" to the mainstream. Things like PMMM (which I've seen all of) or Steins;Gate (which I'm watching) - I mostly know about them because they've been discussed a lot here. They don't have to be dramas - I'd put Konosuba on the same list, although it's probably not as top-notch.

tl;dr What are some not-quite-mainstream but really good series?

[Ibrinar]

I don't really know what aired in the US. But going only by cartoon network https://cartoonnetwork.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Anime most of my highly rated stuff isn't on that list. Hmm let me go through my highest rated series on myanimelist (though it is a very incomplete list)
Mushishi - beautiful episodic fantasy setting where the MC travels and deals with strange stuff caused by weird beings.
Last exile counts as steam punk I guess
Both FMA are super well known in anime circles but weren't on cartoon network
Haibane Ranmei is worth a look, FLCL is probably better when one is more used to anime, Seikai no Monshou well most rate it less high than me I enjoyed it though, Baccano! is fun, guardian of the sacred spirit is good and there aren't that many normal fantasy series, I liked Simoun, I really should finish Kureau phantom memories but that has nothing to do with this list, Ergo proxy is decent, Ouran Koukou Host Club is fun in a way, Ah spice and wolf is good…

Honestly without genre restrictions I don't really know what to list.

[Excession]

So guys, I don't really know anime that well - well enough to know a decent number of genres and stereotypes of those genres, and to have watched much of the mainstream (read: aired on Cartoon Network at some time). I'm looking for the really good series that haven't "crossed over" to the mainstream. Things like PMMM (which I've seen all of) or Steins;Gate (which I'm watching) - I mostly know about them because they've been discussed a lot here. They don't have to be dramas - I'd put Konosuba on the same list, although it's probably not as top-notch.

tl;dr What are some not-quite-mainstream but really good series?

I haven't watched that much, but here are some recommendations:


Konosuba is a top notch comedy IMO. It's really funny, in sub or dub.
Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid is great. Is fantasy sit-com a genre? The dub is really good too.
The Ancient Magus' Bride was not quite what I was expecting, but it is good. Celtic mythology, drama, some rather odd romance. Sort of a beauty and the beast thing going on. Quite slow, at least at the start, but always pretty.
Little Witch Academia is pretty mainstream, but it's amazing. A mix of drama and comedy that somehow works perfectly. I preferred the sub-titles, the dub seemed to have some poor choices in translation in comparison.
The Promised Neverland is incredible. Thriller, and real edge-of-your seat stuff for the whole season, combined with very good animation and composition.

[Silfir]

Look out for Shirobako. It's a fairly light-hearted and positive, but authentic show about an anime studio making anime.

One of the classics in my eyes is Seirei no Moribito. It's just really solid fantasy. It's not primarily an action show, though whenever fighting does happen it's immaculately animated.

Do you like baseball - as in, does watching anime about baseball sound like something you might do? Watch Major. It starts in Little League, and takes its protagonist, season-by-season, all the way to the MLB.

If you liked Konosuba, try Youjo Senki. It's a rock solid war drama with a fantasy bent that happens to star a little girl with magic powers who is really the reincarnation of a Lawful Evil office worker from Japan. She's just a hoot to watch.

Also if you liked Konosuba, see if you can find Slayers, the classic comedic fantasy series that many older anime fans grew up with. If it wasn't a major inspiration for Konosuba I'll eat my hat. The main cast of four in Slayers is just as funny as Konosuba's, though made up of much more competent characters, who in turn face much more competent evils. The main difference between the two shows is that Slayers occasionally changes its mask and becomes a serious show about fighting supernatural evils, much like your average D&D campaign is usually good mates having light-hearted fun up until they knuckle down to fight the Big Bad.

One of the easily overlooked shows of the last couple of years is Girls' Last Tour. Don't let the art style in which the main characters are drawn fool you - their adorableness exists to contrast the grimness of the setting - a planet completely covered in industry and seemingly devoid of nature. To keep you watching as you slowly learn about the ultimate fate of humanity.

For something completely different - I'm a big fan of Nodame Cantabile. It's a frequently light-hearted drama about classical music and the transition from sorrow-free student life to the reality of being a musical professional. The titular character Nodame thinks it's a love story (specifically, one in which she lands the man of her dreams), but don't let her fool you - it's only occasionally that.



If you want to look into an anime that's currently airing, I strongly recommend Vinland Saga, an ongoing manga adaptation.

[John Cribati]

As a big fan of Shojo, there's a lot of stuff that didn't properly make the jump to the States.

Kimi ni Todoke: A high school girl that everyone avoids decides one year to try to make friends, but between her horror-movie-monster like demeanor (specifically, the girl from The Ring) and her just. Not knowing how to interact with people, shenanigans occur.

Say I love You: Another high school romance. I remember being really impressed with it (enough to remember the name) but I watched it do long ago all I can really remember about it is how it focuses of communication and that I really liked how the boy would call after the girl when she ran away- her name was Mei but he somehow made it sound like a 2-syllable name.

Haganai/I Don't Have (M)any Friends: A comedy about a bunch of high school social outcasts who form a club that's supposed to teach them how to make friends. It takes them the entire season to figure out that they've made friends with each other.

Oremonogatari: Due to what I assume is some kind of stork mix up, a JoJo's character is stuck in a Shojo anime. He falls for a girl, but given that every girl he falls for eventually falls for his Bishie Sparkling best friend, he assumes this is happening again, and like a True Bro, tries to set up his best friend with the girl he loves, even though the girl is clearly interested in JoJo Boy. The Best friend get sick of this s*** in episode 3 and tricks them into confessing to each other. Best Friend continues attempting to beat the lesson of "talk to each other dammit" through both of their thick skulls. Everything is cute and I constantly find myself wanting to rub my face against the screen.

Blue Spring Ride: Middle School Sweethearts find each other again in second year of high school. Boy has changed a lot, and Girl struggles to reconcile the feelings she still has for him with the fact that he's a jerk now. Also there's a whole lot of discussion about the toxicity of high school clique culture.

Seto No Hanayome/ My Bride Is A Mermaid:The Best Gag Anime Ever. I'm not even going to explain anything, other than the fact that This Happens (https://youtu.be/HIoWLpzQPcg), and everything about it- every single thing- is internally consistent to the narrative. And also despite constantly resembling some kind of marijuana-induced fever dream, it still manages to develop and follow through on a literary theme that applies to all the maincharacters.e

[Excession]

Also if you liked Konosuba, see if you can find Slayers, the classic comedic fantasy series that many older anime fans grew up with. If it wasn't a major inspiration for Konosuba I'll eat my hat. The main cast of four in Slayers is just as funny as Konosuba's, though made up of much more competent characters, who in turn face much more competent evils. The main difference between the two shows is that Slayers occasionally changes its mask and becomes a serious show about fighting supernatural evils, much like your average D&D campaign is usually good mates having light-hearted fun up until they knuckle down to fight the Big Bad.

Just watched the first episode of that, really good. The 4th wall certainly didn't last long.

[LaZodiac]

Just watched the first episode of that, really good. The 4th wall certainly didn't last long.

It's important to remember that Slayers is based on novella's that are literally "I made a story version of our DND campaign" and with that in mind you can feel that energy in every aspect of it. I love it.

It's on the opposite scale of whatever scale Record of Lodoss War is.

[Aotrs Commander]

Watched Maodka episoes 7 through 9.

I had forgotten some of those bits. Ouch, that was a pianful sit.

The thing that gets most though, the Bunny-Cat's sheer, unbridled lack of the slightest of fracks. It it "oh, we don't understand emotions," but its impressive ability to manipulate them makes that a bald-faced lie.

I just...

"Anytime you want to die for the sake of the universe, just call me," it says, right after just saying "yes, we specifically target teenage girls to make them die in emotional distress to use them as batteries."

I cannot articulate.

I really cannot.

It is not EVEN as if, as I wrongly recalled, thier civilisation is even existing close TO the heat-death of the universe, but it's CURRENT. So they are murdering children, basically for NO WORTHWHILE REASON, especially given the phenominal amount of emotional energy they could just get by getting a little from countless numbers across the universe, instead of from a handful on one planet. It's such a STUPID PLAN, it defies even the most BASIC analysis.

I tell you now, if the Aotrs eve encounter something even close to this... Yeah, no, scratch that; if I find anything like it, I ain't even gonna involve the Aotrs, I'll just bring it to the attention of the REALLY big players and then them stomp all over the issues in a way more thorough than I could...

There remains just one more thing to say.

Say with with me folks:

[EXPLETIVE].

YOU.

BUNNY-CAT.

[LaZodiac]

"Anytime you want to die for the sake of the universe, just call me,"

This is the best line in the series.

Anyway, my thoughts on the Incubator's and their belief that emotion is a form of mental illness: I do think they are actually, mostly, telling the truth when they say that. I do believe they are a species bred and beat out almost all emotion out of their civilization. You can still know how to manipulate emotions even if you don't have them, it just causes some minor problems here and there. An example of which BEING Kyubey telling Madoka all of that. Because he doesn't understand, 100%, what effect it will have on her.

I also believe that his race really doesn't have emotion now because it means, at the end, when Madoka does the thing she does, Kyubey is immediately (if temporarily) driven insane by it. Because his reaction to her wish in every version of the series is to get suddenly VERY emotional. And that's just really satisfying to me. Madoka out rules-lawyers a race of rules-lawyers and it's so genuine shocking, and the implications of it all are so unbelievable, that for the briefest of moment, by his species' own definition of it, Kyubet goes insane.

But yeah. Bunny-cat's a ****.

Also as a brief aside, I think any errors of logic in the Incubator's plan are intentional on the point of Kyubey to make it easier to understand (and thus scarier) to Madoka. Gotta rile up that little girl depression juice.

[uncool]

On a side note, while we're on the subject of Madoka:
Does anyone have a guess why Homura is introduced with Conturbatio - Sayaka's theme/leitmotif - as the backing music? I'm a bit obsessed with the wonderful music, and on rewatch, that stood out.

[LaZodiac]

On a side note, while we're on the subject of Madoka:
Does anyone have a guess why Homura is introduced with Conturbatio - Sayaka's theme/leitmotif - as the backing music? I'm a bit obsessed with the wonderful music, and on rewatch, that stood out.

Dissonance. At that moment in time we don't know why that music is being played, just that it's for something sinister.

I'll admit, I am quite bad at remembering music, so I haven't actually noticed that.

[uncool]

The main reason I can see is that Homura's theme (Puella in somnio) is saved for her standout scene (in the hallway), and they needed another atmospheric, "something's wrong" song, as you said. Still feels a bit odd to use another girl's theme - it weakens the association with Sayaka later.

[Excession]

"Anytime you want to die for the sake of the universe, just call me," it says, right after just saying "yes, we specifically target teenage girls to make them die in emotional distress to use them as batteries."

I feel that we're supposed to conclude that any civilisation that needs to torture and kill young women in order to exist doesn't deserve to continue existing. And then take a hard look at the real world. The show then seems less about making Faustian pacts with demon bunny-cats, and more about exploitation, mental illness, and suicide.

[deuterio12]

I feel that we're supposed to conclude that any civilisation that needs to torture and kill young women in order to exist doesn't deserve to continue existing. And then take a hard look at the real world. The show then seems less about making Faustian pacts with demon bunny-cats, and more about exploitation, mental illness, and suicide.

Kyubey heavily implies that humanity only progressed so far because of magical girls. Sure Madoka and Homura act from the shadows, but past magical girls included the likes of

Cleopatara and Jean D'Arc, which were quite public and may've not lived long but still left huge marks in the world.

That's why at the end Madoka just wishes to mercy-kill all magical girls when they're about to turn into witches instead of removing the system. Because fully removing magical girls may've resulted all of humanity to be back to living in caves dressed in raw skins or worst.

Basically becoming a magical girl is "live fast, die young but you'll have left your mark in the world"

Or in the case of Mami, it was literally "become a magical girl or bleed to death". Or again with Jean D'Arc, she coud've just as easily become another peasant killed in a raid (she actually decides to become a magical girl after half her village gets slaughtered in one of said raids, including her little sister). If you're going out young anyway, may as well do it with magic powers.

[ellenate]

I feel that we're supposed to conclude that any civilisation that needs to torture and kill young women in order to exist doesn't deserve to continue existing. And then take a hard look at the real world. The show then seems less about making Faustian pacts with demon bunny-cats, and more about exploitation, mental illness, and suicide.


huh, so puella magi can be looked at as a meta commentary on japan's idol industry. i never thought if it that way but the symbolism lines up pretty well.

[Excession]

huh, so puella magi can be looked at as a meta commentary on japan's idol industry. i never thought if it that way but the symbolism lines up pretty well.

Maybe not even that direct. In the wake of the KyoAni fire I've heard that it's common in other studios for junior animators to be overworked, paid less than a living wage, and for them to burn out within a few years, only to be replaced by another freshly trained animator willing to work for "passion". Write what you know and all.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On a side note, while we're on the subject of Madoka:
Does anyone have a guess why Homura is introduced with Conturbatio - Sayaka's theme/leitmotif - as the backing music? I'm a bit obsessed with the wonderful music, and on rewatch, that stood out.
If you want to really go into a reading (which is not necessarily what was intended), you can dig into this a bit.

Sayaka has a pretty strong parallel with Homura, in that Sayaka is an idealist crusader who gets hit with the true darkness of the world. Homura starts out like that, but instead of being crushed in one blow, she gets crushed little by little with every new loop. Sayaka fell faster, but it's the same fall as Homura.

And, while Mami's death is something that Homura desperately tries to avoid, Sayaka's corruption is the big inevitability she's come to accept.

[JCarter426]

So guys, I don't really know anime that well - well enough to know a decent number of genres and stereotypes of those genres, and to have watched much of the mainstream (read: aired on Cartoon Network at some time). I'm looking for the really good series that haven't "crossed over" to the mainstream. Things like PMMM (which I've seen all of) or Steins;Gate (which I'm watching) - I mostly know about them because they've been discussed a lot here. They don't have to be dramas - I'd put Konosuba on the same list, although it's probably not as top-notch.

tl;dr What are some not-quite-mainstream but really good series?

Slayers is great, I'll second that. Shirobako too.

I also liked Seto no Hanayome / My Bride Is A Mermaid so I guess I'll second that too. Some similar supernatural girlfriend-type anime to that are Bokusatsu Tenshi Dokuro-chan / Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-chan, Haiyore! Nyaruko-san / Nyaruko: Crawling With Love!, and Kore wa Zombie Desu Ka? / Is This a Zombie?. They're all kind of trashy but fully aware and embracing of the trashiness, much like KonoSuba in that respect. Some other good comedies are D-Frag! and Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun / Monthly Girls' Nozaki-kun. Of all of them, I'd probably recommend D-Frag! the most, and it's doubly appropriate since it's about an analogue game club. Not so much roleplaying games, but still in the genre.

Some lesser-known dramas:

Denpa-teki na Kanojo / Electromagnetic Girlfriend: This a really short OVA about a girl who claims to be a guy's servant from a past life and how one of their classmates is murdered.
Kokoro Connect: A group of friends deal with various supernatural events that happen to them, such as body swapping and telepathy. A psychological take on how these abilities affect their relationships, plus a mystery as to why these events are happening to them (which is unfortunately not resolved by the anime adaptation, because the story goes on).
Yamada-kun and the Seven Witches: In a totally normal high school, there are seven girls with various supernatural powers such as body swapping and telepathy (but different from the last time, most assuredly) who don't know how or why they received them. Also, there's a guy named Yamada who's gotta find 'em all. The anime adaptation was kind of rushed since they wanted to wrap up the first story arc and give it a quasi-definitive ending. The manga continues after the anime, and I'd recommend that instead if you'd be up for it, but the anime also works as a self-contained story if you can keep up with the somewhat-rushedness.
Zetsuen no Tempest / Blast of Tempest: Kind of an atypical shōnen, about a witch stranded on an island in her underwear and two friends who get caught up in her war with a magical cult over how to stop the end of the world. Also, lots of Shakespearean references. It has a similar feel to Steins;Gate, I think, though it may not seem that way on the surface.

[Pendulous]

It's so hard to know when it come to anime what is and isn't more mainstream. There's the basic stuff like DBZ and other similar shows, and anything seen on national TV, Toonami and whatnot. But that's about it. So to determine what to suggest based off western popularity is hard. People who are into more genres and more stuff other than that will think a lot of shows are too well-known to be suggested. That said, I could compile a list of stuff through the genres I'm a fan of.

Comedy:

Three Leaves, Three Colors (https://myanimelist.net/anime/31564/Sansha_Sanyou) - Pure comedy with three different girls hanging out. Talk mostly about food and cats. This type of humor, to me, is what you would be into if you're into more sitcom style shows. (dub)

Gabriel Dropout (https://myanimelist.net/anime/33731/Gabriel_DropOut) - I like seeing characters break stereotype. And seeing Gabriel be just the slothiest angel ever is just a good time. (no dub)

Gonna be the Twintail (https://myanimelist.net/anime/24705/Ore_Twintail_ni_Narimasu) - Don't know why people don't like this. This show knows what it is. Basically a parody of sentai type shows. (dub)

Mitsuboshi Colors (https://myanimelist.net/anime/35078/Mitsuboshi_Colors) - Three nine year old girls just screwing around? How could that be funny? I don't know man, but it is. (dub)

Working!! (https://myanimelist.net/anime/6956/Working) - Could also include this in romance, but it's largely a workplace comedy. Something that anime doesn't have too much of. The gags never got old, and the characters are all likable, and sometimes relateable. (no dub)

Good Luck Girl (https://myanimelist.net/anime/13535/Binbougami_ga) - Coleen Clinkenbeard's performance makes this show for me, but this show is high energy comedy, with tons of fourth wall breaking and references. And they give heart to what should be an unlikable character, and can even give you some tears. (dub)

The Devil's A Part-Timer (https://myanimelist.net/anime/15809) - Waifus, Satan, and McDonald's. All you really need to know. (dub)

Yona of the Dawn (https://myanimelist.net/anime/25013) - This show really could fit into a lot of categories. A fantasy story about a cloistered princess who's forced to go out and see her kingdom after her father gets killed. One of those "where's the rest?" stories, but what is there is fantastic. (dub)

Romance:

Kamisama Kiss (https://myanimelist.net/anime/14713) - Nanami is adorable, and Tomoe is a rare male tsundere. Also lots of comedy. (dub)

Kimi ni Todoke (https://myanimelist.net/anime/6045) - I'm a sucker for a girl who's antisocial/shy, or otherwise has no friends, and earns them. Sawako has been teased all her life for looking like the ghost girl from The Ring, and she's gotten by by just being alone. A lot of dialogue in this show is her internal thoughts, so a heads up if that's something that is a turn off. Season 2 was disappointing, but season 1 is among my favorite shows. (no dub)

Mayo Chiki (https://myanimelist.net/anime/10110) - A show with a lot of heart despite coming across as a silly comedy. Disregard the harem tag, it's irrelevant. Another girl who avoids others and has no friends, so there's that. (dub)

Recovery of an MMO Junkie (https://myanimelist.net/anime/36038) - Adorable Christmas Cake. Fun MMO. Adult romantic comedy. It's short, but a good time. Also another relateable one. (dub)

Okami-san and Her Seven Companions (https://myanimelist.net/anime/7769) - A lot of your enjoyment of this show will hinge on how you feel about the narrator. A lot of people don't like her, but I had no issues. (dub)

Sakura Trick (https://myanimelist.net/anime/20047) - Cute girls in a comedy who kiss each other, kind of a lot. Surprisingly wholesome despite that. (no dub)

B Gata H Kei (https://myanimelist.net/anime/7817) - More comedy than romance, and a great one at that. Plot synopsis is misleading, don't let it fool you. Just a girl who doesn't know how relationships work, trying to get through one.

