Whirling Blade Shenanigry

[PraxisVetli]

1. Would a +1 Aptitude weapon with Chakram Ricochet and a Sculpt Spell Whirling Blade to be a 20' Radius allow me to hit all enemies in the Whirling Blade's radius twice?
2. And if I had Iajutsu damage, if applicable, would it proc on each enemy both times?

Sculpt Spell:
Prerequisite: Any metamagic feat.
Benefit: You can modify an area spell by changing the area's shape to either a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), a 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, a ball (20-foot-radius spread), or a 120-foot line. The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but affects a 20-foot-radius spread.
A sculpted spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Whirling Blade:
Transmutation
Level: Bard 2, Sorcerer 2, Wizard 2,
Components: V, S, AF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Effect: 60-ft. line
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You hurl a weapon held at the time of casting, and it magically attacks all enemies along a line to the extent of the spell's range. You make a normal melee attack, just as if you were attacking with the weapon in melee, against each foe in the weapon's path, but you can choose to substitute your Intelligence modifier or your Charisma modifier (as appropriate for your spellcasting class) for your Strength modifier on the weapon's attack rolls and damage rolls. Even if your base attack bonus would normally give you multiple attacks, a whirling blade gets only one attack (at your best attack bonus) against each target. The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores or feats.

No matter how many targets your weapon hits or misses, it instantly and unerringly returns to your hand after attempting the last of its attacks.

Chakram Ricochet:
Prerequisite: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1, proficient with chakram.
Benefit: If you hit a creature with a thrown chakram, you can cause it to ricochet and strike a secondary target in an adjacent square (within 5 feet of the primary target). You immediately make an attack roll against the secondary target, at a -2 penalty. If the attack hits, you deal damage normally.
Special: A rogue with Chakram Ricochet can deal sneak attack damage to both targets if they are within 30 feet and denied their Dexterity bonus to AC.

[MisterKaws]

1. Would a +1 Aptitude weapon with Chakram Ricochet and a Sculpt Spell Whirling Blade to be a 20' Radius allow me to hit all enemies in the Whirling Blade's radius twice?
2. And if I had Iajutsu damage, if applicable, would it proc on each enemy both times?

Sculpt Spell:
Prerequisite: Any metamagic feat.
Benefit: You can modify an area spell by changing the area's shape to either a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), a 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, a ball (20-foot-radius spread), or a 120-foot line. The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but affects a 20-foot-radius spread.
A sculpted spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Whirling Blade:
Transmutation
Level: Bard 2, Sorcerer 2, Wizard 2,
Components: V, S, AF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Effect: 60-ft. line
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You hurl a weapon held at the time of casting, and it magically attacks all enemies along a line to the extent of the spell's range. You make a normal melee attack, just as if you were attacking with the weapon in melee, against each foe in the weapon's path, but you can choose to substitute your Intelligence modifier or your Charisma modifier (as appropriate for your spellcasting class) for your Strength modifier on the weapon's attack rolls and damage rolls. Even if your base attack bonus would normally give you multiple attacks, a whirling blade gets only one attack (at your best attack bonus) against each target. The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores or feats.

No matter how many targets your weapon hits or misses, it instantly and unerringly returns to your hand after attempting the last of its attacks.

Chakram Ricochet:
Prerequisite: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1, proficient with chakram.
Benefit: If you hit a creature with a thrown chakram, you can cause it to ricochet and strike a secondary target in an adjacent square (within 5 feet of the primary target). You immediately make an attack roll against the secondary target, at a -2 penalty. If the attack hits, you deal damage normally.
Special: A rogue with Chakram Ricochet can deal sneak attack damage to both targets if they are within 30 feet and denied their Dexterity bonus to AC.

I guess it depends on your DM but sounds fine. Iaijutsu is precision, though, so only the first target.

[PraxisVetli]

I guess it depends on your DM but sounds fine. Iaijutsu is precision, though, so only the first target.

It wouldn't proc from them being flat-footed (assuming they are).
The Special on Chakram Ricochet allows Sneak Attack on multiple, so long as they're within the 30', and that's also precision damage, isn't it?
First time interacting with IF so I want to be sure.

[MisterKaws]

It wouldn't proc from them being flat-footed (assuming they are).
The Special on Chakram Ricochet allows Sneak Attack on multiple, so long as they're within the 30', and that's also precision damage, isn't it?
First time interacting with IF so I want to be sure.

The Chakram Ricochet would allow you to do a second Iaijutsu attack to the target who took the ricochet from the first, but that's it.

[PraxisVetli]

The Chakram Ricochet would allow you to do a second Iaijutsu attack to the target who took the ricochet from the first, but that's it.

Because I didn't re-draw my weapon, correct?

[MisterKaws]

Because I didn't re-draw my weapon, correct?

No. You could in fact do multiple Iaijutsu Focus attacks at once with Greater Manyshot... If you somehow found a way to use Iaijutsu Focus with a bow.