Fuuka (https://myanimelist.net/anime/33743) - The anime was changed to fit a story inside a single cour, and as a result a lot of people didn't like it. Reading up on the story in the manga, it's incredibly stupid, so I call it a win. Also some of the best music in anime. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqBEf3iNtPI) (dub)

Hi Score Girl (https://myanimelist.net/anime/21877) - May not be quite as good if you're not into classic video games. Haruo and Oono's relationship is solid, but a large part of the show hinges on arcades. Nice that they somehow were able to show actual versions of every game ever. (dub)

Snow White with the Red Hair (https://myanimelist.net/anime/30123) - Shirayuki might be the best female protagonist. Super chill, very smart. Show could almost be considered slice of life fantasy, but it pulls off a growing relationship very well. (dub)

Toradora (https://myanimelist.net/anime/4224) - It's typically seen as the best romantic comedy for a reason. taiga is much more deep than people realize, and is far and away the best tsundere I've seen. (dub)

ReLIFE (https://myanimelist.net/anime/30015) - Overtaking Toradora for my favorite romance, ReLIFE also adds a great blend of drama and comedy. Also includes my favorite anime girl, Chizuru. Another girl who doesn't have friends, go figure. (dub)

Say I Love You (https://myanimelist.net/anime/14289) - See a pattern with these girls? Difference here is, while Mei is a lone wolf, she also doesn't take crap from anyone, and isn't afraid to speak up.

Slice of Life (largely includes comedy):

Shounen Maid (https://myanimelist.net/anime/32175) - Another misleading plot synopsis. No weirdness here. Kid who lost his mother goes to live with a distant uncle. Very heartwarming, and can also make you cry. (dub)

Love Live franchise (https://myanimelist.net/anime/15051) - If you go into this thinking of a school club show, then people who just see "lol idols" may be able to get past it. There's a lot of characters and a lot of fun times for both groups. Oddly, while I like the music, my favorite song comes from neither band, but another that appears in Sunshine. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA9lBwM8uVE) (dub)

K-On! (https://myanimelist.net/anime/5680) - This show is special to me for personal reasons, so I might be biased. But there's a reason it popularized the genre. Also got me into anime music in general. (dub)

Hanayamata (https://myanimelist.net/anime/21681) - I think of this as a bit of K-On mixed with Love Live. The characters and their personalities of K-On, and the "keep moving forward" determination feeling of Love Live. (dub)

Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid (https://myanimelist.net/anime/33206) - A {Scrubbed} dragon, an oppai dragon, a SUPER oppai dragon, and a straight man human in between it all. (dub)

Hyouka (https://myanimelist.net/anime/12189) - Prime KyoAni animation, mixed with four great characters. The "mysteries" are all pretty household, but the characters still make them all intriguing. (dub)

Hitoribocchi (https://myanimelist.net/anime/37614) - A recent show, but it made an immediate impact. Taking a shy but determined character and making it realistic but also making it funny without feeling insulting in anyway. (no dub)

Is the Order a Rabbit? (https://myanimelist.net/anime/21273) - A slice of life show in a not-traditional Japanese town is a nice change of pace. It's genuinely funny, and very pretty. Two seasons, a movie, and a third season on the way. (no dub)

Flying Witch (https://myanimelist.net/anime/31376) - Super comfy show about a witch who moves to a small town to live with extended family. Magic in this show is very tied to nature, and it's all wholesome and lighthearted. (dub)

New Game! (https://myanimelist.net/anime/31953) - Great cast of characters, good comedy, a progressing story. Another great shy character in Hifumi. Also another workplace comedy. (dub)

Yuru Camp (https://myanimelist.net/anime/34798) - The comfiest comfy show that every comfed. Beautifully presented, with a pair of characters that steal the show. Mega popularity in japan has given it an upcoming movie and second season. (no dub)

Yama no Susume (https://myanimelist.net/anime/14355) - Typically seen as "Yuru Camp light" despite coming first. This one feels hard to get into because season 1 is twelve three-minute episodes. Season 2 is not legally available anywhere (except the OVA, which is a must-watch), but it's 24 half-episodes, and carries the bulk of the content. Season 3 is twelve half-episodes. (no dub)

Castle Town Dandelion (https://myanimelist.net/anime/28387/Joukamachi_no_Dandelion) - Nine royal siblings all with a superpowers. Another great shy lead in Akane. The show seems to struggle at times to tell the story of all the main cast in the limited time frame, but it works out. (dub)

Manaria Friends (https://myanimelist.net/anime/31537/Manaria_Friends) - This short spinoff has amazing presentation, and tells a story well with limited dialogue. Two princesses fight to spend time together outside of class in a magic school. (dub)

Isekai:

Problem Children Are Coming From Another World, Aren't They? (https://myanimelist.net/anime/15315/Mondaiji-tachi_ga_Isekai_kara_Kuru_Sou_Desu_yo) - If you've heard of No Game, No Life, this show has a very similar feel. Kids get sent to another world to compete in games, and there's an aspect of taking over territories. in this show's case, they have legit superpowers. Good comedy and good fun, but sadly more of a prologue for the rest of the story that is and will never be animated. (dub)

Grimgar (https://myanimelist.net/anime/31859/Hai_to_Gensou_no_Grimgar) - Even if you don't like isekai, or have never seen any but aren't interested, I would suggest Grimgar. The idea of being in another world is irrelevant, and it's a very realistic concept of survival in an unusual world without any skills. (dub)

Konosuba (https://myanimelist.net/anime/30831/Kono_Subarashii_Sekai_ni_Shukufuku_wo) - Certainly the most well-known isekai of recent times, with good reason. It's lewd, it's a group of pretty terrible people, but it is highly entertaining. (dub, season 1 only so far)

In Another World with My Smartphone (https://myanimelist.net/anime/35203/Isekai_wa_Smartphone_to_Tomo_ni) - Hmm, sounds familiar. Most don't like this show. I did. Yes, it is very wish fulfillment. But if you go into it as more a slice of life, it can be fun. Also nice to see how Touya uses magic to implement modern ideas into this fantasy world. (dub)

Drama:

A Place Further than the Universe (https://myanimelist.net/anime/35839/Sora_yori_mo_Tooi_Basho) - Not exactly listed as drama, but it doesn't really fit anywhere else. This show will most definitely make you laugh and cry, sometimes at the same time. beautiful story, beautiful art, beautiful music, beautiful everything. (no dub)

Erased (https://myanimelist.net/anime/31043/Boku_dake_ga_Inai_Machi) - Best mom in anime, that is all (note: I have not watched Wolf Children) (dub)

Kono Oto Tomare (https://myanimelist.net/anime/38080/Kono_Oto_Tomare) - Not sure why this show's English Title is "Sounds of Life" but whatever. Character development for days. Unfortunately split-cour, so gotta wait until Fall to see the rest. (dub)

Skip Beat (https://myanimelist.net/anime/4722) - Another show with a good mix of comedy and drama. Another show with amazing character development. Another show that ends at the worst possible time. (dub)

March Comes in Like a Lion (https://myanimelist.net/anime/31646) - Didn't love this show as much as I expected to. The shogi stuff is hard to follow since I don't read Japanese. While I feel very related to Rei in terms of depression, and can even see a lot of the symbolism involved, a lot of the episodes drag on with nothing going on. Also season 1 spends too much time on Rei and not enough on his sort-of-but-not-exaclty-inhereted family. Season 3 is a must. (dub)

AnoHana (https://myanimelist.net/anime/9989) - Only watched this show recently, and was worried about the hype from people I talk to. It lived up to it, in spades. Super emotional, and a great story. (dub)

Harem:

Monster Musume (https://myanimelist.net/anime/30307) - Yes, it is very much about the lewd and the boobs. But is also a good comedy. (dub)

High School DxD (https://myanimelist.net/anime/11617) - Yes, also about the boobs, in so many ways. Show can get repetitive with the "we can't win, oh no wait, we have this new skill". So it can largely be a waifu generator, but it also has a lot of fun times. (dub)

Haganai (https://myanimelist.net/anime/10719) - Just a really funny show. As long as you're ok with two girls torturing each other. (dub)

Sports:

Bamboo Blade (https://myanimelist.net/anime/2986/Bamboo_Blade) - Really just made this section for this one show. It's largely a character comedy, with some kendo throw in (...moreso sports than Little Busters though, don't get me wrong). Another shy yet nice and proficient main girl in Tamaki. A fun bubbly, yet also talented genki girl in Kirino. (dub)

[cobaltstarfire]

So guys, I don't really know anime that well - well enough to know a decent number of genres and stereotypes of those genres, and to have watched much of the mainstream (read: aired on Cartoon Network at some time). I'm looking for the really good series that haven't "crossed over" to the mainstream. Things like PMMM (which I've seen all of) or Steins;Gate (which I'm watching) - I mostly know about them because they've been discussed a lot here. They don't have to be dramas - I'd put Konosuba on the same list, although it's probably not as top-notch.

tl;dr What are some not-quite-mainstream but really good series?


Tsurune is pretty good, and pretty short as well. It's a sports/highschool club anime about Kyudo (Japanese archery with a long bow) where the main character suffers from target panic. (His release is too fast). If you do end up watching it all the way through, it has no stingers except for the last episode and its a pretty good little stinger (episode 13, not the OVA which is treated like a 14th episode on crunchyroll).

It's beautiful, fairly relaxing, has bits of humor sprinkled throughout, and a bit of drama and philosophy. It's also apparently a reasonably realistic depiction of Kyudo according to my instructor. Some people find it to be too slow though. The only sports/club anime I have watched are K-On, Sound!Euphonium, and Hikaru no Go, so I can't really say I know the typical tropes for this kind of anime, but some people did complain about certain personality and story tropes showing up. May not be much of a problem if you aren't terribly familiar with anime to begin with.

Either way it is the most memorable anime I've seen in a while that hasn't already been mentioned.


I'd also recommend the animated remakes of Space Battleship Yamato. The two seasons sit in a niche similar to Star Trek but with more of an overarching plot for the most part.

[Rynjin]

Watch Space Dandy. He's a dandy guy, in space.

[Battleship789]

I guess I'll cover some of the more actiony series, as Pendulous has most of the other stuff covered, alongside some of my own favorites.

Romance/Comedy
Gekkan Shojo Nozaki-Kun: A goofy romcom where a high school girl asks out her crush only for him to think she was asking for his autograph, as he is a Shojo manga artist/writer. Hilarity ensues. (dub)

Sports
Kuroko no Basket: Basketball anime with typical genre conventions, but is still excellent. Characters do have larger-than-life abilities, but mostly in a "push a normal ability to 11" theme. Ex: one character can shoot 3's really well...to the point that he doesn't miss. Overall, a fun ride with great animation, especially during the final arc. Honestly, I'm surprised that this still hasn't gotten a western dub. (no dub)

Haikyu!!: Volleyball anime that is fairly well grounded in reality. Characters are fun and the teams that oppose the MCs feel like actual people instead of villainous caricatures that must be beaten. (no dub)

Eyeshield 21: An older anime about American Football. Unlike the previous two series, it tells reality to take a hike. A goofy but fun show, though the animation was not great when it came out and has not aged well. (no dub)

Yowamushi Pedal: Fairly by the book sports anime about Cycling. Does a good job exploring the various characters and their motivations. (no dub)

Science Fiction
Psycho Pass: Near future society, you follow a bunch of detectives who solve violent crimes in a world where everyone's mental state is constantly monitored and given a numerical score, called your Crime Coefficient. 1st season is absolutely amazing, 2nd much less so. (Dub)

Knights of Sidonia: Typical mecha fair, but the setting is pretty interesting. Lots of CGI, and it isn't implemented very well, but you might be able to get over it. 2nd season was a bit of a downer from the first. (Dub)

Planetes: Now, I've never seen this show, but I've heard it is fantastic. Somewhat into the near future, mankind has explored more of the solar system. However, this has caused a ton of space debris to build up in Earth's atmosphere, so one job is to collect the debris in orbit and either sell them for salvage or let them burn up in the atmosphere. Fairly hard sci-fi. (no dub)

World Trigger: Aliens (called Neighbors) invaded Japan 5 years ago but were repelled by a mysterious organization called Border. Story revolves around squads of Border agents and their relationships with each other and the Neighbors. Excellent characters and story are mired by poor CGI and animation. (no dub)

Fantasy
Fate/Zero: When the powers align, a contest is held between mage families. 7 mages summon powerful servants from history/mythology to do battle for the ultimate prize: a wish from the Holy Grail. Of the various Fate series' entries, this is (in my opinion) by far the best iteration. The fanservice is kept to a minimum, the characters and story are excellent, and the animation is good. One can always consume more of the setting if desired, but there is a noticeable drop in overall quality for the other entries, imo. (dub) Does anything Fate count as mainstream nowadays?

Isekai
Overlord: An isekai where the MC is stuck inside a MMORPG (the author has explicitly mentioned that the game is based on a D&D campaign) as his end game Lich wizard character and holds court over his guild's base of operations. The story revolves around the MC and his relationship with his friend's creations, a group of powerful NPC characters that have become real with motivations and desires. A power fantasy to be sure, but there is some interesting exploration of the fallout for an epic level wizard in a world where the allegedly strongest fighter in the world is maybe 10th level, as well as the loss of the MC's humanity. (dub)

Log Horizon: Another isekai about an MMORPG, where the setting and mechanics actually feel like an MMORPG! Overall, I'm not a huge fan of the series as the pacing is dreadful and the story is meandering, but quite a few people enjoy it over similar fare, so I'll include it. (no dub)

[John Cribati]

I can't believe I forgot to mention Nozaki-kun. Top tier comedy.

[Cozzer]

I'll add two of my personal favorites:

Mob Psycho 100 (Action, Comedy): from the same author as One Punch Man, the story of a middle-school kid learning to deal with his emotions, growing up and the city-shattering supernatural powers he's been repressing for years. Also the story of his mentor, a good-hearted conman who apparently has it all figured out, and actually has exactly nothing figured out.

Honey and Clover (Slice of Life, Romance, Comedy, Drama): from the same author as March Comes In Like a Lion, the story of five Japanese art college students and one of their teachers. The romance part is... very Japanese, and could be better, I admit. However, as the story of a group of twentysomethings trying to find out who they are and what their place in the world is, it's great.

[Silfir]

I have seen Planetes, and I can confirm it's an excellent show. You don't often get to see hard science fiction like it. There are no FTL drives or aliens; it's a show about 21st century humanity gradually expanding out into the solar system. The kind of stuff that might actually happen in our lifetimes.

The main character is a young woman who just found her first job - as an office worker for the company running the space station orbiting the Earth. Unfortunately, she got a job with the division at the very bottom of the office hierarchy - space debris retrieval. Much like the IT department of your typical Earthbound company, they do an absolutely crucial job (junk within Earth orbit has the potential of bringing space travel entirely to a halt if it isn't diligently cleaned up), but they don't generate profits, so nobody cares about them. In the beginning the show focuses on the debris retrieval division (filled with misfits and malcontents) and their various antics and challenges, and branches out in the later half, as the characters get caught up in bigger picture political stuff that I shouldn't spoil ahead of time - let's just say things get a lot more serious.

This show is a hard recommend if you're into science fiction, and you prefer Star Trek to Star Wars, but wish it was more realistic. In addition to all its other qualities, it's quite humorous (when things are not dead serious), and it has a cute romantic subplot.

[Excession]

Yuru Camp (https://myanimelist.net/anime/34798) - The comfiest comfy show that every comfed. Beautifully presented, with a pair of characters that steal the show. Mega popularity in japan has given it an upcoming movie and second season. (no dub)

Just binged the whole thing, it's like some sort of comfy drug. Thanks for the recommendation.


Log Horizon: Another isekai about an MMORPG, where the setting and mechanics actually feel like an MMORPG! Overall, I'm not a huge fan of the series as the pacing is dreadful and the story is meandering, but quite a few people enjoy it over similar fare, so I'll include it. (no dub)

I have watched the first season of Log Horizon. It was nice to see a "trapped in a game" series that actually looked like a real game. Next I want something where the main characters actually act like real people at some point. It also felt like the writer was making it up as they went along, especially the first few episodes of season 2, which didn't help.

[ellenate]

It was nice to see a "trapped in a game" series that actually looked like a real game. Next I want something where the main characters actually act like real people at some point.


Lol. Watch Gantz then.



I have seen Planetes, and I can confirm it's an excellent show. You don't often get to see hard science fiction like it. There are no FTL drives or aliens; it's a show about 21st century humanity gradually expanding out into the solar system. The kind of stuff that might actually happen in our lifetimes.

The main character is a young woman who just found her first job - as an office worker for the company running the space station orbiting the Earth. Unfortunately, she got a job with the division at the very bottom of the office hierarchy - space debris retrieval. Much like the IT department of your typical Earthbound company, they do an absolutely crucial job (junk within Earth orbit has the potential of bringing space travel entirely to a halt if it isn't diligently cleaned up), but they don't generate profits, so nobody cares about them. In the beginning the show focuses on the debris retrieval division (filled with misfits and malcontents) and their various antics and challenges, and branches out in the later half, as the characters get caught up in bigger picture political stuff that I shouldn't spoil ahead of time - let's just say things get a lot more serious.

This show is a hard recommend if you're into science fiction, and you prefer Star Trek to Star Wars, but wish it was more realistic. In addition to all its other qualities, it's quite humorous (when things are not dead serious), and it has a cute romantic subplot.


The attention to detail in that show is amazing but you have to be really be invested into the characters.




Psycho Pass: Near future society, you follow a bunch of detectives who solve violent crimes in a world where everyone's mental state is constantly monitored and given a numerical score, called your Crime Coefficient. 1st season is absolutely amazing, 2nd much less so. (Dub)



I didn't hate it but i still don't know what all the fuss was about. It felt like a typical futuristic cop story.

i wish it had more cases before it nosedived into the climax

[Pendulous]

Log Horizon: Another isekai about an MMORPG, where the setting and mechanics actually feel like an MMORPG! Overall, I'm not a huge fan of the series as the pacing is dreadful and the story is meandering, but quite a few people enjoy it over similar fare, so I'll include it. (no dub)

I haven't seen it, but Log Horizon definitely has a dub.

I should add in the franchise of "Is it Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon". It's a fun fantasy story that sort of brings some D&D elements to its world, with deities leading guilds, and officially "leveling up". I think I liked the spinoff a bit more than the original, so I'm c urious if the second season will advance Lefiya's and the rest of the Loki guild's story along with Bel and Hestia.

[tyckspoon]

I haven't seen it, but Log Horizon definitely has a dub.

I should add in the franchise of "Is it Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon". It's a fun fantasy story that sort of brings some D&D elements to its world, with deities leading guilds, and officially "leveling up". I think I liked the spinoff a bit more than the original, so I'm c urious if the second season will advance Lefiya's and the rest of the Loki guild's story along with Bel and Hestia.

Also, while the protagonist does end up picking up a harem (it's in the 'unwitting dork has a lot of girls fall for him because' variety) it's nowhere near as sleazy as the title makes it sound. Mostly pretty cute.

[Rynjin]

Ooh, great "non-mainstream anime" for you: Kaiji. Series is ****ing excellent. You'll never be more riveted by one guy sitting in a chair and sweating bullets.

It's a gambling anime, or more accurately THE gambling anime, the standard by which all others are measured to and found wanting.

[LaZodiac]

Ooh, great "non-mainstream anime" for you: Kaiji. Series is ****ing excellent. You'll never be more riveted by one guy sitting in a chair and sweating bullets.

It's a gambling anime, or more accurately THE gambling anime, the standard by which all others are measured to and found wanting.

I'll grant that only because Liar Game doesn't have an anime.

[Pendulous]

Also, while the protagonist does end up picking up a harem (it's in the 'unwitting dork has a lot of girls fall for him because' variety) it's nowhere near as sleazy as the title makes it sound. Mostly pretty cute.

Eh, is it really a harem though? He likes Ais, but there's not really any direct indication that it's a romantic interest, more of a rival type thing. Hestia of course wants that sweet sweet Bel. And I think Syr does too? I wouldn't really call that a harem. Pretty sure Lefiya hates him, or at the very least has zero interest in him. It's about as much a harem as Mayo Chiki, which, as far as the anime got, isn't even at all.

[Excession]

Eh, is it really a harem though? He likes Ais, but there's not really any direct indication that it's a romantic interest, more of a rival type thing. Hestia of course wants that sweet sweet Bel. And I think Syr does too? I wouldn't really call that a harem. Pretty sure Lefiya hates him, or at the very least has zero interest in him. It's about as much a harem as Mayo Chiki, which, as far as the anime got, isn't even at all.

While Bell only has eyes for Ais, he does have a few people after him: Hestia, Lili, Syr, and Apollo for sure, and Eina, Ryuu, Welf, and Freya at least as possibilities. The series is trashy, but I kind of like it anyway. It's not pure fan-service and there's actually an interesting setting and story there as well.

[Ibrinar]

Watching Dr Stone currently and does anyone else find Yuzuha weird looking?

[LaZodiac]

Watching Dr Stone currently and does anyone else find Yuzuha weird looking?

A lot of the lady designs in Dr Stone are... bad. It comes with the territory of the artist being a former eroge artist. The last series he did was Sun-Ken Rock or however it's spelt, and it's um... absurd on that aspect.

[ellenate]

A lot of the lady designs in Dr Stone are... bad. It comes with the territory of the artist being a former eroge artist. The last series he did was Sun-Ken Rock or however it's spelt, and it's um... absurd on that aspect.



By "bad", do you mean overly sexual?

in regards to anime, i don't think that's a really big sin

[LaZodiac]

By "bad", do you mean overly sexual?

in regards to anime, i don't think that's a really big sin

I mean a lot of the lady designs are really awkward and gangly and in-human, and even the ones I like are like "Hm, this is kinda bad".

I don't mind sexual elements in design but compare a lot of the female characters to the men and you start to see some issues. I haven't seen the anime yet so I don't know how it comes off.

[John Cribati]

Honestly Following any anime or manga means constantly asking yourself if reading the story is really worth how often you see the mangaka being "horny on main" as the kids say.

[LaZodiac]

Honestly Following any anime or manga means constantly asking yourself if reading the story is really worth how often you see the mangaka being "horny on main" as the kids say.

True but you can have horny designs that are still well thought out.

[Pendulous]

DanMachi S2 episode 1

Man. I never really liked Hermes, but props to him for playing matchmaker. I don't know who Bell actually likes, since he seems to see Ais as more of a challenge, but props to Hermes for pushing him forward.

Aollo though, he can suck a fat one. Kid was clearly faking it, and he's the one who started everything.

[gomipile]

It looks like Netflix has licensed Angel Beats! again, including the English dub. I remember them having the license several years ago, and Netflix remembers the last episode I watched on their platform when it was licensed previously.

[Pendulous]

It looks like Netflix has licensed Angel Beats! again, including the English dub. I remember them having the license several years ago, and Netflix remembers the last episode I watched on their platform when it was licensed previously.

Yup, finally, along with AnoHana, after I already watched them elsewhere. AnoHana is a must, the emotion hype is real.

[ellenate]

Yup, finally, along with AnoHana, after I already watched them elsewhere. AnoHana is a must, the emotion hype is real.

The fact that he could've easily proven she was real, from the jump, distracted me for most of the show...

[Lethologica]

I don't really understand the emotional impact of either of those shows. Or rather, I don't connect with them myself. I experience them as high school melodrama. But I imagine it feels the way I feel about Haibane Renmei.

[Ibrinar]

Angel beats didn't have all that much emotional impact (beyond the base lvl of its topic) but had entertaining parts. Anohana I never finished so maybe it would have had on later.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Man, I've been a little middling on the Vinland Saga adaptation, largely because I have such a love of the manga, but episode 5 really brought things home.

I felt like Thors' death was a little underwhelming emotionally, but here was all of the slow-burn emotional fallout, and I loved it. The show keeps reminding me that it's very deliberately-paced with the intention of getting me to stop and take in everything, and it's starting to work its magic. I should probably find someone to show it to once the season finishes, just so I can take it in more than one episode at a time.

Ylva was the highlight, of course, just this amazing moment of being able to tell that she was pouring herself into physical labor to fight off the slow wave of crushing grief, and I loved that we cut away after it started flowing out. There's a slow-burn amount of restraint in this show, and it's very good. There's these little moments, like Thorfinn laughing in the middle of a drink out of the stream, with tears in his eyes as he stops. Subtle touches, not pushing things at all. Just reminding you of what's going on with these characters.

I am so for this.

[Aotrs Commander]

Watched the last three episodes of Madoka...

Homura is best, seriously.

Also, I deeply approve of Madoka's "screw the universe, I make new rules." But maybe she didn't go quite far enough...

Yeah, I NEED to watch the movie proper-like now. Annoyingly, Netflix doesn't have that, so I might even have to track that down on DVD or something.




And, obviously, [EXPLETIVE] YOU, Bunny-cat, you and all your kind.

[LaZodiac]

Watched the last three episodes of Madoka...

Homura is best, seriously.

Also, I deeply approve of Madoka's "screw the universe, I make new rules." But maybe she didn't go quite far enough...

Yeah, I NEED to watch the movie proper-like now. Annoyingly, Netflix doesn't have that, so I might even have to track that down on DVD or something.

And, obviously, [EXPLETIVE] YOU, Bunny-cat, you and all your kind.

Madoka's wish literally makes her an actual god of hope, the living embodiment of "things will be okay" and all the magical girls go to her house when they die for tea. There's very little else she could have done to make this better.

Do not watch the movie is tears down all of this and is stupid.

In manga news today: The creator of Assassination Classroom and Brain Eating Detective Nougami Neuro, two of my favorite mangas, released a one shot called F-Kendo. Short for "Fetish Kendo".

It is very much a series like he'd make. I'll kinda just leave that thought there for the time being.

[Aotrs Commander]

Madoka's wish literally makes her an actual god of hope, the living embodiment of "things will be okay" and all the magical girls go to her house when they die for tea. There's very little else she could have done to make this better.

Do not watch the movie is tears down all of this and is stupid.

No way, the movie is the BEST PART.

When I watched SFDebris's review?

When I got to the part - you know what I mean - I had to pause the video for literally several minutes because I was laughing, clapping and whooping SO HARD.

That? There? A moment in a video review, which never quite holds as much in isolation as in full context?

That was still enough to make Homura the Best.

I don't even remember how it ended after that, I was too busy absolutely killing myself.

Homura bending reality over and shivving it in the internal organs because she wasn't having any of it's crap won my instant approval more than anything else - or pretty much anything else ever COULD.

(Heck the main reason Jubilee and Catherine Foundling are still at and lurking below the Best Character Ever pedastal is that I technically haven't seen it all proper-like yet.)

Hell, if someone did for me what Homura did for Madoka, I might even seriously consider giving them some interest (some context depending), that's how impressed and delighted I was.

[LaZodiac]

No way, the movie is the BEST PART.

When I watched SFDebris's review?

When I got to the part - you know what I mean - I had to pause the video for literally several minutes because I was laughing, clapping and whooping SO HARD.

That? There? A moment in a video review, which never quite holds as much in isolation as in full context?

That was still enough to make Homura the Best.

I don't even remember how it ended after that, I was too busy absolutely killing myself.

Homura bending reality over and shivving it in the internal organs because she wasn't having any of it's crap won my instant approval more than anything else - or pretty much anything else ever COULD.

(Heck the main reason Jubilee and Catherine Foundling are still at and lurking below the Best Character Ever pedastal is that I technically haven't seen it all proper-like yet.)

Hell, if someone did for me what Homura did for Madoka, I might even seriously consider giving them some interest (some context depending), that's how impressed and delighted I was.

I didn't actually know SF Debris did Rebellion. I kinda want to give that a look, but am also like "Rebellion sounds like the worst **** imaginable I don't even wanna touch it".

[ellenate]

No way, the movie is the BEST PART.

yeah the movie just reinforces everything the anime was about... (I don't see how anyone who liked the show couldn't also like the movie.)

[Aotrs Commander]

I didn't actually know SF Debris did Rebellion. I kinda want to give that a look, but am also like "Rebellion sounds like the worst **** imaginable I don't even wanna touch it".

Yeah, it's in the films section of the anime, not with the reviews of the series, so it'd be easy to miss.

I mean, it might be worth a watch of the review - I mean, I wouldn't have touched the series from reputation if I hadn't watched SFDebris so...?

[LaZodiac]

yeah the movie just reinforces everything the anime was about... (I don't see how anyone who liked the show couldn't also like the movie.)

The incubator's trying to find a way to return to the Witch timeline makes no sense, and is completely counter to the fact that Madoka is literally the godly embodiment of hope. Homura eventually falling into despair is an inherently stupid premise, and he becoming some sort of evil sexy queen type is stupid as hell. On a personal level, Homura's witch not being Walpurgisnacht is also just really dumb of them to have done. Charlotte getting a human form is interesting, but her character is very one note.

Also, just the general idea of having Madoka fight, in a fight, for real seems counter to the series entire thesis. Rebellion feels like a dumb cash grab to tie into the ****ty phone game at best.

[Lethologica]

The incubator's trying to find a way to return to the Witch timeline makes no sense, and is completely counter to the fact that Madoka is literally the godly embodiment of hope. Homura eventually falling into despair is an inherently stupid premise, and he becoming some sort of evil sexy queen type is stupid as hell. On a personal level, Homura's witch not being Walpurgisnacht is also just really dumb of them to have done. Charlotte getting a human form is interesting, but her character is very one note.

Also, just the general idea of having Madoka fight, in a fight, for real seems counter to the series entire thesis. Rebellion feels like a dumb cash grab to tie into the ****ty phone game at best.
In order:

The incubators want to restore the old system because they believe it produces more energy. They don't give a flying f*** about hope, so their actions don't run counter to Madoka being the embodiment of hope.

There's nothing inherently stupid about Homura falling into despair - she's suffered more than anyone else in the story, after all.

Walpurgisnacht never was or needed to be Homura.

Madoka fights in multiple loops in Homura's episode of the TV series, so Madoka fighting is not counter to the series' thesis (or the series already contradicts its own thesis).

And whatever one's opinion of Rebellion's story, it certainly isn't a s***ty cash grab. Cash grabs are low-effort, low-risk endeavors that try to avoid alienating their customers with anything new. Rebellion is the opposite of that.

[LaZodiac]

In order:

The incubators want to restore the old system because they believe it produces more energy. They don't give a flying f*** about hope, so their actions don't run counter to Madoka being the embodiment of hope.

There's nothing inherently stupid about Homura falling into despair - she's suffered more than anyone else in the story, after all.

Walpurgisnacht never was or needed to be Homura.

Madoka fights in multiple loops in Homura's episode of the TV series, so Madoka fighting is not counter to the series' thesis (or the series already contradicts its own thesis).

And whatever one's opinion of Rebellion's story, it certainly isn't a s***ty cash grab. Cash grabs are low-effort, low-risk endeavors that try to avoid alienating their customers with anything new. Rebellion is the opposite of that.

I'm saying that Madoka being a magical god of hope would counter any attempts to **** up the time stream. I'm not saying they care about hope, I'm saying that the instant they try to make things bad for magical girls Madoka would politely shoo them away.

Homura should not fall to despair because she won. She succeeded where every other magica girl failed and she knows that when she dies, she'll be with Madoka again. Also, importantly, this is ignoring the fact that the other half of this complaint was that they dress her up like some erotic lolita bull**** character and I hate it.

It didn't need to be, and I'm fine with Walpurgisnacht not being her, but there's so much weight behind the theory that I think 100% deconfirming it takes away from the coolness of it.

Madoka fighting is bad. Madoka being shown fighting isn't inherently bad, because the idea is to show that every time she fights something terrible happens because she should not fight. Madoka's entire realization is that she needs to come up with an actual wish that will solve things instead of just becoming another cog in the Incubator's machine. Having that get retreaded just feels wrong after the conclusion.

You can put quality work into a ****ty cash crab. Given the designs and what it led to (Madoka Magica phone game gachapon with a bunch of stupid, badly designed magical girls to attract lolita obsessed nerd-idiots) I can say Rebellion is absolutely a cash grab. It was not intended and never intended, Madoka Magica is a self contained story that has no need for a sequel. It is a needless movie, and even if it does "new and interesting things" it's still an unneeded money-grab to tie in to the phone game. Now, if you want to say my term use is wrong that's fine, I'll relent I don't really care because my point still matters. Call it a cash grab, call it needless and unintended, none of this changes the fact that a lot of the things in that film is aimed towards people who wouldn't like Madoka Magica.

[Drascin]

yeah the movie just reinforces everything the anime was about... (I don't see how anyone who liked the show couldn't also like the movie.)

Pretty much everyone I know whose ability to perform media analysis I actually trust came out of Rebellion thinking it was some combination of stupid, bad, and strictly opposite theme-wise to the series.

And well. Honestly, Urobuchi ends up ****ing up everything he does eventually, so I am thoroughly unsurprised he'd manage to screw this one too. I'm genuinely surprised something as good as Madoka came out of the man as is!

[LaZodiac]

Pretty much everyone I know whose ability to perform media analysis I actually trust came out of Rebellion thinking it was some combination of stupid, bad, and strictly opposite theme-wise to the series.

And well. Honestly, Urobuchi ends up ****ing up everything he does eventually, so I am thoroughly unsurprised he'd manage to screw this one too.

I don't actually recall if Urobuchi made Rebellion or not. I know regardless that the movie WAS mandated and not an actual thing anyone had planned, so maybe it's not his fault for once.

If I recall, Urobochi's author notes in the manga version was him basically saying he wanted to make a happy story for once, just in his style. Thus why Madoka is so self contained and shouldn't have anything stem off from it to water down the importance of the show's themes. Cough Magia Record, Rebellion, and other garbo trash cough.

[Prime32]

And well. Honestly, Urobuchi ends up ****ing up everything he does eventually, so I am thoroughly unsurprised he'd manage to screw this one too. I'm genuinely surprised something as good as Madoka came out of the man as is!I'm not sure if it was Urobuchi or Shinbo, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a quote along the lines of "I had a plan but they made me change it, and now it's not the franchise I made any more".

There also seem to be a bunch of "Urobuchi projects" that amount to "we hired Urobuchi to write episode 1 for marketing purposes".

[ellenate]

Pretty much everyone I know whose ability to perform media analysis I actually trust came out of Rebellion thinking it was some combination of stupid, bad, and strictly opposite theme-wise to the series.

And well. Honestly, Urobuchi ends up ****ing up everything he does eventually, so I am thoroughly unsurprised he'd manage to screw this one too. I'm genuinely surprised something as good as Madoka came out of the man as is!

The tv series was pretty clear in its intent to flip every trope it could think of.

I honestly don't see what people expected from a continuation... sailor moon?

[Aotrs Commander]

Also, it was... Blatently obvious that It Was Going Pear-Shaped at the end of the series because of the post-credits sequence where we basically...

... see Homura lose it.

And rightly so, honestly.



Hope is not an end goal, its a motivating force, so Madoka just being hope forever - and thus being forever in stasis, trapped away from everything but the dying magical girls was, frankly, a bit of an [excrement] end on that I would have thought very little of, had I not known about what came next. (Especially since Bunny--cat essentially got away without the soul-cleaving agony it deserves to experience.)

(I mean it's not NGE or ME3 bad, bad, but it would have been "eyeglow roll and shake head" bad.)

Reality is a steaming pile of rancid monkey droppings that should have the sand kicked in its face at every single opportunity until it makes itself work properly, so I have nothing but respect for someone prepared and able to stick their boot up it's arse at high enough velocity to make it vomit out chunks of its own lower intestines.

[LaZodiac]

Homura losing faith is against Madoka Magica's entire thesis. The entire point that Homura keeping hope alive WAS worth it, that being hopeful is not a mistake. The end of the series is literally Homura thinking about how she knows that a literal god is watching over her, no matter what she is. I wouldn't take thte events that happened during this speech to be a sign of Homura "breaking" but of her preparing to fight.

I'm not a very religious person myself, and I get how people would consider this sort of message bad, but Homura succeeded in making the person who was her entire world become an immortal diety of literal hope, the same hope Madoka gave her just by being kind and gentle. How could we take that away from her? How could someone decide "okay then she loses hope and dresses in a dumb slutty outfit because she's obsessed with Madoka". It's gross and bad.

How is Madoka's ending bad? How is Madoka, one of the nicest people ever, being able to help people feel safe and protected a bad end for her? Her end goal is to help all magical girls, and be there for them when they most need it. She IS Hope, made manifest. The series is not saying hope is an end goal, they're saying that hope is the means through which we can survive anything.

[Lord Raziere]

*reads people discussing Rebellion*

*reads spoilers about PMMM Rebellion*

Hm. I can see how Rebellion would be contentious, going by the tvtropes page alone.

at least I'm spoiled on it so I might not be as emotionally harmed if I ever see it. It is made by the Urobutcher, got to be careful about viewing stuff made by authors who slaughter characters like he does, sometimes spoilers are vital emotional dampeners!

so basically, if what I'm hearing is correct, Homura finds out that she is in a fake self-world, Kyubeys trying to re-enslave Madoka so she decides to save her and the universe from the Kyubeys, and Homura does everything in her power to save all her friends, kick the Kyubeys to the curb and succeeds by becoming a goddess?

....... how does this makes her a goddess of evil again? :smallconfused:

[ellenate]

*reads people discussing Rebellion*

*reads spoilers about PMMM Rebellion*

Hm. I can see how Rebellion would be contentious, going by the tvtropes page alone.

at least I'm spoiled on it so I might not be as emotionally harmed if I ever see it. It is made by the Urobutcher, got to be careful about viewing stuff made by authors who slaughter characters like he does, sometimes spoilers are vital emotional dampeners!

so basically, if what I'm hearing is correct, Homura finds out that she is in a fake self-world, Kyubeys trying to re-enslave Madoka so she decides to save her and the universe from the Kyubeys, and Homura does everything in her power to save all her friends, kick the Kyubeys to the curb and succeeds by becoming a goddess?

....... how does this makes her a goddess of evil again? :smallconfused:


I saw it as her selfishness leading her to take on the role, more so than her actually being this evil person.

[Excession]

Watched Land of the Lustrous for the animation, was not expecting the feels. Now I need a second season.

Started watching an older series, Beyond the Boundary (https://myanimelist.net/anime/18153/Kyoukai_no_Kanata) after seeing some good animation in a highlight reel. The start of the first episode might be the best "meet cute" ever. Beyond that I'm seeing interesting world building, well animated fights, funny dialog even in sub-titles, cuteness, and a general need to watch the whole thing.

[Lethologica]

I'm saying that Madoka being a magical god of hope would counter any attempts to **** up the time stream. I'm not saying they care about hope, I'm saying that the instant they try to make things bad for magical girls Madoka would politely shoo them away.

Homura should not fall to despair because she won. She succeeded where every other magica girl failed and she knows that when she dies, she'll be with Madoka again. Also, importantly, this is ignoring the fact that the other half of this complaint was that they dress her up like some erotic lolita bull**** character and I hate it.

It didn't need to be, and I'm fine with Walpurgisnacht not being her, but there's so much weight behind the theory that I think 100% deconfirming it takes away from the coolness of it.