Maybe use a third arm from any number of sources, draw a melee weapon, and then immediately shoot.

Though that approach would indeed get a Iaijutsu Manyshot of Books on your head.

[PraxisVetli]

No. You could in fact do multiple Iaijutsu Focus attacks at once with Greater Manyshot... If you somehow found a way to use Iaijutsu Focus with a bow.

Maybe use a third arm from any number of sources, draw a melee weapon, and then immediately shoot.

Though that approach would indeed get a Iaijutsu Manyshot of Books on your head.

I'm not real keen on dodging books. Thanks though, for your assistance!

Sidenote, I bet you could if you put a bayonet on that bow.
Then it's a melee weapon. Or at least enough for RAW.
Still probably dodging books though

[Requiem_Jeer]

You can't use thrown weapon tech with whirling blade because whirling blade works like a melee attack.

The fact that you've allowed aptitude to change the weapon type (already a dodgy interpretation) doesn't change the fact that you're not throwing it.

[Troacctid]

It's also not compatible with Sculpt Spell because it's not an area, it's an effect.

[PraxisVetli]

It's also not compatible with Sculpt Spell because it's not an area, it's an effect.

You know, I never caught that.
However, my DM, in their grace, has decided to let that fly.

Explains a lot though, I was amazed I'd never seen Sculpted Whirling Blade mentioned before, considering how useful it could be.

[Vaern]

It's debatable whether an aptitude weapon would allow you to use anything other than a chakram with chakram ricochet.
An aptitude weapon gains the bonuses of feats that affect the use of a particular weapon such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like. These are feats that can be applied to all weapons but require that a particular weapon be chosen; an aptitude weapon is treated as though it was the chosen weapon type regardless of its actual type. In other words, if you have Weapon Focus (Longsword) and a +1 aptitude morningstar, you gain the benefit of Weapon Focus as though you had chosen (Morningstar).
Chakram Ricochet applies only to chakrams. One who reads the feat in this way might argue that a +1 aptitude longsword cannot reasonably give you the bonus of Chakram Ricochet (Longsword) because that's simply not a choice that's available with the feat.

(although, I'm not sure where chakrams are from, but according to google they are a slashing melee/thrown weapon and would thus be a viable choice with whirling blade on their own)

[Venger]

no, this is what aptitude weapon is for, stuff like this, boomerang daze, etc.

chakram is from oriental adventures. it's not just from xena, it's a real weapon historically used in india.

[MisterKaws]

no, this is what aptitude weapon is for, stuff like this, boomerang daze, etc.

chakram is from oriental adventures. it's not just from xena, it's a real weapon historically used in india.

No, vaern's technically right.

But that's no fun so everyone extrapolates the RAW.

[daremetoidareyo]

Earthbound spell (phb2) should allow you to sculpt spell. The area is an adjacent square...

Alternatively, glyph of warding (spell glyph) is sculptable.

[PraxisVetli]

It's debatable whether an aptitude weapon would allow you to use anything other than a chakram with chakram ricochet.
An aptitude weapon gains the bonuses of feats that affect the use of a particular weapon such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the like. These are feats that can be applied to all weapons but require that a particular weapon be chosen; an aptitude weapon is treated as though it was the chosen weapon type regardless of its actual type. In other words, if you have Weapon Focus (Longsword) and a +1 aptitude morningstar, you gain the benefit of Weapon Focus as though you had chosen (Morningstar).
Chakram Ricochet applies only to chakrams. One who reads the feat in this way might argue that a +1 aptitude longsword cannot reasonably give you the bonus of Chakram Ricochet (Longsword) because that's simply not a choice that's available with the feat.

(although, I'm not sure where chakrams are from, but according to google they are a slashing melee/thrown weapon and would thus be a viable choice with whirling blade on their own)

I don't know if it matters, but I'm technically using the Warblade ability, not the weapon enchant.
'You also have the flexibility to adjust your weapon training. Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus).'
That seems more in my favor?


no, this is what aptitude weapon is for, stuff like this, boomerang daze, etc.

chakram is from oriental adventures. it's not just from xena, it's a real weapon historically used in india.

And my table does lean towards Venger's assessment, just because it allows for some wonky combos that, while may be powerful, are more often than not simply cool.

[Troacctid]

I don't know if it matters, but I'm technically using the Warblade ability, not the weapon enchant.
'You also have the flexibility to adjust your weapon training. Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus).'
That seems more in my favor?
Less in your favor, actually, because it refers to the designation of a weapon; if the feat doesn't offer a choice of weapon, then there's nothing for you to re-designate.

[PraxisVetli]

Less in your favor, actually, because it refers to the designation of a weapon; if the feat doesn't offer a choice of weapon, then there's nothing for you to re-designate.

Does Chakram Ricochet not designate a chakram?
I don't understand what you're saying.
Wouldn't it just cause Chakram Ricochet to effectively say 'if you hit a creature with a thrown X weapon then...'
And Whirling Blade says 'you hurl your weapon.'
So I don't know why it doesn't work.
Not trying to be difficult, I just don't get it.