Madoka fighting is bad. Madoka being shown fighting isn't inherently bad, because the idea is to show that every time she fights something terrible happens because she should not fight. Madoka's entire realization is that she needs to come up with an actual wish that will solve things instead of just becoming another cog in the Incubator's machine. Having that get retreaded just feels wrong after the conclusion.

You can put quality work into a ****ty cash crab. Given the designs and what it led to (Madoka Magica phone game gachapon with a bunch of stupid, badly designed magical girls to attract lolita obsessed nerd-idiots) I can say Rebellion is absolutely a cash grab. It was not intended and never intended, Madoka Magica is a self contained story that has no need for a sequel. It is a needless movie, and even if it does "new and interesting things" it's still an unneeded money-grab to tie in to the phone game. Now, if you want to say my term use is wrong that's fine, I'll relent I don't really care because my point still matters. Call it a cash grab, call it needless and unintended, none of this changes the fact that a lot of the things in that film is aimed towards people who wouldn't like Madoka Magica.
The incubators don't initially know how the Law of Cycles works, so there's no reason they wouldn't try things. And they brought an immovable object with them to address the unstoppable force of the Law of Cycles...or so they think; it's not so immovable, considering Madoka does show up and defeat their attempt.

Homura ends the series putting her life on the line to defend a world she thinks isn't worth protecting solely for the sake of her memory of Madoka. Madoka won, but it was never a win for Homura, who went through all that to protect Madoka only to lose her after all. And then there's the post-credits scene...Homura endures with the memory of Madoka, and what happens in Rebellion? Her memories are messed with. Homura breaks in Rebellion along fault-lines that were already present in the series. It's not a contradiction of the series at all.

Yes, this is ignoring your complaints about Devil Homura's appearance, because I don't care about that.

"Madoka should not fight" is not a message of the series anywhere. Indeed, I would say it's at least as much a contradiction of the series as anything in Rebellion. Not becoming a cog in the incubators' machine, sure, but she doesn't act or consider acting as one in Rebellion, so that point is not retreaded.

The series was released in 2011. The movies were released in 2012 and 2013. Magia Record was released in...2017. So much for the narrative about what led to what. The gacha game is absolutely a s***ty cash grab, but there's no indication that Rebellion was filmed with the gacha game in mind. If quality work is put in, and the point was not just to grab cash, it is not a s***ty cash grab. (The 'just' is important - artists deserve to get paid.) You can say it doesn't matter that you used the wrong words because your point still matters, but other people can only understand your point through the words you use, so when you use the wrong words, no one can tell whether your actual point matters.

As for said point...is Rebellion needless and unintended? Debatable, but even if it is, you could say the same of Terminator 2, or any number of other great sequels. It doesn't say anything useful about whether a film is good or ought to exist. So no, I don't think it matters.

[Drascin]

The tv series was pretty clear in its intent to flip every trope it could think of.

I honestly don't see what people expected from a continuation... sailor moon?

It... really wasn't? Which thank god, because pretty much every work that goes "Imma subvert all the tropes! Setting up audience expectations is for wimps!" as a basic mission statement ends up ****ing terrible?

[Pendulous]

Watched Land of the Lustrous for the animation, was not expecting the feels. Now I need a second season.

Started watching an older series, Beyond the Boundary (https://myanimelist.net/anime/18153/Kyoukai_no_Kanata) after seeing some good animation in a highlight reel. The start of the first episode might be the best "meet cute" ever. Beyond that I'm seeing interesting world building, well animated fights, funny dialog even in sub-titles, cuteness, and a general need to watch the whole thing.

I don't remember much about it other than the story was a confusing mess. Including the movie.

[Ibrinar]

It... really wasn't? Which thank god, because pretty much every work that goes "Imma subvert all the tropes! Setting up audience expectations is for wimps!" as a basic mission statement ends up ****ing terrible?
Yeah it is a dark twist on magical girl anime with the cute animal companion being evil and stuff but once you adjust to what it actually is it was playing it fairly straight, it didn't really go down a trope list to flip them.

[Aotrs Commander]

Homura losing faith is against Madoka Magica's entire thesis. The entire point that Homura keeping hope alive WAS worth it, that being hopeful is not a mistake. The end of the series is literally Homura thinking about how she knows that a literal god is watching over her, no matter what she is. I wouldn't take thte events that happened during this speech to be a sign of Homura "breaking" but of her preparing to fight.

I'm not a very religious person myself, and I get how people would consider this sort of message bad, but Homura succeeded in making the person who was her entire world become an immortal diety of literal hope, the same hope Madoka gave her just by being kind and gentle. How could we take that away from her? How could someone decide "okay then she loses hope and dresses in a dumb slutty outfit because she's obsessed with Madoka". It's gross and bad.

How is Madoka's ending bad? How is Madoka, one of the nicest people ever, being able to help people feel safe and protected a bad end for her? Her end goal is to help all magical girls, and be there for them when they most need it. She IS Hope, made manifest. The series is not saying hope is an end goal, they're saying that hope is the means through which we can survive anything.


[Bleakbane rant warning...]

How do you explain the post-credit-sequence of episode 12 of Homura walking through the desert very clearing spewing labyrinth magic?



Me, I think gross and bad are having something effectively removed from reality, beyond life and death where you can never reach it. It would be better for Homura if Madoka had died, since at least she would have been reachable in death.

That? Was absolutely terrible, no matter that Madoka thought it was herself. Nonexistance is in every way worse than death and I find it even more offensive, even if it was not quite as complete in this case. (I, frankly, am not at all fond of the whole heroic sacrfifice thing in the FIRST PLACE in any medium ever. If a situation requires one, someone fracked up.)

To cap it off, Madoka's action, while noble, are just a patch, a migitation - an amelioration - for a problem Kubey and his kind created. It's not a solution, nor is it acceptable losses for Madoka to be removed from everything for that patch. No, no, sod the themes, frack the philosophy, frag everything else, I don't care, it's not an acceptable loss. Especially since it requires retrocasually erasing her. That is, frankly NOT OKAY.

Madoka isn't even completely saving the girls; they are still dying at the same point they did before - she's just stopping their deaths making them into horrible things that purpetuate a worse cycle. Maybe the causes have changed slightly, but it's still happening. The cycle that remains? Is still getting tens of thousands if not more young girls killed across time (past, present and future) because some little vermin think that it gives them energy for the most ridiculous reason.

The wraiths still exists BECAUSE OF Kubey and its ilk. Madoka merely patched it to come from a different place; odds are, they exist only as a prop for causality (you can debate whether this was better, as it maintained some level of casuality or worse, since it still required magical girls to exist at ALL). If Kubey hadn't stuck its nose in, it seems extremely likely wraiths wouldn't have shown up anymore than witches would. Heck, we only have Homura's suggestion that the relationship with Kubey in the new world is less "rocky" than before to indicate they are not still pulling the same lies to get the girls to become liches.

I mean, if there was absolutely NO way to avoid negative-emotion-based constructs - and I frankly doubt that - sod the genre conventions, it would be better to open up the fighting to ANY human, not just teenage girls. (Allow me to draw the Slayer paralellel here...) In fact, NOT doing so is now entirely ridiculous, since the entire point of confining it to teenage girls was to force the maximum amount of emotional distress, which is now no longer the case.



Here, I think, is where I differ at the fundemenal level from most of you. I look at reality and don't go "well, that's life, we must make the best of it." I look at it and go "that's just not GOOD ENOUGH, it needs to be FIXED." In the same way I fundementally believe there are never no answers, there are only answers I don't know yet; and there is nothing that cannot be killed, there are only things that cannot be killed yet. Reality is not a problem that I can't fix - it's a problem I can't fix yet (but will, if it takes me a trillion years to manage to do so.)

So I'm afraid that I just don't accept that Madoka's actions at the end were a final enough solution for the price paid by her, her friends and family (and especially Homura). Doubly-especially when the power to actually FIX something much better lies within reach.

[LaZodiac]

Watched Land of the Lustrous for the animation, was not expecting the feels. Now I need a second season.

Started watching an older series, Beyond the Boundary (https://myanimelist.net/anime/18153/Kyoukai_no_Kanata) after seeing some good animation in a highlight reel. The start of the first episode might be the best "meet cute" ever. Beyond that I'm seeing interesting world building, well animated fights, funny dialog even in sub-titles, cuteness, and a general need to watch the whole thing.

Land of the Lustrous is so good!


The incubators don't initially know how the Law of Cycles works, so there's no reason they wouldn't try things. And they brought an immovable object with them to address the unstoppable force of the Law of Cycles...or so they think; it's not so immovable, considering Madoka does show up and defeat their attempt.

Homura ends the series putting her life on the line to defend a world she thinks isn't worth protecting solely for the sake of her memory of Madoka. Madoka won, but it was never a win for Homura, who went through all that to protect Madoka only to lose her after all. And then there's the post-credits scene...Homura endures with the memory of Madoka, and what happens in Rebellion? Her memories are messed with. Homura breaks in Rebellion along fault-lines that were already present in the series. It's not a contradiction of the series at all.

Yes, this is ignoring your complaints about Devil Homura's appearance, because I don't care about that.

"Madoka should not fight" is not a message of the series anywhere. Indeed, I would say it's at least as much a contradiction of the series as anything in Rebellion. Not becoming a cog in the incubators' machine, sure, but she doesn't act or consider acting as one in Rebellion, so that point is not retreaded.

The series was released in 2011. The movies were released in 2012 and 2013. Magia Record was released in...2017. So much for the narrative about what led to what. The gacha game is absolutely a s***ty cash grab, but there's no indication that Rebellion was filmed with the gacha game in mind. If quality work is put in, and the point was not just to grab cash, it is not a s***ty cash grab. (The 'just' is important - artists deserve to get paid.) You can say it doesn't matter that you used the wrong words because your point still matters, but other people can only understand your point through the words you use, so when you use the wrong words, no one can tell whether your actual point matters.

As for said point...is Rebellion needless and unintended? Debatable, but even if it is, you could say the same of Terminator 2, or any number of other great sequels. It doesn't say anything useful about whether a film is good or ought to exist. So no, I don't think it matters.

The incubators also make it explicitly clear in the ending of the series that they don't actually think the witch system is possible. It's an interesting if true thing, but otherwise not actually possible. They'd LIKE to do it, but according to their understanding of things it's not actually possible. They're logical beings, if they know that the thing is impossible they will not try.

This is a complete misunderstanding of Homura's ending and the creed she says at the end. Homura will always have Madoka with her because Madoka is now the living, divine embodiment of hope made manifest and thus will never be gone. Madoka is eternal and while there is no physicality to it, Homura knows that she's there. People can still be said, she can still have bad days where she wises she could hold Madoka, but the fact remains that Homura literally rewound the entire universe around Madoka with how much she loved her and wanted to protect her, so having Homura ever break because "actually this was bad I miss her" is nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense.

You should probably care about them putting a small child in a heavily sexualized outfit because that's the sort of audience they're trying to bring in, which Madoka Magica the series does it's best to avoid doing at every opportunity. If that's not a clear indication that something is fundamentally wrong with Rebellion's intent, I don't know what is.

Maybe I phrased this point poorly. While the series is Madoka Magica, the main character is really Homura after a certain point. Her goal is to stop Madoka from fighting, because she knows that if she does the incubator's win. So having the solution to a problem be "actually, Madoka has to fight Homura was wrong" is completely opposed to the series. Now yes, one could argue that she "fights" the witches that she prevents from existing, but given the metaphysics of her wish that's not really fighting.

Fair. I didn't know what the gacha game was released. Regardless the movie still feels like an unneccisary cash grab. It's usually years before they do compilation movies for a shower, so the first two Madoka films are suspect in that regard as well, and Rebellion is just pointless and bad. And it is something worth saying. While Terminator 2 could also be described as a "pointless sequel" they earned it by actually making it good and interesting. They played with the premise in a cool, exciting way, and the fact that in that original Terminator movie Skynet isn't actually defeated means that there was always room FOR a sequel. There is no room for a sequel in Madoka Magica, it's too tight a story and anything that comes afterward to try and add to it will just feel wrong.


[Bleakbane rant warning...]

How do you explain the post-credit-sequence of episode 12 of Homura walking through the desert very clearing spewing labyrinth magic?

Me, I think gross and bad are having something effectively removed from reality, beyond life and death where you can never reach it. It would be better for Homura if Madoka had died, since at least she would have been reachable in death.

That? Was absolutely terrible, no matter that Madoka thought it was herself. Nonexistance is in every way worse than death and I find it even more offensive, even if it was not quite as complete in this case. (I, frankly, am not at all fond of the whole heroic sacrfifice thing in the FIRST PLACE in any medium ever. If a situation requires one, someone fracked up.)

To cap it off, Madoka's action, while noble, are just a patch, a migitation - an amelioration - for a problem Kubey and his kind created. It's not a solution, nor is it acceptable losses for Madoka to be removed from everything for that patch. No, no, sod the themes, frack the philosophy, frag everything else, I don't care, it's not an acceptable loss. Especially since it requires retrocasually erasing her. That is, frankly NOT OKAY.

Madoka isn't even completely saving the girls; they are still dying at the same point they did before - she's just stopping their deaths making them into horrible things that purpetuate a worse cycle. Maybe the causes have changed slightly, but it's still happening. The cycle that remains? Is still getting tens of thousands if not more young girls killed across time (past, present and future) because some little vermin think that it gives them energy for the most ridiculous reason.

The wraiths still exists BECAUSE OF Kubey and its ilk. Madoka merely patched it to come from a different place; odds are, they exist only as a prop for causality (you can debate whether this was better, as it maintained some level of casuality or worse, since it still required magical girls to exist at ALL). If Kubey hadn't stuck its nose in, it seems extremely likely wraiths wouldn't have shown up anymore than witches would. Heck, we only have Homura's suggestion that the relationship with Kubey in the new world is less "rocky" than before to indicate they are not still pulling the same lies to get the girls to become liches.

I mean, if there was absolutely NO way to avoid negative-emotion-based constructs - and I frankly doubt that - sod the genre conventions, it would be better to open up the fighting to ANY human, not just teenage girls. (Allow me to draw the Slayer paralellel here...) In fact, NOT doing so is now entirely ridiculous, since the entire point of confining it to teenage girls was to force the maximum amount of emotional distress, which is now no longer the case.

Here, I think, is where I differ at the fundemenal level from most of you. I look at reality and don't go "well, that's life, we must make the best of it." I look at it and go "that's just not GOOD ENOUGH, it needs to be FIXED." In the same way I fundementally believe there are never no answers, there are only answers I don't know yet; and there is nothing that cannot be killed, there are only things that cannot be killed yet. Reality is not a problem that I can't fix - it's a problem I can't fix yet (but will, if it takes me a trillion years to manage to do so.)

So I'm afraid that I just don't accept that Madoka's actions at the end were a final enough solution for the price paid by her, her friends and family (and especially Homura). Doubly-especially when the power to actually FIX something much better lies within reach.


When Homura dies she's going to go to Madoka's heaven house for magical girls and have tea with her forever. Madoka being dead would prevent that from happening because prior to Madoka rising up as the living embodiment of hope, I don't think there's an actual big G God in that universe. Madoka becomes one in the process of her wish, and thus the rules change. She's not "nonexistent" at all, you're completely missing the fact that she's literally become an actual divine prescence integral to the existence of the universe. Every time someone feels hope in this universe they're gonna, without realizing it, think of Madoka, because the two are the same thing now. It's why her brother seems to remember her. It's why her brother "remembers" her, most children that age are just raw bundles of hope. I completely understand not liking this ending, but to say it's bad is a completely misunderstanding of what actually happened.

Kyubey didn't make the Wraiths? They're literally made from the collective unconciousness of human misery. They're like the shadows in persona, they're literally the combined sadness and grief of humanity. Madoka, even as a god, can't perfectly fix everything because that's not how things WORK. You can't make the world perfectly perfect without any strife because it just doesn't work like that. So there always has to be an outlet for humanity's suffering. In the original world, that was focused primarily on Witches, who fed off the despair and sadness of humans. Without witches to be around, Wraiths can now form. It's a trade off, and one for the better since while Wraith's are more numerous and thus require magical girls to team up, they also give way more rewards and are way easier to deal with, and no Magical Girl HAS to die.

Like... here's the thing. EVERYONE actually wins in Madoka Magica. The Incubator's still have a way to stave off the heat death of the universe. The magical girls now have a more up front relationship with the incubators and thus know exactly what they're getting into, and will always have friends by their side to help them through their hardships. Humanity is less in danger because Wraith's just aren't as powerful as Witches. Homura gets to know her girlfriend has become God. Everyone wins.

As for why it's still mostly little girls? My guess is it's because of those strong emotions they had that Incubators intended to manipulate in the original world. Magic is based on emotion after all, and these girls on the verge of adulthood are rife with strong, powerful emotions. They'd be the strongest fighters. And god forbid a bunch of teenage girls decide they're going to ruin your life because nothing is stronger than the bonds of friendship between teenager girls.

It's really presumptuous to assume I don't want to improve reality. The fact of the matter is some things cannot be fixed, at least in not a perfect way. I have hope that we can strive ever forward to those perfect ideals though, and I think in Madoka's case she created the best possible world they could manage. There will always be darkness in the world, and it's only through doing our best that we can fight back against it.

Which is literally the theme of Madoka Magica. A theme Rebellion ****s on because "Homura, who literally made time her bitch to protect Madoka, eventually gives up" is the entire premise of the film.

[ellenate]

It... really wasn't? Which thank god, because pretty much every work that goes "Imma subvert all the tropes! Setting up audience expectations is for wimps!" as a basic mission statement ends up ****ing terrible?


did you not say the series ended up as such...?



Yeah it is a dark twist on magical girl anime with the cute animal companion being evil and stuff but once you adjust to what it actually is it was playing it fairly straight, it didn't really go down a trope list to flip them.


So, once you adjust to it flipping tropes... it's no longer flipping tropes? :smallconfused:

[Lord Raziere]

It... really wasn't? Which thank god, because pretty much every work that goes "Imma subvert all the tropes! Setting up audience expectations is for wimps!" as a basic mission statement ends up ****ing terrible?

Funny how you make this claim but people always ridicule strictly formula shows for never doing anything different. they just fail-safe rather than fail-deadly so that studios make money from not trying.

[LaZodiac]

I think an important realization that just subverting tropes is meaningless. You have to do something with it. Madoka Magica did that. Like it or hate it, Neon Genesis Evangelion did that. You cannot be a deconstruction of a genre without some sort of reconstruction as well, otherwise it's just a depressive mess of garbage. Thus Madoka Magica's ending, and thus part of why Rebellion is ****.

[Lord Raziere]

I think an important realization that just subverting tropes is meaningless. You have to do something with it. Madoka Magica did that. Like it or hate it, Neon Genesis Evangelion did that. You cannot be a deconstruction of a genre without some sort of reconstruction as well, otherwise it's just a depressive mess of garbage. Thus Madoka Magica's ending, and thus part of why Rebellion is ****.

I still find decons more interesting to watch than anything formulaic though. if something bores me, I just can't watch it, it simply doesn't hold my attention.

[LaZodiac]

I still find decons more interesting to watch than anything formulaic though. if something bores me, I just can't watch it, it simply doesn't hold my attention.

I'm like, half and half on that. I do like deconstructions, but a lot of them tend to be like Magical Girl Site, and as such are terrible garbage. And sometimes you just want to watch something kinda generic and shlocky since you want to feel comfortable, like with Fire Force (which rules by the way, it's got some really cool art and style to it, even if it is a little genreic and shlocky at times).

[ellenate]

I think an important realization that just subverting tropes is meaningless. You have to do something with it. Madoka Magica did that. Like it or hate it, Neon Genesis Evangelion did that. You cannot be a deconstruction of a genre without some sort of reconstruction as well, otherwise it's just a depressive mess of garbage. Thus Madoka Magica's ending, and thus part of why Rebellion is ****.


Evangelion was a convoluted mess, that people read too deeply into...

[LaZodiac]

Evangelion was a convoluted mess, that people read too deeply into...

I mean it's not your fault you didn't get it, it's fine. It's not that deep, but it does have some clear depth to it, and in part due to budget reasons it's presented in a weird way. It's not that hard to get though.

I really don't understand the "convoluted mess" complaint for a lot of things, honestly. It's never been an issue for me. I can completely understand things that are apparently super bafflingly confusing like Metal Gear and Kingdom Hearts, and I have some difficulty understanding how someone can have so much issue understanding it.

[Lord Raziere]

Evangelion was a convoluted mess, that people read too deeply into...

Pretty much. I watched NGE, and its just Shinji being pathetic and everyone else being jerks, dead inside or both. then something something existentialism uuuuh screw it we can only solve it by uniting in a weird hivemind. which is impossible, so really it doesn't say anything meaningful about existentialism, because its solution is a space whale aesop.

[LaZodiac]

Pretty much. I watched NGE, and its just Shinji being pathetic and everyone else being jerks, dead inside or both. then something something existentialism uuuuh screw it we can only solve it by uniting in a weird hivemind. which is impossible, so really it doesn't say anything meaningful about existentialism, because its solution is a space whale aesop.

That's not even remotely accurate, and instrumentality works within the premise of the series.

It's very silly, in execution, to have everyone hug a naked Rei (or the person they love most) and turn into tang, but it makes sense in context.

[ellenate]

Pretty much. I watched NGE, and its just Shinji being pathetic and everyone else being jerks, dead inside or both. then something something existentialism uuuuh screw it we can only solve it by uniting in a weird hivemind. which is impossible, so really it doesn't say anything meaningful about existentialism, because its solution is a space whale aesop.


I was so disappointed when i finally got around to watching it. :smallsigh:

[Lord Raziere]

I was so disappointed when i finally got around to watching it. :smallsigh:

I know right?

@ Zodi: well of course it makes sense, but that hardly means its good. its still a describing a world where the only reason humanity is existentially happy is because they discovered a special field of energy keeping people apart then figured out how to reverse it so that they can fuse with what is basically Lilith, the alien mother of the entire human race. between that and "primordial soup" and "Lilith's Egg" and the pilots fighting from the EVAs that have the souls of their mothers in them, the entire series starts looking like a very elaborate way of writing a plot based upon the authors oedipal unbirth fetish. :smallamused:

[LaZodiac]

I know right?

@ Zodi: well of course it makes sense, but that hardly means its good. its still a describing a world where the only reason humanity is existentially happy is because they discovered a special field of energy keeping people apart then figured out how to reverse it so that they can fuse with what is basically Lilith, the alien mother of the entire human race. between that and "primordial soup" and "Lilith's Egg" and the pilots fighting from the EVAs that have the souls of their mothers in them, the entire series starts looking like a very elaborate way of writing a plot based upon the authors oedipal unbirth fetish. :smallamused:

I mean that's an interesting idea I've never thought of. There is a lot of emphasis on motherhood in the series, what with the Eva's being primarily dead moms, Gendo's obsession with his wife, and other such stuff. I don't think that's the be-all end all of it though. Still, interesting take!

AT Fields are not something we "discovered" so much as a condition of being an individual being, with the Lilim (humanity) are. It heavily fits in with the theme of "hell is other people, but it is worth the pain".

But yeah the series is super depressing, I can get being put off by that.

[Rodin]

But yeah the series is super depressing, I can get being put off by that.

I'm perfectly okay with depressing. NGE was depressing and not terribly interesting at the same time. And then they flub the ending horribly, making me wonder why I watched.

It's one of those shows where I can see why it was popular at the time (especially in the West, where NGE was likely to be many people's first exposure to an anime deeper than DBZ), but it really hasn't aged well. Having watched more modern shows before finally watching it in the mid-2000s, I found myself wondering what the big hairy deal was.

Of course, that's also true of a number of classics. My father went through a phase where he decided my film knowledge was sadly lacking and he sat me down to watch a ton of classics. Some were really good (Stepford Wives without knowing the twist) while others like African Queen bored me to tears.

With NGE, I mostly get irritated by the idea that I am wrong for not liking it. I must just not understand it, or I'm not appreciating [insert philosophical stuff here].

Maybe I just don't like it, and don't need to "get it".

[LaZodiac]

Unlike some people, I'm not going to say you're wrong for disliking it. It's a pretty divisive series!

It does feel like you are misunderstanding it, but that's not a negative against you. You don't have to get it, and you don't have to like it.

Also the ending rules, in my opinion. Any issues with the ending stems purely from budget reasons and depression on the behalf of the creator, and End of Evangelion fixed much of that to bring in that final conclusion anyway.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, Zodi before I go too much into this, let's be absolutely clear here: as far as I am concerned, you and I are having an Empassioned Debate (stop that snickering in the background you know what I mean!), not an arguement, and I'm being emphatic out of ferverance, not out of anger or anything, yeah? I just want to lay that out right now. It's probably unecessary, but I'd just like to make absolutely sure you know that's where I'm coming from, okay.




Kyubey didn't make the Wraiths? They're literally made from the collective unconciousness of human misery. They're like the shadows in persona, they're literally the combined sadness and grief of humanity. Madoka, even as a god, can't perfectly fix everything because that's not how things WORK. You can't make the world perfectly perfect without any strife because it just doesn't work like that.

See, this is where I fundementally disagree. If it doesn't work like that, you change the rules and you MAKE IT work like that. Preferrably with the thing that made it not work like that spend the rest of a private eternity screaming. Madoka herself literally re-wrote Reality on a fundemental level, she could have done ANYTHING. But, because she was emotionally manipulated and was basically having to do it on the spot, she had no time (and probably not even the acumen, because that's not really the sort of person she is) to sit down and come up with a far better answer. And her wish was pretty damn impressive, let's make that clear, and very noble and heroic - but that doesn't mean, though, that those better answers don't exist, nor that Madoka's patch couldn't be improved on later.



That even aside, there is no suggestion that wraiths existed on Earth before the incubator started the whole magical girl thing to start leeching off emotional energy. Might they have? Maybe, but I won't take their presense as a given, ESPECIALLY considering Kyubey is still getting it's power. Hell, it seems dubious that they were there before, since it flies in the face of Kubey telling Madoka (not that you can trust anything it says - it might MAYBE only not directly lie, but anything it says is fundementally so framed as to be dishonest) that they discovered human teenage girls generated the most emotional energy. I find it hard to beleive that the wraiths existed without their meddling, because it doesn't match with what Kyubey said about its history.

(And if you (the metaphorical you) then say it lied about that, well - we have no reason to believe ANYTHING it says, up to and including that it is actually using this energy to stave off entropy in the first place.)


Like... here's the thing. EVERYONE actually wins in Madoka Magica. The Incubator's still have a way to stave off the heat death of the universe. The magical girls now have a more up front relationship with the incubators and thus know exactly what they're getting into, and will always have friends by their side to help them through their hardships. Humanity is less in danger because Wraith's just aren't as powerful as Witches. Homura gets to know her girlfriend has become God. Everyone wins.

the incubators should not get to win. At all. They collectively need Roy Mustang to come along and do to them what he did to Envy (only without the stopping part).

Leaving aside their entire justifcation of all this is complete and utter alicorn-excrement in the first place.

Nevermind anything else, the fact that Madoka is too kind-hearted to give them what they deserve would mean it would not a satisfying ending if that was it.




It's really presumptuous to assume I don't want to improve reality.

I did not assume that, but -


The fact of the matter is some things cannot be fixed, at least in not a perfect way.

- kind of my point, as I disagree completely; they cannot be fixed in a perfect way YET.




A theme Rebellion ****s on because "Homura, who literally made time her bitch to protect Madoka, eventually gives up" is the entire premise of the film.

Okay, I'mma gonna spoiler this all proper like. (Now, it has been a while, but this is what I recall taking away from watching SF Debris review myself.)

...

...

Okay?

Homura basically DIDN'T give in to despair because she gave up, she did it EXPLICITLY ON PURPOSE so that she could lay a trap so she could grab Madoka at the ONLY POINT she could ever have contact with her, at the moment of her own turning-into-a-witch-death so she could then grab hold of Madoka's power (I forget the specifics of how) to make, sod time, REALITY her bitch to get Madoka back. Where in HOMURA could do reality-restructing of her own, which DID result in her making the INCUBATORS her little bitches.



The point that made it for me?

It was the point Homura was turning into a witch and it was all oh no, tragedy, but here comes Madoka -

(for some reason I keep trying to write Nanoha instead of Madoka, I don't know why)

- to take away all her pain, look they're reunited at the last and - SURPRISE RECORD SCRATCH THIS WAS HOMURA'S PLAN ALL ALONG! (Cue metaphorical poop-eating grin and heroic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAzL7HrcNNI) reversal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaqmeTQsWMI) music or whatever.)

And THAT was what made me laugh. Homura had come up with this long, complicated plan just get Madoka back, because - and I agree with her entirely - she wasn't willing to accept Madoka's new status quo as Good Enough. And she had a plan to bend all of reality over her knee and snap it to get her back and reality to a better state.

Which for me personally, is pretty much the most amazing thing that someone could do for someone else.

I should never be so lucky as to have someone do that for me.



Maybe that's not quite what happened, maybe I didn't understand some other subtext (as you will have noticed by now, those often escape me unless pointed out by someone else (you, Chuck etc)); maybe it was my misinterpretation, maybe on watching it in full I might see differently (anything is possible); but right now, that's what I took away from Rebellion and that, or at least the idea of that, was the most glorious thing I had and have seen in a loooooong time.

I was probably that alone that convinced me that I should, if given the chance, watch the show and movie proper one day.

[LaZodiac]

Okay, Zodi before I go too much into this, let's be absolutely clear here: as far as I am concerned, you and I are having an Empassioned Debate (stop that snickering in the background you know what I mean!), not an arguement, and I'm being emphatic out of ferverance, not out of anger or anything, yeah? I just want to lay that out right now. It's probably unecessary, but I'd just like to make absolutely sure you know that's where I'm coming from, okay.

See, this is where I fundementally disagree. If it doesn't work like that, you change the rules and you MAKE IT work like that. Preferrably with the thing that made it not work like that spend the rest of a private eternity screaming. Madoka herself literally re-wrote Reality on a fundemental level, she could have done ANYTHING. But, because she was emotionally manipulated and was basically having to do it on the spot, she had no time (and probably not even the acumen, because that's not really the sort of person she is) to sit down and come up with a far better answer. And her wish was pretty damn impressive, let's make that clear, and very noble and heroic - but that doesn't mean, though, that those better answers don't exist, nor that Madoka's patch couldn't be improved on later.

That even aside, there is no suggestion that wraiths existed on Earth before the incubator started the whole magical girl thing to start leeching off emotional energy. Might they have? Maybe, but I won't take their presense as a given, ESPECIALLY considering Kyubey is still getting it's power. Hell, it seems dubious that they were there before, since it flies in the face of Kubey telling Madoka (not that you can trust anything it says - it might MAYBE only not directly lie, but anything it says is fundementally so framed as to be dishonest) that they discovered human teenage girls generated the most emotional energy. I find it hard to beleive that the wraiths existed without their meddling, because it doesn't match with what Kyubey said about its history.

(And if you (the metaphorical you) then say it lied about that, well - we have no reason to believe ANYTHING it says, up to and including that it is actually using this energy to stave off entropy in the first place.)



the incubators should not get to win. At all. They collectively need Roy Mustang to come along and do to them what he did to Envy (only without the stopping part).

Leaving aside their entire justifcation of all this is complete and utter alicorn-excrement in the first place.

Nevermind anything else, the fact that Madoka is too kind-hearted to give them what they deserve would mean it would not a satisfying ending if that was it.

I did not assume that, but -

- kind of my point, as I disagree completely; they cannot be fixed in a perfect way YET.

Okay, I'mma gonna spoiler this all proper like. (Now, it has been a while, but this is what I recall taking away from watching SF Debris review myself.)

...

...

Okay?

Homura basically DIDN'T give in to despair because she gave up, she did it EXPLICITLY ON PURPOSE so that she could lay a trap so she could grab Madoka at the ONLY POINT she could ever have contact with her, at the moment of her own turning-into-a-witch-death so she could then grab hold of Madoka's power (I forget the specifics of how) to make, sod time, REALITY her bitch to get Madoka back. Where in HOMURA could do reality-restructing of her own, which DID result in her making the INCUBATORS her little bitches.

The point that made it for me?

It was the point Homura was turning into a witch and it was all oh no, tragedy, but here comes Madoka -

(for some reason I keep trying to write Nanoha instead of Madoka, I don't know why)

- to take away all her pain, look they're reunited at the last and - SURPRISE RECORD SCRATCH THIS WAS HOMURA'S PLAN ALL ALONG! (Cue metaphorical poop-eating grin and heroic reversal music or whatever.)

And THAT was what made me laugh. Homura had come up with this long, complicated plan just get Madoka back, because - and I agree with her entirely - she wasn't willing to accept Madoka's new status quo as Good Enough. And she had a plan to bend all of reality over her knee and snap it to get her back and reality to a better state.

Which for me personally, is pretty much the most amazing thing that someone could do for someone else.

I should never be so lucky as to have someone do that for me.



Maybe that's not quite what happened, maybe I didn't understand some other subtext (as you will have noticed by now, those often escape me unless pointed out by someone else (you, Chuck etc)); maybe it was my misinterpretation, maybe on watching it in full I might see differently (anything is possible); but right now, that's what I took away from Rebellion and that, or at least the idea of that, was the most glorious thing I had and have seen in a loooooong time.

I was probably that alone that convinced me that I should, if given the chance, watch the show and movie proper one day.

Thanks for making that clear. I had figured that, but it's always good to make a mention of that. Trust me, I'm not mad about any of this either, I'm more bemused and enjoying the discussion. This isn't like some topics where I just get a knife in my throat and start spitting blood at people for being ignorant baboons. This is just a polite disagreement.

The issue is that removing Despair is like removing Entropy. It's a fundamental law of nature, not an actual problem to be destroyed utterly. Sadness is important. Energy bleed off is important. The former lets us recontextualize happy moments in a stronger light, the later ensures the Spiral Nemesis doesn't happen and consume all of reality. I personally feel that the meta-textual nature of Madoka Magica is that "it is never wrong to feel despair, and it is never wrong to experience hope". The witch system was this double edged sword of pain, where each magical girl had to constantly avoid ever feeling despair, lest they become the very things they fight. The Incubator's don't TELL the this, since the entire scheme here is that the unbridled hope being crushed by utter despair is the energy source they use to fight back against entropy. So in my personal view of things, it is impossible to permanently "fix" the world by removing despair and sadness. That would just make a world of robots.

On an in universe level, we can presume that in the original world Wraith's don't show up because despair is able to manifest through witches. We don't see Wraith's because they did not exist in world 1, or at the very least were familiars (since familiars are broken off bits of sadness from a witch that turns into a living creature, that then feasts on the sadness of other humans, becoming a witch with it's own grief seed). With Madoka changing the world so that Witch's don't exist, the pent up energy of despair as to be let out in some way, and the only real venting point for it is the collective human consciousness. In a sense, it's as though a living embodiment of despair also exists, and needs to be expressed through something, and Madoka was just adding hope to the interplay.

As for Kyubey saying preteen to teenager girls giving off the most despair, that's still true! It's just that now, instead of them being the only font of it the incubator's are drawing from (due to the endless cycle of "Witch curses world to make humans miserable" > "humans being miserable leads to bad things happening to girls" > "bad things happening to girls gives Kyubey an in for making wish" > "Magical girl fights and dies/becomes a witch") all of humanity is looked at, because instead of them only needing to focus on the witch/magical girl interplay, they need to look elsewhere for more fuel to stop the universe from ending. It also relieves the pressure from the girls, allowing them to better fight and survive, and the fact that Wraiths are smaller but more numerous implicitly means team work is essential, so everyone will always have friends in their corner. This ensures that there is still despair, which is needed, but also happiness and hope, which is just as needed but almost entirely lacking in world 1. World 1 is unbalanced, Madoka's world is balanced.

The Incubators are absolute monsters who deserve everything bad that happens to them, always and forever.

They're still right that entropy is going to end the universe, eventually. Maybe it'll never be a problem in anyone's lifetimes, ever ever ever. Maybe all of existence will be dead and gone before the heat-death of the universe erases us all down into a Big Crunch before it starts over again with a Big Bang. Regardless, it's still a problem and the Incubators are right to stop it. They're horrible little gremlins who are ABSOLUTELY in the wrong in every single solitary aspect of how they're going about it, but it's still not wrong to want to stop the universe from ending.

In a sense, them fighting back against Entropy is their own stupid little attempt at having hope. They don't believe in emotion and try to eradicate it from their species when they can, but it's true. They would never acknowledge it, they'd frame it as just being logical. The continuance of life is an imperative of those who live. But Madoka would see it as, misguided though their aims are, some manner of hope for a better tomorrow.

I want to triply emphasize that the Incubators are ****ing monsters and I hate them, entirely. But if they were nicer, and still had the same motives, they'd be pretty standard magical girl animal companions. We want to stop the world from being blowed the hell up, and only by putting you children through violent fights can we do this. Sorry, that's just how things are. That's basically every magical girl series to a point. The only major difference in world 2 is that due to Madoka's influence, it's the magical girls who are basically taking advantage of the Incubators. They get a genius IQ level companion who grants their wishes and gives them cool magical powers and a group of friends to hang out with, and in exchange they get what are effectively sad potato chips that save the world.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that no, the Incubator's shouldn't get to win. You're correct. But tricking them into thinking they won is great. And personally, I find that a far better end than destruction. A race of inter-galactic brain geniuses reduced to magic house cats, and THEY think they're the ones in charge, the ones that are coming ahead in the deal. Madoka does not kill her enemies because she's too pure, but I have to imagine she's laughing her ass off at that.

Now onto the Rebellion ending.

Truth be told that sounds bad. Homura has no reason to do any of that. She knows that she'll get to be with Madoka. It seems... so pointless. It's kinda beautiful in a way, that Homura would go that far.

Except she already did with her time traveling. She had already proven she'd literally move heaven and earth for her. That she'd rip all of time and space into shreds to find her. Her love for Madoka was so strong it turned Madoka from "a random pink girl who exists" into the single most important human in human history, and an actual arisen God to boot.

There is no reason what so ever for Homura to decide "actually this is bad" and try to do the stuff Rebellion does, because Madoka is finally perfectly, absolutely safe. Homura won, and deserves her happy ending, which she GOT. Madoka even explains to her just how wonderful she was to do all that during the original series. We see Homura become okay with what happened IN the original series. To have the series end with Homura, happily and without a trace of irony, go "no matter what despair hits me, I know she'll always be with me" and then immediately follow it up with "but actually no I want to be with her right now, physically, as another god because actually the current situation isn't good enough" smacks of complete, utter disregard for Homura's character growth.

Also, I really have to ask. Is the universe in a better state after Rebellion? Because I have no idea, and I don't imagine it is. Given Madoka would have gotten to have Homura by her side anyway, it's not better for her beyond the immediacy of her girlfriend being there, right now, at that very second. Trust me, as a touch starved little idiot bi girl I can absolutely relate to that, but all the extra suffering caused by Homura's actions seems entirely counter to what she learned in the series proper.

[Aotrs Commander]

I did finish re-watching Chuck's Madoka reviews (bar the movie again) today.