[SirNibbles]

Does Chakram Ricochet not designate a chakram?
I don't understand what you're saying.
Wouldn't it just cause Chakram Ricochet to effectively say 'if you hit a creature with a thrown X weapon then...'
And Whirling Blade says 'you hurl your weapon.'
So I don't know why it doesn't work.
Not trying to be difficult, I just don't get it.

Yes it works. As others have pointed out, it is technically not an area spell and thus not eligible for Sculpt, but the whole area vs effect thing is the result of bad writing on the part of WoTC. Also, Aptitude Weapons are pretty cheesy in my opinion.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Does Chakram Ricochet not designate a chakram? I don't understand what you're saying.
"Change the designated weapon" can be interpreted as "change to whatever, ignoring the feat restrictions" (as you are doing), but also as "re-pick the designation", in which case Chakram Ricochet is going to let you change it from chakram to chakram, nothing else. I personally favour the second interpretation, but RAW supports either.

Even if you got Sculpt Spell + whirling blade to work, and somehow got around the fact that you're not throwing your chakram (yes, you hurl it, but it subsequently attacks magically, and it's those attacks that actually hit your targets), Chakram Ricochet would still only allow you to attack an additional target within 5'. If your targets are all more than 5' apart, you would only be able to hit each target once.

Iaijutsu Focus is stupid enough to say "attack [...] immediately after drawing a melee weapon", without making any connection between that weapon and the attack, so yes, IF would work, and given that whirling blade says it attacks "instantly", you can definitely argue that all attacks are made "immediately after" your drawing of a melee weapon.

[PraxisVetli]

"
Even if you got Sculpt Spell + whirling blade to work, and somehow got around the fact that you're not throwing your chakram (yes, you hurl it, but it subsequently attacks magically, and it's those attacks that actually hit your targets), Chakram Ricochet would still only allow you to attack an additional target within 5'. If your targets are all more than 5' apart, you would only be able to hit each target once.


Would Widen Spell (again the whole are vs effect argument, but glossing) let me hit additional targets within 10'?


Ok so.
From what I'm gathering, aside from Sculpt Spell, the biggest problems are Aptitude and Iajutsu being 'immediately after you draw'.
So final verdict seems to be 'Yes, but it's cheesy as hell.'
Well this campaign we specifically were told to try cheesy things.
Honestly with the Artificer and the Wizard, this is not the cheesiest thing at the table.
And if it were, we're in Wisconsin here. If our D&D is super cheesy, we're into that.

[SirNibbles]

Would Widen Spell (again the whole are vs effect argument, but glossing) let me hit additional targets within 10'?


Ok so.
From what I'm gathering, aside from Sculpt Spell, the biggest problems are Aptitude and Iajutsu being 'immediately after you draw'.
So final verdict seems to be 'Yes, but it's cheesy as hell.'
Well this campaign we specifically were told to try cheesy things.
Honestly with the Artificer and the Wizard, this is not the cheesiest thing at the table.
And if it were, we're in Wisconsin here. If our D&D is super cheesy, we're into that.

No, Widen Spell, even if you treated the effect as an area, would not allow your ricochets to affect opponents 10 feet away.

It would increase the area of a spread to 40 feet, allowing you to affect more enemies.

Also, I missed the fact that you're using Warblade rather than the weapon enchantment. By RAW, it probably would not work for the reasons Troacctid stated. If your DM allows it, go for it.

[Vaern]

I don't know if it matters, but I'm technically using the Warblade ability, not the weapon enchant.
'You also have the flexibility to adjust your weapon training. Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus).'
That seems more in my favor?
Given that the aptitude weapon appears in the same book and shares its name with the class feature, I'd say that the aptitude weapon was meant to reflect the class feature's effect in the form of a weapon ability. The full description of the class feature only appears to reinforce the thought that it's meant to work with feats that are naturally able to be applied to any weapon but require that you select a single weapon type when you acquire the feat. But, if cheese is encouraged and your ultimate goal, everything becomes much more open to interpretation.

[PraxisVetli]

Given that the aptitude weapon appears in the same book and shares its name with the class feature, I'd say that the aptitude weapon was meant to reflect the class feature's effect in the form of a weapon ability. The full description of the class feature only appears to reinforce the thought that it's meant to work with feats that are naturally able to be applied to any weapon but require that you select a single weapon type when you acquire the feat. But, if cheese is encouraged and your ultimate goal, everything becomes much more open to interpretation.

I wouldn't say it's my ultimate goal so much as just this once, it's acceptable, so I'd like to get what I can out of it.
Though I gotta say, the looser interpretation of Aptitude isn't even really considered cheese by most people I've talked to. It's just how we thought it worked.
Now slapping it onto the Whirling Blade with the Chakram Ricochet, that's definitely cheesy.
But I've seen tons of builds with that enchant + feat combo.
Usually with shields, (so many Captains but no boats) but still.