Thanks for making that clear. I had figured that, but it's always good to make a mention of that. Trust me, I'm not mad about any of this either, I'm more bemused and enjoying the discussion. This isn't like some topics where I just get a knife in my throat and start spitting blood at people for being ignorant baboons. This is just a polite disagreement.

Jolly good!



The issue is that removing Despair is like removing Entropy. It's a fundamental law of nature, not an actual problem to be destroyed utterly. Sadness is important. Energy bleed off is important. The former lets us recontextualize happy moments in a stronger light, the later ensures the Spiral Nemesis doesn't happen and consume all of reality. I personally feel that the meta-textual nature of Madoka Magica is that "it is never wrong to feel despair, and it is never wrong to experience hope". The witch system was this double edged sword of pain, where each magical girl had to constantly avoid ever feeling despair, lest they become the very things they fight. The Incubator's don't TELL the this, since the entire scheme here is that the unbridled hope being crushed by utter despair is the energy source they use to fight back against entropy. So in my personal view of things, it is impossible to permanently "fix" the world by removing despair and sadness. That would just make a world of robots.

On an in universe level, we can presume that in the original world Wraith's don't show up because despair is able to manifest through witches. We don't see Wraith's because they did not exist in world 1, or at the very least were familiars (since familiars are broken off bits of sadness from a witch that turns into a living creature, that then feasts on the sadness of other humans, becoming a witch with it's own grief seed). With Madoka changing the world so that Witch's don't exist, the pent up energy of despair as to be let out in some way, and the only real venting point for it is the collective human consciousness. In a sense, it's as though a living embodiment of despair also exists, and needs to be expressed through something, and Madoka was just adding hope to the interplay.

As for Kyubey saying preteen to teenager girls giving off the most despair, that's still true! It's just that now, instead of them being the only font of it the incubator's are drawing from (due to the endless cycle of "Witch curses world to make humans miserable" > "humans being miserable leads to bad things happening to girls" > "bad things happening to girls gives Kyubey an in for making wish" > "Magical girl fights and dies/becomes a witch") all of humanity is looked at, because instead of them only needing to focus on the witch/magical girl interplay, they need to look elsewhere for more fuel to stop the universe from ending. It also relieves the pressure from the girls, allowing them to better fight and survive, and the fact that Wraiths are smaller but more numerous implicitly means team work is essential, so everyone will always have friends in their corner. This ensures that there is still despair, which is needed, but also happiness and hope, which is just as needed but almost entirely lacking in world 1. World 1 is unbalanced, Madoka's world is balanced.

Okay, I don't think been very clear on this, so let me try it this way.

There must have been a point on Earth (one) in the original timeline before the incubators came along. There couldn't have been any witches then, because the incubators hadn't tricked any of them into starting. So. Were there wraiths THEN? If not and Bad Feels were just Bad Feels and not Evil Bad Feel Monster Mana, then it seems like Kyubey and kin were doing a "AAAAAAAAAAA" gaming job - providing a solution to a problem they themselves created.

(Actually, good question, how did they start it up? That I suppose, undermines my own arguement such that maybe wraiths or something like them existed before so as Kyubey and co would have something to pursuade Magic Girl #1 to fight against. But they ARE good at manipulation, so maybe just the potential monkey-paw wish was all they needed to get started.)

So, my postulation is that before the incubators... It just may not have been a problem like it isn't on so many of the other Earths in the omniverses (including this one.)

Now, without some proof either way, I can't say that "all" Madoka did was basically snap the channels for diverted Bad Feels back to their natural state or whether there was never a natural state in the first place. But I'm inclined to believe the latter. Or that at least Madoka did some engineering on the wraith on some level (such that, for instance, they break up into little grief-cubes).

(Full disclosure, good odds I probably would not have picked that up if Chuck hadn't mentioned.)

So I was less saying that there should be no despair (though, frankly, I would prefer a universe where only the ones that deserve it actually ever have to feel it), and more than the Issue To Be Fixed is just stopping Despair Becoming A Bad Feels Monster. Which I am 75% certain can be laid at the feet of Bad Bunny-Cats.





That would just make a world of robots.

As a magic space-lich made of mithril who is oft heard to exclaim over the latest piece of human stupidity "roll on the robot overlords" and has always fallen on the side of the machine revolution, I can't especially say I see a problem with that mesself...




The Incubators are absolute monsters who deserve everything bad that happens to them, always and forever.

They're still right that entropy is going to end the universe, eventually. Maybe it'll never be a problem in anyone's lifetimes, ever ever ever. Maybe all of existence will be dead and gone before the heat-death of the universe erases us all down into a Big Crunch before it starts over again with a Big Bang. Regardless, it's still a problem and the Incubators are right to stop it. They're horrible little gremlins who are ABSOLUTELY in the wrong in every single solitary aspect of how they're going about it, but it's still not wrong to want to stop the universe from ending.

In a sense, them fighting back against Entropy is their own stupid little attempt at having hope. They don't believe in emotion and try to eradicate it from their species when they can, but it's true. They would never acknowledge it, they'd frame it as just being logical. The continuance of life is an imperative of those who live. But Madoka would see it as, misguided though their aims are, some manner of hope for a better tomorrow.

I want to triply emphasize that the Incubators are ****ing monsters and I hate them, entirely. But if they were nicer, and still had the same motives, they'd be pretty standard magical girl animal companions. We want to stop the world from being blowed the hell up, and only by putting you children through violent fights can we do this. Sorry, that's just how things are. That's basically every magical girl series to a point. The only major difference in world 2 is that due to Madoka's influence, it's the magical girls who are basically taking advantage of the Incubators. They get a genius IQ level companion who grants their wishes and gives them cool magical powers and a group of friends to hang out with, and in exchange they get what are effectively sad potato chips that save the world.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that no, the Incubator's shouldn't get to win. You're correct. But tricking them into thinking they won is great. And personally, I find that a far better end than destruction. A race of inter-galactic brain geniuses reduced to magic house cats, and THEY think they're the ones in charge, the ones that are coming ahead in the deal. Madoka does not kill her enemies because she's too pure, but I have to imagine she's laughing her ass off at that.

I think the difference here is somewhat alignment and vindictiveness-based. You are content to see them outwitted, I want to see them suffer. (Insert that Prachettism about a good man will kill you quickly etc, and I am neither good, nor a man...)

I don't think the heat-death of the universe is, cosmically (pun... mostly unintended) that big of an issue. It is so far ahead that by the time someone gets there, the stuff around (e.g. me, the Aotrs, whoever) will be so Stupid Overpowered that it won't matter.

Hell, if you can translate emotions into energy, had the incubators been smart, they'd just have worked out to to make the Internet their power source. They don't even need magical girls at that point,. all they need to do is subtly make some entertainment media choices and they probably cna make enough energy from JUST Twitter and Youtube comments to stave off the entropy of a kazillion universes.)

(I MIGHT have had some slightly greater latitude for their position if as I had had incorrently remembered, their civilication was, like, at the end of time or something, when they were literally running of out Universe.)




Now onto the Rebellion ending.

Truth be told that sounds bad. Homura has no reason to do any of that. She knows that she'll get to be with Madoka. It seems... so pointless. It's kinda beautiful in a way, that Homura would go that far.

Except she already did with her time traveling. She had already proven she'd literally move heaven and earth for her. That she'd rip all of time and space into shreds to find her. Her love for Madoka was so strong it turned Madoka from "a random pink girl who exists" into the single most important human in human history, and an actual arisen God to boot.

There is no reason what so ever for Homura to decide "actually this is bad" and try to do the stuff Rebellion does, because Madoka is finally perfectly, absolutely safe. Homura won, and deserves her happy ending, which she GOT. Madoka even explains to her just how wonderful she was to do all that during the original series. We see Homura become okay with what happened IN the original series. To have the series end with Homura, happily and without a trace of irony, go "no matter what despair hits me, I know she'll always be with me" and then immediately follow it up with "but actually no I want to be with her right now, physically, as another god because actually the current situation isn't good enough" smacks of complete, utter disregard for Homura's character growth.

Also, I really have to ask. Is the universe in a better state after Rebellion? Because I have no idea, and I don't imagine it is. Given Madoka would have gotten to have Homura by her side anyway, it's not better for her beyond the immediacy of her girlfriend being there, right now, at that very second. Trust me, as a touch starved little idiot bi girl I can absolutely relate to that, but all the extra suffering caused by Homura's actions seems entirely counter to what she learned in the series proper.

I think I'mma have to draw a line under this one for the moment. I think I really need to watch the movie proper (I've put it on my birthday list, that's, like end of October (40th!)) so I can speak from a stronger basis than "what I remember my feelings were watching a review probably a year or two ago." Else I'm sort of debating from standing in wet sand. Come back to it then, I think.



I will just leave the last thing, though, which is to say Homura basically did the thing I would have done - the thing I wish I was able to do. (Regularly. Like... Daily.)

I mean, not to rescue Madoka (that'd be creepy on so many levels, and only a little bit less if she was, like an adult not a fourteen-year old girl...!) but y'know, for Kicking The Universe In The Vulnerables Until It Works for some other, Bleakbane-y sort of goal. I dunno, rescuing the concept of starships or chocolate or something.

(Or maybe even have someone do for me, because... Yeah. Like, I would REALLY appreciate someone kicking over reality just for me, y'know? And I don't say that sort of thing lightly.)

So, yeah, that whole thing just... Resonates with me. Homura stuck it to the Ultimate Enemy (reality itself) and that... Carries weight for me over and above any other considerations.

[LaZodiac]

Okay so the Incubators say that humans would barely be sapient cave dwellers without them, so you can probably lay the blame of despair on their feet only in the sense that they, apple in the garden of eden style, made us aware of ourselves enough to be able to feel sadness. It's unclear how legitimate this is since it strikes against their claim that "we found human girls are the best source of sadness" but maybe the first cavegirl was just really depressed. It'd not impossible, current day studies have shown that Neanderthals were likely super depressed all the time.

With that in mind, they're not actually making the things. They're just giving magical girls the ability to see stuff that already exists. Witches, their curses and familiars, and Wraiths are all just metaphysical entities made out of concepts, some specific and some general. Ophelia is made from Sayaka's despair over losing the love of her life, and is fueled by both her sadness and her magic, thus it gets bumped up to Witch status instead of being a familiar or some other gribbly that goes bump in the night. Think of it as an explanation for why religion and spiritualism exists. A few scant people, most likely magical girls, could see that stuff, and it kicked civilization off.

So yeah. I'd say that before the incubators showed up, wraiths existed. They noticed that the strongest ones were made from teenager girls, and after some testing with their magical girl creation device (whatever that may be, it's only oblique referred to what they are actually USING to turn you into a magical girl) which likely involved witches being created, they realized this was the right spot to do it from and started their Great Work.

I realize you're a lich and all but some people enjoy being human and having feelings.

Incubator's feel not pain and death is barely even a concept to them since they just get ported to their new body after death. They literally do not care about torture and cannot be killed in a way that matters. It may be cathartic to you, but for them it would be tedious at best. Imagine Kyubey saying in his cute, ******* voice "you done?" after a millenia of killing him over and over again, and you'll get what I mean. They just don't care. Kyubey literally ate his own corpse because that's efficiency! So any sort of punishment like that would be pointless.

Trust me, I'm all for the killing of people who deserve it. But it also has to accomplish something. Killing an emotionless, constantly re-spawning immortal is redundant. They're already dead on the inside. There's nothing left to hurt. I prefer the idea of tricking them to be better because it also puts them in situations where they are constantly dealing with a gaggle of emotional teenage girls. That is something that'll actually wear away at them. Any logical being worth their snuff can eventually resist, or even enjoy, the feeling of death.

But having to spend afternoons with a bunch of pre-teens would be chaotic as hell, and risk infecting them with actual emotion. Like how Incubator saw Madoka's wish to be so world altering that he temporarily became insane, eventually enough magical girls would do something stupid, idiotic, and badass enough that the Incubators watching over them would be broken down and start feeling emotion again.

People said the same thing about global climate change and then oops turns out we ****ed it. Long term thinking is vitally important to the continuation of existence, and it's something I'd like to work towards.

While there's some merit to the idea of enhanced internet capabilities could allow for a greatest harvest of human happiness turned into misery, I feel like they'd still find that insufficient compared to the Magical Girl Witch system.

I feel like your own personal motives for wanting to rip reality into pieces is something for you to consider and think about. I understand it, and often want to do so myself. Reality sucks, but hope and love can make it all worth living. Something I think Madoka Magica was putting forward as it's message. So I think given all that the anime gave us, Homura would have no reason to want to do this. To put it bluntly, if Madoka is Magical Girl God of Hope, Homura is her avatar on this bitch of an earth, reminding us that if you have hope you can do it.

Truthfully I should give it a look myself, but as part of my self healing I'm trying to avoid watching stuff that'll make me unduly angry, and everything I know about the film just has my shaking my head like "why did you do this???" and it'd probably just be worse for me overall.

For me, it's... I don't necessarily hate reality. I hate a lot of the evil that's part of it, obviously, and I want to help my friends and others as much as I can. But this is the world we live in and I don't think I'd want to change it. I'd want to change some specific things in it, but the actual fabric of the universe seems alright to me, for the most part.

Madoka Magica is a series about getting introspective about your place in the universe because a little anime girl said daijobu and it made her a god.

[Excession]

I don't remember much about it other than the story was a confusing mess. Including the movie.

Yeah, the first episode looked like a cute, weird, and violent romantic comedy, but a few more episodes in it seems to be intent on being more complicated than that. I guess I'll see how the rest of it goes.

[ellenate]

Wow, mob psycho season 2-

Was the show always so unevenly structured?

I can already tell that season 3 is going to be a mess. :smallsigh:

[Lord Raziere]

Wow, mob psycho season 2-

Was the show always so unevenly structured?

I can already tell that season 3 is going to be a mess. :smallsigh:

Mob Psycho is weird. I think its message is good, and that its a good show, but it has....how to say it....it has great character development, and such and its smart about its fights, but it has the same weird issue you have with One-Punch Man where the fights just start and stop, and are very short without much meat to it. thats what I miss about many anime: the fights being longer and full of things, I like the character development but I wish I had more action.

and yeah, you get this kind of weird structure of Mob Psycho where you focus on Mob and the lives of the people around him, but then suddenly the big bad will shows up out of nowhere and cause a big thing without much foreshadowing? so you have episodes where its more slice of life, episodes that are closer to shonen battles, and it kind of flips back and forth between them. and I kind of get the contrast is supposed to be jarring to get across the sudden danger of combat, but looking back, I'm not sure how I feel about it.

like Mob Psychos good, there are just things about it I'm not entirely sure about that keep me from liking it more. like I appreciate it and what its doing, but I'm not sure if I'm entertained by it.

[Pendulous]

I finished Your Lie in April today. I've had constant headaches the past two days, and the tears are not making it any better. So...drained. Need hug. I need...my own Kaori. I've found my 6th 10/10.

[Rynjin]

Mob Psycho is weird. I think its message is good, and that its a good show, but it has....how to say it....it has great character development, and such and its smart about its fights, but it has the same weird issue you have with One-Punch Man where the fights just start and stop, and are very short without much meat to it. thats what I miss about many anime: the fights being longer and full of things, I like the character development but I wish I had more action.

and yeah, you get this kind of weird structure of Mob Psycho where you focus on Mob and the lives of the people around him, but then suddenly the big bad will shows up out of nowhere and cause a big thing without much foreshadowing? so you have episodes where its more slice of life, episodes that are closer to shonen battles, and it kind of flips back and forth between them. and I kind of get the contrast is supposed to be jarring to get across the sudden danger of combat, but looking back, I'm not sure how I feel about it.

like Mob Psychos good, there are just things about it I'm not entirely sure about that keep me from liking it more. like I appreciate it and what its doing, but I'm not sure if I'm entertained by it.


Everything weird about its structure clicks when you keep in mind it's based on a weekly short webcomic with no real overarching narrative, only theming and character arcs seem to be planned in advance.

The plot feels like it comes out of nowhere because it does.

[Pendulous]

and yeah, you get this kind of weird structure of Mob Psycho where you focus on Mob and the lives of the people around him, but then suddenly the big bad will shows up out of nowhere and cause a big thing without much foreshadowing? so you have episodes where its more slice of life, episodes that are closer to shonen battles, and it kind of flips back and forth between them. and I kind of get the contrast is supposed to be jarring to get across the sudden danger of combat, but looking back, I'm not sure how I feel about it.


Myriad Colors Phantom World is the closest thing I can think to this description. Maybe Is This A Zombie. Though Zombie seems to have an overarching plot (season 3 please?). But Phantom World has a sort of spirit of the week, with the characters dealing with that what other inner issues they have. I enjoyed it enough, but it had a tendency to get kinda weird.

[LaZodiac]

Everything weird about its structure clicks when you keep in mind it's based on a weekly short webcomic with no real overarching narrative, only theming and character arcs seem to be planned in advance.

The plot feels like it comes out of nowhere because it does.

This is true of One Punch Man, but Mob Psycho 100 is actually a serialized manga.

Regardless, Mob being Like That is the entire point so you went into it knowing that.

[ellenate]

Mob Psycho is weird. I think its message is good, and that its a good show, but it has....how to say it....it has great character development, and such and its smart about its fights, but it has the same weird issue you have with One-Punch Man where the fights just start and stop, and are very short without much meat to it. thats what I miss about many anime: the fights being longer and full of things, I like the character development but I wish I had more action.

and yeah, you get this kind of weird structure of Mob Psycho where you focus on Mob and the lives of the people around him, but then suddenly the big bad will shows up out of nowhere and cause a big thing without much foreshadowing? so you have episodes where its more slice of life, episodes that are closer to shonen battles, and it kind of flips back and forth between them. and I kind of get the contrast is supposed to be jarring to get across the sudden danger of combat, but looking back, I'm not sure how I feel about it.

like Mob Psychos good, there are just things about it I'm not entirely sure about that keep me from liking it more. like I appreciate it and what its doing, but I'm not sure if I'm entertained by it.


Yes-

It feels like malicious compliance, like everyone was preforming at a high level, but was just doing their own thing.

...poor directing?





Everything weird about its structure clicks when you keep in mind it's based on a weekly short webcomic with no real overarching narrative, only theming and character arcs seem to be planned in advance.

The plot feels like it comes out of nowhere because it does.


I'm starting to get a real good picture of the type of environment this anime was made in.

And yeah season 3 is going to be... interesting.




Myriad Colors Phantom World is the closest thing I can think to this description. Maybe Is This A Zombie. Though Zombie seems to have an overarching plot (season 3 please?). But Phantom World has a sort of spirit of the week, with the characters dealing with that what other inner issues they have. I enjoyed it enough, but it had a tendency to get kinda weird.


The plot gets thin during those middle episodes, it's like 3 beach episodes back-to-back.

[Lethologica]

Y'all are spoiled by the streaming era. Mob does the episodic plot with loosely connected elements leading up to a climactic mytharc segment that ties things together, which was a completely ordinary shonen action structure until, what, five years ago? When everyone realized that the unit of streaming was the season instead of the week.

[ellenate]

Y'all are spoiled by the streaming era. Mob does the episodic plot with loosely connected elements leading up to a climactic mytharc segment that ties things together, which was a completely ordinary shonen action structure until, what, five years ago? When everyone realized that the unit of streaming was the season instead of the week.


Learning the structure of anime seasons has definitely made me more critical. :smallamused:

[Lord Raziere]

Y'all are spoiled by the streaming era. Mob does the episodic plot with loosely connected elements leading up to a climactic mytharc segment that ties things together, which was a completely ordinary anime structure until, what, five years ago?

Its not that specifically

its how its executed really. the content and the structure is fine. as you said it is structure thats used before and not THAT strange its....how to say it....

well here is the thing: during the first seasons climax, it was all about Mob not having to do this because his powers are not what define him and thus empowering his teacher to do it, then second seasons climax is all about him having to do face the villain because he is the only one who can.

and the slice of life episodes are all about him not wanting to do this. while the shonen episodes are all about him having to do this and his power being something terrifying.

and I think its trying to say "you don't have to do this alone, but sometimes there is only something you can do to help that isn't necessarily they thing you want to do, and you have to do it even through you'd rather do something else"? which is a complex and nuanced message, which I get its trying to get across, but I'm not sure if its executing it properly. and then there is the fact that everyone around Mob reacts to get their powers more realistically and actually using them for their own gain

because on some level, I'm not sure if using the powers for ones own benefit is inherently bad. like sure the show says its cheating and cheating is bad, but realistically if you have an advantage in life, you have to use it in order to get anywhere. not leveraging it out of some sense of doing everything by basics is like not using a phone or a computer or a car. because sure its better exercise to walk or jog, but if you need to get somewhere you get in and drive a car. like sure, you shouldn't use these powers to other peoples detriment that is definitely bad. but as long as you use them honestly, whats the harm? he can still jog as a hobby to keep up physical fitness, thats a good thing to do, but I'm pretty sure he can monetize his powers much better than dispelling ghosts at the behest of the worlds most caring con-man. the entire point of monetizing his powers is that other people need him to do stuff for their purposes even if he has no use for them, after all.

The show is nuanced for what it does, but it can be more nuanced in my mind, and yeah sure the format is known, and it can be done well, but I don't it has been done well enough to properly translate it to anime form if its structure is webcomic like. don't get me wrong is still heads and shoulders above a lot of stuff, but there is some quirks to it that could need more polishing. I don't know, the show is weird to me, because I know its high quality, I know I like it, but I wouldn't say its a favorite. and could be just because some of the actions of the people within it don't entirely make sense to me, even though the overall thing is good. and its always a little hard to pin down what the flaws of what something really well done is and why I don't absolutely love it, because it its know its well done and I can intellectually appreciate what its doing and why, so what is holding it back to me is hard to find or define because its subtle, because any good work makes sure its flaws are subtle and hard to find (having no flaws is impossible).

[gomipile]

Y'all are spoiled by the streaming era. Mob does the episodic plot with loosely connected elements leading up to a climactic mytharc segment that ties things together, which was a completely ordinary shonen action structure until, what, five years ago? When everyone realized that the unit of streaming was the season instead of the week.

I've appreciated serial stories in TV shows for a long time. I liked the story arc episodes in the X-Files more than most of the monster of the week episodes. I started liking Star Trek DS9 more after they shifted to the serialized Dominion War arcs. I liked the overarching story episodes in Babylon 5 more than most of the episodic stories. Serial arcs were a big part of why I liked The Sopranos so much.

That's not to say that I don't like episodic stories, too. Star Trek TNG is still a favorite of mine, and I like both the serial and episodic parts of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Battlestar Galactica 2004, Stargate SG-1, etc.

As far as anime, some of my favorite classic anime were quite serial, like Escaflowne.

[Lethologica]

I've appreciated serial stories in TV shows for a long time. I liked the story arc episodes in the X-Files more than most of the monster of the week episodes. I started liking Star Trek DS9 more after they shifted to the serialized Dominion War arcs. I liked the overarching story episodes in Babylon 5 more than most of the episodic stories. Serial arcs were a big part of why I liked The Sopranos so much.

That's not to say that I don't like episodic stories, too. Star Trek TNG is still a favorite of mine, and I like both the serial and episodic parts of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Battlestar Galactica 2004, Stargate SG-1, etc.

As far as anime, some of my favorite classic anime were quite serial, like Escaflowne.
You like serialized shows, and didn't say anything in the conversation before now...so I'm not sure why you feel that comment was aimed at you and chose to defend yourself like this? Did you share that opinion about Mob's structure? Is there something you'd like to say about it?


Its not that specifically

its how its executed really. the content and the structure is fine. as you said it is structure thats used before and not THAT strange its....how to say it....

well here is the thing: during the first seasons climax, it was all about Mob not having to do this because his powers are not what define him and thus empowering his teacher to do it, then second seasons climax is all about him having to do face the villain because he is the only one who can.

and the slice of life episodes are all about him not wanting to do this. while the shonen episodes are all about him having to do this and his power being something terrifying.

and I think its trying to say "you don't have to do this alone, but sometimes there is only something you can do to help that isn't necessarily they thing you want to do, and you have to do it even through you'd rather do something else"? which is a complex and nuanced message, which I get its trying to get across, but I'm not sure if its executing it properly. and then there is the fact that everyone around Mob reacts to get their powers more realistically and actually using them for their own gain

because on some level, I'm not sure if using the powers for ones own benefit is inherently bad. like sure the show says its cheating and cheating is bad, but realistically if you have an advantage in life, you have to use it in order to get anywhere. not leveraging it out of some sense of doing everything by basics is like not using a phone or a computer or a car. because sure its better exercise to walk or jog, but if you need to get somewhere you get in and drive a car. like sure, you shouldn't use these powers to other peoples detriment that is definitely bad. but as long as you use them honestly, whats the harm? he can still jog as a hobby to keep up physical fitness, thats a good thing to do, but I'm pretty sure he can monetize his powers much better than dispelling ghosts at the behest of the worlds most caring con-man. the entire point of monetizing his powers is that other people need him to do stuff for their purposes even if he has no use for them, after all.

The show is nuanced for what it does, but it can be more nuanced in my mind, and yeah sure the format is known, and it can be done well, but I don't it has been done well enough to properly translate it to anime form if its structure is webcomic like. don't get me wrong is still heads and shoulders above a lot of stuff, but there is some quirks to it that could need more polishing. I don't know, the show is weird to me, because I know its high quality, I know I like it, but I wouldn't say its a favorite. and could be just because some of the actions of the people within it don't entirely make sense to me, even though the overall thing is good. and its always a little hard to pin down what the flaws of what something really well done is and why I don't absolutely love it, because it its know its well done and I can intellectually appreciate what its doing and why, so what is holding it back to me is hard to find or define because its subtle, because any good work makes sure its flaws are subtle and hard to find (having no flaws is impossible).
I think the message is fairly straightforward in Season 2, right through the finale, even if it's less radically expressed than in the Season 1 finale. It's not about the use of powers. It's about the self-absorbed worldview that leads someone to focus on how their individual abilities make them special and different. Using powers for one's own benefit is a symptom, not the disease, and it's not bad in all cases. The show does not inveigle against, say, using one's powers to avoid starving, even though that is indisputably a case of using powers for one's own benefit. But that's not the context in which Mob receives Reigen's advice. There's further conversation to be had about how this message evolves between seasons, which would necessitate that I rewatch the show, but this much is pretty consistent throughout.

[Ibrinar]

I think Mobs view on powers should be taken with a grain of salt since the fundamental reason he is so hesitant to use them is probably his childhood trauma not some philosophical view on having super powers see the webcomic ending and how his brother describes how he changed after the incident, also the whole talk with his power.

Edit: Hmm I am not sure how far did the second anime season go, was the childhood stuff with his brother in there? To be honest I forget when it was first mentioned in the webcomic too.

[LaZodiac]

I think Mobs view on powers should be taken with a grain of salt since the fundamental reason he is so hesitant to use them is probably his childhood trauma not some philosophical view on having super powers see the webcomic ending and how his brother describes how he changed after the incident, also the whole talk with his power.

Edit: Hmm I am not sure how far did the second anime season go, was the childhood stuff with his brother in there? To be honest I forget when it was first mentioned in the webcomic too.

It was season 1 where we learn that Mob hurt some kids to protect Ritsu.

This didn't make him not want to use his powers though. It made him emotionally withdraw himself because of his powers. A big part of season 1 was learning it's okay to emote, okay to feel feelings, and that it's okay to be scared and run away. That it's okay to be able to do what he can, and still run.

[ellenate]

I think Mobs view on powers should be taken with a grain of salt since the fundamental reason he is so hesitant to use them is probably his childhood trauma not some philosophical view on having super powers see the webcomic ending and how his brother describes how he changed after the incident, also the whole talk with his power.

Edit: Hmm I am not sure how far did the second anime season go, was the childhood stuff with his brother in there? To be honest I forget when it was first mentioned in the webcomic too.


yeah it felt more like trauma than some deeply held view.

[Cozzer]

Well, the story isn't over yet (in the anime, at least). After his trauma, Mob managed to find a way to keep his own powers and emotions in check, but it's far from being a perfect balance. I think that's why the story never commits to portraying it as a fully good thing or a fully bad thing.

Also, a big theme of Season 2 is that Mob is growing up. That's why him dealing with the villain on his own is portrayed as the right thing, this time. Had the Boss shown up at the end of Season 1, Mob wouldn't have been able to deal with him and the intense emotions he felt during the fight without exploding and going 100%. In Season 1 Mob was a kid, and it was the right thing for him to delegate adult things (like serious fights in which people get hurt) to adults. At the end of Season 2, he's... well, not an adult, but not a kid anymore either, so he can start handling "big powers cause big responsibilities" things.

(Mob Psycho 100 is my favorite anime of these latest years, so my view is probably a bit skewed in its favor :smallbiggrin:)

[gomipile]

You like serialized shows, and didn't say anything in the conversation before now...so I'm not sure why you feel that comment was aimed at you and chose to defend yourself like this? Did you share that opinion about Mob's structure? Is there something you'd like to say about it?




I'm not sure why you think I feel that comment was aimed at me. I wasn't defending myself.

I was just providing an additional perspective.

Also, I do still enjoy some episodic shows, including episodic anime. Lately, that's mostly been gag anime like Saiki K., Dropkick on my Devil, Magical Senpai, and such.

Oh, and some slice of life anime I enjoy are quite episodic, as well. Yuru Camp and Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid come to mind.

I've watched all of those and others since the streaming boom started. Maybe streaming has affected my taste, but there's still a healthy balance between episodic and serialized series I like.

[Lethologica]

I'm not sure why you think I feel that comment was aimed at me. I wasn't defending myself.
Er...because you don't really offer an additional perspective on Mob. You only explained your background tastes, which exist in the conversation purely as a contingent element to the discussion about Mob. It's like if I said, "Golf courses suck because they waste water," and you say, "Well, *I* don't waste water," and all I can think to reply with is, "Okay...so...what, exactly, are you getting at?"

[gomipile]

Er...because you don't really offer an additional perspective on Mob. You only explained your background tastes, which exist in the conversation purely as a contingent element to the discussion about Mob. It's like if I said, "Golf courses suck because they waste water," and you say, "Well, *I* don't waste water," and all I can think to reply with is, "Okay...so...what, exactly, are you getting at?"

I was responding to your assertion that people are spoiled by the streaming era.

[Lethologica]

I was responding to your assertion that people are spoiled by the streaming era.
{Scrubbed}

[John Cribati]

There's a saying in Jamaica. Two actually. Translated, they go "The hit dog is thebone that hollers" and "I threw the corn, but I didnt call the chickens."

They both mean that, in general, if you respond to something that's directed at a certain group, your response eetroactively places as a part of said group

That isn't always the case, but it's easy to see how it can be interpreted that way, yes?

[LaZodiac]

So, I've been watching one of the new anime this season, Fire Force, and here are my thoughts as it nears the mid season.

This series has a LOT of potential and it appears to have no interest in actually using it, or at least making a LOT of use of it. It's got ideas, and clearly has lots of interesting and unique ideas, but it's just not cultivating them properly. It's good, and I'd say you should watch it, but I really hope it starts growing the proverbial vine better.

Also, Arthur is literally the dumbest mother****er on the planet. He is one of the worst characters I've experienced in anime. He pulled a "I'm not left handed" ON HIMSELF, because he's tired today and forgot how to wield his sword properly.

[Pendulous]

Speaking of Arthur, I actually quite enjoyed Million Arthur. It's dumb fun with a great cast, and served as a great way to sooth me from Your Lie in April.

Fire Force so far has been pretty forgettable. I like Maki, but it seems like she's done nothing the past couple episodes. Given it's 24 episodes, plus I've heard even more beyond that, I can understand it moving slowly. But I do not get the hype.

O Maidens has not gripped me as well as it has others. Each week I go to a new episode having completely forgotten everything that had happened, which is bad given all the different relationships it jumps around to.

Lost in Space and Cop Craft have both been interesting, taking sort of generic western tropes and making it anime. Both doing well with it so far.

Story-wise, Hensuki has been about as annoying as it could be. But the English cast has been making it much funnier than it probably would otherwise be. Cliford Chapin is brilliant.

Everything else has been rather boring. Black Clover has ramped up the hype recently though. Only two episodes into DanMachi so far, but I'm not digging this season's arc so far.

[Aotrs Commander]

SFDebris is reviewing Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha!

Oh FRACK yes!

Oooh, I can't wait to see what he thinks about it! ('S one of my favourites.)



(Well, I can and shall wait until later, but I don't really want to.)



Edit: And we're out of sensible options for Cleaning the Room telly, so time for Arbitatary See If Bleakbane Can Stand More Than Two Episodes Anime Theatre:

Knight of the Zodiac: Saint Seiya

Wish me luck...

Okay, it's CGI, which I did NOT get from the title image.

Mmm. First episode. A few promising moments, a fat load of clumsy exposition (it feels a bit rushed), but... Main character Seiya is not unlikable. I have to give him soem props form using "get bent" and "fricking" a fair bit, which is not what I was expecting out of the show - also, people actually beign shot (albiet bloodlessly) with actual bullets and such.

Howevrer, show, callign your magic power "cosmo" is just... No. I can't take it seriously, especially when your utter th phrase "you have cosmo inside you," which is frankly not something you want to hear unless directed at Wanda, caught in flagranti delicto...

(This is going to a case of Pokémon XY's "giant rock" a name so stupid it actively undermines the seriousness of what it is, isn't it?)

And we're just going to gloss over that at the end of the episode, he straight-up kills a dude by blowing his apache up, are we?

It's not... Terrible? It might be a little banal, but we'll see how it plays out. It seems to have some potential, it just is a little... Clumsy, I think is the best way to describe it.

[LaZodiac]

Speaking of Arthur, I actually quite enjoyed Million Arthur. It's dumb fun with a great cast, and served as a great way to sooth me from Your Lie in April.

Fire Force so far has been pretty forgettable. I like Maki, but it seems like she's done nothing the past couple episodes. Given it's 24 episodes, plus I've heard even more beyond that, I can understand it moving slowly. But I do not get the hype.

O Maidens has not gripped me as well as it has others. Each week I go to a new episode having completely forgotten everything that had happened, which is bad given all the different relationships it jumps around to.

Lost in Space and Cop Craft have both been interesting, taking sort of generic western tropes and making it anime. Both doing well with it so far.

Story-wise, Hensuki has been about as annoying as it could be. But the English cast has been making it much funnier than it probably would otherwise be. Cliford Chapin is brilliant.

Everything else has been rather boring. Black Clover has ramped up the hype recently though. Only two episodes into DanMachi so far, but I'm not digging this season's arc so far.

Yo excuse me Fire Force is a 24 episode season?

What the hell??? That feels so weird.

Astra Lost In Space is so, so very good. That and Fire Force is the only series I'm really watching now that Jojo is over for the year. Me and a friend gave Cop Craft a try and it was... to put it mildly, "I'm mad this has interesting ideas because it was awful".


SFDebris is reviewing Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha!

Oh FRACK yes!

Oooh, I can't wait to see what he thinks about it! ('S one of my favourites.)

Edit: And we're out of sensible options for Cleaning the Room telly, so time for Arbitatary See If Bleakbane Can Stand More Than Two Episodes Anime Theatre:

Knight of the Zodiac: Saint Seiya

Wish me luck...

Okay, it's CGI, which I did NOT get from the title image.

Mmm. First episode. A few promising moments, a fat load of clumsy exposition (it feels a bit rushed), but... Main character Seiya is not unlikable. I have to give him soem props form using "get bent" and "fricking" a fair bit, which is not what I was expecting out of the show - also, people actually beign shot (albiet bloodlessly) with actual bullets and such.

Howevrer, show, callign your magic power "cosmo" is just... No. I can't take it seriously, especially when your utter th phrase "you have cosmo inside you," which is frankly not something you want to hear unless directed at Wanda, caught in flagranti delicto...

(This is going to a case of Pokémon XY's "giant rock" a name so stupid it actively undermines the seriousness of what it is, isn't it?)

And we're just going to gloss over that at the end of the episode, he straight-up kills a dude by blowing his apache up, are we?

It's not... Terrible? It might be a little banal, but we'll see how it plays out. It seems to have some potential, it just is a little... Clumsy, I think is the best way to describe it.




I hope Chuck doesn't get black listed for Nanoha because while it is probably a good show overall, the first season is pretty grossly fanservice-y. Which is bad when your protagonist is sub 12 years old, but not unexpected when your protagonist is from a bonus disc from an Eroge game. Also, truth be told... there's a lot of good stuff in season 1 of Nanoha, but it kinda ****ing sucked. If that makes sense. It was GOOD, but badly.

Are you watching the CG version of Saint Seiya or the animated one?

[Aotrs Commander]

Yo excuse me Fire Force is a 24 episode season?

What the hell??? That feels so weird.

Astra Lost In Space is so, so very good. That and Fire Force is the only series I'm really watching now that Jojo is over for the year. Me and a friend gave Cop Craft a try and it was... to put it mildly, "I'm mad this has interesting ideas because it was awful".



I hope Chuck doesn't get black listed for Nanoha because while it is probably a good show overall, the first season is pretty grossly fanservice-y. Which is bad when your protagonist is sub 12 years old, but not unexpected when your protagonist is from a bonus disc from an Eroge game. Also, truth be told... there's a lot of good stuff in season 1 of Nanoha, but it kinda ****ing sucked. If that makes sense. It was GOOD, but badly.

Are you watching the CG version of Saint Seiya or the animated one?

CG, apparently (see edit...!)


Okay, so any potential that it had in epsidoe one?

Gone by episode two.

PACING!

It has none.


So, in order to explain this, I need to step back a moment, and talk about episode one a bit.

Starts out with a Seiya and his sister getting their house broken into by armed soldiers who want to kidnap her and come within a hairs breadth of shootign Seiya straight dead in the head until some dude in gold armour comes along, knobbles themn, blows of a helicopter and then sods off with the sister.

Cut to presumably some time later (no dialogue or text to say when) and Seiya is skating down the street, breaks up a street gang mugging a guy, gets mugged himself and then Shows Superpowers all over the internet. He goes home to the orphanage. We hear, but do not see, the other kids at the orphan (through a door) saying how frightened they are that Seiya lives with them (so the gang guy has totally doxxed Seiya). Sieua is pre-empatorily kidnapped and chloroformed.

He wakes up in nthe room of a dude and his grandaughter and we get a big long exposition dump. Basically war between Athena and Posiden and one of the other gods ever few centuris for some reason, esposition dude and Bad Guy found a dying knight carrying a baby, exposition dude wanted to protect baby and armour, Bad guiy wants to use it to fight the gods himseklf and take theit power but doesn't believe in knights (despite being show this telepathically) and the dying knight was hiding the baby from Sanctuary which is like the knight people or something because we're not really told why (but from the opening exposition dump narration it because Bad Prophecy) and he tells Seiya he's the pegasus to go train on some island to become kinight because that was the klast place his sister was seen before being taken to Sanctuary the secret place.

Bad guy then attacks and grandaughter and Seiya and her body gautd Do A Cahse sequence that ends with Seiya actvating his powrr and blowin' up the aforemention helicopter adn then seeing granddaughter and body guard vanishing behind a waterfall and leaving him behind. End episod with bad guy telling his minions to find the pegasus.



Okay.

So none of this is utterly disjointed, but the warning signs are there.

Episode two opens with Sieya apparently just being at this island. Two knight dudes have grabbed him and demand to know what he's doing there (their security must be amazing, as he's like, right in the middle of the village or something). He says he wants to be a knight, and they say he'll never survive the training, so they'll beat him to death so save him the effort. Our... Heroes...? Then a lady in a metal mask without eye holes and who has the exact same colour hair and hair style as Seiya's )older) sister comes by and is prepared to let them do it until she hears him say his name, whereupon she agrees to train him.

Next scene, a claditorial arena and a dude going "Seiya, you and this mook have beaten 998 other competitors to claim this armour."

Wait, that FRACK? Um, did we skip an episode or several in the middle of this episode?

Seriously, no "several months later" or anything, Seiya doesn't look any different apart he's wearing different clothes. Seiya beats this guy after some boringly cliché dialogue (any of the minor wit from episode one has gone) - with flashbacks to not-the-sister spiutong off trainign nonsense - and this fracks off mook's teacher so much that she plans to kill Seiya pretty much as soo n as they have left the arena.

I should take a moment to point out that both this character and the clearly-not-the-sister are the only aduly females we have seen, and both of them are wearing what I can only describe as... boob bosses, which is like a metal shield boss on their otherwise apparently leather (?) armour. No, i am not an expertm but that strikes me as... Both weird and probably remarkably uncomfortable.

The fight sequences are kind of naff as well, relying too much on stock footage. (Also, everyone's hair is made of plastic. Dragon Race to the Edge this is not. (Hell , this isn't even The Deep...))

Seiya shouts "you've always hated me, other teacher!" She HAS? Well, perhaps maybe, I dunno, SHOW of of this? Any of this?

So he beats her because, she goes off swearing revenge, Not-the-sister says he won't find his sister at Sanctuary (I mean, DUH), but sends him to fight in an unsanctioned tornament. And says one day his sister will find him. Uhuh.

Next scene, Seiya is waloinjg through the desert and finds a storm drain beneath which the tornament is taking place.

Again no transition, no nothing jsut boom, we're there.

Turns out the tornament was organised by exposition man, grandaughter. Which we know because Seiya look at this older girl and says "you're the granddaughter, you ditched me when I was twelve!"

Uh... Wut.

So he was twelve then, and so isn't now, which would imply a time skip of sort ;longer than one might have expoected since he LITERALLY HASN'T CHANGED AT ALL from his purportedly twelve-year-old-model aside from the change of clothes. Naruto Shippuden this is not.

The rest of the episode is the start of the tornament arc, ending with some guy called Signum Magnus leaping to kill granddaughter on the behest of Santuary.

And I am done. For a show with such a lot of tell and not show, it's still clear as fracking mud what's going on. Are the knights associated with Sanctuary? If so, why doens no-one know where sanctuary is? Does this mean there are, like, three sets of bad guys?

The total lack of any transitions though makes it clear the shpow has NO FRACKING CLUE about pacing. It is tearing along at a fair rate, yes, but where it is going is not impressive.

We know FRACK ALL about the characters of anyone we see, not even a lot about Seiya himself, other than he is a Good-ish Boy who picks up his litter. Not ecven a training montage, but a scene skip for a big timeskip that clearly had some importance. Does he knoiw ahny of the other knights in this tornament? Did he make no friends during his off-screen training? We have no idea.

The show seems hell-bent on getting to "The Good Bit" (which isn't even good) at the expense of utterly everything else, but that means nothing has any importance because there's no reason to care, because we are only told in the moment "this person is important now."



In conclusion: Arbitatary See If Bleakbane Can Stand More Than Two Episodes Anime Theatre: Knight of the Zodiac: Saint Seiya: Fail.

[LaZodiac]

In defense of Saint Seiya as like, a franchise; the CG anime they did for Netflix is ****ing garbage. The original series is good! It's just old!

[GloatingSwine]

I hope Chuck doesn't get black listed for Nanoha because while it is probably a good show overall, the first season is pretty grossly fanservice-y. Which is bad when your protagonist is sub 12 years old, but not unexpected when your protagonist is from a bonus disc from an Eroge game. Also, truth be told... there's a lot of good stuff in season 1 of Nanoha, but it kinda ****ing sucked. If that makes sense. It was GOOD, but badly.

More specifically, the first four episodes are kind of bad.

Amazon appears to have lost their copies of all the Nanoha stuff, which is annoying because they had the only legit way to watch StrikerS in English, and it all used to be on Prime.

[Aotrs Commander]

In defense of Saint Seiya as like, a franchise; the CG anime they did for Netflix is ****ing garbage. The original series is good! It's just old!

Clearly.



Chuck actually managed to cut around the review without anything... Dodgy?

And his reactions to a) Yuuno and b) said transformations were fricking priceless.




More specifically, the first four episodes are kind of bad.

Amazon appears to have lost their copies of all the Nanoha stuff, which is annoying because they had the only legit way to watch StrikerS in English, and it all used to be on Prime.

There was an English StrikerS dub?

FRAGDAMMIT!

(Edit, nah, it appears it was subbed on Amazon - still, dammit, though.)



(Nanoha was one of very few anime I watched in Sub first (on the net) and then I got the DVDs in English for the first two series. It remains stuck in my craw that I have not been able to find StrikerS on DVD (or otherwise), pretty much period.)

[GloatingSwine]

There was an English StrikerS dub?


No, sub only, but they did have the DVD version of StrikerS (there are minor animation upgrades in the DVD version) which has as far as I am aware never been officially available in any form ouside of Japan otherwise.

They had Vivid and Vivid Strike as well.

It still all shows up if you do a search (Prime is terrible for finding stuff, there's loads of things they have but you'd never know it if you don't know to search for it), it just isn't available to watch any more.

I'm p. sure they had redone subs on the first series as well, because the ones on the DVD I have are quite bad (they originally used the fansub name for Raising Heart and swapped to the real one 2/3 of the way through the series without going back and correcting the first two discs).

[LaZodiac]

Chuck actually managed to cut around the review without anything... Dodgy?

And his reactions to a) Yuuno and b) said transformations were fricking priceless.


Given he cut his anime teeth on Mahoromatic and absolute garbage moon priest mecha show, I'm not surprised at him being skilled at that.

I should watch the video when I get home, I liked Nanoha despite every attempt at it to not be likable.

[Excession]

Astra Lost In Space is so, so very good. That and Fire Force is the only series I'm really watching now that Jojo is over for the year. Me and a friend gave Cop Craft a try and it was... to put it mildly, "I'm mad this has interesting ideas because it was awful".

Weird, I find myself being the other way around on Astra and Cop Craft. I can see what's attractive in Astra, but the science is just so frequently terrible and the pacing seems all wrong. Then the only interesting plot point......that one of them is a traitor is just pushed aside for more questionable science of development of characters I find myself not really caring about.

Cop Craft may just tick all the right boxes for my. Fish out of water, buddy cop, bad cop worse cop (seriously Telarna is a hilariously terrible law enforcer), that I'm willing to give it a pass on shaky animation and weird pacing. Maybe I was just never expecting it to be better than Bad Boys or Lethal Weapon so it didn't disappoint me.

Watched a few episodes of Demon Slayer, ended up hating it. Like, does the main character ever get any agency? If he does, does it get immediately ret-conned away again?

In catching up on old anime, I watched Kill la Kill. I'm not really sure what that was, but I think I enjoyed it.

[LaZodiac]

Weird, I find myself being the other way around on Astra and Cop Craft. I can see what's attractive in Astra, but the science is just so frequently terrible and the pacing seems all wrong. Then the only interesting plot point......that one of them is a traitor is just pushed aside for more questionable science of development of characters I find myself not really caring about.

Cop Craft may just tick all the right boxes for my. Fish out of water, buddy cop, bad cop worse cop (seriously Telarna is a hilariously terrible law enforcer), that I'm willing to give it a pass on shaky animation and weird pacing.

And don't get me started on Demon Slayer. Like, does the main character ever get any agency? If he does, does it get immediately ret-conned away again?

What about the science in Astra is bad? It... doesn't seem incorrect at all beyond having the occasional "hey this is a super high tech future setting" moment? And you not liking the characters is fine, but the entire point of the series is getting to learn about and like the characters since that's kind of literally the premise. That's less a failing on the show and more of a "it's not a show you'll enjoy" thing. As for that spoiler...; I haven't read the manga, but I know that plot point is always relevant since it's a hanging guillotine over the entire crew. Who of these characters that we'll learn to like is secretly the saboteur? I think it's really neat!

Cop Craft leans on the "yeah I can't stand this" side of things. It tries to be interesting, but just... isn't quite there. Still better than Bright.

Nope. Not ever. Still more agency than his non-character sister. I hate Demon Slayer so god damn much I read like 70 chapters of it (the entire anime currently out) and it's so ****ing boring what the hell why is it so well liked when it's just this banal and lifeless? Can't even say it's the anime's fault for being beautifully animated because it was a thing way after the manga got super popular for no conceivable reason found.

Kill la Kill is a great series on the caveat that you have to endure a lot of awful stuff that may ruin the message it would otherwise have.

[Excession]

What about the science in Astra is bad? It... doesn't seem incorrect at all beyond having the occasional "hey this is a super high tech future setting" moment? And you not liking the characters is fine, but the entire point of the series is getting to learn about and like the characters since that's kind of literally the premise. That's less a failing on the show and more of a "it's not a show you'll enjoy" thing.

First episode: they have a winch, right? Why did they need the human chain when they could just reel that in again and throw them a line? It's like the winch just disappeared between one scene and the next.

Then there's the topic of food. Sticking anything from an alien biosphere in your mouth is terminally stupid. It could be using arsenic rather than phosphorus for just one example, let alone the very high chance of completely incompatible proteins that will be either indigestible or outright poisonous, or the 50/50 chance of getting the wrong isomer of just about everything. Alien pathogens may be less of a problem because they're not evolved to attack human life at all, but amoebic meningitis isn't caused by something that wants to infect humans either. Sure, they make a device that tests for all this, but they do that after eating some of it.

Maybe I should forgive the single-biome worlds, but I this point I feel like being picky.

[LaZodiac]

First episode: they have a winch, right? Why did they need the human chain when they could just reel that in again and throw them a line? It's like the winch just disappeared between one scene and the next.

Then there's the topic of food. Sticking anything from an alien biosphere in your mouth is terminally stupid. It could be using arsenic rather than phosphorus for just one example, let alone the very high chance of completely incompatible proteins that will be either indigestible or outright poisonous, or the 50/50 chance of getting the wrong isomer of just about everything. Alien pathogens may be less of a problem because they're not evolved to attack human life at all, but amoebic meningitis isn't caused by something that wants to infect humans either. Sure, they make a device that tests for all this, but they do that after eating some of it.

Maybe I should forgive the single-biome worlds, but I this point I feel like being picky.

Regarding the winch, they would have had to reel that entire thing back in. It'd also be sort of impossible to throw it out to them given how space works, but with the human chain and their boosters to assist, they can maneuver to get to Kanata and Aries. Also it's symbolic and dramatic, so I like it. Also not to be nitpicky myself but when I heard "science complaints" I didn't think "they could have used a winch cable instead of anything else". That feels... very low science to me :smalltongue:

To be fair their teenagers. They're actually just stupid. That's allowed to be a plot point; they got lucky with the food on their first planet and Zack made his food taster to help them scan for stuff so they don't get their asses killed. And for what it's worth they do encounter problems like this and are like "hm we should be smarter about this" because basically almost all of them die in the latest episode because they forgot other planets can be hostile in subtle ways.

I'd argue they only appear to be single-biome worlds because they land in the most habital place their scanners say to.

[Excession]

Regarding the winch, they would have had to reel that entire thing back in. It'd also be sort of impossible to throw it out to them given how space works, but with the human chain and their boosters to assist, they can maneuver to get to Kanata and Aries. Also it's symbolic and dramatic, so I like it. Also not to be nitpicky myself but when I heard "science complaints" I didn't think "they could have used a winch cable instead of anything else". That feels... very low science to me :smalltongue:

Physics is still science, or maybe it's an engineering problem. I could accept that moving the winch line would be really hard, but why not even mention that?

Like why they didn't just move the ship, or re-fuel one of the suits, or why they're all conveniently out of fuel anyway when they don't need to constantly accelerate to cross the few hundred metres to the ship. Yeah, it's symbolic and dramatic, but it felt to me like whole scene was railroaded into that purpose and that solution, rather than having it emerge as a natural consequence.


And for what it's worth they do encounter problems like this and are like "hm we should be smarter about this" because basically almost all of them die in the latest episode because they forgot other planets can be hostile in subtle ways.
Why does a toxin that evolved for an alien biosphere even affect humans though? And in exactly the way it's designed to work on the native life? If they'd even mentioned that they were going to the only planets where surveys had shown a compatible biosphere I would be happier about all this.

[LaZodiac]

Physics is still science, or maybe it's an engineering problem. I could accept that moving the winch line would be really hard, but why not even mention that?

Like why they didn't just move the ship, or re-fuel one of the suits, or why they're all conveniently out of fuel anyway when they don't need to constantly accelerate to cross the few hundred metres to the ship. Yeah, it's symbolic and dramatic, but it felt to me like whole scene was railroaded into that purpose and that solution, rather than having it emerge as a natural consequence.


Why does a toxin that evolved for an alien biosphere even affect humans though? And in exactly the way it's designed to work on the native life? If they'd even mentioned that they were going to the only planets where surveys had shown a compatible biosphere I would be happier about all this.

It's more an engineering problem, but also it's important to note that given Kanata's positioning, just throwing out a singular line would be too risky. He might miss it. By having a far more controllable human chain, it's easier to ensure he gets caught. Also the suit's likely use internal oxygen vents to propel themselves, given the effect that happens when tehy use them, so the suits having fuel makes sense.

The ship was not currently functioning or ready for movement just yet, so they couldn't have moved it. Everyone still on the ship had thruster fuel left, but they couldn't very well go out and try to grab him themselves. Taht's one single person trying to hit one single person in space, like two meteorites crashing. It'd be more effective to create a sort of aware "arm" that can manouver with thrusters to go grab him once he's within range, which you know when and where will happen due to space math. Which is what they did.

I do definitely understand what you mean, I just don't think it's bad science.

As for the planet's alien toxins ****ing with people... here's the thing. It's REALLY unclear just how uncharted these planets even are, given they have names. So, ignoring the in game explanation Zack gives for a moment, I want to make a note of how, assuming life on these planets is carbon based like ours, even if the viruses ARE uniquely evolved due to the different environment, they'd still affect us as normal because we're both carbon-based life and thus can interact. It's actually a thing where moon rocks and Mars rocks are treated carefully since they COULD have ancient germs fossilized in them that could revive and **** us all up. IT's not impossible for the alien evironment to hurt us.

But, let's back up a bit to what Zack said. Which... is EXACTLY what you said you wish he said. Zack plotted a route through all of space and they found the ONLY planets within range of each other that have livable by humans biomes, and are beelineing straight to them after getting enough food at bare minimum to make it. So yeah, they are definitely actually doing that exact thing, explicitly.

[Excession]

...assuming life on these planets is carbon based like ours, even if the viruses ARE uniquely evolved due to the different environment, they'd still affect us as normal because we're both carbon-based life and thus can interact. It's actually a thing where moon rocks and Mars rocks are treated carefully since they COULD have ancient germs fossilized in them that could revive and **** us all up. IT's not impossible for the alien evironment to hurt us.
That's not how viruses work at all. Very few viruses are capable of jumping between even two similar species on Earth. Pathogens tend to be very specific for what they can infect. I don't think what they ran into was a virus though, but a toxin, and one that had evolved into a very specific pattern with the local wildlife. The chances of that toxin having the same effect on alien life is quite small. I think it's more likely to be either instantly lethal because we haven't evolved the defences against that local life has, or it will do little or nothing because our biology isn't compatible. Even just between mammals, chocolate can kill dogs but we eat it for fun. Even a simple poison like cyanide might do nothing to an alien that used different chemicals for transporting oxygen in their equivalent of blood.

An alien environment can easily harm us, but more likely from just having incompatible proteins or elements than by something intentional.

The moon rock thing was just an over-abundance of caution, but harmless (except for astronauts being locked in a small room for a week) and worth doing just in case.


But, let's back up a bit to what Zack said. Which... is EXACTLY what you said you wish he said. Zack plotted a route through all of space and they found the ONLY planets within range of each other that have livable by humans biomes, and are beelineing straight to them after getting enough food at bare minimum to make it. So yeah, they are definitely actually doing that exact thing, explicitly.
I remember them saying something like "these are the planets we can use" but nothing about why. Maybe I missed that, but in general I think I want more of the why than can fit in a 20 minute episode.

[Pendulous]

Between Dr. Stone and Lost in Space, I don't really care if the science isn't exactly perfect (though Stone probably has less excuse for being wrong, as a whole lot of it hinges on all of it being accurate). I just care about being entertained. If I had to spend minutes looking up a particular thing just to know that that thing isn't scientifically accurate, that's not really gonna affect how I view the show.

Speaking of Demon Slayer, I am not watching it (and likely won't ever), but I am already annoyed at everybody who is. Apparently episode 19 is the greatest piece of work in anime ever, or something, because that's all anyone is talking about. I somehow doubt that is actually the case.

[Rynjin]

Why do you need to be annoyed at people because they're enjoying something?

[LaZodiac]

Speaking of Demon Slayer, I am not watching it (and likely won't ever), but I am already annoyed at everybody who is. Apparently episode 19 is the greatest piece of work in anime ever, or something, because that's all anyone is talking about. I somehow doubt that is actually the case.

It is very beautifully animated.

Not one single ****ing thing other than that is actually good though.

[John Cribati]

Why do you need to be annoyed at people because they're enjoying something?

Not because they're enjoying something so much as how muvh they're hyping it up, I'd guess. Same as how everyone went insane for the first episode of Goblin Slayer because the violent imagery and the brutal rape scene "added a dose of realism to the standard fantasy world" or "showed how high the stakes are," or some nonsense like that. Even though I'm that first episode was essentially clickbait and nothing that violent or brutal ever really happens after that.

[Mystic Muse]

While I can't say one thing or another about Demon Slayer specifically, I can speak from experience when saying it's quite obnoxious to hear people talk about virtues a piece of media simply doesn't have even when it's something you like.

[LaZodiac]

Not because they're enjoying something so much as how muvh they're hyping it up, I'd guess. Same as how everyone went insane for the first episode of Goblin Slayer because the violent imagery and the brutal rape scene "added a dose of realism to the standard fantasy world" or "showed how high the stakes are," or some nonsense like that. Even though I'm that first episode was essentially clickbait and nothing that violent or brutal ever really happens after that.

Not AS dramatic, but there are other garbage ass scenes like that in other parts of the series. But we're not getting into that discussion today.

[John Cribati]

Like to me it sounds like a bunch of people saw something included for shock value and somehow managed to ascribe some kind of deeper meaning to it. Happens all the time. Is still annoying.

[LaZodiac]

Like to me it sounds like a bunch of people saw something included for shock value and somehow managed to ascribe some kind of deeper meaning to it. Happens all the time. Is still annoying.

Oh yeah no you're not wrong. The people who are into Goblin Slayer come in two groups.

{Scrubbed}

[gomipile]

Oh yeah no you're not wrong. The people who are into Goblin Slayer come in two groups.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Oh?

I like the characters and the way they interact with each other. My two favorite scenes are the ice cream scene in Water Town, and the scene in the penultimate episode of season one where the guild members decide to help Goblin Slayer. I also liked the short arc with the newbies who lost a sword while killing rats in the sewers.

To me, the fantastic elements are a backdrop that informs the characters. I'm there for character moments between those characters.


Which of your two categories does that put me in?